AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[Satyrical Sophist]

I realise that this is a dumb point, but units hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s with no rend actually do as much damage to themselves attacking Corsairs as they do to the Corsairs (Each attack has one in six chance of getting through armour, and each one to hit is a mortal to the attacking unit). I don't know why that point amuses me so much, but corsairs themselves are 4+/4+/-/1 without buffs, so a unit of corsairs fighting another corsair unit does as much damage to themselves as the enemy.

On that note, got to say I think dark elves have some fantastic options this book. I know a lot of stuff is human focused, but there are some benefits in that. If you want to layer all the buffs then humans are the thing to go for, but that needs the buffing pieces. You cannot have your pontifex everywhere for the 5++, and other buffs are limited as well. I'd be interest in trying a human front line with all the buffs and castilling and looking at non human strike forces for taking other locations. 

A unit of Drakespawn Knights and 3 Drakespawn Chariots is only 410 points. Those chariots do a minimum of 6 MW when charging with the knights, and an expected 14 Mortal wounds. That seems really strong to me. It also is only one Aelf unit short of the three making a charge needed for the battle tactic. Both units are also mounted for Misthaven giving an additional 2d6 movement and move 10.  

I've been meaning to run the numbers on some other stuff, but I'm interested in the new phoenix guard with the sorceress (who can have frankly absurd casting, hallowheart letting he have 3d6+2 to cast with a 4++ shrug next to her guard) and hordes of scourge privateers. Speaking of, I'm surprised how shooty the cross bow units can be, with the fleet masters AoA buff not specifying melee only. 

20 Black guard and a sorceress are 370, 30 corsairs and a fleetmaster are 360. 

[dekay]

49 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

20 Black guard and a sorceress are 370, 30 corsairs and a fleetmaster are 360. 

All good points, but responding to this part: One thing I noticed when experimenting with an Aelf based list was just how much stuff I can fit in. A lot of those units are cheap, and the separate 'segments' of the force still remain pretty affordable.

Dreadlord, 5 knights, 3 chariots.

Sorceress, 10 dreadspears, 20 black guard.

Fleetmaster, 30 corsairs.

All of these work real well on their own (all, right, the corsairs reach true levels of cruelty when you add in another sorceress + dreadspears to the mix), and they all fit into a single army. With some points to spare for things that require zero support to work well, like dark riders or a hydra.

And as you mentioned, the Aelven part of the army is not really reliant on stacking buffs. You can spread those segments all over the battlefield without losing much of their utulity.

[Doko]

yes,i dont know why almost everyone is hyped with humans when they are mediocre at best,while the elfs of the book are the mvp.

mages:sorcerer is the best

screen:pirates are the best

tanks:black guard is the best

best unit buffed(deathstar):pirates with ignore save and fleetmaster

best monster to use monster habilitys:hydra or quimera due to his low cost

best monster: black dragon melle

best shooting unit:fusiliers

best damage unit in the book: ejecutioners

best cavalry  to tank,screen or get objetives: elf cavalry

best cavalry to attack: in msu the humans,in units of 10 the elfs

best mortal wound unit:charriot +cavalry

best battleline: longbeards

 

so almost in every aspect the elfs are the best of the book.

but people that are doing mono faction lists are doing it wrong,mixed factions list is the way to maximice the orders and battletactics

[Draznak]

16 minutes ago, Doko said:

yes,i dont know why almost everyone is hyped with humans when they are mediocre at best

Because not everyone plays competitively, but rather for minis beauty and/or lore aspects. Which is what I do. So I'll be playing an all-human army, no matter how powerful it is.

I haven't started playing AoS yet so I won't have any relevant contribution to make to this thread in terms of gameplay. For me, the biggest challenge will be finding a colour scheme that suits me... At the moment I'm torn between Lethis, Vindicarum, Hammerhal-Aqsha or a homebrew version. I'm hoping that WarCo will come up with painting articles and photos of alternative schemes with as many models as possible to help me make the best choice !

[Doko]

3 minutes ago, Draznak said:

Because not everyone plays competitively, but rather for minis beauty

i can agree with that,but then it is personal tastes.

per example to me the best minis of cities are the dwarfs(in beauty)

[Satyrical Sophist]

7 hours ago, Doko said:

yes,i dont know why almost everyone is hyped with humans when they are mediocre at best,while the elfs of the book are the mvp.

 

I think people are seeing all the cool buffs that you can layer on top of humans and thinking "Dang, wish I could put all those sweet buffs on my elves/dwarfs, they can't get them so they'll be worse" and missing that it seems like the book is designed with that in mind. Ironbreakers being able to either get an unrendable save (with Pha's protection) would end up with a 3+/4++. Or arguably better could end up with forge mage, mystic shield and all out defense have a 0+/4++ which is pretty dang tough. Or just flaming weapons corsairs (on melee or melee and shooting). 

The non humans have their own buffs, but seem a lot more self contained, more pairs of units. Its a different feel, and completely separate from power level I like that there is another way to build the army outside of buff layering. 

It does feel a little bit like Duardin are lagging behind Aelves though. I want to look at some of the numbers, but it feels a bit more like making a thematic choice rather than the optimal. I might be missing something though, kind of feels like iron drakes are paying for the sins of last edition. It might also be a product of the edition, where the Ironbreakers high saves might be stripped off with a hoarfrost, and their ward is combat only, unlike the black guard. If I was high drop I'd be very tempted to try some gyrocopters. 12 inch flying move and small base size can be useful for scoring. 

Looking at all this stuff, the book feels dense. Working out when buffs apply, and how they work is a big one. The Aelf fights first is actually start of the charge phase so you can very much keep your heroes safe for it. 

I'm curious as to how damaging/tough various units are. Might have a go doing some math hammer and do some tiers for it. Going to be hard to work out which buffs to apply, since some can be city dependant. I'm not sure I'm reading this right but I think in Lethis all human heroes can pick from universal prayer lore as well as the Morrda prayer? That lets you get Curse very easily, as well as access to the anti ward prayer. Interestingly I can't see anything stopping unique units gaining the prayers, meaning the Van Denst's become the cheapest option.

 

[Lord Krungharr]

17 hours ago, Asbestress said:

I know it's not numbers crunching or rules analysis, but

It kinda defeats the purpose of the Cult of the Wheel, but I really want a big massive War Altar that looks like it can trudge through a swamp in an armoured column with Steam Tanks (and 1 Hurricanum/Luminark with unglued top is plenty enough for me from the Broken Realms box). Maybe use the carriers for something else Devoted related as an objective marker/thematic extra (Statue Bearers? Holy Grail "artillery"?).

No no no....you need 4 Gyrocopters carrying it suspended on chains.  OR a few of those old Birdmen of Catrazza, which are metal, and would make the the most lopsided flying palanquin possible, which is why it should be done!

[Lord Krungharr]

I ALMOST bought an entire Dark Aelf army today....but decided I should first sell my old Chaos Dwarves Bull Centaurs (full unit of 10, based as Chaos Knights, 1 of each 7 types plus 3 duplicates, and old Chaos Knight shields, and partially painted, message me if interested!)

I'm doing the Steam Tank army, and really like the medieval style engineering, so am doing just 5 Cavaliers, but they're gonna be wheeled horse-cycles piloted by my 5 spare Steam Tank engineers, and led by the old metal Engineer on Mechanical Steed as the Marshal.  Other than these and switchable turrets to make Luminarks, I'm pretty much not doing the humans (maybe the Warforger of course).

The Dark Aelves are super strong and those army-combo-chunks laid out by @dekayare excellent examples.  So when I sell my Bull Centaurs, I think I will get that lay out.  And maybe they'll even work together in the Old World somehow?  Or eventually an Umbraneth battletome perhaps?  

[Malakithe]

Im looking going full pew pew with Greywater...mmm the smell of fresh gunpower....

Also has anyone figured out what the max number of bodies one can slap down on the table is?

[Beliman]

18 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

ronbreakers being able to either get an unrendable save (with Pha's protection) would end up with a 3+/4++.

Pha's Protection is a "Citys of Sigmar Humans only" spell.

Btw, I'm with you that Aelves or even Dwarfs, their warscrolls and the few abiltiies are strong enough to carry this army. But that's a feature, Humans stacking buffs with a lot of tools is good enough to play and have fun. There are people like me that love to have this type of combos. Top tournament players are going to abuse that because anything that they can use to have an edge over the opponent is something that they need to abuse. Even if Aelves and Duardins are not that behind without all this combos.

Btw, a new play that I want to see on the table:

1. Take a Warden King, use Misthaven + Advance Formation to move him roadblocking a zone/objective and never charge the enemy (Heavy Metal Ingot). Position some Hammerers and 1 Runelord 6" inches away from your Warden King (enemy need a 10"+ charge to reach your Hammerers).
2. In the enemy turn, always put a Counter-Charge Order in to your Runelord. If the enemy shoot your Warden King, it will need to pass a 2+(AoD) unrendable save. If any enemy unit charges him, counter-charge with 20 attacks at 3+/3+/-3/2 (-4 with Runelord's prayer), a warden king a 2+(AoD) unrendable save with Ward4+ and both units are going to fight at the same time.

The best part is that it's just 360p that doens't need a lot of resources: 1 Command Point (for 2+save warden king), Misthaven and 1 artifact. And you don't even need to use Hammerers, maybe counter-charge with some Drakespawn Chariots (mw) or a good Aelf unit buffed by a +3cast sorcerer with Tenebrael Blades can do the same.

Not a game-winner play, but the point is that Duardin and Aelves (appart the human side of the army) have enough tools to force some uncomfortable decisions for your opponent, and that's what win games.

Edit:

Btw, what abbout the Ironweld Great Cannon and Fusilers? Fusilers have a lot of stacking potential, but you need to invest Commands/Freeguild Marshal, Traits and probably a Subfaction. Meanwhile, a Lord Ordinator with 2-3 Great Cannons doesn't need a constant supply of Command Points/Relic Envoy or any trait and subfaction to constantly do damage:

Ignore this, Cannons suck compared to Fusiliers.

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Beliman

[The Lost Sigmarite]

17 hours ago, Doko said:

yes,i dont know why almost everyone is hyped with humans when they are mediocre at best,while the elfs of the book are the mvp.

Because we want to play with the new plastic toys ! Simple as. And also because 95% of us aren't sweaty competitive players trying to craft the GT winning list.

9 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

It does feel a little bit like Duardin are lagging behind Aelves though. I want to look at some of the numbers, but it feels a bit more like making a thematic choice rather than the optimal. I might be missing something though, kind of feels like iron drakes are paying for the sins of last edition. It might also be a product of the edition, where the Ironbreakers high saves might be stripped off with a hoarfrost, and their ward is combat only, unlike the black guard. If I was high drop I'd be very tempted to try some gyrocopters. 12 inch flying move and small base size can be useful for scoring. 

I feel like Duardins are just lacking flavour. For example :

See all that empty space ? You could add an extra ability here to make the warscroll less boring, maybe even justify its cost. I know ability bloat is bad, but come on, 2 isn't that much.

I hope they get FAQ'd because such good looking minis don't deserve warscrolls this bad. I think Form Shieldwall should give the ward in the shooting phase too, and I'd prefer if the King gave exploding 6s instead of autowounds on 6s with the grudge. I really don't understand the design of the Warden King btw. The rules encourage you to play him more like a melee brawler, but his D3 damage is too unreliable and with 4" he ain't going nowhere. And yeah Irondrakes do pay for the deathstars of the last BT. I think their base range should be 18", and the torpedo should be 1/10 models, not champion only...

I was hoping to mix the new humans with Duardins, but now I think I will stick with humans only... Shame.

Edited August 10, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 hours ago, Beliman said:

Btw, what abbout the Ironweld Great Cannon and Fusilers? Fusilers have a lot of stacking potential, but you need to invest Commands/Freeguild Marshal, Traits and probably a Subfaction. Meanwhile, a Lord Ordinator with 2-3 Great Cannons doesn't need a constant supply of Command Points/Relic Envoy or any trait and subfaction to constantly do damage:

Are you sure you calced that correctly? When I input the stats of the cannon and fusiliers into Statshammer, the cannon does about half the damage of the fusiliers.

Honestly, I don't think the cannon is objectively worth taking at this point. You can get pretty outstanding shooting out of 20 fusiliers and an alchemite. No need to ally in a 110 point lord ordinator who does nothing else for your army. Having extra native heroes is so good in cities just for that extra order alone.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Are you sure you calced that correctly? When I input the stats of the cannon and fusiliers into Statshammer, the cannon does about half the damage of the fusiliers.

Maybe I ****** up. What I'm missing?

Fusiliers: 5 models, 2 attacks each, Leader +2 attacks, 3+/3+/-1/1
Cannonball: 1 model, 2 attacks, 3+/2+/-2/1D3+2
Amour-Piercing Shell: 1 model, 2 attacks, 3+/2+/-4/1D6
 

Edit: Fixe'd, thx @Neil Arthur Hotep

Edited August 10, 2023 by Beliman

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

10 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Maybe I ****** up. What I'm missing?

Fusiliers: 5 models, 2 attacks each, Leader +2 attacks, 3+/3+/-1/1
Cannonball: 1 model, 2 attacks, 3+/2+/-2/1D3+2
Amour-Piercing Shell: 1 model, 2 attacks, 3+/2+/-4/1D6
 

 

Fusiliers come in 10s.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Are you sure you calced that correctly? When I input the stats of the cannon and fusiliers into Statshammer, the cannon does about half the damage of the fusiliers.

Honestly, I don't think the cannon is objectively worth taking at this point. You can get pretty outstanding shooting out of 20 fusiliers and an alchemite. No need to ally in a 110 point lord ordinator who does nothing else for your army. Having extra native heroes is so good in cities just for that extra order alone.

Still gonna grab one for the Castelite formation battalion. Yeah it's kinda subpar, but it's also fairly cheap so not a big problem. At 1000 pts I wouldn't bring it because 150 pts is a big investment there, but at 2000, it's only 7,5% of your list, not a big deal. 

Also, with Cities being a numerous army of mostly new models, it's going to be very $$$€€€£££ to collect. My take is : buy up to 1500 pts of Cities mini, then paint my Gotrek. Boom, 1/4 of your list done in one mini. A bit like IDK players do with the big turtle.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Still gonna grab one for the Castelite formation battalion. Yeah it's kinda subpar, but it's also fairly cheap so not a big problem. At 1000 pts I wouldn't bring it because 150 pts is a big investment there, but at 2000, it's only 7,5% of your list, not a big deal. 

Also, with Cities being a numerous army of mostly new models, it's going to be very $$$€€€£££ to collect. My take is : buy up to 1500 pts of Cities mini, then paint my Gotrek. Boom, 1/4 of your list done in one mini. A bit like IDK players do with the big turtle.

I'm also getting a cannon and fusil-major. They are not optimal, I think, but I don't want to paint 40+ fusiliers. Plus, the alchemite and fusiliers will almost certainly go up in points over time (how crazy is it that the alchemite is our cheapest hero?), while I would predict that the fusil-major and cannon will come down if anything.

I have been thinking about steam tanks more. I think the ideal size is probably a tank commander plus one regular. That way the tanks can be pretty much self-sufficient. They can help out your other troops by tanking and delivering orders at the front lines. The commander can buff the normal tank for free, so you don't need extra support pieces If you run 3+ tanks you need to start builing around them by including stuff like a hurricanum, and they become much harder to justify.

I'm still doing three tanks right now (because I have them painted), but they definitely warp the list around themselves. They kind of demand that you give them both +1 to hit and a movement buff at that point, which is not the easiest thing in the world to build for without ****** over the rest of you list. You might want a casting bonus as well, which even harder to fit all at once.

[JackStreicher]

16 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Still gonna grab one for the Castelite formation battalion. Yeah it's kinda subpar, but it's also fairly cheap so not a big problem. At 1000 pts I wouldn't bring it because 150 pts is a big investment there, but at 2000, it's only 7,5% of your list, not a big deal. 

Also, with Cities being a numerous army of mostly new models, it's going to be very $$$€€€£££ to collect. My take is : buy up to 1500 pts of Cities mini, then paint my Gotrek. Boom, 1/4 of your list done in one mini. A bit like IDK players do with the big turtle.

The cannon might not be good (need Greywater Fastness for them imo), but they look cool and they can body-block in front of objectives

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

The cannon might not be good (need Greywater Fastness for them imo), but they look cool and they can body-block in front of objectives

Even in Greywater, 10 extra fusiliers are probably just better (painting meta not taken into consideration).

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I have been thinking about steam tanks more. I think the ideal size is probably a tank commander plus one regular. That way the tanks can be pretty much self-sufficient. They can help out your other troops by tanking and delivering orders at the front lines. The commander can buff the normal tank for free, so you don't need extra support pieces If you run 3+ tanks you need to start builing around them by including stuff like a hurricanum, and they become much harder to justify.

A tank + commander is 500 pts. Perfect for someone who begins with the army to tech to 2000 pts, just buy 2 tanks and you have half of the way to 2k done in one fell swoop. Pretty cost effective. Might invest in Steam Tanks now... 

I just will have to convert a tank commander to have a more "2023 Freeguild" looking one instead of the Empire one. 

Btw, what do you make of the witch hunters in the book ? The Ven Denst seem pretty useless, unless you really want a counter against endless spells. Might be better to just get Battlemages.

[Malakithe]

I think the only winning argument for the cannon is access to -4 rend. Yeah lots of other things can do more dmg but all that damage will count for nothing if it doesnt get through armor

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

I think the only winning argument for the cannon is access to -4 rend. Yeah lots of other things can do more dmg but all that damage will count for nothing if it doesnt get through armor

D6 damage though. That's a lot worse than it looks (super swingy). However, you can of course make it more consistent by adding more cannons

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

34 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Btw, what do you make of the witch hunters in the book ? The Ven Denst seem pretty useless, unless you really want a counter against endless spells. Might be better to just get Battlemages.

Hot take: You can do worse than a two pack of heroes (two orders for the price of one!) with a 5+ ward that can dome wizards for big damage and destroy endless spells for 160.

However, they are just goodstuff and don't advance any particular game plan.

[JackStreicher]

31 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

However, you can of course make it more consistent by adding more cannons

4

pewpewpew

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

4

pewpewpew

It may not be a good list, but it gives you a chance to be the guy who blew apart Archaon with a bunch of armour piercing shells turn one.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Looking at all these comments, my thoughts are this looks like a tough army to expand from 1000 to 2000 pts. Once you got your little 1000 pts list from the army set, where do you go ? Do you invest in Steam Tanks like @Neil Arthur Hotep says, or Gotrek like myself ? Or more Steelhelms, Cavaliers and Fusilisers ? Zenestra ? Battlemages ? There's so much you can go into and you can't fit everything in 2000 pts.

My two cents on all this is :

• I'll wait until Ihave experience with the BT at 1000 pts before teching up (that's what I'm doing)
• In 2000 pts territory I think you will want to run reinforced units of Steelhelms, so prepare to buy some more (hope the vanguard box comes with some)
• Trying to use every model I use at 1000 pts in 2000 pts. For example, I want to run a Cavalier-Marshal at 1000, so he will be in my 2000 pts list to save money - so I think I'll invest in more Cavaliers to support him at larger scale games.
• Battlemages will be needed at 2000 pts imo because more magic is always great.

Also do you think Zenestra is an auto-include at 2000 pts or even at 1000 pts ? She's super likely to go up in points, she's a steal at 150 right now.