A discussion of the lore of AoS after 7 years

[JackOfBlades]

21 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Seeing my players' response, I think the setting of AoS has actually become pretty distinctive and interesting. I think it's still pretty appropriate to be unsatisfied with the narrative of AoS, though. Even though it arguably moves at a faster pace and with more meaningful change happening than 40K and WHFB, it still kinda feels like the whole Age of Death didn't result in very much. Ditto for the events of Broken Realms and the currently unfloding Age of the Beast. I hope the wrtiers at GW eventually figure out how to have lasting and impactful change happen in AoS without an event as big and destructive as the End Times.

What kind of change would you like to see more precisely?

Do you want major characters killed off? which ones would count as major? If not then why not, and what would count as lasting and meaningful change without that (does Slaanesh's imprisonment count for example? what about if Slaanesh is released from imprisonment, will it still count)?

Should the stakes stay about the same throughout the changes, or should the stakes keep escalating? if they should stay the same, how should meaningful change be accomplished? if the stakes should keep escalating, how will that be sustainable?

Edited June 13, 2022 by JackOfBlades

[Kadeton]

Slaanesh's imprisonment is an interesting one to talk about. Okay, they are imprisoned... in practical terms, what does that actually mean? What restrictions does it place on Slaanesh's activities? They still seem perfectly capable of granting powers to their followers, and they even birthed the new demon twins into the world. If Slaanesh was freed, how would things actually change?

The main effect seems to be that the aelven gods have access to Slaanesh to 'extract' souls, but even that doesn't seem necessary any more. The realms are already teeming with aelves, and they don't need Slaanesh to remain captive to make more.

The aelves want to keep Slaanesh captive, and the forces of Slaanesh want to free them, but the stakes are so unclear that the outcome doesn't really matter either way - it sounds important, but it doesn't mean anything in terms of the game.

[Baron Klatz]

Well mind a lot of Slaanesh granting powers and giving birth all happened because someone messed with the prison like when Archaon cut some chains or when Morathi-Khaine went swimming in it’s guts which left such an opening afterwards that Slaanesh was able to birth through the small rift the Twins in the Uhl-gysh twilight realm to lead for it.

If Slaanesh got loose then stuff like Sigvald and other followers would fully ascend to daemon princes instead of colossal mortals, the Hedonite forces would be more organized rather than searching around and getting into parties and harem distractions and on the other coin for Order their civilizations would come more under threat from council nobility who already take advantage of attractive servants and pleasures like Azyrite nobility having the glowing blue rocks from their home-realm Azyr transported to the lower realms to make extravagant shining noble quarters out of.
 

These would be ripe for Slaanesh to corrupt and hobble Order’s expansions with inner long established cities making soft people that can turn.

[Beliman]

Take in mind that Matched Play =/=Narrative play.

• You can kill characters, but that doesn't invalidate them to be legal in matched play.
• You can destroy a city, but that doesn't mean that you can't play with their last rules.

Only discontinued miniatures or a new edition are the main sources that can ban some of AoS units/rules. An ongoing narrative doesn't mean a lot in terms of gameplay, but it could be a great excuse to create new "alternative" rules or models (Kill Nagash= create a new alternative warscroll for "Shard of Nagash").

[Gitzdee]

I love all things Destruction/ Greenskin GW produces but i am starting to get a bit tired of the Waaaghs being the only thing orruks can do (also in 40k). They see krumpin they go krumpin. Azhag the Slaughterer was a fun twist but still the same. Kragnos lacked any flavor imho and was totally out of place as a leader of Destruction. Would rather have had Gordrakk fulfill this role after defeating Kragnos and not the other way around. Leaning towards the more cunning part with the Kruleboys was kind of fun side story but i think the Gitz already had this part covered. Would be more fun if they actually destroyed Excelsis and are feared again for the force of nature they are. I am a huge fan of the Gitz lore. Dont know what other direction they could take the Orruks though.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Iksdee

[Baron Klatz]

For Kruleboyz I think the best thing they introduce are AoS’ version of Mek Orks with the Chamon Big Yellers clans:

”Big Yellers tend to favour bright colours and loudness over stealth as they believe the best and brightest of all of Orrukdom should not be hiding. Big Yellers are notable for their extreme laziness but this has led to the ingenuity of their weaponsmiths. Instead of travelling through the wilds they prefer to travel using the waterways of their homelands and has launched entire Waaagh!s on fleets of skiffs and rafts, usually downstream as it is less trouble compared to traveling upstream. The warclan has also developed a rugged industry which is visible in their fortresses which have many winches, drawbridges and mill-wheells. Even their archery ranges are automated to allow target corpses to be stripped of arrows and the ranges to be reset without having to walk back and forth. 

As they originate from Ayadah they have close ties with the Gloomspite Gitz of Skrappa Spill.”

(Ayadah’s where Da Bad Moon victory vomited celestial debris over an entire continent making it nice and dank overhead for both groups to enjoy)

“Big Yellers prefer bright colours and loud sounds over stealth and subtler forms of intimidation. Their laziness mean they spend a lot of their time tinkering with their weapons carrying out "kustom modifikashuns". Thus their Deffspikerz are able to wield superior missile weapons, which also solves the issue of having to walk up close to the enemy. However when the effects of the Waaagh! reaches its height Big Yellers can be motivated to break into a run, albeit for a small time.

The wealthiest of the Big Yellers travel in captured Cogforts which have been heavily modified. These contain firing gantries armed with beast-skewer killbows and massive winch-driven mega-choppas that can smash defences and cut down giant monsters.”

Them giving Destruction access to advanced machinery & and what amounts to giant walking fortress robots is a pretty big new path.

And Kragnos is a good God-beast starter that helps show how Destruction takes on characteristics of a God’s body, hopefully on the road to many more to flesh out Destruction’s pantheon besides Gorkamorka with more realm-native wild gods.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Beliman]

7 minutes ago, Iksdee said:

Dont know what other direction they could take the Orruks though.

As a dwarf-fan, I love when gitz take a Karak/Barak and twist it to become their own "city" (in an endless war with all their neighbours. Still no rules to play with that kind of stuff, but it could be a new direction* for all greenskins: No need to build cities/societies, take them from the enemies!

*40k had "looted" rules and there are a few books/easter eggs about Grotbag Scuttler stealing KO tech, but it doesn't count because they have 0 impact in rules or AoS narrative.

[Gitzdee]

4 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Them giving Destruction access to advanced machinery is a pretty big new path.

Maybe for AoS. But in my eyes the Kruleboyz are a shoutout/ redesign of the classic orcs of whfb. They just switched the wheels and artillery for monsters and crossbows. It was always a side of the orruks that was a bit forgotten after the end times.

If i have to come up with a new story for the orruks it would be one more focussed on the Bonesplitterz. Maybe come up with a leader that want to destroy any landmarks or cities made by mortals for the sake of returning the realms to their natural state. Using feral magic/ beasts/ incarnates and greenskins to do so. Like Terraforming the Realms is a calling from GorkaMorka after all prophets had the same vision. Might use this as a theme for my new Orruk Warclans army i am building at the moment XD.

4 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

And Kragnos is a good God-beast starter, hopefully on the road to many more to flesh out Destruction’s pantheon besides Gorkamorka with more realm-native wild gods.

Spider-god next please ! ! !

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Iksdee

[Enoby]

4 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

If Slaanesh got loose then stuff like Sigvald and other followers would fully ascend to daemon princes instead of colossal mortals

I think Slaanesh daemon princes still exist - there have been a few in the lore (produced after imprisonmemt), so is there any reason these guys haven't ascended when 'lesser' champions have?

I'm genuinly curious, this isn't meant to be a gotcha or anything 

[Baron Klatz]

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

I think Slaanesh daemon princes still exist - there have been a few in the lore (produced after imprisonmemt), so is there any reason these guys haven't ascended when 'lesser' champions have?

I'm genuinly curious, this isn't meant to be a gotcha or anything 

In the “Red Hour” novella it turned out one being that was making daemon prince-level champions in Chamon was a former “mother of heroes” God-beast that was corrupted by Slaanesh in the Age of Myth as it grew envious of other gods having so many heroic worshippers. 
 

It was dangerous enough with making such champions and insidiously twisting events around heroes to draw them into chaos(protagonist just had a twist of luck that defeated the chaos big bad and saved the day? It’s behind it and slowly possessing them to become a bigger and bigger glory hound until fully corrupted) that Sigmar locked it away and the tombs of it’s champions so people forgot about it and drained away it’s power.

So there’s certainly enough loop-holes in the Realms between Greater daemons and corrupted God-beasts being able to do it in Slaanesh’s place and justify the prince models. Them and the leaks from Slaanesh’s dwindling prison having lost over 1/3rd of it’s chains now allowing more power to sift through, even though the rarity of Slaanesh daemon princes is the consequence of relying on droplets of it’s power rather than getting it from the full source.

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

11 hours ago, JackOfBlades said:

What kind of change would you like to see more precisely?

Do you want major characters killed off? which ones would count as major? If not then why not, and what would count as lasting and meaningful change without that (does Slaanesh's imprisonment count for example? what about if Slaanesh is released from imprisonment, will it still count)?

Should the stakes stay about the same throughout the changes, or should the stakes keep escalating? if they should stay the same, how should meaningful change be accomplished? if the stakes should keep escalating, how will that be sustainable?

It's kind of difficult to put a fine point on what I specifically mean, but examples have been brought up in this thread.

Like Morathi becoming a god, betraying just about all the Order factions in the process and then everything seemingly returning straight to the status quo right after. Everyone is still pretty much allied exactly as before, and it's not even all that clear what difference Morathi being a god actually makes.

Similar criticisms could be raised about the whole Necroquake situation, the awakening of Kragnos, the siege of Excelsis, the death of Nagash and the birth of Dexcessa and Synessa. All of these feel like they should be world-altering events, but they end up barely making a difference.

I don't know what exactly should be done to make these things feel mofe impactful. But I think the ongoing narrative currently doesn't really feel satisfying. And that is in contrast with the setting in general for me, which is already really fun and interesting and only getting more weird and wonderful by the minute.

[Gitzdee]

They could make shifts in the balance of power for the duration of a new edition at least. It does indeed feel like a bit like groundhog day sometimes XD.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

It's kind of difficult to put a fine point on what I specifically mean, but examples have been brought up in this thread.

Like Morathi becoming a god, betraying just about all the Order factions in the process and then everything seemingly returning straight to the status quo right after. Everyone is still pretty much allied exactly as before, and it's not even all that clear what difference Morathi being a god actually makes.

Similar criticisms could be raised about the whole Necroquake situation, the awakening of Kragnos, the siege of Excelsis, the death of Nagash and the birth of Dexcessa and Synessa. All of these feel like they should be world-altering events, but they end up barely making a difference.

I don't know what exactly should be done to make these things feel mofe impactful. But I think the ongoing narrative currently doesn't really feel satisfying. And that is in contrast with the setting in general for me, which is already really fun and interesting and only getting more weird and wonderful by the minute.

I just keep coming back to the Grand Alliance stagnation.  Morathi’s heel turn structurally can’t fit into such narrow brackets.  Some variant on D&D’s alignment system (which is occasionally hinted at in things like the coalition grid a year or two ago…) could do wonders here.  So maybe DoK still aligns with Sylvaneth & IDK (maybe even KO as long as the $$$ is good 🤷‍♂️) who maybe are closer to Order Neutral or even Order Evil but no longer with Order Good factions like SCE?

 

[Marcvs]

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Like Morathi becoming a god, betraying just about all the Order factions in the process and then everything seemingly returning straight to the status quo right after. Everyone is still pretty much allied exactly as before

It's a small thing but on this point I was (negatively) surprised to see that in the new BT, DoK can even ally with SCE after the events in broken realms (while a least the SCE BT was more coherent on this point)

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

13 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

It's a small thing but on this point I was (negatively) surprised to see that in the new BT, DoK can even ally with SCE after the events in broken realms (while a least the SCE BT was more coherent on this point)

On the other hand, I enjoy the mental image of an exhausted Sigmar as the only adult in the room, trying desperately to get everyone else to grow up and work together for once. For a barbarian warlord turned god of storms, he sure is agreeable to a fault, though.

[CommissarRotke]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Like Morathi becoming a god, betraying just about all the Order factions in the process and then everything seemingly returning straight to the status quo right after. Everyone is still pretty much allied exactly as before, and it's not even all that clear what difference Morathi being a god actually makes.

 

I believe the DOK tome explains this: Morathi does not have an Iron Grip on 100% of her followers, and so there are enclaves/temples that work with COS/Order closely while not following her commands to the absolute letter.

So things like this are a double-edged sword where it's GOOD because it means the factions are not beholden to their poster-leader and doesn't break lists, but BAD because it makes people think nothing happened and/or the happenings did not matter.

[Baron Klatz]

As someone who likes the unorthodox alliance of Stormcasts and DoK in the past that was a positive to me, especially after the DawnCrusades narrative kept pointing out Stormcasts, Fyreslayers & Khainites are all working together to help the settlers.(made a nice image that they’re putting aside their bickering gods to aid the imperiled mortals)

Between that and the lore justification that both God-king Sigmar & Morathi-Khaine don’t want to open up another war front between eachother when Kragnos is causing every realm to be besieged by Greenskins and Chaos is on the rise it makes sense they call a truce to save their civilization.

Certainly Morathi-Khaine knows she needs the peace time now to double down on pacifying her recent conquests and getting the hang of her new godhood.
 

Of which there’s already big trouble as her Shadow Queen aspect has been enraged by losing that fight to Kragnos and busted through the palace with her servants saying the Aspect flew off to Ghur for a second round with the God-beast. Which is gonna drag Morathi-Khaine after it so it doesn’t get destroyed and lose part of her soul in the process. This while continuing to grow out her worshippers is putting a lot of strain on her.

I imagine the next Stormcast Battletome will have DoK as allies again too now that there’s a truce and Morathi-Khaine kept her bargains of sparing the populace’s of the cities not killed in the initial conquests, freeing the Stormcasts she had imprisoned and now aiding the Dawners.

With Ven Brecht working in the shadows of Har Kuron to aid the Anvilgard resistance and any possibility of seeing the Barony of Thunder’s take on these events as a secretive Stormhost strongly in support of the Khainites has me excited to see the next tome’s events.

Edit: oh lastly, as much as I adore the moving narrative of AoS that keeps it feeling progressive and fresh. I understand why they don’t move Too big or quickly with any changes.

For newcomers, big and constant changes can seem really scary to keep up with so a vast setting that keeps a semblance of itself since the start while things do move forward and get tweaked here and there with the occasional changed city, warped landscape/continent, new god or surprise army reveal keep things from being overwhelming.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Whitefang]

On 6/10/2022 at 4:26 PM, JReynolds said:

Well, yeah. That's the point of tie-in fiction. It's to market the intellectual property in question to potential customers who might not otherwise see it. It's the equivalent of Larry Hama's seminal run on GI Joe for Marvel Comics back in ye olden days - GI Joe was a fantastic comic, with well-developed characters and plotlines that deftly treaded the line between realistic and fantastic. It was also a glorified commercial, where Hama was expected to write-in whatever new toy was coming out that month. And sometimes, he erred on the side of the commercial, because that's the job. 

It's the same with BL. Sometimes the authors have more freedom to play with concepts than others. Sometimes an author just feels like playing it safe, because at the end of the day these books aren't written for art's sake - they're a paycheque, written to a 2-3 month deadline. The editors want Stormcast fighting Nighthaunts? Easy-peasy, assemble a three-act story that introduces our characters, sets up the stakes and climaxes in a brawl in a hidden tomb. Fire and forget, move onto the next thing. 

Now, that's not to imply that this is the case in general or even most of the time. But there's always an element of pragmatism to any tie-in project. You have to balance the needs of the story against the needs of the product, and chances are, your employers/clients/etc. will always prefer that you err on the side of the product. 

tldr; you, an author, are given a box and told to write a story about the box and everything in it - but you can't go outside the box. So you have to do what you can, with what you're given, in the time allowed. Some authors will get a bigger box than others; some get a smaller box. Some just get the packing peanuts that came with the box. But the job is always the same - make the most out of what you're given, and try and move some merchandise in the process. 

Out of curiosity, did the "(relatively) hard work got ignored but easy work went popular" kind of strange thing happen to you throughout your time writing for BL?

[Twisted Firaun]

7 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

In the “Red Hour” novella it turned out one being that was making daemon prince-level champions in Chamon was a former “mother of heroes” God-beast that was corrupted by Slaanesh in the Age of Myth as it grew envious of other gods having so many heroic worshippers. 
 

It was dangerous enough with making such champions and insidiously twisting events around heroes to draw them into chaos(protagonist just had a twist of luck that defeated the chaos big bad and saved the day? It’s behind it and slowly possessing them to become a bigger and bigger glory hound until fully corrupted) that Sigmar locked it away and the tombs of it’s champions so people forgot about it and drained away it’s power.

So there’s certainly enough loop-holes in the Realms between Greater daemons and corrupted God-beasts being able to do it in Slaanesh’s place and justify the prince models. Them and the leaks from Slaanesh’s dwindling prison having lost over 1/3rd of it’s chains now allowing more power to sift through, even though the rarity of Slaanesh daemon princes is the consequence of relying on droplets of it’s power rather than getting it from the full source.

 

Honestly I’d love to see more Godbeasts actually making an effort in the story. Each alliance potentially has dozens of “allied” godbeasts in their employ, but at best only six of them have any influence on the story.

One example that sticks out to me is Hrunspuul, the two-headed wolf god of cairns and supposed progenitor of the Vyrkos Soulblight Dynasty. In theory this monster has an army of undead with their own cities (Ulfenkarn, for example) at their disposal, but so far he hasn’t done anything with them (like challenge Nagash). All I’m saying is that Godbeasts are an underused resource in the lore that I wish GW would utilize better.

[Gitzdee]

I would like some new "neutral" monsters/ beasts back that can be added to most armies. That was a fun thing whfb had, i wonder why they dropped this. Maybe its difficult to balance or something.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Iksdee

[CommissarRotke]

16 hours ago, Loyal Son of Khemri said:

Honestly I’d love to see more Godbeasts actually making an effort in the story. Each alliance potentially has dozens of “allied” godbeasts in their employ, but at best only six of them have any influence on the story.

 

Yes!! Not only would this give us NEW AOS characters (deities?) they could also be positioned as "neutral" in terms of outside the Grand Alliance wars. They'd probably side with anyone else over Chaos since the whole corrupting the realms thing, but still settling outside any GA until necessary.

[derpherp]

More godbeasts would be cool, and there are so many of them an they are all epic and pretty interesting conceptually.

The more I read about AoS lore the more I think it would make a truly epic MMO. Perhaps Nexon will make the good game that AoS needs to help people get into it.

I don't really know much about Nexon, but I hope they don't blow the opportunity and half ass it. I kinda wish a studio like amazon game studios had gotten it, New World was very good, and it seems like they could do AoS justice.

 

 

[novakai]

well doing some light research on Nexon.

now as a Korean MMO developer and a giant corporation in the Asian market, they are likely to make a visual astounding game on the surface level (filled with microtransaction) but they on the top part of the list of bad game publisher that commited the most sins. (They make GW look like saints in Comparisions). They have cancelled a large amount of game in their history and are mediocre when it comes to game development.

looking at the games they have launched, i don't see many AoS fans and even people on this forum would even jump into this game even if it based on AoS. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by novakai

[Gitzdee]

3 minutes ago, novakai said:

well doing some light research on Nexon.

now as a Korean MMO developer and a giant corporation in the Asian market, they are likely to make a visual astounding game (filled with microtransaction) but they on the top part of the list of bad game publisher that commited the most sins. (They make GW look like saints in Comparisions)

looking at the games they have launched, i don't see many AoS fans and even people on this forum would even jump into this game even if it based on AoS. 

I sadly have to agree with this but they made some half decent games with MapleStory and Mabinogi. But i think do will do an easy cashgrab afk pvp/arena team builder cause they seems to be popular at the moment. KonoSuba was also a decent freemium game. But these kind of games staying power relies on the support/ new content after release and that is a serious issue with most of these "free" games. I would like to see something original and not a simple re-skin. Sorry for getting offtopic here.

[JReynolds]

On 6/8/2022 at 6:47 PM, Beliman said:

 Hey @JReynolds!

I've got an small question about old Lore that maybe you can answer:

In End Times, Araloth was roaming around the Chaos Realms and ended up in the Realm of Nurgle. There, he found a "Giant with Silver Armor" and people started throwing a lot of theories around him. I must say that I'm really curious to know if you can throw some light to that character.

I actually asked this question in a meeting once and the answer I got was 'depends'. If you're a 40K fan, it's Kaldor Draigo. If you're an AoS fan, its Gardus in a bit of timey-wimey argle-bargle (since time has no meaning in the Chaos realm, Gardus' first run through the garden could have happened before the Old World ended...). Or if neither of those appeals to you, it's something else entirely. 

Basically, they left it intentionally ambiguous.