Mayple Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 31 minutes ago, Double Misfire said: I think the argument for cleansing skaven is on a par with the one for cleansing skaven players: all "cleansing" involved should be of a purely genocidal bent. In all seriousness I've got no horse in this debate - it's your hobby, do what you want. I'm amazed nobody's mentioned Tergus of the Sainted Eye yet mind, he's a Hallowed Knights prosecutor prime who got hideously Curse of the Horned Rat'd protecting Alarielle in The Realmgate Wars: Quest for Ghal-Maraz, only to turn back up reforged and fully human-shaped again (presumably after having been mercifully hammered to death by his horrified comrades) in the Black Library novel Plague Garden. Both books are well worth checking out and probably the closest we'll get to any kind of good guy skaven. Curse of the horned rat'd by what (or whom?) if I may ask? sounds like an entertaining occurence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Misfire Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 28 minutes ago, Mayple said: Curse of the horned rat'd by what (or whom?) if I may ask? sounds like an entertaining occurence. A Grey Seer obsessed with vivisecting Stormcast to unlock their secrets (they were new on the scene at the time), who'd been taught the spell by a Verminlord Corruptor who was hellbent on Curse of the Horned Rating Alarielle herself (prior to her rebirth in her new model/war aspect) in order to take control of Ghyran from under Nurgle's nose. You should pick it up, it's a solid read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDuff Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Once a rat, always a rat. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjarni St. Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 delete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjarni St. Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 17 hours ago, Dez said: You'd have a better chance getting a Dwarf to an AA meeting! With enough fire you can cleanse anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperHappyTime Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 I don’t believe in the whole “You are the sins of your ancestors” thing, so I don’t see any reason to think you couldn’t raise a Skaven baby into Order. The question is why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester1487 Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 13 hours ago, Riavan said: I want to see a skaven stormcast model. Maybe get some of those multipart stormcast kits and put some shoulder pads on a rat ogre. New vermcast shiny priest. Picture a stormcast body with a rat head and mutton chops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menkeroth Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 50 minutes ago, SuperHappyTime said: I don’t believe in the whole “You are the sins of your ancestors” thing, so I don’t see any reason to think you couldn’t raise a Skaven baby into Order. It's like the "you can't see the Covenant elites from Halo but he is there (both because of his camouflage)". You can believe and see or not but it changes nothing. The reality differs from your vision quite drastically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AthlorianStoners Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Menkeroth said: It's like the "you can't see the Covenant elites from Halo but he is there (both because of his camouflage)". You can believe and see or not but it changes nothing. The reality differs from your vision quite drastically. Considering the huge nature of the Mortal Realms and the almost infinite possibilities therein, I don't think its at all an absolute that whats being discussed couldn't be true. If anyone put in enough time they could come up with a reasonable explanation for such an army to exist and I don't think anyone would complain. For instance, what if an Azyrite scientist had studied the Skaven for many years. Their ingenuity, adaptability and will to survive inspired him and he hoped to use those qualities within the race for good. Setting out to accomplish this goal, he stockpiled Azyrite and led many expeditions to study the Skaven and capture some specimens. Eventually he began breeding them, indoctrinating them from birth in the ways of Azyr, and introducing Azyrite into their food source. Eventually, the Skaven would become Beastmen of Order, just like we now have Daemons of order. With the way Skaven breed, new generations would come so rapidly that the changes would be very very apparent. I really don't think there is much in AoS that is absolute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menkeroth Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 21 hours ago, AthlorianStoners said: I really don't think there is much in AoS that is absolute. And then there is. There are absolute things because they are the paragons of the setting, it can not exist without them. And yes, your scientist will be burnt to ashes by the Order of Azyr, at least. Skaven are children of Chaos, their god is one of the Great Pantheon. It is unchangeable. All the other ratmen will be everything but Skaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeM Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 On 1/1/2018 at 10:57 PM, Kugane said: so perhaps something along the lines of a city of men being mutated? Isn't that how the Skaven came about? It's been a while since I read the "WA: Skaven", but I recall the cursed bell tolling 13 and then a whole city of men vanishing and it is implied that they were turned in to the Skaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 22 hours ago, Menkeroth said: And then there is. There are absolute things because they are the paragons of the setting, it can not exist without them. And yes, your scientist will be burnt to ashes by the Order of Azyr, at least. Skaven are children of Chaos, their god is one of the Great Pantheon. It is unchangeable. All the other ratmen will be everything but Skaven. Also it's fictional. The man has a cool idea for a conversion and wants some input for the backstory. It won't hurt anyone. And looking at his other treads inspire quite a lot of people. And although I agree that breaking certain paragons is bad storytelling but the motivations of your protagonist in an endless world is not one of them. Absolutes are absolutely destructive for discussions (see what I did there ). So keep an open mind and let other people have their fun. Or at least phrase it as your opinion. Because that's what it is... in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AthlorianStoners Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 On 05/01/2018 at 12:15 AM, Menkeroth said: And then there is. There are absolute things because they are the paragons of the setting, it can not exist without them. And yes, your scientist will be burnt to ashes by the Order of Azyr, at least. Skaven are children of Chaos, their god is one of the Great Pantheon. It is unchangeable. All the other ratmen will be everything but Skaven. I completely disagree, we’re talking about a player converting their own army in a fictional universe where the creators themselves have said fans have free reign to enjoy their hobby. If, I’m your opinion, this doesn’t gel with your view of the hobby that’s cool but it is only your opinion. There are very few great works of fiction that deal in absolutes and the open nature of AoS even furthers the ambiguity concerning what is and isn’t viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayple Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 6 hours ago, LeeM said: Isn't that how the Skaven came about? It's been a while since I read the "WA: Skaven", but I recall the cursed bell tolling 13 and then a whole city of men vanishing and it is implied that they were turned in to the Skaven. They were eaten by the Skaven. The dwarves were devoured first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menkeroth Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 2 hours ago, AthlorianStoners said: If, I’m your opinion, this doesn’t gel with your view of the hobby that’s cool but it is only your opinion. It's not. The idea is funny, the work could be amazing, but it is not Skaven by any means. Fluff is fluff, it's one of the absolute and unchangeable things unless GW say otherwise. If somebody does not agree it changes nothing. I am fine with the conversions, just don't call it Skaven. Skaven are specific ratmen, a special race of Chaos children. Nothing more, nothing less. All the other ratmen - why not. But not these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kugane Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 10 hours ago, LeeM said: Isn't that how the Skaven came about? It's been a while since I read the "WA: Skaven", but I recall the cursed bell tolling 13 and then a whole city of men vanishing and it is implied that they were turned in to the Skaven. I am not fully up to date on skaven lore myself (kind of why I turned to the forum with the question), but I do know that in age of sigmar there are various abilities that turn enemies into Skaven, so while it is true that most skaven come from broodmothers, I think a large ammount of them come from a human source. Its those previously human skaven that I'm actually really interrested in for a narrative/counts-as army. Right now I think the best army to fit into that category would be a free guild army, considering that clanrats and such can easily take freeguild guard spots. Another approach would be the 'rare' specimen approach, adding just a select few "converted" skaven into an army. Perhaps an assassin or something. A ratmen order conversion does seem to fall in bad taste with a lot of people I've discussed this with, so it pretty much narrows down if its worth it in the long run. There are quite a lot of lore purists it seems and it would suck to upset people irl over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FractalRain Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 As mentioned earlier, you could even just approach it as Skaven seeing Freeguild being successful and a warlord decide his clan was going to mimic Freeguild tactics etc to try and gain an edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kugane Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, FractalRain said: As mentioned earlier, you could even just approach it as Skaven seeing Freeguild being successful and a warlord decide his clan was going to mimic Freeguild tactics etc to try and gain an edge. Not a bad idea at all actually. I also was considering the fact that Skaven are self centred by nature. I think Skaven would do anything to save their own skin. So Order could even manipulate them in a "fight for me or die" fashion. I think, being cowards as they are, if their own life is at stake they'll probably do anything, regardless who is giving the orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AthlorianStoners Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 4 hours ago, Menkeroth said: It's not. The idea is funny, the work could be amazing, but it is not Skaven by any means. Fluff is fluff, it's one of the absolute and unchangeable things unless GW say otherwise. If somebody does not agree it changes nothing. I am fine with the conversions, just don't call it Skaven. Skaven are specific ratmen, a special race of Chaos children. Nothing more, nothing less. All the other ratmen - why not. But not these. Gonna leave it at this then, guess we just disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegisgrimm Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 People are forgetting, the real problem with raising some Skaven to be Order beastmen is that not only do they have a patron god, but one that since the End Times is much more powerful than in times before. The Horned Rat would interfere in such a plot to steal it's followers. Even Order-aligned Orcs and or Goblins would be more likely, as at least Gorkamorka was allied with Sigmar for a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VBS Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Skaven aren't evil, that's just what the Dictator of Azyrheim wants to make us believe. Seriously, I never approached Chaos and its Children as "evil" per se, but rather a manifestation of everything in the world, from nature to emotions and all.... which is, I think, how it is suppose to be in the nature of Chaos. Capable of the best and worst at the same time. I mean, yeah, sometimes the Dark Gods want to devour your soul (which sucks) but if you get to chill in the Realms of Chaos doesn't sound thaaat bad if your into sort of creepy and excessive stuff. If Skaven could be part of "Order"? Would make zero sense from an "official" fluff point of view, but the fluff is just a frame and the players do whatever the **** they want. It's always been like that with any fantasy game/world... it's faaaaantasy for a reason. My irrelevant 2 cent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayple Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 I mean. Skaven's main flavour thing is that they're all deplorable. Now whether they're deplorable rats fighting (for some deplorable reason) for the deplorable order, or the deplorable chaos - that's just deplorable. Deplorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menkeroth Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 6 hours ago, Aegisgrimm said: The Horned Rat would interfere in such a plot to steal it's followers. The Great Horned Rat, to be precise, one of the Four. And it's indeed powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeM Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 1/5/2018 at 4:19 PM, Mayple said: They were eaten by the Skaven. The dwarves were devoured first Ah man, I'm dusting off my Skaven book. And I now want to get assembling my IoB Skaven. Why did I have to chime in on this thread?! On 1/5/2018 at 8:14 PM, Kugane said: I am not fully up to date on skaven lore myself (kind of why I turned to the forum with the question), but I do know that in age of sigmar there are various abilities that turn enemies into Skaven, so while it is true that most skaven come from broodmothers, I think a large ammount of them come from a human source. Its those previously human skaven that I'm actually really interrested in for a narrative/counts-as army. Right now I think the best army to fit into that category would be a free guild army, considering that clanrats and such can easily take freeguild guard spots. Another approach would be the 'rare' specimen approach, adding just a select few "converted" skaven into an army. Perhaps an assassin or something. A ratmen order conversion does seem to fall in bad taste with a lot of people I've discussed this with, so it pretty much narrows down if its worth it in the long run. There are quite a lot of lore purists it seems and it would suck to upset people irl over it. I dig it man, and think it would be a great project. I like the idea that some Skaven chief sees how glorious the Men look in their finery with their subordinates actually listening to them, and him thinking "Yes yes, WE are superior so we can be better than the Pink Things!" I wouldn't worry about upsetting people on the forums. It's not like you'll be playing these people. They're your plastic war dudes, you're spending your money, and it's ultimately your hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayple Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 There's also a precedence to Skaven mimicking human society - in Under-Altdorf (in the first Thanquol book) the Skaven society was notably different to that of Skavenblight. Decadence and lavishness was the ruling trait, and their military mimicked the human formations and drilling of the society above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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