Stealing Endless Spells and/or Stealing spells restricted to a faction

[themortalgod]

So, I havent really seen any FAQ or direction from GW about effects that steal spells (Curseling of Tzeentch, for example)

Is the player allowed to steal an enemy's endless spell model and cast it?

And if so, if the spells says that it can only be cast by a specific faction (for example the comet), do that stop someone like the Curseling from gleaning it?

 

 

[CJPT]

6 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

It is the Curseling dispel effect that is really the one that is questionable because it explicitly states he can cast the spell. 

 

The Lord of Change Spell Thief ability is also explicit about this:

Spell-thief: If the result of an unbinding roll for a Lord of Change is 9 or more, it learns the spell that is being cast, and can cast it in subsequent turns.

Warscrolls may override the core rules, but this is a case of Warscrolls fighting each other. I agree that a rolloff is the most likely solution until it's FAQ'd.

However: I really don't think you should be able to 'steal' your opponent's models, because this takes the spell stealing abilities from being fun to being completely broken. If your Curseling steals your opponent's Purple Sun and then you cast it using their model, you've not just gained a 100 point spell for yourself - you've denied your opponent the ability to try to cast it again, because they no longer have the model.

As a Tzeentch player, I think the answer is to simply make sure you always have as many spare Endless Spell models available as possible, even if you don't have them in your list. Using your opponent's models is totally unreasonable imo.

[Arkiham]

7 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

As of the FAQ release today, you can't steal Endless spells if you haven't paid the points for them.

it still works if you save the points in my view.

so say leave 60 points in your list and you then pay for it when you steal it. that has to be what it means otherwise they may as well write you can never steal endless spells, if you've paid points for them, you arent stealing them as you already know them

[BaldoBeardo]

As of the FAQ release today, you can't steal Endless spells if you haven't paid the points for them.

[Mephisto]

On 7/11/2018 at 1:34 AM, AlphaKennyThing said:

It seems as clear as day to me with regards to the Stormcast-only spell. The warscrolls all matter in this regard.

Stormcast conjures spell, Tzeentch dude unbinds, and can attempt to cast the spell. Look at the spell's restriction(s). Ah, it's Stormcast only. Spell fizzles out, and unfortunately I don't get to nick it this turn. I do the same for an Endless Spell. Check restrictions. Ah, I need to own the model to represent it on the battlefield. I don't own the model. Unlucky, I can't cast it.

Having a spell specify faction is what appears to be a purposely designed factor against spellsteals. There are very few spells that have it, so hardly a game changer for Tzeentch.

I've had a long think regarding this. Even discussed with my friends who are all rather rules savvy and we all came to the same conclusions in various ways. In the case of the stormcast only spell - literally why else would they print that on the warscroll? It's pretty clear there. 

The major point though is that the ability for Tzeentch models to steal a spell DOES NOT disregard any other casting criterion, so why would it disregard stipulations important enough to print them in the general rules (with Endless Spells; must own to cast) or specific warscrolls (SCE spell). For instance, to cast a spell, the spell has you make a roll. You must succeed that roll to cast it. "Well it says I get to steal it and cast it immediately. I don't have to roll it just says I get to cast it." I mean that's pretty preposterous to assert. It's as preposterous as disregarding any other casting constraints on the spell such as targeting , ranges, and line of sight. Now in a casual game who cares. You can play with empty bases to represent models or ask you friend if you can borrow his Endless Spell when you hijack it or whatever maximizes your fun. To play a game where the rules matter however, there's a stipulation that you must own models to play them/field them. You simply must. Now... I admire the Tzeentch player who shows up to a tournament with a box of malign portents and 2d6 (or more) Dryads for when they Hijack a Branchwraith's Roused to Wrath. That amuses me. But that's nothing new for them. They're already bringing extra models of daemons and ******. It's like having a wishboard in MTG. 

Oh, and Tzeentch isn't the only army that gets to steal Endless Spells. Nagash, pg. 60 LON. He knows the spells of ALL DEATH WIZARDS (not just friendlies) on the Battlefield. So if you play the mirror any Endless Spells your opponent has paid for are in turn known by all said opponent's (death) wizards which are in turn known by Nagash. Now this tickles me. It's really niche and will rarely come up (even though Sacrament is on the upswing as will Nighthaunt be I imagine and they may take some ESs) but it's really funny. I'm going to have a box of malign portents under my arm just in case at all future games.

While the thought of me reaching onto someone's staging area/display board to grab their Endless Spell amuses me, it's not the gentlemanly thing to do. 

[Choombatta]

Personally I have no problem with my opponent using any of my models I do not currently have down on the table. In fact, this happens quite often with our group.

From my point of view, I would be handicapping my opponent if some of his abilities were unusable because he did not own the model needed, yet I had it sitting on my shelf.

[AaronWilson]

I think it's clear you can't cast spell that are only castable by SCE wizards. I think it's also clear you can learn / cast your opponent endless spells provided you bring our own model. 

[AlphaKennyThing]

It seems as clear as day to me with regards to the Stormcast-only spell. The warscrolls all matter in this regard.

Stormcast conjures spell, Tzeentch dude unbinds, and can attempt to cast the spell. Look at the spell's restriction(s). Ah, it's Stormcast only. Spell fizzles out, and unfortunately I don't get to nick it this turn. I do the same for an Endless Spell. Check restrictions. Ah, I need to own the model to represent it on the battlefield. I don't own the model. Unlucky, I can't cast it.

Having a spell specify faction is what appears to be a purposely designed factor against spellsteals. There are very few spells that have it, so hardly a game changer for Tzeentch.

[SirPug]

16 hours ago, Overread said:

Yep, I think the key is that whilst many spells state that the player must own the model to use them (esp for things like summoning); when the spells work so that the player can "steal" from the opponent its fair to use the opponents model since the player casting the spell might not know all that the opponent has nor could be expected to bring it with them. 

In contrast if you know you're summoning or casting endless spells yourself you know to bring the spare models required to support that. 

Or the changeling player brings his malign sorcery box with him and uses those models.

[Richelieu]

13 hours ago, Overread said:

Yep, I think the key is that whilst many spells state that the player must own the model to use them (esp for things like summoning); when the spells work so that the player can "steal" from the opponent its fair to use the opponents model since the player casting the spell might not know all that the opponent has nor could be expected to bring it with them. 

In contrast if you know you're summoning or casting endless spells yourself you know to bring the spare models required to support that. 

Not a chance.  I'll use an easier example.  Branchwraith can summon dryads with a spell.  Can you with a straight face say that if curseling steals that spell that he can summon his opponent's dryad models?  

[heywoah_twitch]

Agree with most of the general feelings here that you are allowed to cast the endless spell, but must supply your own model - which is a malign sorcery restriction (not the core rules, so warscroll wouldn't trump that requirement).

It's a requirement like many others that you are not able to ignore after stealing a spell, like succeeding on the cast roll or standing on a sylvaneth wyldwood for Roused To Wrath, or being a stormcast eternal for the spells that require that - a restriction which has no other business being in a spell's text but to restrict such spell-stealing tactics.

[Arkiham]

you dont use your opponents model. 

as they can still cast it.

you use your own model, but you do steal knowledge of the spell. 

 

so chaos models who can gain access to the spells. off the top of my head are

• the lords of change
•  blue scribes
• cursling  
• archaon
• kairos (with ability restrictions  spell needs to be learnt first) 

[Mephisto]

1 hour ago, CJPT said:

The Lord of Change Spell Thief ability is also explicit about this:

Spell-thief: If the result of an unbinding roll for a Lord of Change is 9 or more, it learns the spell that is being cast, and can cast it in subsequent turns.

Warscrolls may override the core rules, but this is a case of Warscrolls fighting each other. I agree that a rolloff is the most likely solution until it's FAQ'd.

However: I really don't think you should be able to 'steal' your opponent's models, because this takes the spell stealing abilities from being fun to being completely broken. If your Curseling steals your opponent's Purple Sun and then you cast it using their model, you've not just gained a 100 point spell for yourself - you've denied your opponent the ability to try to cast it again, because they no longer have the model.

As a Tzeentch player, I think the answer is to simply make sure you always have as many spare Endless Spell models available as possible, even if you don't have them in your list. Using your opponent's models is totally unreasonable imo.

You pretty much nailed my thinking. 

The reason I find this question to actually be a conundrum is that a condition of being able to CAST an Endless Spell is that you must OWN THE MODEL. It actually states in Malign Sorcery in order to cast it you must own the model and have it present.

The way I'd read it until FAQ'd is, say my opponent took Purple Sun of Shyish but I didn't. They go to cast Purple Sun and I Spell-thief it. If I happen to have my box of models there with one of every Endless Spell in it including Purple Sun, I can set up my model. I don't get to use THEIR model. The reason for this is two-fold. They can attempt to recast the Purple Sun on a later turn and would thus have their own model still available for their own casting of the spell. Then there's the fact that, while I'm not overly possessive of my own models, I know some players are and it's their prerogative to be so.

With the way Summoning now works and endless spells, it's almost as if you need a little MTG styled sideboard of models.

[ppetford]

30 minutes ago, CJPT said:

However: I really don't think you should be able to 'steal' your opponent's models, because this takes the spell stealing abilities from being fun to being completely broken. If your Curseling steals your opponent's Purple Sun and then you cast it using their model, you've not just gained a 100 point spell for yourself - you've denied your opponent the ability to try to cast it again, because they no longer have the model.

 

This ?

This is why I feel it shouldn’t be allowed

[themortalgod]

51 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Again, he has access to the spell but if the spell specifies he cannot cast it then you're looking at roll-off or pre-game discussion.

for Glean Magic and Changeling, I think its less grey. They may know the spell, that doesn't mean they can cast it if there is restriction on who can cast a specific spell.

It is the Curseling dispel effect that is really the one that is questionable because it explicitly states he can cast the spell. 

 

[BaldoBeardo]

2 hours ago, Jocho said:

And what happens with the changeling??

He can cast one spell known by a wizard, and if you pay an endless spell all of your mages known it.

He could cast this spell?

IMO that he can.

Again, he has access to the spell but if the spell specifies he cannot cast it then you're looking at roll-off or pre-game discussion.

[Jocho]

And what happens with the changeling??

He can cast one spell known by a wizard, and if you pay an endless spell all of your mages known it.

He could cast this spell?

IMO that he can.

[Overread]

1 hour ago, ppetford said:

Its a personal opinion on how I think the game should be played. I may be proved wrong in an FAQ and that’s totally cool. Ultimately it comes down to knowing what your opponents can do and adapting to it. 

 

Yep, I think the key is that whilst many spells state that the player must own the model to use them (esp for things like summoning); when the spells work so that the player can "steal" from the opponent its fair to use the opponents model since the player casting the spell might not know all that the opponent has nor could be expected to bring it with them. 

In contrast if you know you're summoning or casting endless spells yourself you know to bring the spare models required to support that. 

[BaldoBeardo]

13 minutes ago, GFD said:

It's in the DoT designer's commentary. 

Absolutely no idea how I missed that. ?

I still think you're looking at a roll-off where the spell itself specifies who can attempt to cast it, as the warscroll trump doesn't apply outside core rules.

[ppetford]

It’s not that I personally have a problem with people touching my models. That’s the way endless spells work and I’m super looking forward to my first game using them!

Its a personal opinion on how I think the game should be played. I may be proved wrong in an FAQ and that’s totally cool. Ultimately it comes down to knowing what your opponents can do and adapting to it. AKA don’t cast endless spells near models with those rules.

 

[GFD]

It's in the DoT designer's commentary. 

[Overread]

Personally I think that if an ability lets you "steal" something from an opponent then its perfectly fair to let the player use the others models. So if an ability lets them steal an endless spell then its perfectly fair for them to use your model. Heck the way Endless spells work (at least predatory ones) your opponent can move it around the table between your turns anyway.

I mean its not like they are stealing the spell for real, they are just deploying your model to the table under their control. Barring special cases I can't imagine refusing an opponent touching my models during the game for normal game purposes. (and to be honest those types of people you wouldn't let touch your models chances are you wouldn't play them any way). 

[ppetford]

Agree that an FAQ is needed on this. My thoughts are

1: if a spell specifically states only a faction can cast it, then only that faction can cast it - no matter what.

2: If my opponent “steals” an endless spell as you say, and they don’t own the correct model for that spell when they consequently cast it - then they don’t have a model to represent the spell. They don’t get it. From a personal stance, there’s no way your putting my model on the board!

Edit: if they do have the model available to represent the spell, then go ahead

[BaldoBeardo]

5 hours ago, themortalgod said:

Fair, but it is a case of contradicting rules on warscrolls, which takes precedence?

"Each time a Curseling successfully unbinds an enemy spell, he can immediately attempt to cast it himself even though it is your opponent’s hero phase. If this spell is cast, your opponent cannot attempt to unbind it."

vs

"Only Stormcast Eternal Wizards can attempt to cast this spell."

In this case, the Curseling doesn't know the spell, it is the effect that is specifically saying he can cast it vs the warscroll saying he specifically can't. Direct contradiction. 

I have a feeling I know how this will be FAQ'd, but in the meantime, roll off.

[themortalgod]

1 hour ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Sportsmanship would say no - you can't steal your opponent's models. But nothing in the rules specifically.

If a spell states only certain people can cast it, you can't use it unless you are one. Doesn't mean you don't know it, just means you can't cast it.

Fair, but it is a case of contradicting rules on warscrolls, which takes precedence?

"Each time a Curseling successfully unbinds an enemy spell, he can immediately attempt to cast it himself even though it is your opponent’s hero phase. If this spell is cast, your opponent cannot attempt to unbind it."

vs

"Only Stormcast Eternal Wizards can attempt to cast this spell."

In this case, the Curseling doesn't know the spell, it is the effect that is specifically saying he can cast it vs the warscroll saying he specifically can't. Direct contradiction. 

[BaldoBeardo]

3 hours ago, themortalgod said:

So, I havent really seen any FAQ or direction from GW about effects that steal spells (Curseling of Tzeentch, for example)

Is the player allowed to steal an enemy's endless spell model and cast it?

And if so, if the spells says that it can only be cast by a specific faction (for example the comet), do that stop someone like the Curseling from gleaning it?

 

 

Sportsmanship would say no - you can't steal your opponent's models. But nothing in the rules specifically.

If a spell states only certain people can cast it, you can't use it unless you are one. Doesn't mean you don't know it, just means you can't cast it.