Do the starter set contents and start collecting boxes work?

[Nin Win]

I'm contemplating getting into Age of Sigmar and have some questions about the contents of things like the starter set and the start collecting boxes that can only really be answered by people who have been playing a while.

First question would be:  do the forces in the starter sets work?  Do they actually play against eachother or other armies of the same sort of size in a way that is fun?  That you'd play more than once?

Second would be:  are the start collecting boxes giving enough variety to your local scene?  Or do you just play against the same things over and over again?

If a new player were to grab a starter and say trade one army or the other for more of the one they want, what would you think when you play against them?  Do you feel like they have a real army or is it just a "well, another army based on starter set stuff.  boring!" type experience?

What portion of your last game involved models you or your opponent got out of a start collecting box or a starter set?  Do you wish it was a lower percentage?  Do you think more people would enjoy the game more if they didn't bother with the starter or start collecting sets and made their own collection kit by kit?  Or is it not a problem because most people get the starter or start collecting and it's generally not enjoyable or sufficiently powerful so people move on quickly?

And to close:  After your experience with the game, how do you actually rate the introductory products?

[DynamicCalories]

I can't really answer all of your questions specifically, but I think on a whole the Start Collecting boxes are great. They get you anywhere from 4-600 points of stuff, at a heavy discount (and thus are not particularly balanced too well) or if you're not fussed by matched play, a neat little battalion with some nice fluffy rules. The common knowledge around the Starter set is that A) it's great value and B) the Stormacast far outstrip the Khorne, who need a few key items to work better.

Given that most average armies work around a similar core of battleline and heroes, and factions like Ironjawz and Sylvaneth have a fairly limited model range anyway, it's hard to get around some of the basic set ups, so anything that makes those cheaper is better for new players in my opinion.  It's very easy to take on a few boxes to get up to 1000 points, and that can be done in a conventional or as novel a way possible thanks to the Grand Alliance and Faction allegiances. 

The purpose of them from a new player perspective is to get you a Big Drop like a Carnosaur, Tree Lord or some heavy cavalry, a basic troop type, and a hero, which gives a new player everything they need to have "fun" out of the box, for a decent price. Add in one of the faction's "elite" like Brutez, Hunters, Terradons, Morghasts etc, and you're often playing with a decent slice of the whole pallet that your faction can eventually take.

As for my own personal experience: I bought the Nurgle and StD boxes, a few heroes, and a set of Blightkings. I feel like this has given me a decent overview of what I can expect from these forces, without breaking the bank, though I would love a Rotbringers/Nurgle Mortal box but it seems those Blighty Boys just sell too well to warrant one.

[Urbanus]

I will throw in my two small cents:

1. A lot of the starter boxes seem horribly put together. To me it seems like there is always one unit you only want one of to keep you from just buying three boxes and get playing?

2. The boxes still have the (eternal) problem of being to small to really play with. Sure you can play them and as a new player you would probably have a fun time... The first game, then things would get repetitive VERY quickly...

[Nin Win]

That's a bit troubling.  My time with historicals has left me expecting something around $100 getting 60%+ of what is considered a full size game.  And that the starters would provide a good game experience.  Whether it's the Bolt Action starter armies or the new Flames of War ones or something more obscure.  I may have seriously underestimated how many models make up a true game experience sized game of Age of Sigmar.

I just finished reading part 1 of the army building series in White Dwarf September 2016.  They certainly made it sound like a start collecting box and then a different type of unit added each month would get you the real experience, but now I hear talk about 3x start collecting isn't ideal because of duplicates of models you likely only want one of.  And that they make up 4-600 points and people seem to regard 1500-2000 as the full game.

[Nin Win]

I like about half of the models in terms of aesthetics.  Which is enough for at least a few factions to be sufficiently appealing.  I was actually thinking I wanted to start a project where every single surface on each model gets wet blended/feathered with oil paints like how historical bust/display figure painters do their stuff.  I've been working with oils more and more for weathering and filters and colour modulation effects on my tanks for historical games and have started to get interested in doing whole miniatures that way.

I'm not trying to jump into tournament play.  I just don't want an experience that's shallow because the game is designed for a larger model count and there might not be enough maneuver elements or things to make decisions about in a game quite a bit smaller than the designers envisioned when doing the development work for a game.

I'll take a serious look at the skirmish system and see if this sort of project makes sense for me.  And if the skirmish version addresses the low model count decision reduction issue.  I really don't think a full AoS army approaching 2000 points is going to work for me given the time I want to spend on each miniature.

[Urbanus]

1 hour ago, Nin Win said:

That's a bit troubling.  My time with historicals has left me expecting something around $100 getting 60%+ of what is considered a full size game.  And that the starters would provide a good game experience.  Whether it's the Bolt Action starter armies or the new Flames of War ones or something more obscure.  I may have seriously underestimated how many models make up a true game experience sized game of Age of Sigmar.

I just finished reading part 1 of the army building series in White Dwarf September 2016.  They certainly made it sound like a start collecting box and then a different type of unit added each month would get you the real experience, but now I hear talk about 3x start collecting isn't ideal because of duplicates of models you likely only want one of.  And that they make up 4-600 points and people seem to regard 1500-2000 as the full game.

Just one small comment. I went from 40K to bolt action and the experiance was insane! Startog a decent sized army was sooo quick. Unfortunately no one ai knew liked historical wargaming...

 

Secondly there are some exceptions I know of. The Bloodbound part of the starter set is great! So was Spire of Dawn for skaven. Thats the ones I know of.

As always, if you wanna go cheap, go elite. I dont think storm cast are terribly expencive for example.

[Wraith01]

I bought the AoS Starter Set, Stormcast Eternals Start Collecting and added more units to the Khorne Bloodbound (Blood Warriors, Bloodletters, 5 hero's) I have a blast playing with both armies at 1000 point games. I have played with them to demo the game to friends and family. At the local shop I usually play Khorne against a variety of opponents. I can tell you no one sticks to just a starter set for long.

I'm well on my way to 2000 points with Khorne and will most probably leave them there. Tzeench seams to be tapping at my door. But before starting another army I intend to get 1000 points of Stormcast Vanguard to round that army out at 2k points as well.

[NoElf]

I enjoy the starter sets. Picking up a start collecting nurgle daemons, unit of blightkings and the small starter box had me close enough to 1,000 points and my brother who kicked off with stormcasts has around 750pts of those. So we'll only be doing small battles when we get these painted but that's fine as neither of us has much time and we both enjoy the hobby side more. It's rule of cool for me. I don't care how it works on the battlefield if the mini is ugly or dated I don't want it. 

Next purchase is some varangard 

[someone2040]

1000pts is a good start to the game. I really enjoy building up small armies around this size, and definitely find games can be enjoyable and strategic at this level. Afterwards I start feeling a bit bored with the painting and modelling side and want to move onto different projects...

One thing you do want to keep in mind though is you want a bit of moderation at lower points. It might sound cool to take a Lord Celestant on Star Drake or Archaon at lower points, but it certainly skews the game pretty badly as to whether the opponent has a good answer for it or maybe whether you can contest the right objectives with your limited numbers elsewhere in your army. At lower points, it's harder to have answers for everything, while at higher points it's more natural in list design to figure out how you're going to deal with some of these big monsters.

So that would be my tip. I recently ran a 14 player tournament at 1200pts (using the composition rules for 1k). Everyone had a lot of fun, and there were a lot of diverse and interesting lists there.

[Galas]

I love the Start Collecting! Boxes. Its a fact that the tipical "hero" in the box, its good for the first buy, but if you want to buy more then it devaluates the box. Sometimes this isn't a bad thing, like Arkhan/Neferata/Mannfred, but others, like the Slaves to Darkness Chaos Sorcerrer, its a bit meh. If you don't want more, you can always sell the Hero on Ebay and recover some money!

 

Its likey buying the Starter Set at a discount on a retailer, and then selling the half that you don't want. I bought one for 71€ and then sell the Stormcast Half for 65€ on Ebay, so I bought the Bloodbound half for efectively, 6 €  It needs a bit of Work, but nothing in thits life comes free! You pay with time or money!

[Nin Win]

I don't know if I want to go cheap per se.  I was just hoping the path between the starting point and experiencing the full game was a bit shorter like it is for a lot of games out there.   While I get that people advocating for larger games might be more competitively minded, I am also seeing people who like playing at 1000 points cautioning others about certain choices in each army no longer really being appropriate at that points level.  To the point of using comp rules of some sort.  

Are those fan made ones or from the general's handbook?  I assume they work either way, but I do see the potential problems of wanting to choose things based on how they look and how much I'd like to paint them and then them being unsuitable on the table until I build my way up to a much larger army.

Thanks everyone!

[someone2040]

Didn't mean to sound negative nancy about things, certainly not my intent. Most things in the game are fine, but if you're interested in playing Nagash, Archaon, Celestant on Star Drake, Allarielle, etc they're pretty obviously not meant for small encounters in the game, so while you can take them in said small encounter it may not prove to be the most interesting game.

 

Maybe a good suggestion actually would be to pick up the White Dwarves from the last 6~ish months if you can get them on the cheap. They had the Tale of 4 Warlords for Age of Sigmar, where every Warlord started with a Start Collecting Box if I recall correctly. Good source of inspiration for someone just starting Age of Sigmar. It'd give you a good idea of how people collected and built their Age of Sigmar armies, and you can see if similar things might fit within your budget.

I don't think they used points to balance things out, I think they just painted what they could when they could but with certain guidelines. But if you were interested in seeing how many points each force was at the end you could easily plonk it into ScrollBuilder to find out.

[DeadlySarcasm]

Hey!

First off, Age of Sigmar is an awesome game, in a really good place right now, so you're definitely doing the right thing by jumping in.

So specifically regarding the start collecting boxes, I think they are awesome value and you should get use out of everything in MOST of the boxes. As an avid Ironjawz player, in ALMOST every list I play, I use EVERYTHING in the start collecting Ironjawz box. I know the flesh eater court one is really solid as well. 

[wayniac]

In general IMHO the start collecting boxes are fine as the start to a collection, but really aren't balanced against each other; it would not IMHO be a fun game (in most circumstances) to pit two start collecting boxes against each other in an Open Play type of game.  As for size, that entirely depends on the group.  A lot want to only play 2k or higher points, some prefer 1k points, and some are a mix, and the lucky few who are in areas that don't only play Matched (points) Play you have a lot more variety and flexibility, if you are willing to accept that some games might be imbalanced if you are each playing a starter set and say one additional unit or hero.

For value though they are pretty good for what they are: A introductory purchase for the army to build off of.

[chord]

Some of the start collecting boxes are better than others.  (SCE start collecting is rubbish but a good add-on to the start set). 

Where they shine is not in Matched Play but narrative.  Think up some battleplans, or use some out GHB.  How long can 2units hold out, etc. 

Eventually they become the stepping stone to larger games.

 

[RuneBrush]

Welcome to the fun world of Age of Sigmar

The Start Collecting boxes are indeed a good way of starting to get into the hobby and if there is a group of your who are each planning, they're a really nice way to start and a not horrendous amount to spend to see if you like it.

One of the really nice things about AoS is that there isn't a truly poor unit.  There are some that are perhaps deemed "better", but on the whole most things will at least achieve something in a game.  Although the Start Collecting boxes all come out at differing points values, playing to a battleplan (scenario) will help to balance out any imbalances.  It'll certainly help for long enough until you start expanding your respective forces out.

Most people have their own preferred points banding and you'll find that a 1000 point army may be drastically different to the 2000 point equivalent (sometimes not containing some of the units from the smaller army!).  Personally I'd just jump in a Start Collecting box (as said, between 400 and 600 points) and have a punt with some battleplans

[DynamicCalories]

With regards to concerns of depth, The biggest game I have played was roughly 1200 points, and when you've got a few units in combat the combat order starts to become increasingly complex. I even managed to use a small unit to block a charge so that an elite unit could head in to mop things up, whilst still having 2 units and 3 heroes to shuffle around. Unless you go ultra-elite in your picks, you get plenty of options at low points levels.

[Brian Andrews]

The AoS start collecting box is currently the only place to get some of the key characters for both armies in the box. For Stormcast, it's the only place to get a Lord Relictor. For Khorne Bloodbound its the only place to get a Bloodsecrator, Bloodstoker, Korgorath and Mighty Lord of Khorne. Obv you might find these models on eBay. With both armies having access to the new style codexes with artefacts and traits they are pretty strong. The start collecting boxes are ok but the Stormcast box isn't as good value as it was since their range was repackaged.

[Grimma]

...

[Nin Win]

The Nurgle daemons start collecting box is tempting me.  It's one of the ones where the line of miniatures is well covered by the start collecting boxes.  Like the ironjawz.  It also looks like there's some sort of natural connection with the mortal nurgle forces with the summoning spells.

The miniatures also seem ideal for my plan of using oil paints.  The putrid nature of the subject matter makes all the oil paint weathering and grime techniques I know from painting tanks directly relevant.  And wet blending with oils might be very appropriate for making parts look infected by transitioning from pale green to infected pink.

My playgroup largely plays X-Wing, Flames of War, board games, etc,. though I know a few people already are starting up AoS and there are two local stores that have AoS going on every week.

I'm not necessarily looking for the start collecting sets to be competitive, but to be not boring.  I remember in previous versions of both 40k and WHFB that the starter sets offered such a better value than the individual sets that so many people's armies were basically the same.  Get a starter, trade one army for the other and that makes up a good portion of your base army.  And the game experience ends up being pretty repetitive.

My other concern is whether or not a 1000ish points ends up providing the depth needed for real decision making during play.  It sounds like it does, but that a low model count game with big hero models might have issues.  I just need to be mindful that in lower point games, a single powerful model can skew things.

[Nin Win]

So say you and some friends were going to get together and play something around 1000 points (whether or not you are playing matched play, that sort of model count).  And your opponent showed up with basically the start collecting box and then a smattering of things needed to get to that rough game size (or points value).

Would you feel that you were playing the real game, or some sort of boring introductory simplified version?

There's that series in White Dwarf where they started with the collecting box and added to it.  What would be your assessment of the experience of the average gamer doing likewise?

[Galas]

To me, the most enjoyable experience of Age of Sigmar gameplay its the Hinterlands variation with a Game Master, so, the "real game" depends of what you want  

[Tuluth]

It's the real game, as much as possible. There is a good reason why most people first learning to play learn with one or two units of similar types. And once you start looking past the GHB scenarios, and to the scenarios that come in the campaign and army books, which aren't designed for balanced armies, it becomes better. Just know that there is a large strength disparity depending on the Start Collecting! box.

I can't speak for most boxes, but I can for the Ironjawz, Sylvaneth, and a little bit for Skeleton Horde. Skeleton Horde, you get the old skeleton models, a large beautiful behemoth that builds into 3 different characters, and the black knights which I believe builds into 2 different units as well. Sylvaneth, you get the new Branchwych model, dryads (older models) and the very nice Treelord, which builds into 3 different characters. This is possibly one of the best boxes for synergies and strength. Depending on your friends, you may be able to substitute just a piece of cloth for a Wyldwood, and get a lot of strength from the entire box. Ironjawz, you get the new Warchanter, and 3 Goregruntas (beautiful models). The 'Ardboys are older models, that sadly show their age next to the others in the box. Conversely, they can end up being the better unit in games. If you enjoy painting larger models overall, then the Ironjawz box will probably be your best purchase. You'll also find that Orc heads from other GW kits and 3rd party kits are easily substituted.

[Oppenheimer]

Start collecting are a good value. That's relatively speaking of course since GWs prices are outrageous if you stop to think about it. Selling bits of unassembled plastic for that much money. Yikes. But I try to not think about it. 

However, your question about sameness really hit home. I am so sick of seeing the same units every time. Especially with Death. I'm a Death player from 8e. And at my local GW you never see anything but FEC, Deathrattle and Malignants. You never ever see deathwalker, morgasts, vampire lords on foot, bat swarms etc. It's just the same stuff over and over again. Whatever is in the starter sets.

[Nin Win]

3 hours ago, Auticus said:

Its as much "the real game" as anything really.  They would be unoptimized lists, but as long as everyone is running unoptimized lists, I think it would be fun.

Again, I'm not talking about optimization or tournament competitiveness.  By "the real game" I mean in contrast with a introductory experience that doesn't have the full decision making range of the other products.  For example, the new Flames of War El Alamein starter has just tanks.  No infantry, no artillery, no gun emplacements.  So that's an extreme example of a starter not giving "the real game."

Looking at the war scrolls it certainly looks to me that each of the things in the starter have the same sort of rules as the entire game, but I simply don't have enough experience with the system to make the evaluation.  Did they choose the contents of the start collecting boxes because they are the most simple choices for each faction, or do they play as fully as units not included in the box?  Or do they have a limited experience (even if it is not as extreme as the flames of war example).

That's what I'm getting at.