Do the starter set contents and start collecting boxes work?

[Nin Win]

7 hours ago, someone2040 said:

I have to really wonder what you have against the Tale of 4 Painters.

I thought I was clear earlier. I didn't like how it quickly exploded into a huge model count.  The painting to a plan would have been a lot more meaningful had any of them actually stuck to a plan instead of just piling in models as fast as possible.  I went into the series expecting a good representation of what it might be like for a new player, but quickly realized it was probably about selling 40k players on the idea of making huge AoS armies as fast as possible.  They are probably the largest audience of White Dwarf so it's a natural place to promote AoS to them.

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It seems the root cause is that you're not happy with the cost of entry into where you're figuring the real game starts. Yes, Warhammer is an expensive hobby. You need to understand that before you get in. It is going to be more expensive than your other games you've talked about. You can play it at smaller points limits, and it's perfectly fine to do so. However, you need to figure out what level you and your gaming associates will play the game, figure out an army, and see if it fits your budget.

I'm am totally okay with putting in hundreds for great models over time.  I just don't want a watered down game experience during the months between having no miniatures and having a huge collection.  And I don't want to go with a starter product if it doesn't work.  If the game experience of the starter set or start collecting armies wasn't the full game (sadly, like the new Flames of War starter), then I'd want to start with individual unit boxes, right?

[Nin Win]

3 hours ago, Popisdead said:

They sure are.  

Even as someone who has been in this hobby for 30 years and wants to shrink my collection those Get Starting boxes are tempting every time I go into the local GW.

That's cool to hear that they are something someone with a larger collection would actually want.

Everything I'm reading so far points to them being exactly what they should be.  A box of models with full rules that make a part of a collection that won't necessarily be seen as "basic" or watered down when it comes to gameplay.  While it does look like there can be some similarity from one person's army to the next when the start collecting set makes such a tempting starting point, it's probably not going to be as bad as earlier editions of GW's games where every new person you face is playing Empire or Orcs because those were the two armies in the only starter product back in the day.

I played 40k 10 or so years ago and I think the starter at the time had tyranids and ultramarines.  I went to a few new person league days at a local shop and it was bugs vs bugs, marines vs marines and marines vs bugs, all day long.  And everyone's army had the same core stuff.  If their start collecting boxes and free rules were available then, I imagine there would have been a lot more variety.

Nurgle vs Ironjawz is the only question now.

[Spinsane]

@Nin Win, I'm trying to make sense of your complaints and I have to admit, I'm not sure what it is exactly you don't like about the AoS Starter boxes of all kinds... What is it that makes those FoW starters so damn great, that the AoS starters don't have?

One thing the FoW starters DON'T have that the AoS ones do, and it's a very, very big one for a vast majority of players, is an easily accessible playerbase... Sure there are FoW players aplenty, but from what I've seen (here in Montréal anyway), most tend to play amongst themselves; they know each other and don't get much support from the shops since it's a far less popular scale.

Walking into a game shop on wargames night, I'm almost sure to find at least one player there with an AoS army (although he might already be playing something else). If I go there with a FoW army hoping to make new friends and get a pick-up game, chances are I'll be disapointed...

[Nin Win]

43 minutes ago, Spinsane said:

@Nin Win, I'm trying to make sense of your complaints and I have to admit, I'm not sure what it is exactly you don't like about the AoS Starter boxes of all kinds... What is it that makes those FoW starters so damn great, that the AoS starters don't have?

The current FoW starter set (El Alamein) is an example of one that doesn't give you the real game.  The previous one (the larger Open Fire set) did.  My questioning of people here and reading things all over the place has lead me to the conclusion that the AoS starter and start collecting boxes are on the good side of the starter box spectrum and give you a non-watered down approach to getting into the game.  This is not something I knew when I made the first post of the thread.

I don't know if I have any complaints.  I'm disappointed with those magazine articles, but that was simply a result of them being about something other than what I would have liked, and what the editors chose for it makes sense given the nature of WD magazine, its target audience and its role as marketing material.

I had some concerns about AoS scaling well at different sizes, but I'm finding threads, blog posts, youtube videos, facebook posts and so on about people loving smaller games as much as larger ones.  Seeing rules like the daemon summoning and 20+ model unit bonuses lead me to believe that the game might really break down in certain situations, but seeing how they dealt with summoning in matched play made me realize why it's not handled the same way in open or narrative play.  It's okay if a string of dice leads a sorcerer to dump a million daemons onto the battlefield.  In that game, the story was about an explosion of daemons killing everything and not about one player or the other winning at a competition.

Everyone in this thread has been awesome and helped me understand the view point of people with greater familiarity with the game.  I had questions about the utility of the starter sets going forwards that you really can't know the answers to in advance as a new player and they were answered.

[Galas]

2 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Just to jump in as this seems to have veered towards the "build a matched play army" conversation.  The following spreadsheet exists on Google Sheets:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wl3zJzmXcXrievqvnoqtlOMHwG3-SCtRXMWfKFQ2ZVw/edit#gid=0

This contains a number of suggested 1000 point armies for people just getting into the hobby and don't want to sell a kidney or their first-born.  Now I'm not going to suggest that they're necessarily top-end competitive, however for people starting out it's a fantastic guide on what bits to pick up and get going - all at a sensible price point.

The Fyreslayers one its depressing, and it will be worse with the reduction in points. And then people don't know why very few people play the fire dwarfs  

[Robzilla]

To the OP:

Speaking from someone who has been in the hobby 18 years (that's sobering) and is only just now warming to AOS (it took a while, but now it's love!) I cannot recommend some* of the starter sets enough. 

For me, the mark of a good start collecting point is "would I buy this twice?" 

It's generally my approach to starting a new army, I want the core of the force taken care of in a cost effective manner so I can start buying nicer units to treat myself with. Two start collecting boxes or starter kits should in an ideal world would take care of this, and give me a couple of cool units in the bargain)   With that said, still only go for the minis you like, rather than what is cost effective mind. 

 

To put it into context, I bought six Spire of Dawn boxes (back when it was called island of blood) and was extremely happy with the purchase, with barely any models of either army being wasted. 

 

Likewise,  now I plan to pick up two of the main starter sets to give me a solid core to my forces. Going to work on the stormcast models first, and move onto the bloodhound at some point in the future

I don't consider any units to be wasted per say, (with the exception of a character or two maybe, but in this hobby you will grow to love having spare parts so no real hardship considering the excellent value! 

 

In short, other than one or two of the death starter sets, you're in pretty safe territory. From what you have said though I imagine a relatively small army in terms of model count may be your preferred choice (on account of the manner in which you chose to paint them) 

My own personal recommendations to get you going based on the above:

Stormcast Eternals (main starter set) 

Ironjawz (a start collecting box, plus a box of brutes maybe) 

A nurgle  force - you have a lot of options here actually! You could go daemons, or mortals, or combined. The blight kings box is lovely, so I would pick up one or two. Then either a slaves to darkness start collecting box, or a nurgle demons start collecting box. 

 

There are other elite armies out there too of course, but the above ones have newer models, very dynamic minis (even in the starter set) and a host of paint scheme opportunities. 

 

Hope this has helped! 

 

Oh and when you do decide on an army, be sure to let us all know! 

[Sleboda]

16 hours ago, Nin Win said:

It's okay if a string of dice leads a sorcerer to dump a million daemons onto the battlefield.  In that game, the story was about an explosion of daemons killing everything and not about one player or the other winning at a competition.

Yep. Three ways to play.

Narrative - Come up with a story and play a game to see the result

Open - Use which ever models you have in your collection, and play what ever sort of scenario you want

Matched - Uses points and restrictions to allow more structured play against anybody

++ Edited by Mod ++

[Baardah]

My Teo cents:

the real game for me is if you have a force that can participate in all or most phases of the game. Now I used to play wood elves in 5th through 8th edition, so Sylvaneth became natural (get the pun) for me to choose in AOS. 

With that starter box you participate in all phases of a turn except shooting. Now if you add a box of kurnoth hunters and assemble them with bows you'll have a force that have something to do in all phases and thus gives you the whole experience. Points or gamesize is not that important. 

Smaller games can even be more tactical as you won't have all tools available as you can have in larger games

[swarmofseals]

7 hours ago, Nin Win said:

1.Their own article series about building a new army was a mad rush to a large model count.  

2.And I'm seeing things like "if this unit contains 20 or more models" or "If successfully cast, you can set up a unit of up to 10" or "If the result of the casting roll was 11 or more, set up a unit of up to 20 instead."  It seems to me that if you can just suddenly add a unit of 10 demons to an army then the game needs to be of sufficient size that doing so wouldn't make things collapse.   ... So how does that mesh with having a chaos sorcerer rolling two dice and getting 10 daemons every time they roll over 6 and are not beaten by an opponent's roll (assuming there even is an enemy wizard within 18")?  Or the rules that seem to encourage 20+ strong units?  It's totally possible that the designers set out to make a game that plays well with a huge amount of models, but actually plays better with a smaller amount? Do players have to compensate for things like that by agreeing not to daemon summon?  Or is it super easy to get wizards within 18" of a summoner?

3. My main concern is that if I spend the time to do scale figure oil painting techniques on every surface of every miniature will I ever get to the full game or will I be playing a shadow of the real thing?  And just how much do things break down when you have rules that are geared at large games with big units but you don't play that way?

4. Do these start collecting forces fade into irrelevancy because of the sheer model number the full game needs?  Did they choose the models with the simplest rules for the start collecting forces?  When I read the warscolls for some of the units in the start collecting box and some of the units not in those boxes, I honestly can't tell if they selected the models with the simplest rules for the most newb friendly game possible.  I hope they didn't, but I don't know the game well enough to say.

5. Sorry if people find I'm being too thorough or if my standards are too high, but there are just so many gaming options for me to choose from.  I've been enjoying the AoS audio books and like what I've read so far, but there are things I just can't know as someone who is new.  I would be very disappointed to spend the time on painting all my miniatures for them to feel pointless on the table top.  Like where the front rank of an old WHFB mattered but the rest could have been replaced by a wound counter or spin down d20 to count unit strength.  Or where parts of the old battleforce boxes for 40k would just sit on people's shelves.

 

DISCLAIMER: I started writing this post this morning and then had to leave the house before finishing. There are tons more replies now and I don't have time to read them all, so I apologize if I make points that have already been made by others!

Don't worry, I get why you'd be contemplative about making a decision like this. There are a lot of options in the wargaming market right now and it's not like the level of investment is small! I'm not sure how to break up your post into smaller quotes like you did for mine (haven't used this BB system elsewhere), so I numbered the points to address and will go point by point below.

1. I haven't read the article series you are referring to, but in my multiple decades of playing GW games I can safely say that some significant percent of what GW publishes can be a little bit crass on the marketing side. No doubt the article in question was trying to get people excited to buy and paint a ton of models. Also, I'm not sure if it was published before or after the General's Handbook came out. Before the GHB there was no pointing system in place -- you just took whatever models you wanted and hashed it out with your opponents. In such a system new play groups could very quickly turn into an arms race if people weren't levelheaded. While some people do enjoy that style of play, it's a distinct minority now that points values have returned to the game. You'll need the General's Handbook to get the full set of matched play rules but you can see the points values at www.scrollbuilder.com.

 

2. Summoning abilities are really not a problem if you are using matched play (ie: points). In matched play you have to pay for any unit you add to the table, so if you want to summon things during the game you have to set aside points ahead of time. That means you start with less on the table. This can be strategically useful as it allows you to summon units into key positions during the battle and also gives you some flexibility on what you summon (you just have to set aside the points, not say ahead of time exactly what will be summoned). The downside of course is that your summons can fail, your wizards can get killed, and you start with less on the table. So it's situationally powerful but with a significant risk. In Open Play (IE: no points, take whatever you want), on the other hand, summoning is MASSIVELY overpowered as you might imagine. This is one reason why people tend to play Matched Play instead of Open. As to the other case you mentioned (warscrolls that give bonuses for larger unit sizes), this is a very important balancing mechanism to make sure that basic warscrolls retain versatility in larger games. For Matched Play, even in large games you are required to take some basic units (I describe this more below). The unit size bonuses allow basic troops to compete in combat with monsters and more elite units. If your basic unit costs 80 points for 10 guys, you want a block of 40 of them (320 points) to have some ability to take on a 320 point monster or a smaller, more elite unit in the same point range. Similarly, it would be silly if basic troops in minimum size units were able to take on much more expensive elites/heroes/monsters. Just because they can't win that fight directly doesn't mean that they aren't useful though! Remember that killing the opponent is not really the objective in most battleplans.  Using sacrificial units tactically can make a huge difference. 

 

3. This is a very valid concern. If you insist on playing only with painted models and paint to a high standard, then it's going to take some time investment to get your force on the field. The problem isn't really the number of models (you can field a low model count army that is very effective in many factions) but the level of detail. GW miniatures tend to be very detailed and there is a lot of possibility for customization, conversions and kitbashes that you won't see as often in historical titles. This is a double edged sword as the models look awesome, but they take more time to paint than simpler kits.

 

4. Absolutely not. The starter boxes do not become irrelevant in larger games. The way that matched play works requires everyone to take a certain number of basic "battleline" choices. What counts as battleline varies based on your faction. So even in very high point level games you will have some number of basic troops (and like I said earlier, basic does NOT mean worthless. There are some battleplans where your basic infantry will be very useful, and even in plans where they aren't particularly important they still have uses even in minimum sized units. ) In smaller point value games you probably aren't going to be fielding huge blocks of troops, so those 10-20 man units you find in the Start Collecting boxes will fit right in. At higher point levels you typically have a choice of either taking larger blocks of basic troops (which is a larger investment in points but makes them more powerful) or taking fewer basic troops and focusing more on elites. In this case, that 10 or 20 man squad from your SC box is still something you will be playing with. As to the question of simplicity, it varies by box. Usually SC boxes contain some unit of basic infantry, some kind of character, and some kind of elite unit (a monster, a unit of elite cavalry or infantry, or something similar). Usually the basic infantry will have relatively simple rules, although that doesn't necessarily mean that the unit is boring. Take Sylvaneth Dryads for example -- they have a bunch of special rules that can make them quite interesting even though they are still a basic unit. It's rare to see a Sylvaneth list at the 2000 point level that doesn't take at least one unit of Dryads. The hero may or may not have simple rules. Some heroes are mostly focused on combat while others are more support focused. The support ones will probably have more complicated rules. The elite unit or monster really varies a lot by faction. Some of the SC boxes have straightforward models in this slot while others are more complicated. It's definitely not the case that GW has focused these kits on only the simplest of models. The mortarchs in the Skeleton Horde box, the Mortis Engine/Coven Throne in the Malignants box, and the Treelord/Treelord Ancient/Durthu kit in the Sylvaneth box are just a few examples of models with complex rules and complex usage that are included in the SC series. 

One thing to keep in mind is that even though the SC boxes are advertised as containing a specific set of models, they actually contain complete kits. So for example, the Start Collecting: Skeleton Horde box is advertised as containing Arkhan the Black, 10 Skeleton Warriors, and 5 Black Knights. In reality, the Skeleton Warriors can be assembled with either blades or spears, the Black Knights can be assembled as either Black Knights or Hexwraiths, and Arkhan the Black can be assembled as Arkhan, Neferata, or Mannfred. Similarly, with the Start Collecting: Daemons of Khorne set you can assemble the Blood Throne as either a Blood Throne or a Skull Cannon.  What makes this even better is that in many cases you can creatively use the leftover bits, particularly if you have some skill with greenstuff and conversions. For example, if you can manage to pick up an extra steed or two somewhere you can use the two mortarch riders that you don't use in the Skeleton Horde kit as mounted Vampire heroes. If you assembled the Black Knights, you can use convert the hexwraith riders into a couple of spirit hosts by adding some greenstuff. If you assemble your Blood Throne as a Skull Cannon, you can use the herald that comes with the Blood Throne kit as a Herald of Khorne on foot. All of these will require you to get some extra bases, but it can really help you squeeze some more value out of these kits.

5. Specifically to your point about back ranks basically being glorified wound counters in WHFB, in AOS there is a lot more freedom of movement so this doesn't tend to be an issue. You can radically alter the shape of your units over the course of the game in order to fill various needs. Board presence is a very important tactical factor as the positioning of your units can restrict your opponent's movement and influence the pace of combat. Even models that aren't fighting are doing something by taking up space on the board (and that space can't be easily represented by a template because you can alter the shape subtly or drastically over the course of the game. As far as parts of boxed sets sitting on your shelf, well, this is a risk in almost any game you play. You may start playing a faction and find that you drastically prefer the playstyle afforded by certain units over others and end up sidelining the ones you don't like as much. Unless you are playing at a very competitive level, most if not all units will retain usefulness regardless of the scaling of the game. Sometimes your units WILL feel pointless on the table top because your dice are cold and your opponent is running well. Sometimes you will get outplayed and have the urge to blame it on your army choices. Sometimes you will take a force that is ill suited to the battleplan that you end up playing. The next game that same unit though might be the one that saves your bacon, captures a key objective or blocks the movement of an enemy monster long enough for you to reposition and absorb the impact without losing ground. 

[Oppenheimer]

On 10/04/2017 at 5:34 PM, Nin Win said:

Do you think your experience of repetitiveness comes from the fact that it is also your faction and you have experience with the full variety of it, so the constant appearance of the start collecting contents grates on you?  Do you have the same experience when you see the same units over again when it is a faction you don't play or are not super familiar with?

Yes. I think that is why it bothers so much for Death. But, I still notice it with other factions such as bloodbound and stormcast too. Those two are particularly egregious because it's just the starter set over and over again. 

[Nin Win]

10 hours ago, Robzilla said:

To the OP:

Speaking from someone who has been in the hobby 18 years (that's sobering) and is only just now warming to AOS (it took a while, but now it's love!) I cannot recommend some* of the starter sets enough. For me, the mark of a good start collecting point is "would I buy this twice?" 

That sounds like a perfect metric.  A starter that includes stuff you won't really want to use later on nor stuff that has been chosen for its simplistic/partial rules isn't really going to pass that check.

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From what you have said though I imagine a relatively small army in terms of model count may be your preferred choice (on account of the manner in which you chose to paint them) 

My own personal recommendations to get you going based on the above:

Stormcast Eternals (main starter set) 

Ironjawz (a start collecting box, plus a box of brutes maybe) A nurgle  force - you have a lot of options here actually! You could go daemons, or mortals, or combined. The blight kings box is lovely, so I would pick up one or two. Then either a slaves to darkness start collecting box, or a nurgle demons start collecting box. 

That's the same short list I have come to as well.  With the stormcast eternals slowly drifting off the list and Tzeentch creeping onto it.  I actually really like the metallic colour schemes for the stormcast and while there is still tons of blending work to be done on the non-metallic parts, the shading and weathering of the metal areas is pretty much the same hobby experience I already have with tank models for historical games.  While oil painting is where the non metallic metal techniques are originally borrowed from, I've never really enjoyed them in person.  They photograph great, but I don't really want an army of them in person.

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Oh and when you do decide on an army, be sure to let us all know! 

I'm going to the game store this Saturday.  Hopefully something I want will be in stock.  Ironjawz might be just in the lead at this point.

 

[Nin Win]

Pointless post edited away

[Nin Win]

10 hours ago, Baardah said:

With that starter box you participate in all phases of a turn except shooting. Now if you add a box of kurnoth hunters and assemble them with bows you'll have a force that have something to do in all phases and thus gives you the whole experience. Points or gamesize is not that important. 

This is an interesting take.  Making sure you can participate in all the phases of the game.

[Nin Win]

10 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Before the GHB there was no pointing system in place -- you just took whatever models you wanted and hashed it out with your opponents. In such a system new play groups could very quickly turn into an arms race if people weren't levelheaded. While some people do enjoy that style of play, it's a distinct minority now that points values have returned to the game. You'll need the General's Handbook to get the full set of matched play rules but you can see the points values at www.scrollbuilder.com.

Thanks.  That's a cool site.  One of the only reasons I'm contemplating going with a GW game again is the total about face on the internet like embracing a site like that rather than sicking lawyers on your most dedicated fans.  And this giving away of the rules and warscrolls compared to charging for every little thing in order to nickle and dime the customer for as much as possible before they can't take anymore.  That seems to have changed rather dramatically.
 

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3. This is a very valid concern. If you insist on playing only with painted models and paint to a high standard, then it's going to take some time investment to get your force on the field. The problem isn't really the number of models (you can field a low model count army that is very effective in many factions) but the level of detail. GW miniatures tend to be very detailed and there is a lot of possibility for customization, conversions and kitbashes that you won't see as often in historical titles. This is a double edged sword as the models look awesome, but they take more time to paint than simpler kits.

What attracts me to GW's miniatures isn't the level of detail but the depth of those details.  The deep parts are almost always really deep and their raised parts quite pronounced.  Even small things like eyes tend to have well defined edges.  This drastically speeds up painting time using wet blending with oils.  I've done some historical figures where the depth of the detail is in scale (as in a piece of cloth folded over is a few microns thick) and while it's all correct, it's awful to paint.  Takes forever when every part of the model essentially becomes freehand painting.  I've also done some historical figures where everything is really deep and paints up super fast.  The GW stuff seems to be consistently good in this regard, with the post Age of Sigmar releases being some of the best examples.

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The starter boxes do not become irrelevant in larger games.
...
Some of the SC boxes have straightforward models in this slot while others are more complicated. It's definitely not the case that GW has focused these kits on only the simplest of models. The mortarchs in the Skeleton Horde box, the Mortis Engine/Coven Throne in the Malignants box, and the Treelord/Treelord Ancient/Durthu kit in the Sylvaneth box are just a few examples of models with complex rules and complex usage that are included in the SC series.  

Thanks!  This is one area where I just can't make an evaluation as a new player.  It's hard to know what the implications of an even lengthily worded rule will be on the table top having no real familiarity with the full game.  

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5. Specifically to your point about back ranks basically being glorified wound counters in WHFB, in AOS there is a lot more freedom of movement so this doesn't tend to be an issue. You can radically alter the shape of your units over the course of the game in order to fill various needs. Board presence is a very important tactical factor as the positioning of your units can restrict your opponent's movement and influence the pace of combat. Even models that aren't fighting are doing something by taking up space on the board (and that space can't be easily represented by a template because you can alter the shape subtly or drastically over the course of the game.

This makes a lot of sense.  I know one of the problems with WHFB was that while you technically had some freedom to change your unit shape, the combat bonuses relied on being so wide and so deep to the point that it was punishing other than to assume the regular formation.  So the back rankers were just reduced to wound counters and rank bonus counters.  And every now and again, a deep flank would get attacked where a shallow one would not have been able to.  And even the look of the models was compromized as them being packed in meant they were obscrued by raised arms, weapons and so forth.  I remember reading lots of instances where people recommended only highlighting or shading the arms, head, shoulders and weapons of anyone not in the front rank.

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As far as parts of boxed sets sitting on your shelf, well, this is a risk in almost any game you play. You may start playing a faction and find that you drastically prefer the playstyle afforded by certain units over others and end up sidelining the ones you don't like as much.

Sure, but I'm talking about the instances where the stuff ends up on the shelf because of rules reasons.  An example from Warmachine/Hordes (at least in the last edition, don't know about the new one) was the 2 player starter boxes.  They came with models that almost universally where the first things people cut from their armies.  They didn't necessarily synergize with the faction as a whole and players who got into the game via these starter sets often found themselves feeling like they had wasted their money when it came to game play.  Part of me thinks they chose the contents of those starter sets based on the huge amount of those units they had sitting in their warehouse unsold.

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 Unless you are playing at a very competitive level, most if not all units will retain usefulness regardless of the scaling of the game. Sometimes your units WILL feel pointless on the table top because your dice are cold and your opponent is running well. Sometimes you will get outplayed and have the urge to blame it on your army choices. Sometimes you will take a force that is ill suited to the battleplan that you end up playing. The next game that same unit though might be the one that saves your bacon, captures a key objective or blocks the movement of an enemy monster long enough for you to reposition and absorb the impact without losing ground.

While that really isn't what I'm getting at, I think it's still an important thing to keep in mind.  I'm talking about when the rules push the model count so high that the individual models are no longer really relevant.  It sounds like from how people position their models and carefully move them in close combat, that might not be an issue.  That a well positioned grunt in the right phase can keep the opponent from the perfect spot to place their model in a way that maximizes things for them.  I've read some posts about positioning and combat and it looks like there's some real depth there that is again, not at all apparent to a new player.  The only thing I really had to go off was previous experience with GW games and they haven't always done a great job of making miniatures feel awesome on the table.

I've found that the easiest way to make miniatures seem relevant on the table top is to use rules that scale well and give a full decision making experience to even faceless horde units.  This also has to do with painting.  I don't like the idea of painting up a batch of 10 guys and going all out and then going "well, 20 more of those guys until I have a unit of meaningful size for the table top."  I think WHFB 8th scuttled for a very, very good reason.  As a new person to Age of Sigmar, it's easy to see the same Warhammer name, see rules that reference 20+ models and not understand the implication of model placement, rules that allow units to scale for larger games, etc, and think nothing has really changed.

 

7 hours ago, Oppenheimer said:

Yes. I think that is why it bothers so much for Death. But, I still notice it with other factions such as bloodbound and stormcast too. Those two are particularly egregious because it's just the starter set over and over again. 

I imagine the storm cast eternals are super popular as well, given they are the poster child for the game.  And they seem to always be up against the khorne guys in all the starter products.  Even the new small game with the female stormcast is again, up agaist Khorne.

[Nin Win]

In the end, it's Grandfather's garden for me.  Have a start collecting Nurgle Daemons box en route to my local store.

[Captain Marius]

That was an interesting discussion, i think its fascinating all the different reasons people will choose an army, or even to play the game at all. Cheers for the good read!

[Kaleb Daark]

21 hours ago, Nin Win said:

In the end, it's Grandfather's garden for me.  Have a start collecting Nurgle Daemons box en route to my local store.

Splendid. With all this talk of perfection don't be shy, let's see some of your work then

[Nin Win]

Step 1: get miniatures.

Perfection is also the worst possible goal when it comes to painting miniatures.  As well, one of the reasons I'm starting AoS is that this will be the project where I do more painting wise than previous projects.  I've always shied away from doing anything display quality.   The nurgle stuff will be the first miniatures I do where every surface gets oil wet blending.

While I do love my oil paints, I find I currently mostly only do blending/feathering with them for shading and weathering.  Or the occasional spot highlight.   My current approach is largely speed painting like this (tank comes to about the waist of a liberator):

Spoiler

 

[Urbanus]

Since I was here earlier I wanted to share another point that has come up: Game sizes.

The game really does play well at lower levels. Unless you both have elite armies even 800 points can be a great game. I found this to be a lot different from 8th where I would avoid games under 1500 points.

 

Coming from other wargames the biggest change I found was the speed of which models die. Loosing 16 models in one charge was an insane experiance when it happened for the first time!

 

Oh and welcome to Chaos my slimy brother!

[Nin Win]

My favorite thing reading some of the novels has been just how polite Nurgle characters tend to be.  Reminds me of Vorn the Unspeakable:

The rapid model removal is probably going to take getting used to.  It's one of the reasons that made me wonder about the game and whether or not it makes the models pointless.  Like they do nothing and then get removed in huge masses.  I've since watched some battle reports and while it does happen, there are things that are going on that make it so.  Like truly large number of attacks by other large units.  Or relatively easy to kill swarms of low quality troops.  The game seems to also have its share of really tough and resilient units.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, the ability to dish out huge numbers of dice when you go with 20 or 30 model units is there to make the units an acceptable part of a larger game.  When you take that same ability and bring it down to a small game, it's really no different than bringing a huge hero to a smaller game.

 

 

[Travis Baumann]

I just picked up the Start Playing Box set at my local shop.  I was not really interested in Stormcast or Bloodborne/Khorne but they had it on sale for $75.. that is a lot of miniatures for that amount and once I opened it up and started putting them together, I really like both factions.

I recently subscribed to Azyr through the App so have been having fun plugging in different armies.  Here is what I was able to put together out of the box:

Stormcast Eterenals gives you two units of 5 Liberators which are your most basic infantry unit and needed for the Battle line requirements.  You only get 3 Retributors but the unit is supposed to be 5 in strength so I need to pick up two more (the "Easy to build kit comes with 2 for $15).  You also get a unit of 3 Prosecutors which gives a highly mobile unit with some missile weapons.  You also get a Lord-Celestant on a really cool mount and One Lord-Relictor.  This all amounts to 180 points shy of 1000 point army (and of course your two missing Retributors).  I was looking at a unit of Vanguard Raptors which costs $35.  So for $50 plus the contents of the starter set I can have a 1000 point army that has some missile weapons, some heavy hammering potential, and an awesome looking general.  A good army for about $90 is great and they look fun to paint.

Now the Khorne side you get a lot more miniature count but they do not go nearly as far in points cost: You get two units of 10 Blood Reavers for a solid base infantry setup.  You also get 5 Blood Warriors which look to be elite Chaos warriors.  In addition you get a number of heroes with your general, the Mighty Lord of Khorne (who comes with a pet Flesh Hound), a standard bearer in the Bloodsecrator, A guy they call the Bloodstoker who literally whips them up into a killing frenzy, and finally you get a big beastly killing machine with the Khorgorath.  Seems like a lot of stuff but when you plug this into the App it only comes up to 640 points!  I have a bunch of other chaos things laying around from WHFB days so I threw in a unit of 10 Ungor Beastmen I have around, a unit of 3 Chaos Ogres, and Lord of Chaos on Juggernaut (super old silly looking version from the late 80's) and I am still 20 points shy of 1000 but if I had to buy all that stuff it would be over $120 plus the $37.50 I spent on this half of the starter kit so over $150 for this army.

The best part of this set for me is the fun building and painting the miniatures, they all look cool and I have some ideas of going in a drastically different paint scheme than the box art/painting guides for both forces so even if I do not want to invest further to flesh out these two sides, it was an amazing deal to get each force for less than $40.  They have three more of those sets going for that amount, it is tempting to grab another but all of the heroes on the Khorne side would be unnecessary as they are too unique to have multiples of really.

The Khorne army I listed above though will be at some disadvantages I imagine, no ranged weaponry and no magic... Need to soak up the missiles and magic with the Infantry and Monster so that the elites can get in close and carve up the enemy I guess.