Let's chat Kharadron Overlords

[Beliman]

42 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

What use is an extra CP for Kharadron when they only have two CAs (one tied to the lackluster Admiral)?

Like you said, only Admiral and Brokk have CA.

[mikethefish]

48 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

What use is an extra CP for Kharadron when they only have two CAs (one tied to the lackluster Admiral)?

Because there are three "generic" new command abilities, as well as a slew of new command abilities available, based on what Realm you are fighting in.  Kharadron will be spoiled for choice in the Command ability department, despite not having many "native" CA's

I get that it's kinda hip and cool to be a naysayer about KO right now, but it pays to do a bit more research

[DanielFM]

35 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

Because there are three "generic" new command abilities, as well as a slew of new command abilities available, based on what Realm you are fighting in.  Kharadron will be spoiled for choice in the Command ability department, despite not having many "native" CA's

I get that it's kinda hip and cool to be a naysayer about KO right now, but it pays to do a bit more research

Yes, I can show you back why it's important to do a bit of research. Inspiring presence brings nothing over the Admirals battleshock immunity. How many units in KO benefit from running 6/rerolling charges - two? Those generic CAs bring very little to a KO general's toolbox.

Realm ones: let's see how many tournaments are played choosing a realm. Wait and see. Anyway, the few already shown sound quite rubbish.

I'm not bashing KO to be cool, but to prove GW dropped the ball by making them comparatively weaker than other armies: no new toys (free summoning, Endless spells, etc) but the worse nerfs (Look out Sir, no shooting out of combat...).

[Mikester1487]

So right now I'm not diggin the new setup for our points if the video was spot on. Really would have liked to see thunderers become conditional battle line and the iron clad to drop 40 points instead of 20.

I still believe the issue with only zilfin as a big useful sky port has not been resolved, but that will likely require another battle tome to sort out. 

It is pretty cool you can take gun haulers and the escort wing now and not have to spend all your points to do so. However with the changes to shooting on the horizon and endless spells that block line of sight I'm not sure it's going to matter much. 

Overall I'm just feeling a little bummed out. And minus throwing in units that aren't from my tome I don't see a way to give my opponents a good challenge. Hopefully this works out for the better and I'll sit on the side to see what people come up with. 

[mikethefish]

56 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

Yes, I can show you back why it's important to do a bit of research. Inspiring presence brings nothing over the Admirals battleshock immunity. How many units in KO benefit from running 6/rerolling charges - two? Those generic CAs bring very little to a KO general's toolbox.

Realm ones: let's see how many tournaments are played choosing a realm. Wait and see. Anyway, the few already shown sound quite rubbish.

I'm not bashing KO to be cool, but to prove GW dropped the ball by making them comparatively weaker than other armies: no new toys (free summoning, Endless spells, etc) but the worse nerfs (Look out Sir, no shooting out of combat...).

 

Well to counter what you just said.

First - not everyone brings an Admiral.  Second, since every character can use Command Abilities, you can get far better coverage.  Frequently our characters/units are split up on the battlefield, so having Battleshock benefits wherever we like

You say "only two units" like that's a big penalty.  We have a small battletome - two units are a big deal.  Especially when those two units are among the most powerful we can field.  Folks who still Clown Car will be happy rerolling Charge rolls for Riggers, when they are trying to hit something 9" away.

How many tournaments will use Realms?  My guess would be all, since all signs point to Realms not being an optional part of the game now.  Realms are like Terrain effect rules - the default setting is that you use them, especially if Endless Spells are allowed, since they are closely tied together.  Additionally, the few that they have shown seem quite useful.  Chamon grants a 6+ Ignore Wounds save.  How many times have KO players complained about not being resilient?  Now you have a fix if necessary.

Typically I am a fairly cynical person, and am not terribly comfortable being the force of reason/positivity.  But the level of vitriol amongst KO players is really discouraging (especially since we haven't seen any errata yet), and is forcing me to speak to this.   Do you people not see what you have wrought?!?!? 

[eciu]

7 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

Well to counter what you just said.

First - not everyone brings an Admiral.  Second, since every character can use Command Abilities, you can get far better coverage.  Frequently our characters/units are split up on the battlefield, so having Battleshock benefits wherever we like

Well it's Friday so it's a international fish-eating day so I will be easy:

it's that important as Arkanauts/Thunderers are paper thin so if something jumps on them they are probably already dead. Riggers/Wardens might be different but with their move it's hard for anyone bar Magnate to catch up with them. 

Also bit of small nitpick: KO CA are kinda "boring" in terms of they do increase "quality" (straight up boost to mathammer) while not providing alterniteves new ways of achieveing specific goals. The feeling might be twofold as KO "natively" are cut out of whole Magic issue, so CA could be a place where KO excell or have an interesting gameplay options. Navigators/Endrimasters could have some cool/interesting CA but there's no sign of that happening. 

 

Also: superior choice of avatar, you know where it comes from ?:)

[WatcherintheWater]

I'm pretty much fine with the changes overall. Maybe it will encourage more boats on the table, which I think looks pretty cool. The cost of my 2 Frigate list stayed exactly at 2000 (although it might be worth swapping out my 9 Skywardens for 9 more Endrinriggers). The changes to shooting don't bother me too much. Arkanauts and Thunderers rarely survive a combat to shot of of it next turn anyway and we have so many shooting options that by managing the order we select units to shoot, I think we can mitigate that rule pretty well. "Look Out Sir" hurts a little, but honestly I think we are still better equipped to deal with it than most other armies. And if other players start to put a bunch of 5/6 wound casters on the table we have plenty of power left to take them out still.

One side effect of the re-roll charge command is that it makes the difference between using 2 or 3 Grapnels smaller. Assuming you are piling out of a deep striking ship 9" away from your target here are the odds of making the charge:

• 2 Grapnels no command: 80%
• 3 Grapnels no command: 89%
• 2 Grapnels w/command: 87%
• 3 Grapnels w/command: 93%

Pretty marginal, but something to consider.

[mikethefish]

1 hour ago, eciu said:

Well it's Friday so it's a international fish-eating day so I will be easy:

it's that important as Arkanauts/Thunderers are paper thin so if something jumps on them they are probably already dead. Riggers/Wardens might be different but with their move it's hard for anyone bar Magnate to catch up with them. 

Also bit of small nitpick: KO CA are kinda "boring" in terms of they do increase "quality" (straight up boost to mathammer) while not providing alterniteves new ways of achieveing specific goals. The feeling might be twofold as KO "natively" are cut out of whole Magic issue, so CA could be a place where KO excell or have an interesting gameplay options. Navigators/Endrimasters could have some cool/interesting CA but there's no sign of that happening. 

 

Also: superior choice of avatar, you know where it comes from ?:)

 

Sure, and don't get me wrong - I would have liked to have gotten some grand sweeping changes to our stuff.  I feel like KO were released at a bad time - one of the last armies released before the Devs started making armies "for the new edition" (such as Daughters and Deepkin).  So they are a new army, but not new enough to benefit from forward-thinking playtesters.  Things could certainly be better, but I see a whole lot of complaining without a whole lot of real-world table time.

The Devs have a lot of things to juggle with a new edition change, so I think maybe huge sweeping changes were a bit too much to hope for, right at this moment.  Personally I think I can work with the points changes, and just play for the future.  KO is my main army, and I do well enough with it to keep my interest.

And FYI, I got my avatar from justa simple Google search.  It was a while back, but I probably put in "fish man" or something similar.  My last name is actually "Fish", so for my various Forum avatars, I tend to put in some sort of fish-themed image  

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, mikethefish said:

 

Well to counter what you just said.

First - not everyone brings an Admiral.  Second, since every character can use Command Abilities, you can get far better coverage.  Frequently our characters/units are split up on the battlefield, so having Battleshock benefits wherever we like

You say "only two units" like that's a big penalty.  We have a small battletome - two units are a big deal.  Especially when those two units are among the most powerful we can field.  Folks who still Clown Car will be happy rerolling Charge rolls for Riggers, when they are trying to hit something 9" away.

How many tournaments will use Realms?  My guess would be all, since all signs point to Realms not being an optional part of the game now.  Realms are like Terrain effect rules - the default setting is that you use them, especially if Endless Spells are allowed, since they are closely tied together.  Additionally, the few that they have shown seem quite useful.  Chamon grants a 6+ Ignore Wounds save.  How many times have KO players complained about not being resilient?  Now you have a fix if necessary.

Typically I am a fairly cynical person, and am not terribly comfortable being the force of reason/positivity.  But the level of vitriol amongst KO players is really discouraging (especially since we haven't seen any errata yet), and is forcing me to speak to this.   Do you people not see what you have wrought?!?!? 

 

Running for KO is situational in the extreme as nothing in our army gets to ignore the penalties for running. On top of that, but units that DO run more often usually have a way to guarantee a 6 inch run anyways.

 

Our unit that wants to reroll charges will almost never be in range of a hero to benefit from that command ability. All our characters are slow, and riggers are VERY fast. They will outrun their support immediately. It will be very fringe for KO to ever use this ability.

 

KO will just use inspiring presence from their now nerfed khemists. Nerfed again. Because GW never balances to the future. Only the past.

 

Tournaments will not use realms. The realm rules are all entirely and utterly random. Many tournies did not use terrain. I am going to tell you right now that most people playing in a shop won't use realm rules, as most don't use terrain rules right now too.

59 minutes ago, WatcherintheWater said:

I'm pretty much fine with the changes overall. Maybe it will encourage more boats on the table, which I think looks pretty cool. The cost of my 2 Frigate list stayed exactly at 2000 (although it might be worth swapping out my 9 Skywardens for 9 more Endrinriggers). The changes to shooting don't bother me too much. Arkanauts and Thunderers rarely survive a combat to shot of of it next turn anyway and we have so many shooting options that by managing the order we select units to shoot, I think we can mitigate that rule pretty well. "Look Out Sir" hurts a little, but honestly I think we are still better equipped to deal with it than most other armies. And if other players start to put a bunch of 5/6 wound casters on the table we have plenty of power left to take them out still.

One side effect of the re-roll charge command is that it makes the difference between using 2 or 3 Grapnels smaller. Assuming you are piling out of a deep striking ship 9" away from your target here are the odds of making the charge:

• 2 Grapnels no command: 80%
• 3 Grapnels no command: 89%
• 2 Grapnels w/command: 87%
• 3 Grapnels w/command: 93%

Pretty marginal, but something to consider.

 

The changes would be fine. If this were just a GHB with points adjustments. It isn't. This is a new edition. In this edition shooting gets nerfed. But that's not what's really going to do KO in. No, also in this edition summoning is free from points restrictions. And NONE of the summoning armies (barring tzeentch) are seeing any sort of points increase. So, now we are in an edition where the KO's primary phase is worse, and about half our matchups will be against armies putting a few hundred extra points on the table without having any sort of nerf to them or buff to us. And this isn't even regarding the impact that magic has on the table now

 

The point changes, in isolation, would be roughly fine (the warden are dumb, and the khemist change uneeded IMHO. They'd have merely ensured that KO stay firmly mid tier under AoS 1.0 with the clown car the only real tournament list still). But they aren't in isolation. And looking at the changes overall, KO are getting wore as an army. Strictly worse. There's no other way to look at it. And a lot of armies are getting SIGNIFICANTLY better. The slight nerfing, overall, to KO, is MUCH worse when the drastic buffs to Seraphon, all undead armies, Nurgle, Khorne, et cetera, are considered.

[WatcherintheWater]

You definitely may be right, but I'm not ready to give up on the overlords yet. Even though shooting was made more difficult, I think it was also made more important. I think a huge part of the game is going to be getting to your opponet's key hero pieces: Death Generals, Slanns, Wizards, and anything that drives summoning. Even more so than in AoS1 you have to take those things out, and Overlords still well above average ability to do that early in the game with skyhooks, grappels, and ships deepstriking or moving in the hero phase.

Agreed that Zilphin is still the go to skyport, though. Don't think that will change until we get a new battletome. Doesn't seem like GW uses the GHB for much more than points adjustments usually.

 

[mikethefish]

I won't try to argue the merits of Zilfin, but Barak Mhornar is only behind Zilfin by the slimmest of margins.  

[DanielFM]

50 minutes ago, stratigo said:

 

Running for KO is situational in the extreme as nothing in our army gets to ignore the penalties for running. On top of that, but units that DO run more often usually have a way to guarantee a 6 inch run anyways.

 

Our unit that wants to reroll charges will almost never be in range of a hero to benefit from that command ability. All our characters are slow, and riggers are VERY fast. They will outrun their support immediately. It will be very fringe for KO to ever use this ability.

 

KO will just use inspiring presence from their now nerfed khemists. Nerfed again. Because GW never balances to the future. Only the past.

 

Tournaments will not use realms. The realm rules are all entirely and utterly random. Many tournies did not use terrain. I am going to tell you right now that most people playing in a shop won't use realm rules, as most don't use terrain rules right now too.

 

The changes would be fine. If this were just a GHB with points adjustments. It isn't. This is a new edition. In this edition shooting gets nerfed. But that's not what's really going to do KO in. No, also in this edition summoning is free from points restrictions. And NONE of the summoning armies (barring tzeentch) are seeing any sort of points increase. So, now we are in an edition where the KO's primary phase is worse, and about half our matchups will be against armies putting a few hundred extra points on the table without having any sort of nerf to them or buff to us. And this isn't even regarding the impact that magic has on the table now

 

The point changes, in isolation, would be roughly fine (the warden are dumb, and the khemist change uneeded IMHO. They'd have merely ensured that KO stay firmly mid tier under AoS 1.0 with the clown car the only real tournament list still). But they aren't in isolation. And looking at the changes overall, KO are getting wore as an army. Strictly worse. There's no other way to look at it. And a lot of armies are getting SIGNIFICANTLY better. The slight nerfing, overall, to KO, is MUCH worse when the drastic buffs to Seraphon, all undead armies, Nurgle, Khorne, et cetera, are considered.

You took the words from my mouth. Superbly put down.

[Dez]

Mhornar everyone, go read Mhornar again. 

[Midjithero]

5 hours ago, stratigo said:

 

The changes would be fine. If this were just a GHB with points adjustments. It isn't. This is a new edition. In this edition shooting gets nerfed. But that's not what's really going to do KO in. No, also in this edition summoning is free from points restrictions. And NONE of the summoning armies (barring tzeentch) are seeing any sort of points increase. So, now we are in an edition where the KO's primary phase is worse, and about half our matchups will be against armies putting a few hundred extra points on the table without having any sort of nerf to them or buff to us. And this isn't even regarding the impact that magic has on the table now

 

The point changes, in isolation, would be roughly fine (the warden are dumb, and the khemist change uneeded IMHO. They'd have merely ensured that KO stay firmly mid tier under AoS 1.0 with the clown car the only real tournament list still). But they aren't in isolation. And looking at the changes overall, KO are getting wore as an army. Strictly worse. There's no other way to look at it. And a lot of armies are getting SIGNIFICANTLY better. The slight nerfing, overall, to KO, is MUCH worse when the drastic buffs to Seraphon, all undead armies, Nurgle, Khorne, et cetera, are considered.

This part is probably the most important...and well put statement i've seen since yesterdays leaks/releases.

I was optimistic reading out Faction Focus, that maybe someone was just drunk when they finally got around to releasing the KO FF...but no, there was nothing good to really say about KO except "buy Stormcast to be good".

The list i've been running increased 200 points (skywardens, khemists & urbaz because who wants to be like every other zilfin?!)  and with the "free" points other already strong armies received, my current army is unusable.  Now, I would say that 120 points for Skywardens is justified, except they nerfed the damage of the Drill Cannons to d3 instead of 3.  Why?  Oh, is the increased points because Skywardens can retreat and do damage (if you're lucky...and it's only 1 mortal wound, so might as well stay in combat at that point and run away with your grapnel).  I'd take the 20 point change if they were given Battleline!!

I think if people do continue to play KO, lists will change to a new type of clown car - Mhornar w/ Brokk, Admiral, 2 squads of Endrinriggers, Frigate, 1 or 2 navigators, and 3 mandatory Ark Company.

[Bruinin]

FWIW I think our shooting will be fine.  My opponents rarely had characters left after turn 2 unless they hid them effectively.  Everything shoots so I am sure we can screen our stuff effectively to make sure the shots get where they need to go.  I like the changes.  

BUT(assuming no warscroll changes), no additional battline is very frustrating.  Lists are not very interesting.  Increasing costs on skywardens makes them the new thunderers worse than their counterpart and redundant in the army.  I do not remember a game where I didn't wish my wardens were a fewer number of riggers, except for the minimum sized unit to be annoying.  It is quite possible I am missing something as well.

Ships costs are better, but there is very little reason to take them other than aesthetics.  Maybe the Gunhauler for the cannon, but we have more efficient shooting elsewhere.  Outside of Zilfin, I find ships are just battalions, they let you drop faster and provide a couple of shots/bonuses.  They provide minimal mobility to the army.  I mean sure I can have the frigate try to grab an objective but wouldn't 6 more riggers be better.  Has anyone ever embarked units after they dropped them?  Has anyone ever kept units in the boat beyond turn one and not regretted it?

I feel like the best list is 1-2 Khemist, 3 arks and riggers.  Not really what I signed up for and definitely not what it was at release.

 

 

[Barkanaut]

I want great ships to be the theme. Why have they been ****** from release? I think if this is what GW is doing we need to pester them for another ko release as this army is unacceptably bad. We need melee troops. We need cheaper dedicated shooting ships. We need more anti-magic units. 

 

We’re too limited in our army comp right now. Also everything is terribly kvercosted from what I’ve seen. The KO in 2.0 are the Tau of 8th edition lol. Tau even with codex still a little weak and need buffs. Why does every army I make become ******. 

[Clan's Cynic]

16 minutes ago, Barkanaut said:

I want great ships to be the theme. Why have they been ****** from release? I think if this is what GW is doing we need to pester them for another ko release as this army is unacceptably bad. We need melee troops. We need cheaper dedicated shooting ships. We need more anti-magic units. 

 

We’re too limited in our army comp right now. Also everything is terribly kvercosted from what I’ve seen. The KO in 2.0 are the Tau of 8th edition lol. Tau even with codex still a little weak and need buffs. Why does every army I make become ******. 

Right now Kharadrons are all style and very little substance.

I think the inherent problem with the ships is that, logically, they ought to be a 'class' of model unto themselves akin to flyers in 40k (not the exact rules, but being separate from other vehicle types). The problem is that in the framework of AoS being a pretty damn simple game they ultimately suffer from just being a giant model that has a lot of wounds and weapons. That's not to say it couldn't work and the Ironclad is certainly testament to the potential of actually having - almost - viable airships, but I think the problem is the that core of the Kharadron theme really struggles with the gameplay itself. 

• Airships don't really 'fly' because anybody and everybody can engage with them, even if the Goblin Grot with a spear literally can't reach the damn model.
• Crewmen can't shoot from the airships, despite this occurring in almost literally every single piece of Kharadron artwork.
• Airships don't function as effect transports, because the crew can't act when they deploy and are already glass peashooters.
• 2.0 makes it apparent that GW don't  want shooting to be as dominant a part of the game as it was prior, which is the Kharadron niche (which they were already mediocre at).
• No magic has already been discussed. The problem isn't so much that Kharadrons lack it, but that Dwarfs weathered it by having great anti-magic, which Navigators are a poor imitation of.

I think the Kharadrons needs reworking from the ground up. Their problems don't end at their airships being kind of poor because the theme and the mechanics in there current form will perpetually be at odds with one another. Now, some may be against this because it runs the risk of the Shiny Toy Creep we saw in 40k (Flyers -> Knights -> non-Apocalypse Lords of War) but considering airships are a Kharadron exclusive thing that no other army will likely get, I think it would be fine. AoS and 40k now lack USR anyway, so if people don't want to contend with learning new Airship rules- well, just don't play Kharadrons.

Whilst they're at it, give Dwarfs Duradin a shared Runic System with unique spells for the individual battletomes.

 

[Barkanaut]

I think the simplest thing is to give them -1 to hit from non-flyers. Or something like 40k flyers. It’s sad to see GW answer for the ko is to buy Stormcast. If you released more ko that fixes army holes we would buy them instantly. SC look it,y and clash with the army. 

[Malakithe]

3 hours ago, Barkanaut said:

I think the simplest thing is to give them -1 to hit from non-flyers. Or something like 40k flyers. It’s sad to see GW answer for the ko is to buy Stormcast. If you released more ko that fixes army holes we would buy them instantly. SC look it,y and clash with the army. 

If you play Order thats GW answer to everything...buy more SCE

[Baron Klatz]

Haha, Seraphon and Sylvaneth seem to be doing okay without needing Azyr's knights in their ranks.
I think a little warscroll tweaking is all the Overlords really need barring a good ghb3 surprise.

Could get lucky and see some heroes with the next ShadeSpire wave but I'm really doubtful they'll be used like that even if they do show up.

[stratigo]

watching endless spells in action a few times now, things are even worse than I thought. These spells are REALLY damaging or really beneficial and it's real easy for the controller to utilize them to make it uncounterable and, as far as I can tell with RaW, dwarf armies can't dispel them

 

[Trayanee]

13 hours ago, stratigo said:

Tournaments will not use realms. The realm rules are all entirely and utterly random. Many tournies did not use terrain. I am going to tell you right now that most people playing in a shop won't use realm rules, as most don't use terrain rules right now too.

2

This is not likely. Most tournaments used terrain rules unless you are speaking about 6 man tourneys in a local shop. Also GW is sure to use these rules in their own tournaments which will very likely make most GT organizers give it at least one go and If that happen, local tournaments will follow because these are used as a preparation for GTs

[stratigo]

1 minute ago, Trayanee said:

This is not likely. Most tournaments used terrain rules unless you are speaking about 6 man tourneys in a local shop. Also GW is sure to use these rules in their own tournaments which will very likely make most GT organizers give it at least one go and If that happen, local tournaments will follow because these are used as a preparation for GTs

I flat out don't think realms for the battlefield are a matched play option. You choose the realm your army is from in matched, but fighting in a realm I don't think will be a thing outside a few outliers

[Baron Klatz]

A realm your army is "from"? How would that work?

I understand the relics implied that but endless spells and the new 49 spells seem to be dependent on the realm you're fighting In as they're drawing magic from it. That seems to indicate a push in that direction.

[Trayanee]

7 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

A realm your army is "from"? How would that work?

I understand the relics implied that but endless spells and the new 49 spells seem to be dependent on the realm you're fighting In as they're drawing magic from it. That seems to indicate a push in that direction.

Its for the artifacts...