The 2024 Pricing Update Topic

[Gitzdee]

12 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

Great advice. Yeah, warcry is the main game I've been playing this year. I'm more of a skirmish player than a mass battle one, and like narratives rather than competitive.  So it's nice to be able to do lots of quick games in a session, and really tell a story. i keep meaning to post the battle report from my last warcry campaign actually. I haven't even scratched the surface of the warbands I can build from my models, so lots of potetial there without spending any money. 

We got really into x-grave games a couple of years ago and played most of them, but it's been a while since I dusted off the book. As you say the warband options there are even more varied than warcry. 

We're also planning a full tilt tournament later in the summer and busy painting knights for that so no shortage of options even ignoring the GW hype cycle!

Seems like u didnt need any advice XD.

[EccentricCircle]

1 minute ago, Gitzdee said:

Seems like u didnt need any advice XD.

Ha ha yeah, you pretty much recommended precisely what I've been doing! I'm thinking of trying Silver Bayonet soon too. That should be fun. 

If anyone knows a good ancients ruleset which is quick and fun for doing Bronze age type stuff then that would be appreciated. This is probably the wrong forum to ask, but I've got a bit of research ahead of me there I think!

[Marcvs]

17 hours ago, Sarouan said:

If you want to pay your employees fair and generous salaries, you have to give them a rise each year because of inflation : that increases the costs and will unavoidably get on the product prices as well

That would sound much better if wages (from everything we know from former employees) were anywhere in the ballpark of "generous" and (more importantly for the present discussion) GW was giving their employees pay rises in line with inflation. They are not, tbf just like most other employers, but still: prices are increasing faster than GW wages.

17 hours ago, Sarouan said:

really don't see how actually a miniature producer can't increase their prices constantly in this world, unless they want to be in the red or earn less.

And that's your answer to why people (in your view, naively) are unhappy with these decisions: given that GW is very profitable, the price increases are not meant to ensure their survival, they are meant to make more money at the expenses of their customers. Whether or not you you think the price hike is "normal" or "natural", I think it should be easy to understand how anger and frustration are also "normal" or "natural" reactions to a egoistical behaviour.

Edited May 10 by Marcvs

[Sarouan]

You're missing the point. It's nice and all to say GW is very profitable and price increases is not meant to ensure their survival (though it's always easy to say that without any numbers, as usual - after all, those we have aren't the current ones only GW has), but fact is we currently live in a capitalist world that is on crisis, with price increasing everywhere in every field. You know it won't change tomorrow in a snap of fingers, and you definitely don't bring any working solution in such a way as well - short or long term speaking.

That's why I say I really don't see how a miniature producer can't increase their prices constantly in this world. The conditions aren't meant yet for anything else.

[Flippy]

41 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

You're missing the point. It's nice and all to say GW is very profitable and price increases is not meant to ensure their survival (though it's always easy to say that without any numbers, as usual - after all, those we have aren't the current ones only GW has), but fact is we currently live in a capitalist world that is on crisis, with price increasing everywhere in every field. You know it won't change tomorrow in a snap of fingers, and you definitely don't bring any working solution in such a way as well - short or long term speaking.

Your choice of passive voice (the prices are increasing) says a lot, though. The companies and their executives are making these decisions. You are right in that there are many different reasons for price increases - greed being one of them, which should be obvious for anyone mildly interested in how the corporate capitalism works, what profile of individuals is most likely to rise to the top, what are the expectations of venture capital etc. Also, the "crisis" you are referring to is a dangerous argument in a corporate world context - while it may be true, it may also be used as an extremely convenient excuse for a price increase, which we have witnessed many times during the pandemic. 

Now, obviously, with all the assumptions you have made, this price hike (and every other to come) is a reasonable decisions. How we react depends largely on two factors - the first being "do you really care?". These are toy soldiers after all, not housing, agriculture or energy sector (the pricing discussion in these areas would be much more interesting, by the way)). Which is good, as people can simply walk away from GW with no real consequence.

The second factor is: "are you happy that your preferred plastic soldiers provider is hoarding gold?". Maybe you are, firmly believing that they will use the resources to transform the business for the better and provide you with entertainment for years to come. Maybe you are not, suspecting that the executives do not care for the long-term growth, intend to keep the employees starving, suck the company dry and ride away with evil laughter. One has to decide for himself.

I will still buy their products, albeit more selectively. 

[The Red King]

@Sarouan I'm not entirely sure what your stance is. On the one hand you seem legitimately concerned about the pricing crisis we face and as evidenced by calling it a capitalist crisis you seem to lay the blame in the proper place but then you go on to use the crisis caused by capitalist (anti consumer) policies and practices to justify more of those same practices. 

 

It comes across as a very cynical darwinist view that these companies have created the terrible environment they live in but are now "forced" to do whatever is necessary to survive this helllscape of their own making.

 

Or am I being overly optimistic in your condemnation of capitalist practices?

[CommissarRotke]

22 hours ago, Sarouan said:

I'm not white knight'ing. I just understand the world is more complex than what you try to paint. Going full pro consumer won't solve all problems and will actually create others - because consumers don't necessarily care about everything that matters on their product and the costs to make it,

But feel free to believe whatever comforts you the best.

You're missing part of the complexity: when GW is, YoY, posting gross profit margins of 40-45% they Do Not Need to do yearly price increases. Other companies would legitimately kill for that high of a margin. Their refusal to accept less of a gross profit margin is why they have yearly price increases. I believe their business charter even states their goal is to maintain this margin...

As for the topic, it's definitely pushing me into Warcry and Spearhead only territory, while making me re-assess my current collection and cleaning out my wishlist.

[Mcthew]

I've held back from offering my thoughts on this whole situation including 4th Edition, but sometimes you need to do more than just bite your lip.

I agree with much that has been written here, and like many people who love this hobby, we know GW has two faces: the smiling, loving one full of wonder and creativity. And the not so loving one that will stamp on you in favour of shareholders. Its just unfortunate the two exist in Warhammer.  I agree sustainability is important for keeping our hobby what it is, but there is a fine line between corporate responsibility and what is anti-societal. 

In the UK, my understanding is that GW's price rises are included in inflationary figures. Whenever our Bank looks at keeping interest rates at the high levels they are, it's price rises like this that have far reaching impacts on mortgages and credit interest. Its not just GW's fault, agreed, but GW are part of the problem. They have fixated on short term profit margins, rather than take a hit as other businesses are doing to ensure society gets back to a sustainable inflation rate. But they won't.

The current price rise and my disinterest in 4th Edition (and my feeling from the get go about 4th's profit-making decisions rather than being driven by the fan base and players) has pretty much burned my Games Workshop bridge for the 2nd time in my life. If I do buy any GW product from now on it will only be the resellers who profit, or 3D printing. And I can't help but think GW have done this to themselves. Not the creative staff, who are as brilliant as ever, but those who run the business which we also know isn't run that well (I'll never get my head around the accounting for both Forgeworld and Citadel and the business decisions that impact the hobby).

Maybe this hobby was never a sustainable business without dark corporate values, but I don't buy that. It's the hobbyists who have made GW what it is. The way corporate GW has acted recently is very Kirkby-like (I thought they would learn their lesson there but it doesnt look like it). I'd prefer my hobby to have some kind of morals behind it where the fans are treated better rather than naked greed, which all the evidence is pointing to. We've experienced that with energy companies, but we need energy to live our lives. Little plastic men and overpriced hardback books are far from being a necessity. And I'd even argue that when a hobby becomes financially stressful, it's not a hobby at all, and becomes bad for one's health, no matter how amazing the models are, and how high the quality of product. We don't all drive around in Porsches and shop in Waitrose, right?

But as someone said to me recently any change is about customer apathy and Corporation, as it has been with Apple and others. Will hobbyists do anything about this situation or are they happy to continue with year on year rises?

(Just to add, it's been amazingly liberating not looking forward to 4th Edition, knowing you don't have to upgrade all your battletomes, handbooks and rules, seeing FAQs every two months... that finally you have a complete rule set in 3rd. And that you don't have to buy any licenced GW stuff anymore to play it. But that's what a hobby is meant to feel like, isn't it?)

[Tonhel]

I fear it is becoming too expensive. The miniatures are beautiful, but it's too much. Even the prices for 20 old year mini's (TOW) are getting insane.

If you don't play in GW stores and you don't do official GW events, why would you spend so much money on GW minis when there are more and more alternatives available. Especially if you have a good 3D printer and a safe place for it.

I was 100% sure that I would buy the AoS 4th edition Starter Set, but now I think, it will cost to much... which is a shame.

For TOW it will be only the Arcane Journals and the occasional resin/plastic character miniature, but the bulk of my army I will just print.

For AoS I will just slowly expand my StD and CoS and don't start a new 4th edition army.

[Flippy]

The semi-positive effect of this is that we can reconsider our hobby spending habits. What surprised me on this forum was that so many folks seem to auto-buy certain products (e.g. starter boxes) just because of their perceived „good value”. What’s the point if you don’t collect certain faction?

I don’t really think I will buy anything at the start of the 4th. edition. Maybe the core book, but even on this I’m kind of reluctant.

[MitGas]

2 hours ago, Flippy said:

The semi-positive effect of this is that we can reconsider our hobby spending habits. What surprised me on this forum was that so many folks seem to auto-buy certain products (e.g. starter boxes) just because of their perceived „good value”. What’s the point if you don’t collect certain faction?

I don’t really think I will buy anything at the start of the 4th. edition. Maybe the core book, but even on this I’m kind of reluctant.

Most warhammer fans simply find too many factions cool and got too little self-control. It’s the harsh truth. Been there myself when I was younger and „more impressionable“. It‘s like when you find a great shirt and then buy it in multiple colors despite only 1 or 2 of those suiting you. It‘s a form of hype and GW has been masterful at exploiting that. White Dwarf basically bombarded you with cool stuff you don‘t „need“ when you already had an army.
 

If time/space/money was no issue, most wargamers would have 10 armies. Can‘t fault them, I‘d be one of them too, but I‘m glad that I delude myself into being a Tzeentch-only guy. I‘d love to have nids or Skaven or FEC, Soulblight or a couple others though but I settled on my very favorite - with Thousand Sons, Slaves and DoT as well as daemons that‘s more like 2.5 armies already anyways but if I imagine that I‘d collect a totally unrelated force on top of all of that… I get anxiety! 😂

 

I see it with a guy in my group who collects gitz, orruks, has some stormcast, plays SW legions (all 3 factions)… it‘s a bit much (for him). I bet he‘d have a better time as a hobbyist if he just focused on his favorite two factions instead of having full forces for each. 
 

Over here we say „possessions are a burden“ and I feel like this applies to most wargamers as well. I‘m sure some are cut out to own a lot of factions, I‘m just not convinced that it‘s the majority of us.

[Flippy]

23 minutes ago, MitGas said:

If time/space/money was no issue, most wargamers would have 10 armies. Can‘t fault them, I‘d be one of them too

Yeah, it’s not like I’m immune or something. Luckily, once I hit around 1500 points it’s usually enough for me.

[Mcthew]

2 hours ago, MitGas said:

Over here we say „possessions are a burden“ and I feel like this applies to most wargamers as well. I‘m sure some are cut out to own a lot of factions, I‘m just not convinced that it‘s the majority of us.

I'm in the former camp, able to field 2k points of around 15 factions between myself and my two sons. It means we've not yet played the same game more than once in over 7 years of AoS and we play about 25 AoS battles every year. We love variety and AoS largely offers that although I admit there are a couple of factions we find neglected or dull to play (Idoneth in the former, new CoS in the latter). 

We dabbled with 40k (9th edition and then 10th) before the fun experience of the first couple of 10th ed games grew quickly dull (we started calling it Borehammer 40k).

So the news of the AoS 4th Ed rewrite/ reboot, plus the squatting of BoC and Sacrosanct didn't land well (we have both armies, and still love playing both). We decided early then that we'd stick with 3rd Edition.

But there are silver linings: by not upgrading to 4th, we're saving almost £500 on battletomes alone. We've worked out that we'll save around four times that over the course of 4th edition if we stick with 3rd, and I guarantee we'll still have as much fun playing AoS over the next few years.

I mean, we still have an Xbox One and use that every day. Not once have we thought we should get the new model when the current one is still fun. Maybe we should be approaching the hobby in the same way? Might mean that price rises don't effect us that much if people buy less GW stuff, thinking they must always upgrade?

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Mcthew said:

I'm in the former camp, able to field 2k points of around 15 factions between myself and my two sons. It means we've not yet played the same game more than once in over 7 years of AoS and we play about 25 AoS battles every year. We love variety and AoS largely offers that although I admit there are a couple of factions we find neglected or dull to play (Idoneth in the former, new CoS in the latter). 

We dabbled with 40k (9th edition and then 10th) before the fun experience of the first couple of 10th ed games grew quickly dull (we started calling it Borehammer 40k).

So the news of the AoS 4th Ed rewrite/ reboot, plus the squatting of BoC and Sacrosanct didn't land well (we have both armies, and still love playing both). We decided early then that we'd stick with 3rd Edition.

But there are silver linings: by not upgrading to 4th, we're saving almost £500 on battletomes alone. We've worked out that we'll save around four times that over the course of 4th edition if we stick with 3rd, and I guarantee we'll still have as much fun playing AoS over the next few years.

I mean, we still have an Xbox One and use that every day. Not once have we thought we should get the new model when the current one is still fun. Maybe we should be approaching the hobby in the same way? Might mean that price rises don't effect us that much if people buy less GW stuff, thinking they must always upgrade?

I wish I was more like you guys, seriously. I just know that for myself less is more. My Tzeentch forces are quite big as it is, I got pretty much everything. 40k sucks as a game currently so I’m more of a collector than a gamer. I just kinda wish I had the determination to collect lots pf factions and not get overwhelmed. I guess two sons helps with that. Hmmm, time to create my own spawn then.

 

But what will I do when my kid one fateful night tells me that he or she wants to collect Lumineth and not play Tzeentch? 😱😱😱😱😱

[Mcthew]

50 minutes ago, MitGas said:

I just kinda wish I had the determination to collect lots pf factions and not get overwhelmed. I guess two sons helps with that. Hmmm, time to create my own spawn then.

We were very lucky - I had Soulblight and Skaven armies left over from early 90s Fantasy Battle which had my kids hooked.

Just grew from there.

Double lucky I guess that I've got one son who loves Destruction, and another who splits his time between SCE and Slaves2D. 

Then there's me with the unholy quartet of Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Khorne, amongst others. 

Seriously tho, struck gold with having kids who are as geeky as I am.

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Mcthew said:

We were very lucky - I had Soulblight and Skaven armies left over from early 90s Fantasy Battle which had my kids hooked.

Just grew from there.

Double lucky I guess that I've got one son who loves Destruction, and another who splits his time between SCE and Slaves2D. 

Then there's me with the unholy quartet of Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Khorne, amongst others. 

Seriously tho, struck gold with having kids who are as geeky as I am.

Yeah, that really sounds amazing - exactly like the dream of pretty much all fathers (at least the ones I personally know); to get their kids interested in the things they themselves dig. Should I ever have kids, I’d like to relive my youth that way too and will try my best to get them into warhammer and video games. 😄 One of my mates has a daughter and she‘s starting to get really interested in Warhammer now that she‘s getting old enough (she‘s 8 now, a bit too young perhaps still). She often helps him paint his minis (so some of his gitz have pink robes) but that‘s one of the sweetest things I‘ve ever witnessed. I hope she keeps being interested in minis/warhammer. Much to his chagrin, she‘s a huge fan of Horrors, especially blue ones. There‘s hope for the young generation! 😂🤣😂

[CommissarRotke]

5 hours ago, MitGas said:

But what will I do when my kid one fateful night tells me that he or she wants to collect Lumineth and not play Tzeentch? 😱😱😱😱😱

then you get the very lucky opportunity to recreate the Spirefall with them 😄

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/18/lumineth-realm-lords-the-loregw-homepage-post-1/

[Sarouan]

14 hours ago, Tonhel said:

I fear it is becoming too expensive.

Maybe it is. Each time price increases, that fear comes as well. Will that be the breaking point, or will we keep on ? Future will tell - and if the answer is "yes", it will be 3D printing.

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

I have to admit, I was pretty keen to get into The Old World, and start the Orc and Goblin horde that I wanted to collect back in the day. But the prices they're charging for old (some of them really old) models has put me right off. I'm as big a sucker for nostalgia as the next chap, but paying top dollar for clunky old kits? Nah. I think I'm sticking with AoS. And that's a decision purely made on price. 

[Tonhel]

3 hours ago, Big Kim Woof-Woof said:

I have to admit, I was pretty keen to get into The Old World, and start the Orc and Goblin horde that I wanted to collect back in the day. But the prices they're charging for old (some of them really old) models has put me right off. I'm as big a sucker for nostalgia as the next chap, but paying top dollar for clunky old kits? Nah. I think I'm sticking with AoS. And that's a decision purely made on price. 

Maybe one of the GW reasons to give HH and TOW such a big price increase is that it became a threat for GW main games price wise? The price increase remedies that, certainly the old kits are now less attractive.

[AquaRegis]

One of the puzzeling aspects of the constant price rises, and the trends of less models in kits, is the new drive by GW to bring in new people and "Accsessability". 10th ED is heavily simplified and the Combat patrol exists so new players can buy a box and start an army from there, its exactly the same with the AOS spearhead boxes where these are designed to be marketed to new Players. But from the combat patrol the bar to getting to a 1000-2000pt list for aos or 40k requires a substantial finacial investment in the triple figure and for some factions (Admech, GSC and Guard) close to £1000. This isn't including buying tools which are heavily inflated, paints that seem to be immune to inflation the Books that are sometimes changed the day after release. 

GW knows that theres still going to be thousands of customers who will still blindly buy thier products and have done for years before, but the bar of entry is so high to get going for new people. When I was a kid I got the Lizardmen battalion for my birthday for £50, all i added was a Old blood for £6 and a priest for £4 and I had a functioning army. Nowadays a squad of Primaris Marines is edging ever closer to £50. 

[AquaRegis]

On 5/10/2024 at 8:42 AM, Sarouan said:

You're missing the point. It's nice and all to say GW is very profitable and price increases is not meant to ensure their survival (though it's always easy to say that without any numbers, as usual - after all, those we have aren't the current ones only GW has), but fact is we currently live in a capitalist world that is on crisis, with price increasing everywhere in every field. You know it won't change tomorrow in a snap of fingers, and you definitely don't bring any working solution in such a way as well - short or long term speaking.

That's why I say I really don't see how a miniature producer can't increase their prices constantly in this world. The conditions aren't meant yet for anything else.

To my knowledge there is no crisis that would effect GW's profit hence the price rise. The only thing I can think of that would directky affect it, is the shipping of the books from China which have to pass through the Straight of Hormuz and due to attacks by the houthis, insurance has gone up. Unless GW use Grains or fertiliser (from Ukraine and Russia) or manufactured thier products in Myanmar theres nothing that warrants a price rise, especially since they have had record profits in recent years.  

A lot of companies are price gouging and blaming "riseing costs" even when thier bottom line hasn't shifted. A recent example in the UK is Heinz increasing thier prices of soup to rediculous levels blaming "the rise costs of manufactureing" and only when did some customers and the press start kicking up a storm did they miraculously realise they didn't need to increase prices anymore. 

[Mcthew]

1 hour ago, AquaRegis said:

A lot of companies are price gouging and blaming "riseing costs" even when thier bottom line hasn't shifted. A recent example in the UK is Heinz increasing thier prices of soup to rediculous levels blaming "the rise costs of manufactureing" and only when did some customers and the press start kicking up a storm did they miraculously realise they didn't need to increase prices anymore. 

This.

It's consumer behaviours that changes corporations, and GW is no different. If everyone rethinks their spend, such as expanding their gaming horizons, buying product elsewhere, like Heinz, they must change how they treat their consumers.

Nothing wrong in making your feelings known to a business by hurting their pockets, just to get them to listen. Corporate history tells us this.

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

17 hours ago, Mcthew said:

This.

It's consumer behaviours that changes corporations, and GW is no different. If everyone rethinks their spend, such as expanding their gaming horizons, buying product elsewhere, like Heinz, they must change how they treat their consumers.

Nothing wrong in making your feelings known to a business by hurting their pockets, just to get them to listen. Corporate history tells us this.

Yes, this is all well and good... but the fact remains that if GW manufacture a model that I really like, I'm going to want it. I'll save up my pocket money and buy that $200 miniature. Now, a lot of people think that's an extravagance, but I'm happy with my purchase. I'm not defending GW's price rises, I'm saying that 'just don't buy their stuff' might not be the most useful philosophy for everyone. 

I at least buy from an independent retailer (Tactics in Perth, WA is where I've been shopping for thirty years!) so part of my spend is supporting someone other than the big global business. 

Edited May 13 by Big Kim Woof-Woof

[Mcthew]

So just in case we're thinking GW can't afford to stop price rises, today on Yahoo News it was announced: "Shares in the retailer jumped after it said pre-tax profits increased by 44% to £58.6 million over the six months to December 1."

Edited May 13 by Mcthew