Lets Chat: Idoneth Deepkin

[Barkanaut]

No idea if I want to go elite Ahkelian King Cavalry army or Morphan horde army. Morphan fits my lore better but I want to use terror cavalry and no Enclave does both.  Nothing stops me from taking both in an army, but ultimately its where the core focus of the army will be. What should I do. Normally I hate playing horde armies, but Morphan's fluff and theme is pretty cool. 

[DantePQ]

Volturnos item to igonre any spell on 3+ is huge, Changehost will have to waste a lot of resources to bring him down as he needs like 3 spells to kill reliably and every 2 of 3 spells will bounce off, also he support ID nicely (extra bravery, re-rolls of 1s). That's why for my starting army I'm thinking (and I will play in August anyway as I'm playing with DoK proxy army and hate this) 

Volturnos 

Soul Scryer 

Tidecaster + General + Born Again of Agany Trait (+2W) or Lord of the Storm and Sea (+2 Bravery to ID within 12'') + Abyssal Tides spell (cover for ID within 9'') 

Aspect of the Sea + Arcane Pearl (5++ against mortal wounds) + Tide of Fear (-1 to hit, -1 to bravery within 12'') 

30 Thralls 

2x10 Reavers 

6 Defensive Eeels 

2x5 Khinerai Heartrenders 

Ionarch Enclave 

I could swap Heartrenders for Morssar but with 6 Attacks per unit from riders they aren't that good even with 2 damage of turn we are talking about MAXIMUM 12 damage. 

Also I could swap one hero and Heartrenders for second 30 of Thralls but Reavers are better at sitting at objectives in your deployment zone, and with big blocks of Tharlls you can't leave 30 guys worth 360 points and easy to kill down with shooting/battleshock on objective + I love Reavers unit and this army don't need to be ultra competitive (as I gto DoK for that) but even in ultra comeptitive group and I play in on the first sight it's quite strong - magic, shooting, bodies, deepstrike possibility,great speed,  114 wounds isn't bad at all. I got Thralls as hammer unit, unfortunately you can't fit two aspects into one army as aspect of the storm is amazing melee machine with all those mechanics in place and I wouldn't be suprised to see some armies going two Tidecasters + Aspect for the Storm with Volturnos as he can really wreak havoc especially with Tides and his retreat&charge ability. Also he can kill as many units/targets as he can before he's dead. 

[syph0n]

2 hours ago, Barkanaut said:

No idea if I want to go elite Ahkelian King Cavalry army or Morphan horde army. Morphan fits my lore better but I want to use terror cavalry and no Enclave does both.  Nothing stops me from taking both in an army, but ultimately its where the core focus of the army will be. What should I do. Normally I hate playing horde armies, but Morphan's fluff and theme is pretty cool. 

I'm looking forward to properly reading the Battletome. I've got one cavalry army already, so going Thrall heavy and reviving might be more fun/varied. However, all that skin to paint.... 

[To1v1]

Does Volturnos buff namartti units or just eels??

[stratigo]

On 4/18/2018 at 3:49 AM, DantePQ said:

@stratigo

It doens't work that way, it as @Richelieu said it's about execution - you got to have enough targets to win with turn 3, against good player you won't be able to get much units (also deepkin are pretty elite so getting your units unharmed to turn 3 is quite a feat) into combat and as I am DoK player I would be more then happy to screen myself with Marty's Sacrifice buffed Buckers Witches - good luck with them with Deepkins. 

Sure Deepkin could have one close to unwinnable match up with DoT and hard with Clown Car. Against other armies like DoK, LoN it could be hard but winnable as it's down to postionioing, strategy and execution but Deepkin have obvious flaws your opponent can capitalise on. 

I still think 3x30 Thralls will be the best competitive build but as you got to take Aspect of the Sea with them there is little points left to work with  

Yeah sure if the ID player is a drooling moron, KO totally has a chance. Otherwise, no, KO loose. You have a fricken 140 point unrendable unit. That does enough damage in combat that I suspect a unit could, over the course of a game, kill an entire KO army.

[DantePQ]

Clearly you haven't played against skilled Clown Car player so why bother with such comments?

You can't deploy to shield everything against 6 eels, and even so with double second turn KO player annihilates most of the army. It isn't easy match up for KO and it isn't easy for ID as well. Sure you can build antiKO list but I am talking about all around competitive tournament builds and yes Clown Car could be very hard match up for ID. 

Comments that defensive eels could kill entire KO army without having rend and no cover save after charge is just pure comedy thanks for laugh ? 

[stratigo]

46 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Clearly you haven't played against skilled Clown Car player so why bother with such comments?

You can't deploy to shield everything against 6 eels, and even so with double second turn KO player annihilates most of the army. It isn't easy match up for KO and it isn't easy for ID as well. Sure you can build antiKO list but I am talking about all around competitive tournament builds and yes Clown Car could be very hard match up for ID. 

Comments that defensive eels could kill entire KO army without having rend and no cover save after charge is just pure comedy thanks for laugh ? 

As the clown car player, politely, bite me.

 

You clearly have never played KO since you seem to think they have the ability to be everywhere at once and attack everything. Here's a secret, KO have bad armor saves and few wounds for their point cost. You don't need rend to kill them. The highest you'll hit is 4 up, even for the big ship. Do some math. KO are a glass cannon army, except ID take away where you can target a good amount of that cannon. The defensive eels have a number of attacks that multi wound. If they charge, eg it's your turn, and you choose to go first (or its turn three), three of them beat 9 riggers. If the riggers charge, and thus get to go first, statistically, nine of them kill one. And three units will cover your entire army from everyone's shooting except maybe the rivet guns if you can finangle the snaking. And halfways competent player is gonna body block their character and big killers. Throwing riggers into thralls is a waste of an expensive unit to kill a much cheaper one. And you certainly don't want to do that. KO relies on, you know, having a shooting phase and having good high rend. Dictating who they shoot with most of their guns is, on its own, almost game winning. Forcing them to waste shots on an unrendable unit sitting on a 3 (or 2 up if you MS them) up turn one may as well tell KO they don't have a shooting phase the first turn. So it's all down to buzzsaws on the charge. But you can't clear any chaff because you're forced to shoot the closest enemy. The clown car doesn't move fast enough to get the riggers around flanks without the hooks (I can, using maximum shenannigans, go 24 inches a turn with a unit of riggers), which, if you knew KO, only happen at the end of the phase. So, any HVT you have will be protected by units I can't target. Unless you're just a bad player. And riggers are too expensive to waste killing a unit of 10 thralls. And they can't even kill the eels. The defensive eels beat the ****** out of them on terms of cost for kill. And If I try to delay engagement, well ID aren't slow and if I wait til turn 3, ID just beat any unit they touch. It is not a game KO can win against any halfways competent player.

 

The defensive eels are so mind boggingly cost effect against an army that relies on low number of high rend attacks that all sport an average to bad armor save. They are pretty much kharadron kryptonite. It isn't going to be enjoyable fighting a unit since KO can't tank them (KO can't tank), and can't kill them without investing exorbitant amounts of points into doing so. KO don't have Mortal Wound engines, they don't have units of 2 up or 3 up with rerolls to their saves and or save after saves. They lack anything that would be good at removing them.

[annarborhawk]

9 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

What do you guys think about 2 sea aspects? I know they’re expensive but those spells are all so good

Can't cast the same spell twice in matched play. So I don't see it. And that's 880 points for two double-casters.  Way too much invested in magic, IMO.  

[annarborhawk]

3 hours ago, To1v1 said:

Does Volturnos buff namartti units or just eels??

re-roll hits of 1 for Akhelion wholly within 18" - so eels, sharks, turtles, and kings.  That's his native ability.

His command ability of add 1 attacks to 3 units during High Tide - goes to all ID units.

 

That turn 3 with Volturnos as your general is going to be wild.  

EDIT:  I did some quick math. Two units of 3x Morrsarr buffed by Voltunos charging on turn 3 into a 4+ save target should do about 29 unsaved wounds. Make them from the Fuethan enclave and your looking at 31+  unsaved wounds. 

 

EDIT 2: interesting comparison. Two units of 3xIshlaen in those circumstances will do 16+ wounds.  (and then tarpit the target).  Think I'll be running a bit of both types of eels.

[Sactownbri]

2 hours ago, To1v1 said:

Does Volturnos buff namartti units or just eels??

If you are asking about his command ability, Supreme Lord of Tides, the warscroll says 3  ID wholly with 18”. That one isn’t specific to unit type.

[Sactownbri]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

As the clown car player, politely, bite me.

 

You clearly have never played KO since you seem to think they have the ability to be everywhere at once and attack everything. Here's a secret, KO have bad armor saves and few wounds for their point cost. You don't need rend to kill them. The highest you'll hit is 4 up, even for the big ship. Do some math. KO are a glass cannon army.

I also play KO. I think you are missing some of the rules, like Master of the Skies and Glory-seekers, that make KO shooting very reliable. Yes they evaporate fast to charges but they are very good with decapitating armies and very good with fast movement to grab objectives.  ID is going to make decapitation a challenge but isn’t that the point?

[DantePQ]

Also you can't screen whole army with 6-9 eels and Idoneth don't have chaff per se unless you treat Thralls as chaff. 

With double turn they could very well table Deepkin. I don't think it is lopsided match up. KO will be hard because of how clinical ID will have to deploy and far from auto win for ID. 

[mmimzie]

5 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Volturnos item to igonre any spell on 3+ is huge, Changehost will have to waste a lot of resources to bring him down as he needs like 3 spells to kill reliably and every 2 of 3 spells will bounce off, also he support ID nicely (extra bravery, re-rolls of 1s). That's why for my starting army I'm thinking (and I will play in August anyway as I'm playing with DoK proxy army and hate this) 

Volturnos 

Soul Scryer 

Tidecaster + General + Born Again of Agany Trait (+2W) or Lord of the Storm and Sea (+2 Bravery to ID within 12'') + Abyssal Tides spell (cover for ID within 9'') 

Aspect of the Sea + Arcane Pearl (5++ against mortal wounds) + Tide of Fear (-1 to hit, -1 to bravery within 12'') 

30 Thralls 

2x10 Reavers 

6 Defensive Eeels 

2x5 Khinerai Heartrenders 

Ionarch Enclave 

I could swap Heartrenders for Morssar but with 6 Attacks per unit from riders they aren't that good even with 2 damage of turn we are talking about MAXIMUM 12 damage. 

Also I could swap one hero and Heartrenders for second 30 of Thralls but Reavers are better at sitting at objectives in your deployment zone, and with big blocks of Tharlls you can't leave 30 guys worth 360 points and easy to kill down with shooting/battleshock on objective + I love Reavers unit and this army don't need to be ultra competitive (as I gto DoK for that) but even in ultra comeptitive group and I play in on the first sight it's quite strong - magic, shooting, bodies, deepstrike possibility,great speed,  114 wounds isn't bad at all. I got Thralls as hammer unit, unfortunately you can't fit two aspects into one army as aspect of the storm is amazing melee machine with all those mechanics in place and I wouldn't be suprised to see some armies going two Tidecasters + Aspect for the Storm with Volturnos as he can really wreak havoc especially with Tides and his retreat&charge ability. Also he can kill as many units/targets as he can before he's dead. 

Cool list though i'd sort of drop Vulturnous. He's not your general so he can't use his command ability which is the biggest reason to bring the guy. He's only going to be throwing reroll 1's to a small abck of defensive eels. the  + 1 bravery while it'll help your thralls and such out it's only +1 and the thralls will be under inspiring pressence all game <.<. 

From there volturnous isn't very killy. Hes less killy than a normal king that never gets to charge, but is charged. 

Then it's as you say his match up against change host. I actualy play change host in tournaments. I'm not the worlds best player, but i do have a higher than 80% win rateo n my change host in tournaments (whole events not games).  If i had to deal with vulturnous. I'd be so happy because he's not the kind of model i'd care about. His damage is low. As named character it won't be getting any better in deepkin due to not having an artifact or command trait. So, while maybe i'd struggle to snipe him out, i probaly wouldn't snipe it out at all. I'd just glue him up in the horde of models, and use my really effective mortal woulds on the defensive eels/thralls/tidecaster/khinari.  If i really need vultournus dead i'd summon in some flamer and then lop his head the rest of the way off with the LoC, and the flamers wouldn't care about the -1 to hit because they'd be summoned in and then shoot you straight off. Though that all depends on position etc, but despire positioning Change Host just doesn't care vulturnous is on the table at all. 

Then on the morsar. You discount the mounts which are no joke with 3+/3+  having a max or another 6  damage out put per guy, and the leader with +1 spear attack that's a max of 31 damage from that unit actualy. Come pare that to your khinari who max out at 10 with thier ranged attack or 20 if they get into melee <.<... for the same price point. Not to mention the mortal wound pulse you can do at the start of a combat phase should you need to. 

I actualy really like the list though.

That one pack of 30 thralls i think is the idea number of thralls if you are going to take them at all. Due to how much space they take up. If you dropped vulturnous off a cliff (lol <.< i think he wronged me in a past life). You could take the angerler and then you could actually try to out attrition the change host.  Even more so i believe you actualy have most of that namarti battalion, but i don't know how worth that battalion is for the points the battalion cost you could almost just bring another 10 thralls. 

Love the tidecaller general.  That said i don't think you need to go too hard on bravery boosting as you'll be inspiring pressencing the thralls all game???  However, maybe you want the bravery if your opponent decides they want to go first??? it's a conundrum. +2 wounds on the tidecaster though basicly need you need to cast another offensive spell on her to kill her with spells. Which is pretty big. I wouldn't take the cover spell. The cover is pretty good, but your not realisticly going to fit your thralls effenciently in a 9" circle. Not that i don't think they can do it, but more that you don't want em wrapped around like that.  from there you can get your heros in the circle, but most likely they'll be hard pressed to shoot your heros as you'd be screening them pretty hard with thralls and eels. Where in that case you could of just maybe casted mystic shield and gotten the same affect with out having to dog pile the tide caller. 

I actualy like the commitment to 20 reavers, and using them as your battle line. Thier damage output is bad, but against change host it works. Change host really care the most about shooting, and with a potential 60 shots coming out of that squad, you might beable to pick out a few key units. This another one of those positioning things, so you can only theory it so much. 

 

 

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

Also you can't screen whole army with 6-9 eels and Idoneth don't have chaff per se unless you treat Thralls as chaff. 

With double turn they could very well table Deepkin. I don't think it is lopsided match up. KO will be hard because of how clinical ID will have to deploy and far from auto win for ID. 

This is definitly quite true.  You can screen decently well and it will be trouble for KO. It won't be just a straight up cannon shot to the face that many armies have to deal with, but it will still hurt quite baddly. 

It's definitly no straight up win against KO, but it is more work for KO than they can normally get away with.  It's game basicly <.<, it requires playing to get the result. That said the KO to some good extent are relying on luck, as if they miss that double turn the KO will be in melee range and half thier stuff getting pretty locked up, to where angling to get shots will be more difficult. It'll come down to positioning on the side of both players, and if KO can pull the double turn.

Way i see the game playing out is the IDK player is going to corner themselves and clinch there sphincters.  As they want to make sure they can control where you can shoot, and what's getting shot at.  Then if the KO get the double it gets harder as you are also down your cover save unless your brought a turtle or that 9" cover spell (if you got it off)  and have your whole army hunkered under that.  Depending on what survives than you could potentially win. I think you need something alittle more than the Aspect of the sea + a king to get the job done. THe maelstorm spell on the aspect of the sea, and a king going in will do a number on the KO list. mainly because the maelstorm will hit alot of thier stuff, and they'll have to of been in range.  If the KO doesn't get the double, and didn't do enough damage on turn 1, you can smash them and it's over. 

[annarborhawk]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

Also you can't screen whole army with 6-9 eels 

 

9 eels deployed with their bases sideways I bet could  make about a 32" front.  If you wanted to do it, you could probably wrap the rest of your force with that.  You'd be compacted in the center, probably, but I guess it's an option to consider.

[mmimzie]

23 minutes ago, annarborhawk said:

9 eels deployed with their bases sideways I bet could  make about a 32" front.  If you wanted to do it, you could probably wrap the rest of your force with that.  You'd be compacted in the center, probably, but I guess it's an option to consider.

thats definitly an option. and 6 eels can actualy survive 2 turns of beating from KO with a 2+ save.  that 2+ save ignoring rend is really strong against KO as most of KO's weapons have rend. Remember against attacks with rend Defensive eels last longer than the same amount of points of vulkite. Start giving that mystic shield... and man that is a hardy unit. 

[corsairjoe]

For those of you that have gotten and read the book, what is your preference for the eel riders? Do you think spear or sword are better to build around?

[Knight of Ruin]

They both serve a different purpose .

 

The sword eels are excellent against units with rend. Dmg wise they dont put put as much dmg against higher save targets but ahainst low save single wound models they can be strong.

Spear eels are devastating pn the charge. They can deal decently with higher save opponents.. But really rely on getting the charge.

 

Generally i feel that if you want screeners or a tough battleline you take the sword eels.

 

But if you already have a leviadon (who can do similar things), or need a good counter charge or need a really hard hitting unit... Spear eels are by far better. 

[Drofnum]

45 minutes ago, Knight of Ruin said:

They both serve a different purpose .

 

The sword eels are excellent against units with rend. Dmg wise they dont put put as much dmg against higher save targets but ahainst low save single wound models they can be strong.

Spear eels are devastating pn the charge. They can deal decently with higher save opponents.. But really rely on getting the charge.

 

Generally i feel that if you want screeners or a tough battleline you take the sword eels.

 

But if you already have a leviadon (who can do similar things), or need a good counter charge or need a really hard hitting unit... Spear eels are by far better. 

I think you take both in most lists, the differences are pretty huge between the two units.  

[BillyOcean]

8 hours ago, mmimzie said:

I actualy like the commitment to 20 reavers

Me too! I actually prefer them to Thralls (controversial) and will probably run 2x10 in a lot of lists. They are not Eel-good but also not Shark-bad, just somewhere in between. Enough bodies to hold an objective while plinking off a few enemies, and super mobile to get to whichever objective they need to sit on. Also, pretty solid melee stats as far as shooting units go! 

[Knight of Ruin]

6 hours ago, Drofnum said:

I think you take both in most lists, the differences are pretty huge between the two units.  

Well if you go namarti/Isharann heavy, i'm not sure you have the points to take both, depeninding on the list ofcourse. But yeh, if you focus on the eels, take both.

[Sactownbri]

50 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

They are not Eel-good but also not Shark-bad, just somewhere in between.

Why is the shark bad? I don’t understand. I know it isn’t as points efficient as the eels but bad? Doesn’t compute. I’d take the shark over any other armies chariot. The only thing I would like to see is the Isharaan be able to take one as a mount.

[Sactownbri]

7 hours ago, corsairjoe said:

For those of you that have gotten and read the book, what is your preference for the eel riders? Do you think spear or sword are better to build around?

Both!

[stratigo]

What stings the most is that ID still don't look to overcome the tzeentch mortal wound engine.

[mmimzie]

4 hours ago, Knight of Ruin said:

Well if you go namarti/Isharann heavy, i'm not sure you have the points to take both, depeninding on the list ofcourse. But yeh, if you focus on the eels, take both.

I think if you aren't planning to an eel list than:

If you are going namarti heavy than spears would be your best bet. It gives your list alot more punch, and the shield eels are going to have a hard time  getting good coverage in front of all your thralls with out taking a massive 12 model unit.

If you are going her hammer with edolons and kings than the defensive eels are where it's at. As said units have smaller foot prints for the points and are much easier to fully screen. 

 

3 hours ago, stratigo said:

What stings the most is that ID still don't look to overcome the tzeentch mortal wound engine.

For the characters and such most definitly, but this is the case with most armies. That said all your characters have access to mortal wound save should you desire it, and the ship gives a 6+ save against everything??? Not to mention we do have our own wizard who can unbind spells. It's not gonna stop everything, but it's another road block an opponent must over come.  From there defensive eels are relatively safe being pretty  mortal wound cost affective at 12 wounds with a 6+ mortal wound save next to a ship. Also if your nervous about early mortal wound, from the videos we've heard the wording doesn't sound like it doesn't stack??? meaning potentialy if you put both your ships next toeach toher and put your units in the middle of both you could get 2 6+ mortal wound saves???? Not exactly sure if that works though :P. 

[Still-young]

7 hours ago, stratigo said:

What stings the most is that ID still don't look to overcome the tzeentch mortal wound engine.

Eh. I’d rather they toned Tzeentch down rather than new armies being better than it. That’s how you get codex creep.