STOP WITH THE COMPLAINING AND REMEMBER WHY WE HAVE TGA.

[RuneBrush]

25 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

As I glimmer of hope, I will say that my little safe haven of the Destruction sub-forum has remained mostly positive during this time. We have a solid group of established posters there who all love the game and seem to steer newcomers in that direction with our outlook (at least I like to think that!).

I've found that too on my odd couple of ventures into it (which reminds me - I must get on with my Ogors).

[hobgoblinclub]

Everyone is entitled to have a negative reaction to things. I think the point is that we're all here to share our love of AoS (or should be). I don't want to scroll through loads of negative whining comments. That's not fun.

We all come here to talk about the cool game we love, not to find out 'he didn't like this' or 'she didn't like that'. It might be cathartic for each poster to moan about something but, when you have hundreds of users on a forum, threads quickly become very repetitive. Each negative post is suffered by hundreds scrolling past. 

It might seem like thought policing to ask people to stay more positive and constructive, but to say so misses the point. Allowing repetitive negative threads has all but killed every other forum out there.

To put it bluntly nobody is interested that you don't like a model. It's true! I'm sure you wouldn't care less if I wasn't keen on a release. However, if we both like a new mini, then an excited, constructive conversation ensues. It's the that will be of interest to others in the forum. 

How many people have increased their usage of TGA recently? It seems like a definite trend that everyone's visits have been more infrequent. In that environment, that anyone is arguing against positive change is baffling. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, hobgoblinclub said:

How many people have increased their usage of TGA recently? It seems like a definite trend that everyone's visits have been more infrequent.

 

In fairness there hasn't been very much to discuss in recent months. Until about 24 hours ago!

[hobgoblinclub]

1 minute ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

 

In fairness there hasn't been very much to discuss in recent months. Until about 24 hours ago!

Ha! True. I imagine the forum will go crazy next week! 

[PraetorDragoon]

12 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

You can still do that but as constructive criticism! But moaning for the sake of moaning is not what we want

 

11 hours ago, Arkiham said:

as ben said, unstructured moaning isn't productive, and tbh utterly pointless. 

if you have grief with something, create a replacement to the current process in your own thread don't take over something with complaints if people want to contribute they will.

"death is bad blah blah blah " unproductive and pointless.

"death isn't too strong I've found due to ,this, this this and that, in order to improve things it would be nice if gw did this this this and this ( obviously it cant be broken strong ) create profiles using templates, write rules etc --

this will be likely noted, proof?

chaos monsters, i started a thread about the vortexbeast. >> here ,<< mentioning the lack of capability with general chaos and some of the other monsters also, saying that the slaughterbrute was obviously khorne and the vortex beast tzeentch, and would likely see increased play by simply adding these marks, this wouldn't be game breaking, suggested some rules etc. this wasn't whiny in nature, complain ridden etc. just you know, saying "hey, this isn't the best, could you have a look?? this is what im suggesting..." 
lo and behold they added rules. well a mark.

at least, thats what I've taken from it 

I don't like writing long essays, so I keep things short. But because the vagueness of what is a "complaint" it makes me worry a lot more if my posts of dissatisfactions will be ruled as complaints and getting banned.

I don't want to live in that constant fear, so this will be the last post of me.

[Fungrim]

The martyr complex of all this 'my last post' stuff.... come on. 

Who would live in constant fear, seriously? Unless your main aim is to come on here to provoke and complain (in which I'd highly recommend using the BoLS comments section instead). The entire point of this thread was a simple, firm request for people to think before they post and try their best to be positive. It's not complex, it's not intimidation, it's common sense.

It's honestly a shame that people are feeling the need to 'throw in the towel' as it were, but it's not as if we're being asked to tow the company line or anything. People are simply being asked to avoid posting the same, monotonous, morose, one-line sentences to every thread in the forum because they can't conjure up any other constructive, interesting conversation.

[Nico]

Thanks for the mention Chris! Time to inject some positivity.

In an amazing week of GHB2 Preview, Shadespire preview, Nurgle, new campaign, new cheap army boxes - they've saved the best for last - Forgeworld have updated the Rogue Idol - my icon - 400 points - ally - only £65.

BOOM!

 

WAAAGH!

Assuming Ironjawz can ally with Greenskinz - this is +1 Bravery to Brutes too!

[Naflem]

Maybe I have a higher tolerance for these things (I am an American, have you seen our Presidents twitter feed?) but i feel like i have almost never encountered what I felt was trolling or moaning for the sake of moaning to the point it impacted my enjoyment of the forums in any way.  Particularly given the size of this forum as the premier forum for AOS; of course even people who enjoy the same hobby have differences of opinion about things relating to that hobby from time to time.  

Honestly this moaning about moaning stuff here has given me more of an "unfriendly" feeling than any post about "death needs love" or "games workshop is only in this for the money" (I love the game, models, and paints they put out, and i think GW does a pretty good job for their hobbyists, but they're not like sainted nuns and they are big boys so I don't generally get too worked up over that kind of thing, but I'm not an employee of them, nor a shareholder, nor involved in a gw supported podcast, so others milage may vary there).  

I recognize that I don't own or run this forum.  If @Ben would take some constructive advice, I cringed when I read the post that the rule was supposed to be deliberately vague.  In my opinion (and putting on my lawyer hat maybe as well as my american hat) a good rule is one that is clear as possible and puts people on notice as to what a violation would be.  Clarity rather than uncertainly is the best way to mold a society, even a little intenet forum society, particularly if the penalty for violation is excommunication.  A purposely vague rule is always going to seem to be enforced arbitratily to someone.  I agree that the sentiment that one would be "living in fear" of this rule is a bit over the top, but only because the worst that could happen if someone in a position of power decided I violated the rule is I would have to find another place on the internet to spend some of my time (or really just create a new account on one my alternate emaip addresses); but other than that i certainly understand the direction of that sentiments, if not the intensity. 

 

[inunn]

Crikey!

When I first saw this post last night I thought it was a bit intense, but having reflected I'm glad it's been brought up. I'm relatively new to the hobby and this forum has been part of the excitement form the beginning. Recently when I've been looking to expand my hobby and get into 40k I've realised how spoilt we are to have a place like this, and how rare it is to have somewhere on the internet where people understand how to have a mutually enjoyable conversation.

I will miss some of the contributors who have said they won't be staying. Though I did get sick of some threads getting derailed by long narrative vs competitive conversations, it was interesting to hear from people with a different perspective. I just hope that they don't see this as a personal rejection, but a request from the community to think about their tone. 

Anyway, I hope we end up stronger as a community as a result of coming together to talk about the kind of place we want to be. Have fun everyone.

[Fungrim]

50 minutes ago, Nico said:

Thanks for the mention Chris! Time to inject some positivity.

In an amazing week of GHB2 Preview, Shadespire preview, Nurgle, new campaign, new cheap army boxes - they've saved the best for last - Forgeworld have updated the Rogue Idol - my icon - 400 points - ally - only £65.

BOOM!

 

WAAAGH!

Assuming Ironjawz can ally with Greenskinz - this is +1 Bravery to Brutes too!

I want to 'like' this more than once...

[13on2D6]

It is the 'golden' age of the hobby

The only thing I am going to whinge about is how many amazing new things are coming our way, I feel spoilt!

 

R

[Nico]

I can post it again if you want?

[Fungrim]

11 minutes ago, Nico said:

I can post it again if you want?

Yes. Maybe with the new 'Rogue Idol returns' graphic added in so I can get extra giddy...

[wayniac]

Part of the issue is that saying things like "GW can't write balanced rules and they need to start doing it" or "I think competitive play is what is hurting AOS because my experience is <insert anecdote>" can be seen as negative, so that's part of where this mythical vague "line" needs to be drawn.  A discussion about the double turn that veers off into a tangent about powergamers isn't necessarily negative.  A post saying "I hate stormcast" may be negative if there's no other context (but also remember, one-line responses aren't "wrong" on forums) but isn't inherently negative, it's an opinion.

If I state that I feel that "giving in" to competitive gamers is a problem in AOS, and 5 people disagree with me, is my opinion suddenly negative, and should I be prevented from saying it?  That's the issue.  I'm not aware of which posts, but I had a warning the past few days over several posts being reported as "negative", the implication being that I was just lashing out at GW and AOS.  This is what I don't agree with because it stinks of a witch hunt to find people who aren't upbeat about everything as certain people here seem to be (there are several names I always see gushing over how great everything is and how each new release is better than the last) and "punish" them for being critical of the company and/or the game's direction when that's what a customer does; they like certain things, and dislike other things and voice their dislike.  Reporting a post should be something that is actually rude/insulting/trolling, not "This person is criticizing too many things".  When someone says that they feel the new hordes rule will break the game, and states that repeatedly in discussions that are talking about hordes, that's not negative just because you think they're wrong.

So I'm speaking as someone (and I'm sure there are others, again I don't know) who has actually been sanctioned for speaking my mind and viewpoints because those viewpoints are that the game sometimes has serious problems (which is more or less "the issues in the game allow these things to be easily exploited, thereby causing a problem") and that I'm not always happy with the direction that GW is going.  Now if you look at my posts, I'm not always "This sucks GW is stupid", I like a lot of things and I still prefer AOS to 40k despite it not being popular in my area anymore.  But I don't like everything (especially when it comes to balance and the "great divide" between competitive and casual players, but as I said before I played the game for 20 years and this has always been a problem although perhaps moreso in the past decade or so), and now I'm a little skeptical of giving my real viewpoint on things I don't like because if they come off as "too negative" people will report them and this act alone feels too much like encouraging groupthink and this isn't just being afraid, because it's obviously actually happened and people HAVE reported what (to me) seemed like benign criticism as being the wrong type of thoughts.

People's viewpoints are going to be affected by their local area. If you live in a place where you have a 20 person gaming club and it's all fun narrative stuff, you're going to think everything is great. if you live in an area where you game with 6 people and 4 of them want to play netlists all the time, not so much.  That doesn't make the person viewing things negatively because <insert release here> will have a negative impact on their meta any less worthy of having an opinion than the person who feels that <insert release here> is the best GW release yet.  Even if people get tired of seeing the same arguments come up, the issue is people are going to say their opinion based on their experiences and how they perceive things will affect them, and if that same argument can be used to point out a reason for their viewpoint, then guess what?  You'll see it come up once, twice, twenty times because it's evidence.  You not liking it and getting tired of seeing it doesn't make it less relevant to the discussion.

[polarbear]

The differentiator for me between reasonable free discussion and behaviour that creates a bad atmosphere is repetition.

For me, and this goes beyond forums, something I've had to moderate is how many times I need to make my point.

It is best for me to make my point once and move on, and not get caught into bringing it up constantly, going "Yes, but X" to everything the other person says, or dragging my issue into every conversation I have.

 

[Tzaangor Management]

1 hour ago, Naflem said:

In my opinion (and putting on my lawyer hat maybe as well as my american hat) a good rule is one that is clear as possible and puts people on notice as to what a violation would be.  Clarity rather than uncertainly is the best way to mold a society, even a little intenet forum society, particularly if the penalty for violation is excommunication.  A purposely vague rule is always going to seem to be enforced arbitratily to someone.  I agree that the sentiment that one would be "living in fear" of this rule is a bit over the top, but only because the worst that could happen if someone in a position of power decided I violated the rule is I would have to find another place on the internet to spend some of my time (or really just create a new account on one my alternate emaip addresses); but other than that i certainly understand the direction of that sentiments, if not the intensity. 

I completely understand the sentiment, however I would draw a parallel between this and the oft run WAAC players bringing their power lists to a narrative event debate. While some see this as the rules being too vague or the points too imbalanced, others will see this as the players responsibility. Those are both opinions and you can argue the merits of either, however in the end you do have to come down on one side or the other. Having an absolute encourages people to push right up to the edge of it, bending a rule as far as they can, while having a vague rule encourages the community to find their own level and use their own judgement.

In the real world this admittedly doesn't often work, but if I had to choose right now, for this forum, I choose allowing people free choice in building their narrative lists and trusting that they won't bring too many Skyfires to the table. There will be people who go overboard and I also choose to trust the moderators to address this in a proportionate and measured way.

 

[Ollie Grimwood]

The differentiator for me between reasonable free discussion and behaviour that creates a bad atmosphere is repetition.
For me, and this goes beyond forums, something I've had to moderate is how many times I need to make my point.
It is best for me to make my point once and move on, and not get caught into bringing it up constantly, going "Yes, but X" to everything the other person says, or dragging my issue into every conversation I have.
 

This one hundred times


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Double Misfire]

Blind fanboys and anti-GW trolls are two sides of the same coin. It's impossible to have a discussion with either and neither spend enough time painting models for or playing AoS to have a balanced opinion of it. Ignore 'em all and let Sigmar sort them out!

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, polarbear said:

The differentiator for me between reasonable free discussion and behaviour that creates a bad atmosphere is repetition.

 

41 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

This one hundred times

 

I don't disagree, but at the risk of sounding disrespectful (which I don't mean to be), it doesn't matter what your interpretation of negative behaviour or discussion is. It only matters what @Ben's interpretation is because he's the one threatening action against members of the community, and his post is not at all clear in that regard.

We all have our own interpretation. We all draw our lines in different places. A lot of people here seem to be merrily assuming that Ben's line is in the same place as their own and that they therefore won't be affected, but that's a pretty big assumption. How can we know?

Does this post count as 'complaining'? Probably. Is it enough to get me reported? Banned? Ben's post suggests that the answer is a definitive... maybe. Does it count as 'moaning'? Well, that's a little more vague. I don't think it does, but I can't be sure.

My view - if you're going to threaten a community with punishment you need to be clear about what the crime is.

 

EDIT: I should add that I haven't been very active on the forum in the last few weeks, so it could be that there are recent examples of bad behaviour that are so egregious that Ben's post obviously only applies to them, and everyone but me gets it. But somehow that seems unlikely. I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

EDIT #2: I've now spoken privately to 2 very active members who I consider to be mature and considerate posters, who claim that they are among those who have been targeted as 'complainers' and are considering quitting the forum. These are people who I am genuinely stunned would be in the mods' sights. That suggests to me that perhaps the wrong tone has been struck here.

[Gaz Taylor]

I must admit, I'm really confused that some people are struggling with this, so I'm going to put some points up to see if this helps. 

We want this forum to be a Positive Experience

As the point states, we want this forum to be a positive place and a nice experience for people. Easy way to picture this - Imagine going into a gaming shop and seeing lots of cool stuff going on. Now imagine some people near you moaning about something but not being constructive but actually having a moan about it. Now imagine that as you wander around the shop, the groups of people moaning seem to increase and get more annoying. Got that imagine in your head? That's not what we want here. We want you to be happy and excited and not being sad.

If you disagree with something/somebody, be constructive

Through life, we will all find stuff we aren't keen on and will dislike or disagree with. The good way to express this is in a constructive way by explaining why you don't like it and then not repeatedly going on about it. Again we want this place to be a positive experience and most people react better to somebody using reason and intelligence to express why they dislike something rather than moaning about it.

Use Common Sense

What it says on the tin, please use common sense when replying to any topics

Unsure about something, ask a mod

If you really are unsure, just ask one of the moderators but make sure you have tried the points above

 

Cheers

[James McPherson]

It would be great if negative texts were flagged with a red color (for negative) and keep them black for positive. Why?  That way people can just filter out the red ****** as it makes it faster to skip over reading replies that are toxic/a waste of time.

Maybe as punishment you get all your posts made 'red' for a week or X amount of days when someone complains or flags your post to a moderator, so it puts you off posting and gives you a cool off period.

Hopefully that would prevent the forum getting spammed from negative posters as it kinda discredits your posts and shows you look like a negative person with a history of complaining needlessly all the time.

 

 

[James McPherson]

and just to add something positive, this forum is part of what got me into AOS , back when I couldn't find anyone to connect with, and long may it continue. 

[Kramer]

4 hours ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

inevitably going to make a lot of perfectly good and reasonable contributors who sometimes take a more critical attitude (such as @Auticus) nervous that they are no longer welcome.

Of course everybody should be welcome but come on... 

This was the first post after this one yesterday when I checked the forum and it opened like this.

In one go you go from a faction getting a update, should be exciting, to not only invalidating the release if it isn't top tier competitive but also completely invalidating the last release. This isn't a 'critical attitude'. Luckily others were also excited and the thread got turned into something I enjoyed reading. 

My personal opinion is, of course everybody should feel welcome. But if the original post made you conclude you would get banned at some point than maybe you should consider the possibility that yes, it's also meant about you. And at @Auticus not trying to call you out but you were the example mentioned and I don't think you should be made a martyr.

 

[Tzaangor Management]

48 minutes ago, wayniac said:

A discussion about the double turn that veers off into a tangent about powergamers isn't necessarily negative.  A post saying "I hate stormcast" may be negative if there's no other context (but also remember, one-line responses aren't "wrong" on forums) but isn't inherently negative, it's an opinion.

...

Even if people get tired of seeing the same arguments come up, the issue is people are going to say their opinion based on their experiences and how they perceive things will affect them, and if that same argument can be used to point out a reason for their viewpoint, then guess what?  You'll see it come up once, twice, twenty times because it's evidence.  You not liking it and getting tired of seeing it doesn't make it less relevant to the discussion.

A tangent is a tangent because it veers off in a different direction, but if all tangents are veering in the same direction, they are no longer tangents, they are a prevailing theme. In the specific example you give, the problem is not the double turn topic, but all the other topics in which the same 'tangent' appears.

People's own opinions are of course influenced by their personal situation and, in this case, their hobby environment. Expressing ones opinion is the essence of discussion, but discussions move forward and expressing the same opinion over and over again without changing it is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. It is the reason that threads die, because no one is interested in that discussion any more.

This does not mean that ones own opinion is irrelevant that can never be the case, but it may mean that ones argument needs to be revised. 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

We want this forum to be a Positive Experience

 

Interestingly, there are people on this thread who've stated that TGA doesn't need to be a debating society, and words to that effect. To them I guess debate is inherently confrontational and therefore infringes on their positive experience. For me, a spirited debate with point and counterpoint is a positive experience, and is one of the reasons I visit and contribute to forums in the first place - I'm not looking for a fight, I'm just looking to exercise my critical faculties over a topic that I care about.

To reference your example, if I walk into a games shop and overhear a group having a debate, even a somewhat negative and confrontational one, it's possible that I'll still find that debate interesting and it won't necessarily have a negative impact on my experience there. Other people will be immediately turned off and leave.

People are looking for different things when they visit TGA, or any forum. We all have different expectations, preferences and red lines. The generality of wishing for a positive experience for everyone is great, but without being specific about what you consider a positive environment to be no one can be sure whether they're acting within acceptable parameters. You seem to feel that the look and feel of a positive environment is self-evident and that your expectations and preferences are shared by everyone, but just as an exercise can you try just assuming for a moment that they aren't? What are your actual community guidelines?

On the surface, leaving it to individual members' discretion and good judgement seems like the mature thing to do, but you can't assume that this will automatically lead to everyone reaching the same conclusions as you. If you want a specific type of community then you need to give the community specific guidelines. By all means allow people to interpret those guidelines with a degree of flexibility, but if you don't have something solid that people can refer to then you can't be indignant when people unwittingly transgress upon the 'unwritten rules'.