Problems with the good guys

[Malakree]

Lawful good is generally stupid when it comes to lawful evil, like how can you have the ioneth deepkin and daughters of khaine in the faction and not see the lawful evil comparison. Compared to them gorkamorka and destruction are definitely not evil, that ascribes way to much motive, is the weather evil? Destruction i the definition of chaotic neutral.

The fact sigmar tolerates half of the order factions shows he is at best not evil. The only faction in order which can be properly argued to be "good" is the seraphon. Sigmar and the stormcast are more of an authoritarian regime than anything else. A benevolent tyrant and his personal enforcers.

[GammaMage]

I like playing the 'good guys' too ,but I have a different perspective. Nobody is perfect. Instead of saying 'who are the good guys?' I look at the armies and say 'Who is trying to be the good guys?' or even 'Which army can I tell a redemption story with?'

So yes, the more I learn about him, the more I am questioning whether Sigmar is a good guy after all. And I think everyone agrees that the Knights Excelsior are taking things way too far. But none of that means that the rest of the Stormcast can't be good guys, the Hammers of Sigmar, the Hallowed Knights, even the Anvils. They may have personal failings, but they are trying to do what is right.

I play Daughters of Khaine. Idon't  think Morathi is good. Her main reason to be order is that she hates Slaanesh, and she is incredibly selfish, secretly collecting power to ascend to godhood whilst lying to the majority of her forces. But her lies mean that, actually, large section of the DoK are sincere worshippers of Khaine. And whilst he is the god of murder, and his followers are rather bloodthirsty, there is a convenient outlet for their bloodthirstiness in the form of battles aginst evil - Chaos and Death. (Sorry, but this is the Order section of the forums, in our books, Chaos and Death are evil.) So my army is telling a redemption story. They are loyal worshippers of their god, and though they have significant flaws, they are trying to be the good guys, and use their skills at killing to protect the great cities.

As for the Idoneth, they are much hared to tell a redemption story with. If they have adult namarti, they're stealing people's souls. They think their own survival justifies their killing of innocent villagers. Their animals are blinded and magically forced to serve. But, you know, even then there are interesting stories to be told. If we accept their help, does it taint the goodness of our army? Should we just refuse to play them as allies?

The Mortal Realms are big. There is room for every story. If we can have cities built on giant worms, and Korghos Khul riding a Death Star, then we can easily have good armies trying to do what is right.

[ledha]

8 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

They wiped out those who called to Sigmar for help.

No shades of grey. No, purging the evil with the light from warding lanterns. Just killing.

The knights Excelsior are so drawn into the “destroy all chaos!” That they entirely missed other factions that were sneaking into the city of Excelsis.

so, they should have left a entire corrupted village and it's people to live ?

[Malakree]

8 hours ago, xking said:

 gorkamorka and destruction definitely is evil, Are you telling me that an army of ogors  that devour the entire populations is not evil?  

Is eating cows and chickens evil? I'm sure they would consider a slaughterhouse to be the height of evil.

More over it's not like they aren't doing it to each other, gorkamorka is as likely to fight itself as anyone else. They also don't judge the others for fighting back, it's just the natural order. Destruction isn't evil, it's not good, it's chaotic (in the traditional sense of the word).

Death and Chaos are definitely evil. Death because it's a cult dedicated to a megalomaniac that wants complete control and power. Chaos because it's a cult OF people that want complete control and power.

Order isn't evil, it's not good either, it's controlling. The difference is that the order factions do it for less selfish reasons.

Also if a village wants to dedicate itself to Nagash and isn't actively attacking or hurting the villages around it then wiping it...that's religious persecution. 

[Timothy]

Stormcast Eternals are obviously supposed to be the good guys of the setting. The Knight excelsior's callously culling the tainted populous is chilling but necessary to prevent the disease from spreading and also saving the afflicted souls from Nurgle. The SCE actively root out evil, they even have a angelic motif with prosecutors and the Lord Celistant. 

[TheOtherJosh]

37 minutes ago, xking said:

Apparently the knights Excelsior should have left a village corrupted with  nurgle's plague be.    So disease can spread to other villages and The Living City, Killing hundreds of millions more.

So, cleansing (and by cleansing I mean purging of all life) a location because there is “an issue”? None of that “we’re from Azyr and we’re here to help” ... its ... “burn the heretics” and “we decide who is a heretic”.

That population had hope ... and Sigmar’s Troops were the death of their hope for redemption... as it was implied that they destroyed all. 

One might say that Nurgle was right... that hope is indeed a lie. And that Sigmar (through his representatives) isn’t there to save but to purge the “Unclean” as defined by those doing the purging. Effectively troopers of the storm that purge those who don’t meet an arbitrarily defined benchmark. (While they’ve been ignoring the Death factions and their subtle matchinations in their midst.)

If a group of SCE aren’t traveling with a Knight-Azyros, Lord Castellant or Lord Veritant to cleanse the corruption and be the bastion of Hope for the downtrodden... then that sounds like a problem with the Chamber.

It is like throwing out a dozen eggs because someone didn’t wash them before putting them in the egg carton.

Because, If all one has is a hammer and shield the only solution would be to beat stuff with a hammer and shield.

I’ll finish with the comment that Stormcast are ideal bastions of order ... they are the “law” and then are judge, jury, and executioner. (Much like Judge Dread...) And they are ideal implements to enforce a rule of law. But woe betide those who fall short of the measure because they’ll not likely make it out alive ...

Is it “good” to be the destroyers of a hope of redemption? Or is it just a purge that wasn’t really necessary? It kinda sounds like a “I’ll save your soul, you’ll just need to die to be saved.” 

[michu]

I think using Knights Excelsior as the proof that Sigmar is a tyrant is incorrect. They're an exception not a rule. They exist to show us that not all Stormcast are noble, but they're in minority.  Different Stormhosts have different approaches. I can be wrong, but did not the Hallowed Knights heal civilians cursed with Plague of Nurgle?

[Naflem]

I think AoS avoids having pure good factions because any two factions would potentially face each other on the tabletop, so you need a world where Stormcast could conceivably be in a position where a game in which they smash up some free peoples (or other Stormcast) makes sense. 

[Drofnum]

11 minutes ago, michu said:

I think using Knights Excelsior as the proof that Sigmar is a tyrant is incorrect. They're an exception not a rule. They exist to show us that not all Stormcast are noble, but they're in minority.  Different Stormhosts have different approaches. I can be wrong, but did not the Hallowed Knights heal civilians cursed with Plague of Nurgle?

I dont think anyone is using them to prove he is a tyrant, more just showing them as an example of how he isnt as pure and noble as others are claiming. You also cant say that Stormcast are the good guys, except this one group. If that one group wasnt accepted by both Sigmar and all the other stormhosts then it might be different, but no one in the Stormcast call out the Knights Excelsior for their methods, no one is shunning them or advocating for them to be removed as a stormhost or recalled to Azyr until their flaw is fixed etc.  They are condoning their actions by doing nothing about them.

[boomr19]

9 hours ago, GammaMage said:

 

I like playing the 'good guys' too ,but I have a different perspective. Nobody is perfect. Instead of saying 'who are the good guys?' I look at the armies and say 'Who is trying to be the good guys?' or even 'Which army can I tell a redemption story with?'

 

I really like this approach for playing an army with a more "good" theme.  Since you can't apply judgements over a whole faction/race, I like focusing on your own army, or your own story you are trying to tell in the mortal realms.  Obviously there are individuals all along the scale of good -> evil (however you define that) in each faction. 

[Malakree]

Sorry I misspoke and confused two words when I said tyrant, I meant dictator. To clarify what I incorrectly said above.

Sigmar is a benevolent dictator. 

[TheOtherJosh]

1 hour ago, michu said:

 I can be wrong, but did not the Hallowed Knights heal civilians cursed with Plague of Nurgle?

Which was something I was attempting to subtly point out. If one group of SCE are bringing hope ... and others are not?

While the Knights Excelsior may be an extreme example it’s been identified that the reforging can“break” Stormcast ... “Bear-eater” as an example was returned in a quasi-broken state after the reforging.

The SCE are not “good” there are “good Stormcast Eternals” but at face value they are merely a tool to enforce a specific kind of order. And those SCE that are ‘good’ have a high potential to end up broken in the reforging ... and they become less ‘good’ and more law and order.

[Burf]

I know others have said this but, there are no good guys. Irl either tbh.

[GlanceOnASix]

Just throwing this out there.. Kharadrons.. pretty stand up dudes, all this silly man-ling infighting and purging could take a lesson from the skyboys.

When a race of people decide to write a rulebook  to resolve your mutinies/problems/relations  and follow the protocols, ya cant be all that bad.  

[PlasticCraic]

15 hours ago, xking said:

 gorkamorka and destruction definitely is evil, Are you telling me that an army of ogors  that devour the entire populations is not evil?  

I would absolutely argue that it's not evil. 

It's no different to Lions eating Antelopes, or humans eating beef.  It's a case of warm-blooded, sentient mammals eating the flesh of other warm-blooded, sentient mammals because that's the circle of life. 

If you think that's evil, I hope you're a practicing vegan.  And even if you personally are vegan, humans as a species would be just as evil as the other predators (perhaps moreso, because unlike lions or ogors we are omnivorous and can survive without meat - they are carnivores and cannot thrive without it).

 

[PlasticCraic]

7 hours ago, Malakree said:

Is eating cows and chickens evil? I'm sure they would consider a slaughterhouse to be the height of evil.

More over it's not like they aren't doing it to each other, gorkamorka is as likely to fight itself as anyone else. They also don't judge the others for fighting back, it's just the natural order. Destruction isn't evil, it's not good, it's chaotic (in the traditional sense of the word).

 

Yep, in the Beastclaw battletome they explicitly state that Ogors enjoy eating Orruks. 

They are in no way persecuting humans.  They just want meat.  Nothing good or evil about it, it's just the food chain.

[TheOtherJosh]

2 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

18 hours ago, xking said:

gorkamorka and destruction definitely is evil, Are you telling me that an army of ogors  that devour the entire populations is not evil?  

I would absolutely argue that it's not evil.

The BCR are cursed to always have the Everwinter at their backs and are always ravenously hungry. Wherever they go, a sorcerous winter follows their trail close behind ... and one must stay fed or one dies of hunger and cold.

 There’s a great quote that I recall about baby dragons that is rather apropos :

”Baby dragons can’t figure out humans, if they didn’t want to be killed... why were they made of meat and treasure?”

I’m sure that ogres are similar, If humans didn’t want to be eaten ... why were they made of food?  (At least the Sylvaneth are smart enough not to be made of food...)

[Requete]

I just think it's complicated. But why the assumption that the "Free Peoples " are good? Because they're free?  Freedom is a good, but just having it doesn't make one good.

Also, "good" people won't necessarily be on the same side. Two medieval European kingdoms could both basically be good but still go to war, and the knights on both sides would kill one another and associated peasants even though both groups adhere to chivalry, the same religion, etc.

One thing that is cool to me about the Stormcast is that both the reforging and the memory issue doom them to become increasingly alienated from (and in some ways above) those that they protect. "Noblesse Oblige" indeed.

[Timothy]

To find a strict Good vs Evil you need to choose a side of what is good and whatever threatens that side can be evil. From a strictly human-centric point of view there are clear good guys that protect humanity from outside threats. Some Aelves and Duardin have very similar way of life so it is in there best interest to help one another out. Using a human lense there are clear lines between good and evil.

Destruction-evil because they want to kill me and break all my stuff.

Chaos- No explanation needed.

Death- Nagash is a huge jerkhole and vampires view the living as cattle.

Simply because something is misguided or needs to consume humans to survive does not exonerate that they freaking eat people. The flesh eater courts are still super evil despite them perceiving the world differently. As a human myself I feel safe in the assumption that looking after my own=good, and allowing others to kill my own= bad. It is also worth noting that under the rule of the SCE and friends that there is much less suffering/wanton destruction in the realms. I would take farming turnips over running away from blood reavers any day.

 

This discussion does also show a flaw within the Grand Alliance system. I would much prefer individual factions that frequently fight against those they despise and ally with kindred spirits. Morathi and those deepkin don't fit nicely into any of the other alliances but they certainly don't fit into order.

[GammaMage]

The Daughters are in Order mostly because they showed up to Order's fights against Chaos and Death without actually being asked. They kind of forced their way into the Grand Alliance - they have become entertainers of a sort in the Free Cities by running fight-club style circuses and though they are skirting a fine line and are mistrusted, they haven't done anything evil enough (that people know of) to get themselves into trouble with their allies. Plus there were blood cults in Azyr the entire time it was sealed off from the realms, so people are used to seeing witch aelves, as unusual as we may think they are.

The Idoneth, on the other hand, actively raid human settlements and steal people's souls. Maybe they can use their magic to make people forget that or something, but, I don't see them as being able to integrate into Order and even live in the Free Cities the way DoK do.

[MachinaMandala]

This is a great idea, dude.

[Clan's Cynic]

8 hours ago, GammaMage said:

The Daughters are in Order mostly because they showed up to Order's fights against Chaos and Death without actually being asked. They kind of forced their way into the Grand Alliance - they have become entertainers of a sort in the Free Cities by running fight-club style circuses and though they are skirting a fine line and are mistrusted, they haven't done anything evil enough (that people know of) to get themselves into trouble with their allies. Plus there were blood cults in Azyr the entire time it was sealed off from the realms, so people are used to seeing witch aelves, as unusual as we may think they are.

The Idoneth, on the other hand, actively raid human settlements and steal people's souls. Maybe they can use their magic to make people forget that or something, but, I don't see them as being able to integrate into Order and even live in the Free Cities the way DoK do.

I'm honestly surprised they didn't just make an Aelf Grand Alliance. If we saw one after the variations of them are all released I'd not be surprised. 

[Timothy]

39 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

I'm honestly surprised they didn't just make an Aelf Grand Alliance. If we saw one after the variations of them are all released I'd not be surprised. 

I sure they do something like that. I find the 4 alliances to be tiresome and too simple in scope to contain all factions well. Something like Legions of Nagash for other factions would be preferable imo. Something like "The Green Tide" for all orruk/grot forces or "Hordes of the Great Maw" for all ogor units. 

[Malakree]

43 minutes ago, Timothy said:

Something like "The Green Tide" for all orruk/grot forces or "Hordes of the Great Maw" for all ogor units. 

The lore now states that the Ogors also worship Gorkamorka in one of his forms. Ogors are now part of the Waaagh! for all intents and purposes.

I do think they need to make "Grand Alliance: Sigmar" and split off all the sigmarite orientated factions from the others, so all the human factions and the dorf factions. Then the Aelves, Sylvaneth and the more vicious order go make their own faction. I "think" Seraphon would end up in the sigmar faction but they are weird, honestly being able to ally them into free people etc. would make way more sense if things like DoK and Ioneth weren't in faction.

[Skabnoze]

11 hours ago, Timothy said:

Simply because something is misguided or needs to consume humans to survive does not exonerate that they freaking eat people.

A shark, crocodile, tiger, etc is not evil when someone wanders into their environment or proximity and gets eaten.  They are simply hungry at that point.  And even enjoying the act of catching your food is not evil or else we would have to classify Cats and Orca as evil considering that they often have great fun playing with their food before they eat it (go watch a video of Orca knocking dead seals through the air with their tails like a soccer ball).

The act of being higher on the food-chain that something else does not make something evil.  But that also does not mean that someone cannot also be evil.