Neil Arthur Hotep Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 Cities of Sigmar is the closest thing Age of Sigmar has to a "regular humans" faction, so let's have a thread dedicated to running human-centric armies in 3rd edition! Humans are split among several subfactions in CoS: Freeguild, Collegiate Arcane and Ironweld Arsenal are the biggest ones, but there are also the Devoted to Sigmar and Witch Hunters. Here's a rough tier list of human units as I see it right now: Top Hurricanum Freeguild General on Griffon Ghur Battlemage Doralia ven Denst Demigryph Knights Freeguild Greatswords Freeguild Crossbows Mid Luminark Steam Tank Commander Non-Ghur Battlemage Galen ven Denst Freeguild Guard Freeguild Handgunners Freeguild Outriders Flagellants Bottom Battlemage on Griffon Freeguild General Helstorm Rocket Battery Helblaster Volley Gun Steam Tank Freeguild Pistoliers Non-Canon Cursed City heroes Here's my reasoning: Spoiler Hurricanum: +1 to hit and cast are universally useful, and it deals mortal wounds on top of that. Freeguild General on Griffon: A good fighty monster on a 3+ save with the ability to worst-case give itself +1 to hit on the charge. Also, has that nice mount trait to teleport out of combat instead of dying. Ghur Battlemage: +1 to cast because all battles are in Ghur right now, and his warscroll spell of +2 to run and charge is good. Doralia: Two damage 4 attacks at 24" against any wizards and daemons is something every army has to respect. The ward and ability to kill endless spells are just a bonus. Demigryph Knights: A fairly fast unit that fights pretty well and can be on a 2+ save easily, what's not to like? Freeguild Greatswords: Good damage and mortals on 6s to hit in addition will kill just about anything they touch. You have to work to get them into position, but it's worth it. Freeguild Crossbows: 24" range and cheap. They don't have any rend, but they can kill stuff pretty well just by weight of dice alone. Luminark: A defensive Hurricanum is still pretty good, but +1 ward is worse than +1 to hit, +1 to unbind is worse than +1 to cast and the laser is worse than the Storm of Shemtek. Steam Tank Commander: Annoyingly random movement and damage output, but the Steam Tank is on a 3+ save natively and has a self-healing ability. A good, reliable defensive hero that is unlikely to die. Non-Ghur Battlemage: They are universally pretty OK, but they compete with the Hurricanum and Ghur Mage and are unlikely to make the cut. Galen ven Denst: Potentially deals higher damage than Doralia, but you have to get him a lot closer to the enemy unit you want to kill. He's playable, but not that good. Freeguild Guard: Cheap chaff that can be on a 4+ save. Their damage is bad, so just take the shields. Flagellants: A sleeper pick? They are faster and braver than guard, but get no save. Their selling point is that they can complete a White Dwarf battle tactic very easily. Battleline for any human general, so also the Steam Tank or Hurricanum. Freeguild Handgunners: Not so good anymore since to hit and wound stacking was removed and everyone else gained the ability to Unleash Hell. Still, their damage output is decent enough, and the Long Rifle is still quite nice to kill small heroes. Freeguild Outriders: Most human units are kind of slow, so having a bunch of 12" move, 16" range guys to skirmish really helps. Their attack profile looks bad, but it's about the same as a unit of Handgunners for the points. Battlemage on Griffon: A monster wizard with bad casting and a bad save. Your opponent will thank you for the free VP if you bring him. Freeguild General: You take this guy for his command ability, but most units that would benefit from it already have +1 to hit on their warscroll somehow or don't want to have to stand still. Helstorm Rocket Battery: Good range, but bad damage output. The better of the two artillery units, because it can at least shoot far. Helblaster Volley Gun: Worse than a unit of Handgunners point-for-point. And Handgunners are worse than a unit of Crossbows, probably. Steam Tank: Very hard to use. Their best feature is their 3+ save, but a unit of Demigryphs is probably better in that regard if all you want is a tank (ironically). Freeguild Pistoliers: They do about the same damage as Outriders at range, but to get a lot closer to be effective. If you want to charge, just use Demigryphs instead. Cursed City heroes: They don't have points in the latest GHB, so they are not real. Some points of discussion to start us off: What are your experiences with humans in 3rd edition? Are Endless Spells still worth it? Humans are about the best at casting them, easily getting a +3 bonus. What could a future update like Dawnbringer Crusades bring to the table for CoS humans? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readercolin Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 Top Tier: Hurricanum, battlemages, freeguild general, freeguild crossbows, and freeguild guard Spoiler Hurricanum I agree with - not every army needs a hurricanum, and some struggle to just fit one, but whether you are human heavy, dwarf heavy, or elf heavy, the hurricanum can argue for having a solid spot in basically any list. Battlemages. You specifically highlighted the Ghur battlemage, but let's be clear here - for 115 points most of the battlemages are good. Ghur is good for its warscroll spell, but I have regularly grabbed a Hysh battlemage (especially combined with a frostheart phoenix for -1 to hit AND -1 to wound), and the Ghyran battlemage is also good for hitting people back against charge heavy armies. Sometimes you just want some extra mortal wounds, and the Azyr battlemage can be useful for spreading the damage out (though he is a bit worse if you bring a hurricanum as they share a spell). I will admit to having some trouble using an Aqshy, Ulgu, Shyish or Chamon battlemage, and will generally just grab a Ghur battlemage to cast my city spells instead, but I wouldn't knock anyone for bringing one of those mages instead. Freeguild General. Yes, I think this is a top tier hero, not a bottom tier hero. But the ability to give a conditional +1 to hit AND wound, and that condition is "don't move" which is also a condition that crossbows/handgunners want to meet anyways is powerful, even before you consider that he gives it to 3 different units. As a 100 point support piece, I would rather grab this guy than most other potential hero's. Freeguild Crossbows. A 24" range, an extra attack if they stand put, and the ability for a freeguild general to buff them up to a 3+/2+ makes these guys one of the best shooters in the game. A squad of 10 of these guys can put out an average of 11 damage before saves with the general's buff, and their only downside is their lack of mobility... which they compensate for with their 24" range. If you need a unit to clear chaff, these are your guys, but you will want to combine them with something else that can smash harder targets. Freeguild Guard. Lets be clear, you aren't bringing these guys for damage, but you are bringing them for chaff screening, and there is little in the game that is cheaper and better than them at that. Give them a sword + shield for a 4+ save and they can screen your actual damage dealers and against some armies, even survive the charge. Just don't expect damage out of them... which for their points cost is fine. Mid Tier: Doralia, Luminark, General on Griffon, Demigryph Knights, Greatswords and Handgunners Spoiler Doralia. Yes, she gets 2 shots that CAN be damage 4. But lets be clear here, if you are bringing her for damage, you messed up, because you can get more damage output from the actual units in the army. Also, that damage 4 is pretty conditional. Literally the only reason she sees any play is because you can stuff her into the living city and she's still at full power when she comes in from the board edge, and for some reason GW killed basically all the other cheap shooting hero's that were part of the various factions that got globbed into the cities. Any other city though and you would be better served with either more regular units, or a different hero. Luminark. This is the hurricanum, but worse. It has a worse shooting attack (d3 mortals to units in a line, rather than being able to concentrate potentially 3d3 on a single target), it has a worse area buff (6+ ward is worse than +1 to hit), and it has a (usually) worse buff for battlemages (+1 to unbinds can be important or useless depending on your opponent, but +1 to cast is always helpful). The warscroll spells are more useful than the hurricanum though, but while a hurricanum can go into any army the luminark is a bit too expensive to see the same amount of play for what it brings to the table. Freeguild General on Griffon. Yes, it is a monster, is fast moving, and you can give it a mount trait for a once-per-game get out of jail free card. However, its buff is fairly anemic, it has no de-buff abilities, and its damage is outclassed by units that are half the cost of it (see demi-gryph knights). There are conditional use cases for the general on griffon, but you wouldn't throw it into any human based army and call it a day, which pretty much precludes it from being top tier. Demigryph Knights. These guys are the best cavalry in the cities. This isn't exactly saying much though, because they come in groups of 3 (making it hard to use them reinforced), have 4 wounds a piece (so they still only count as 1 on objectives), and most importantly, only have a 10" move. This means that they aren't fast enough to alpha, but at the same time aren't really tanky enough to just take a charge, meaning that their only real use is as a counter-charging force. And why would you run them for that when you could instead just run some guns? Freeguild Greatswords. Now, don't get me wrong, greatswords are great killing tools, with mortal wounds in addition on 6's to hit, and +1 to hit if they are near a freeguild general. However, they are also a 5" move unit with a 4+ save, which means they die if something looks at them funny and can only really function with good screening. Which brings us back to the demigryph problem of why would you run them when you could instead run guns? Handgunners. These guys used to be pretty good, but got hit by the no more stacking of +1's to hit. Now the best they can do is 1 shot each at 3+/2+/-1/1 (if buffed by a general), or a 3+/3+/-1/1 if they move and have all out attack or a hurricanum nearby. But they are let down by their 16" range, and the fact that crossbows will actually outdamage them even against a 2+ save unless the crossbows have to move. This does let them keep a niche of having a slightly more mobile unit that isn't hurt that badly if they have to move, but crossbows can hit things from further away than a group of handgunners that move their 5". Bottom Tier: Steam tank commander, Galen ven Denst, Battlemage on Griffon, Outriders, Pistoliers, Flagellants, Steam tanks, Helstorm's and Helblasters. Spoiler Steam Tank Commander. A steam tank with a commander is a slightly better steam tank. If steam tanks were remotely useful, I might bring this guy up to mid tier, but they remain a remarkably un-reliably, swingy unit that is inconsistent in its movement and its damage output. Even if they reduced this guys points, I probably still wouldn't run them, because you still can't rely on them to accomplish anything consistently. Sure, if you do nothing but roll hot, they can seem good, but even if they are rolling hot they still aren't bringing home any prizes. Galen Ven Denst. You want to send a 5" move, 5 wound hero into melee. No. Cities hero's aren't melee lords, and even your cheaper units will outperform this thing. A 9" range shooting weapon also isn't anything to write home about, and you are generally going to be better if you forget that this warscroll exists. Battlemage on Griffon. Wow... just... wow... I'm trying to think of a way to write a worse warscroll, and I'm failing. This is a 1 cast wizard on a mount that wants to fight in melee, but is only rocking a 5+ save. The mount also brackets like mad, and while I might consider running one if this was the ONLY way to get wyldform... you can get that on a 115 point battlemage instead. sooo... no. Just forget that this warscroll exists, and move on with your life. Outriders. So outriders CAN actually match handgunners if they get a +1 to hit (say, from a hurricanum). The problem basically boils down to the fact that they have a 5+ to hit base, and this was good enough when you could stack +1 to hit effects (ex. sit still near a hurricanum + freeguild general), to bring it down to a 3+ to hit, but the base 5+ to hit is just too swingy. The lack of general battleline status outside of tempest eye also hurts their usability some, and the loss of the tempest eye battalion also loses some of their power, but at the moment there is just not a good enough reason to run outriders over another shooting unit in the cities. Give them a base 4+ to hit though and I would run them. Pistoliers. These guys were good in tempest eye when they could retreat and still shoot/charge. Without that though, they just don't do enough damage to clear whatever they are charging into, and if they can't charge their damage output is halved. And it isn't exactly like their damage was worth writing home about in the first place. Flagellants. So you want to run a unit with no save and poor attack profile, have it charge something, and then have it take damage but not just die. I mean, sure, run them into some chaff, or some liberators or something and stuff may happen. But to be truly effective these guys really need to be reinforced, but they aren't worth their points in a reinforced group over other alternatives. Just leave them in the bin until GW gives them... something. Steam Tanks See steam tank commander... and then make it worse. Just no. Helstorm Rocket Battery. Yay, we have something that has a 5+ to hit, and deals half the damage of a squad of handgunners, while costing more and having a minimum range. They were already questionable to bring in 2.0 when you could give them +3 to hit pretty easily (target 1 thing, hurricanum, lord-ordinator), but now that they are capped at a 4+ to hit at the best, you might as well just leave these guys on the shelf till cities gets a new book. Helblaster volley gun. You are either doing poor damage, or you are doing equal damage as a cheaper unit of handgunners would, but with a chance of just not doing anything. Again, leave them on your shelf till cities gets a new book and then maybe see if they improved enough to be worth taking. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readercolin Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 As for discussion points: I regularly grab battlemages in many of my cities lists, though sometimes I'll grab a knight-incantor or a sorceress instead - but I usually default to battlemages. I also regularly grab some freeguild guard and handgunners if I need something cheap to shove in for battleline purposes, but generally don't go out of my way to run them. That being said, the core of most of my lists are Phoenix Guard, and I usually start my list with an annointed and some phoenix guard, and then fill out the rest of my armies after that. As for endless spells, the Lifeswarm can still be good with phoenix guard, but I usually don't find it all that worthwhile with other units (they generally end up losing too many models to make it worth it to try to bring them back), though I might try it with more units once the FAQ for fyreslayers comes out, as rally on a 4+ AND lifeswarm may be enough recursion to be worth it for additional units. I've tried some other endless spells (bridge, spell portal, purple sun, burning head, aethervoid pendulum, and Gnashing Jaws), and about the only one that I will run even semi-regularly is the burning head because for 20 points I can just fit it in sometimes without trying. The damaging spells aren't worth bringing for 1-3 mortal wounds on average, the purple sun going wild every time I cast it before I even move it for the first time is super annoying, we don't have high enough impact spells to make the spell portal particularly useful, and the bridge being limited to a single unit going through it now means that jumping through to shoot em up (ex. irondrakes) leaves that unit flapping about in the breeze and easily dealt with. Basically, every single endless spell needs to drop in points fairly significantly, and they really need to make the purple sun not go wild on you too. Finally, what will the dawnbringer crusades bring to humans. The biggest thing is just a general 3.0 update that makes fewer things reliant on the to hit stacking, which made them good in 2.0 but underpowered with the cap in 3.0. I think that if they re-balance the units to not be relying on that to be strong(ish), that everything else will sort out fairly well, though I could also see some upgrades for demigryphs to make them scary even in MSU units, or add retreat+shoot and charge to pisoliers. Finally, giving steam tanks more fixed numbers instead of randomness everywhere would be nice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Krungharr Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 I was very close getting a giant unit of Greatswords, but decided to get ugly old metal Treelords instead. But wow they seem like wrecking balls if you can avoid them dying. I think perhaps running them with a Luminark for the ward save bubble might be a great use of the Luminark too. They can be hitting and wounding on 2s, plus the MWs; seem top notch to me, not super duper pricy compared to other similar units like Graveguard are they? I think they qualify as top tier. Melee hits in both turns. Shooting only in one turn. Crossbowmen more middle tier to me. Can't argue with mucho buffable dakka from 2 feet away but the no rend is worrisome. Outflanking in Living City and they can pepper weakling heroes from any side of the table....and then move in to take an objective perhaps. More advanced Ungor Raiders I guess? Steam tanks are like the Ghost Rider of Cities units, their greatest power is looking cool! Still, I like it for a distraction carnifex of sorts, running as a wingman/machine with my Hurricanum it can Unleash Heck if needed, and sometimes do decent damage in melee. And best of all, it's pretty.....'tanky'🤓 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 Good points, @readercolin. I think I'd like to respond to a few select ones: 14 hours ago, readercolin said: Freeguild General. Yes, I think this is a top tier hero, not a bottom tier hero. But the ability to give a conditional +1 to hit AND wound, and that condition is "don't move" which is also a condition that crossbows/handgunners want to meet anyways is powerful, even before you consider that he gives it to 3 different units. As a 100 point support piece, I would rather grab this guy than most other potential hero's. I personally rate the Freeguild General low because, while his ability an affect several units and provides a good bonus, it doesn't synergize with what most of them want to be doing. The Freeguild has no infantry anvil that can receive a charge and then hit back hard, which I think would be the main use case for the Freeguild General's ability on a melee unit. The following units I don't think make good targets for Hold the Line: Freeguild Guard don't want to be in super large units and don't deal good damage either way. Greatswords want to charge if possible. Outriders and Pistoliers want to make use of their mobility. That leaves Handgunners, Demigryph Knights and Crossbows. The buff is inefficient on Handgunners. Bringing 10 extra Handgunners is better until you go over 40 in total. On Demigryph Knights, it's debatably good. If you run them with halberds and use them as a mobile anvil rather than trying to get the charge, I think the buff may be worth it. Buffing Crossbows is probably the best use case, since they don't get a free +1 to hit on their warscroll like a lot of the other Freeguild units do. For them, bringing a General becomes efficient if you have 20 or more (compared to spending to point on just bringing more crossbows). Overall I rate the guy low because I generally find the guaranteed utility of just 10 more bodies outweigh the benefits he brings to the table. Although, fair enough: There is probably a Crossbow and Demigryph list where he's really worth it. 15 hours ago, readercolin said: Steam Tank Commander. A steam tank with a commander is a slightly better steam tank. If steam tanks were remotely useful, I might bring this guy up to mid tier, but they remain a remarkably un-reliably, swingy unit that is inconsistent in its movement and its damage output. Even if they reduced this guys points, I probably still wouldn't run them, because you still can't rely on them to accomplish anything consistently. Sure, if you do nothing but roll hot, they can seem good, but even if they are rolling hot they still aren't bringing home any prizes. I really stand by this guy even with all the random garbage on his warscroll. He offers something that I think is valuable: He's a survivable hero that you can use as a platform for whatever cool aura command trait your city of choice has access to. In that role, he really performs fine. 12 wounds on a 3+ that can easily be a 2+ in most situations, plus a d3 heal in the hero phase on his warscroll will stick around for a while. A lot of other stuff on his warscroll is OK too in the right circumstances. He gets the 30" range cannon and Long Rifle to help take out low-health support heroes. He gets a +1 to hit command to self-buff with that is not All-Out Attack. He gets impact hits for a few incidental mortals if he gets a charge. He can use More Pressure early to help him get into position. If you give him an Arcane Tome, he makes good use of Mystic Shield and Metamorphosis. All in all, I think that makes him mid tier. You can put him into a list and not feel bad about it. Still, I hope in the next revision they remove most of the randomness that is still on the warscroll. That stuff is a hold-over from Fantasy, anyway. None of the other war machines have to deal with this garbage (Skaven excluded). 15 hours ago, readercolin said: Outriders. So outriders CAN actually match handgunners if they get a +1 to hit (say, from a hurricanum). The problem basically boils down to the fact that they have a 5+ to hit base, and this was good enough when you could stack +1 to hit effects (ex. sit still near a hurricanum + freeguild general), to bring it down to a 3+ to hit, but the base 5+ to hit is just too swingy. The lack of general battleline status outside of tempest eye also hurts their usability some, and the loss of the tempest eye battalion also loses some of their power, but at the moment there is just not a good enough reason to run outriders over another shooting unit in the cities. Give them a base 4+ to hit though and I would run them. There is something weird about that 5+ to hit. Having a bad to hit value makes it so that a unit benefits more from +1 to hit. It's easy to understand if you look at what going 6+ to hit to 5+ would do: It would double your damage output, since you now hit twice as many shots than before. If a unit has a 5+ to hit, but their damage output is already OK, that doesn't have to strictly be a drawback. I think Outriders really have a niche as skirmishers in a Freeguild force. They have the tools to always be out of range of the opponent and bring with them some much needed mobility. Since they shoot comparably well to Handgunners, I think you can justify including a unit or two of these guys in a list sometimes. --- 4 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said: I was very close getting a giant unit of Greatswords, but decided to get ugly old metal Treelords instead. But wow they seem like wrecking balls if you can avoid them dying. I think perhaps running them with a Luminark for the ward save bubble might be a great use of the Luminark too. They can be hitting and wounding on 2s, plus the MWs; seem top notch to me, not super duper pricy compared to other similar units like Graveguard are they? I think they qualify as top tier. Melee hits in both turns. Shooting only in one turn. I might be overvaluing Greatswords, but I definitely feel that a unit that basically kills anything it touches will always have a place in a list. Greateswords definitely get there even with minimal buffs. I don't think they are quite as good as Grave Guard, which have a lot of other stuff going for them as well (most importantly the ability to deep strike and resurrect), but they are still very dangerous if you manage to get them into the opponent. I have had a Luminark sitting on my desk since I got that Broken Realms double buff wagon pack when it came out. I really want to try making it work some time. Maybe in this case the uncrewed version is actually the way to go. Paying 55 points for the ability to cast another spell is cheap, but I personally don't value single-cast wizards without casting bonuses very highly. All their magic is at best a coin flip if you have to get through an unbind. 4 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said: Crossbowmen more middle tier to me. Can't argue with mucho buffable dakka from 2 feet away but the no rend is worrisome. Outflanking in Living City and they can pepper weakling heroes from any side of the table....and then move in to take an objective perhaps. More advanced Ungor Raiders I guess? I said something similar about Outriders above, but if the overall damage output of a unit is already good, you don't really have to worry about the values that make up the attack profile. In the case of Crossbows, I really think they deliver a good performance even without rend. They are one of the few ranged units that actually performs well shooting at regular troops and not just sniping out characters. It's kind of sad that they are probably the best shooting unit for humans right now, since they are definitely the least cool looking one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightbox Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 Something that I didn't notice mentioned (apologies if it was) in favour of some of the foot troops is the fact that the cities allegiance abilities love them, if you take a freeguild general and a battlemage (or two battlemages) you can happily have them chill out together for the bonus CP and whatever unit they are using to screen them can be their retainers to give them a little bit more survivability. It's probably not huge in the grand scheme of things but is interesting to consider. Especially if you're using the general to buff a bunch of crossbows then getting the free CP is pretty helpful for that. If nothing else having your screen for your buffing battlemage to soak up some wounds definitely puts him above the grif mage even more. But I think that @Neil Arthur Hotep has a point in there's something to be said for the tank commander with arcane tome. He ends up being nice and survivable for magic he's also not a bad choice to bind an incarnate too thanks to his tankyness (he gets more tanky with the +1 save relic from ironweld arsenal and that city also boosts his cannon range iirc, not the best city sure but worth considering if you like the choo choo tanks) I also think greatswords can be great (ba-dum-tshhh) but I have often found them to be somewhat swingy, they can end up being quite reliant on those 6's for mortals and they don't have quite so much survivability as other units (4+ save base isn't bad but with 1 wound each those battleshock casualties can add up fast especially if they are elite hunting... which they probably should be as they're pricey and do mortals) however I also really don't think every unit should be packing after saves / mortal protections so I'm fine with the survivability aspect but it is something to consider, if they aren't able to reach their targets and you whiff their first round of attacks then chances are they are going to experience a world of hurt. However if used well and with luck on your side they can absolutely shred other units. It will always hurt me how bad artillery has become for cities, at least before the tome changes the rocket batteries could ignore line of sight... but I still feel they could have some use in certain matchups (and likely more casual games) as their range is very good and in the right position they could really irritate an opponent by peppering shots into units or heroes and threatening weakened things from a distance. They are in desperate need of a warscroll change though or at the very least a points drop. Unfortunately I think the best option for a more artillery based human list would be a battery of steam tanks and praying for luck. Which is a shame because the artillery has always felt like it should be a big thematic thing for freeguild as they are one of the few armies with proper gunpowder artillery and if done right they could become a great supporting fire piece. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readercolin Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: I personally rate the Freeguild General low because, while his ability an affect several units and provides a good bonus, it doesn't synergize with what most of them want to be doing. The Freeguild has no infantry anvil that can receive a charge and then hit back hard, which I think would be the main use case for the Freeguild General's ability on a melee unit. So if you look at the numbers, for crossbows the general +20 crossbows is better than 30 crossbows. For handgunners, the general + 40 handgunners is better than 50 handgunners. Just existing is enough to give greatswords +1 to hit, and I would rather get that from a general on foot than pay an extra 190 points for a griffon. This is especially because if I want to fit in a battle regiment, I want to do so with a hurricanum, not with a griffon. Overall, I think the first general is worth bringing, but a second is generally never worth it. This being said, I do only think that the general is worth it if you are going human heavy, and I generally don't run one. However, most of my armies are built around either a core of annointed + phoenix guard, or I am running some minimum battleline so that I can build the rest of my army around monsters, stormcast, etc. 4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: I really stand by this guy even with all the random garbage on his warscroll. He offers something that I think is valuable: He's a survivable hero that you can use as a platform for whatever cool aura command trait your city of choice has access to. In that role, he really performs fine. 12 wounds on a 3+ that can easily be a 2+ in most situations, plus a d3 heal in the hero phase on his warscroll will stick around for a while. So if you want a tanky general, you can go with the steam tank. Or you can go with an annointed on frostheart phoenix. Thats the part that I always keep coming back to - if I want a tanky aura carrier, I can use one that is tankier, more reliable, and can actually get over to where I need him. Sure, if you are human focused and you refuse to run elves, then I guess the steam tank is the best option you can get, but personally I would rather kitbash something to get the appearance I'm looking for than to go with something that inferior. Now, even if all they changed about the steam tank was his random movement, and I could reliably get him where I wanted him to go, then I might change my mind about this. But I've had enough games where I just got unlucky with my rolls that I don't want to run something that can go 2", or can go 12", and I don't know how far that is going to be before I decide to move him. I would prefer if they also made his damage output less random, but if I just want a tanky aura carrier, then his damage is less important than being where I want him to be. 4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: There is something weird about that 5+ to hit. Having a bad to hit value makes it so that a unit benefits more from +1 to hit. It's easy to understand if you look at what going 6+ to hit to 5+ would do: It would double your damage output, since you now hit twice as many shots than before. If a unit has a 5+ to hit, but their damage output is already OK, that doesn't have to strictly be a drawback. I think Outriders really have a niche as skirmishers in a Freeguild force. They have the tools to always be out of range of the opponent and bring with them some much needed mobility. Since they shoot comparably well to Handgunners, I think you can justify including a unit or two of these guys in a list sometimes. Outriders may have a niche as skirmishers, but if you are using them as skirmishers then you are likely going to be out of range for your +1 to hit buffs. If you aren't using them as skirmishers to keep them nearer to your buffs, then I think that crossbows are going to better serve you. On top of this, if I want a mobile threat piece that can harrass weak points, I would rather bring shadow warriors than outriders - though that does take you away from the human focus. If you are insisting on looking at only humans, then maybe they can rate a mid tier, but if you look at cities as a whole then they are definitely bottom tier. 4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: I might be overvaluing Greatswords, but I definitely feel that a unit that basically kills anything it touches will always have a place in a list. Greateswords definitely get there even with minimal buffs. I don't think they are quite as good as Grave Guard, which have a lot of other stuff going for them as well (most importantly the ability to deep strike and resurrect), but they are still very dangerous if you manage to get them into the opponent. I have had a Luminark sitting on my desk since I got that Broken Realms double buff wagon pack when it came out. I really want to try making it work some time. Maybe in this case the uncrewed version is actually the way to go. Paying 55 points for the ability to cast another spell is cheap, but I personally don't value single-cast wizards without casting bonuses very highly. All their magic is at best a coin flip if you have to get through an unbind. So my problem with greatswords is that they can't kill most things that they touch. With a +1 to hit (trivially achieved), a unit of 10 of them are dishing out an average of 11.67 damage before saves, and 7.78 damage to a 4+ save. If you say that the average target that you are going to hit is 10 wounds with a 4+ save... this isn't going through them. On top of this, this is assuming that you can get TO that target, which is a bit more questionable of a statement. If you have multiple units of greatswords, then you can't hit with one unit and then hit with the second unit without your opponent being able to hit back. Meanwhile, if you have a big block of greatswords, now they can go through something they touch... if they can get there in one piece. On the other hand, you look at their defenses, which is a 4+ save and 1 wound each. Lots of stuff can go through them, or deal enough damage to them to drastically cut off their damage output. At 150 points for a squad of 10, they aren't fast enough to project their force, they aren't survivable enough to take a hit before hitting back, and they don't do enough damage to force your opponent to play around them. For what they do, they are overcosted, and they underperform. In general, I would rather run blocks of shooting units to get my damage out then try to rely on greatswords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted April 22, 2022 Author Share Posted April 22, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, readercolin said: So my problem with greatswords is that they can't kill most things that they touch. With a +1 to hit (trivially achieved), a unit of 10 of them are dishing out an average of 11.67 damage before saves, and 7.78 damage to a 4+ save. If you say that the average target that you are going to hit is 10 wounds with a 4+ save... this isn't going through them. On top of this, this is assuming that you can get TO that target, which is a bit more questionable of a statement. If you have multiple units of greatswords, then you can't hit with one unit and then hit with the second unit without your opponent being able to hit back. Meanwhile, if you have a big block of greatswords, now they can go through something they touch... if they can get there in one piece. On the other hand, you look at their defenses, which is a 4+ save and 1 wound each. Lots of stuff can go through them, or deal enough damage to them to drastically cut off their damage output. At 150 points for a squad of 10, they aren't fast enough to project their force, they aren't survivable enough to take a hit before hitting back, and they don't do enough damage to force your opponent to play around them. For what they do, they are overcosted, and they underperform. In general, I would rather run blocks of shooting units to get my damage out then try to rely on greatswords. I think you have the wrong numbers somehow. Maybe you have a ward turned on in statshammer or didn't make their mortals on hit in addition? I get the following: Save Greatswords 2+ 7.39 3+ 9.33 4+ 11.28 5+ 13.22 6+ 15.17 - 15.17 They certainly wipe other 10 wound units on average with +1 to hit and their damage stays quite good even against high saves. Edited April 22, 2022 by Neil Arthur Hotep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readercolin Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: I think you have the wrong numbers somehow. Maybe you have a ward turned on in statshammer or didn't make their mortals on hit in addition? I get the following: Save Greatswords 2+ 7.39 3+ 9.33 4+ 11.28 5+ 13.22 6+ 15.17 - 15.17 They certainly wipe other 10 wound units on average with +1 to hit and their damage stays quite good even against high saves. Yes - I forgot to have the mortals in addition (I blame that on being in too many meetings today). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thugmullet Posted April 26, 2022 Share Posted April 26, 2022 (edited) Wrong post entry sorry. Just ignore me. I'll let myself out now................ Edited April 26, 2022 by Thugmullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted April 29, 2022 Author Share Posted April 29, 2022 On 4/22/2022 at 11:52 AM, Lightbox said: It will always hurt me how bad artillery has become for cities, at least before the tome changes the rocket batteries could ignore line of sight... but I still feel they could have some use in certain matchups (and likely more casual games) as their range is very good and in the right position they could really irritate an opponent by peppering shots into units or heroes and threatening weakened things from a distance. They are in desperate need of a warscroll change though or at the very least a points drop. Unfortunately I think the best option for a more artillery based human list would be a battery of steam tanks and praying for luck. Which is a shame because the artillery has always felt like it should be a big thematic thing for freeguild as they are one of the few armies with proper gunpowder artillery and if done right they could become a great supporting fire piece. I have done the math on a full suite of Rocket Batteries before, and while they are not good, they are at still more efficient than Steam Tanks at long range. I was actually moderately impressed with the Greywater battalion during 2.0, which could be used to buff Cities artillery to the point where they could pretty reliably shoot a god model off the table turn 1. But now, without access to shooting twice and without being as buffable as they used to be, they can only manage a 6 wound foot hero most of the time. Which certainly is a huge flavour fail: The best use for our unreliable, inaccurate rocket artillery is not softening up opposing battleline or shelling buildings, but sniping little support characters with pinpoint accuracy. I think there is a good chance that the Ironweld Arsenal subfaction gets expanded upon when Cities gets their battletome update. GW certainly seems to pick out "steam-powered war machines" as one of the things that is cool about Cities in their fluff and their advertising material. Looking at the battletomes released so far, I am fairly positive about the future of the Steam Tank and artillery units. I think the writers are more willing to move away from the roots of how these units worked in Fantasy now. And, let's be honest, the Ironweld units realistically have nowhere to go but up. It would be hard to make them worse. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EntMan Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 20 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: I have done the math on a full suite of Rocket Batteries before, and while they are not good, they are at still more efficient than Steam Tanks at long range. I was actually moderately impressed with the Greywater battalion during 2.0, which could be used to buff Cities artillery to the point where they could pretty reliably shoot a god model off the table turn 1. But now, without access to shooting twice and without being as buffable as they used to be, they can only manage a 6 wound foot hero most of the time. Which certainly is a huge flavour fail: The best use for our unreliable, inaccurate rocket artillery is not softening up opposing battleline or shelling buildings, but sniping little support characters with pinpoint accuracy. I think there is a good chance that the Ironweld Arsenal subfaction gets expanded upon when Cities gets their battletome update. GW certainly seems to pick out "steam-powered war machines" as one of the things that is cool about Cities in their fluff and their advertising material. Looking at the battletomes released so far, I am fairly positive about the future of the Steam Tank and artillery units. I think the writers are more willing to move away from the roots of how these units worked in Fantasy now. And, let's be honest, the Ironweld units realistically have nowhere to go but up. It would be hard to make them worse. EXPAND THE IRONWELD! But please keep them mixed dwarves and have humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 3, 2022 Author Share Posted May 3, 2022 Let's make this thread into a bit of a hobby thread, as well. I want to see some cool Freeguild armies! I have been working on this mostly mechanized army for a while: It's been fun. I wanted to have a more elite force after painting a skeleton horde for Gravelords previously. I picked up an old Watchtower kit from ebay recently: It still looks very good. I kind of like them better than the current Ghurish Expanse kits. They look a little too much like Stormcast terrain, rather than Cities terrain for my taste. Although it makes sense, Dawnbringer settlements are supposed to start from a Stormkeep, after all. I have also been working on a bunch if Rocket Battery crew: I really love those weirdo Freeguild models. For me, they are kind of like Beasts of Chaos are for other people: I can admit that their models are objectively not the best, but I just love them. Finally, a secret hobby pro tip: If you have leftover parts from building a Gyrocopter, use on of the bombs from the Gyrobomber assembly to give your outrider a cooler-looking grenade-launching blunderbuss. One that doesn't look like he's carrying a vase. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 6, 2022 Author Share Posted May 6, 2022 Now that Dawnbringer Crusades are definitely upon us, what does everyone think this will mean for the existing human kits? I honestly find it hard to predict which kits will stick around. I think Guard, Handgunners and Crossbows will definitely be replaced. Outriders and Pistoliers also don't really hold up that well and will probably be replaced or just dropped. The artillery models still look cool, but the crew is pretty crusty and they could definitely be replaced with more impressive new options. But other than that, I don't know if there is a good reason to replace any other existing kits. Flagellants hold up OK for what they are. Greatswords look good and don't hvae any out of place heraldry on them. Demigryphs could honestly be AoS originals. I find it hard to predict what will happen with the big kits. The Hurricanum pretty obviously says KARL FRANZ on it, which doesn't really make sense for AoS, but it otherwise looks very appropriate for the game (and Luminarks had a big role in Broken Realms). The Griffon kit has some old world stuff on it, but it's probably the best model out of the old Empire range. The Steam Tank is a pretty classic model, too. My prediction is that we will see a lot more characterful infantry and cavalry out of the Dawnbringer Crusades, as well as an expansion of the Devoted to Sigmar subfaction and the Ironweld. Replace all the basic troops that really need it, keep the best kits, and add a lot more of the unique stuff that the Cities of Sigmar already have according to the fluff, but that has not been realized on the tabletop. I think that would make for a really cool release. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAsPlanned Posted May 6, 2022 Share Posted May 6, 2022 Most of the pre-existing human kits are gonna get yeeted away. I could see maybe the newer ones like the Hurricanum and the Freeguild Captain on the Griffon sticking around a bit longer, but so much of the range has aged like milk compared to even some of the newer Wanderers and Darkling stuff. The REAL questions that keep me awake at night is whether the non human factions are gonna get cut away, and whether they’re entirely gonna ditch the enlightenment aesthetic in favour of 40k style grimderp gothic stuff. Cause both of those are the literal worst case scenarios imo 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbarian Borelord Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 On 4/29/2022 at 2:11 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said: I have done the math on a full suite of Rocket Batteries before, and while they are not good, they are at still more efficient than Steam Tanks at long range. I was actually moderately impressed with the Greywater battalion during 2.0, which could be used to buff Cities artillery to the point where they could pretty reliably shoot a god model off the table turn 1. But now, without access to shooting twice and without being as buffable as they used to be, they can only manage a 6 wound foot hero most of the time. Which certainly is a huge flavour fail: The best use for our unreliable, inaccurate rocket artillery is not softening up opposing battleline or shelling buildings, but sniping little support characters with pinpoint accuracy. The Hellstorm should be more like Roaming Wildfire and Chain Lightning if they want to reflect the idea of inaccurate rockets flying all over the place: hitting a target and also the target 6'' next to it. Or maybe it doesn't hit the intended target at all but it does the one next to it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doko Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 I really disliked empire when i was kid(20 years ago) but i started to get fond with totalwar, i have a dwarf and elfs city of sigmar army and i was waiting for new world to get new empire models that dont be so ugly as actuals(only swordmens are ok). But seems new empire gonna be all around religion,gothic,barroque etc similar to 40k empire or sisters of battle that i HATE. I hope new empire have some simple units as heavy armored dudes with regular armor so i can buy them and skipp all the too much out of my taste units as the giant statue pulled by flagelants from the art etc. Im happy due to new units,but sad because i love regular fantasy look and i have a irracional hate for things with too much religion or gothic as sisters of battle and seems new empire go in that direccion. I just want a revamped and upgraded human with armor,not want a human with 999999 religious marks, skulls,seals etc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OG SCE Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 One of the things that drew me to COS was nostalgia. Essentially, now that I'm hitting 40, I can afford to buy all the stuff I wanted, but couldn't afford, when I was much younger. Gyrocopters, steam tanks, drakespawn riders etc. It would be a shame if all that were lost. As an example from another faction, I was pumped to see that Chao dwarfs may return soon, but the new centaurian and Horns of Hashut just dont do it for me. The same was true of the Legion of Asgaroth. I guess i don't really want new dwarfs. I want the big hats, beards, and tauruses from way back when. Also, I think the variety of options in our current battletome is awesome. So many ways to build and play. I think it's one of the best from 2.0. Personally, I would rather the new humans are presented as a new battletome. Then COS can just fade away into the background without an abrupt squatting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warboss Gorbolg Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 It can be so hard to guess where GW is going from a model perspective. My hunch is that instead of releasing a generic human faction, we’re going to get something strongly themed like what they’ve done with Warcry warbands and in AoS proper, Lumineth. Then over time we’ll get new human themes that expand the faction. Just my guess. For some reason I really dislike horses in the AoS setting. Like how did they get here? Wouldn’t mind seeing all those go away in the new human faction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted May 11, 2022 Author Share Posted May 11, 2022 On 5/9/2022 at 3:46 PM, OG SCE said: One of the things that drew me to COS was nostalgia. Essentially, now that I'm hitting 40, I can afford to buy all the stuff I wanted, but couldn't afford, when I was much younger. Gyrocopters, steam tanks, drakespawn riders etc. It would be a shame if all that were lost. As an example from another faction, I was pumped to see that Chao dwarfs may return soon, but the new centaurian and Horns of Hashut just dont do it for me. The same was true of the Legion of Asgaroth. I guess i don't really want new dwarfs. I want the big hats, beards, and tauruses from way back when. Also, I think the variety of options in our current battletome is awesome. So many ways to build and play. I think it's one of the best from 2.0. Personally, I would rather the new humans are presented as a new battletome. Then COS can just fade away into the background without an abrupt squatting. I personally think that there is no real reason to suspect that the Dawnbringer Crusades mean that the other subfactions of Cities will be removed. Or even that the Freeguild will no longer be a thing. Both of those would be major retcons of the established lore. I suspect that there will be a Freeguild refresh, which might entail the loss of some units. We probably don't strictly need both Outriders and Pistoliers, or Handgunners and Crossbows. Freeguild Guard probably don't need three loadouts. If those kits get updated, they might just be one build option. Other than that, I could imagine kits with very specific Empire markings going. Maybe the General on Griffon will be replaced, since he's very clearly just Karl Franz from the Old World. On 5/9/2022 at 9:14 PM, Warboss Gorbolg said: It can be so hard to guess where GW is going from a model perspective. My hunch is that instead of releasing a generic human faction, we’re going to get something strongly themed like what they’ve done with Warcry warbands and in AoS proper, Lumineth. Then over time we’ll get new human themes that expand the faction. Just my guess. For some reason I really dislike horses in the AoS setting. Like how did they get here? Wouldn’t mind seeing all those go away in the new human faction. I speculated in the other thread that we might see two things: A Freeguild refresh which makes those units more clearly AoS units, and a bunch of Warcry warband style specialist units. The former would form the core of shared troops among the different Free Cities, while the latter could be used to explore more concepts of the different people of the Mortal Realms. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamose Posted May 11, 2022 Share Posted May 11, 2022 On 5/3/2022 at 5:32 AM, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Let's make this thread into a bit of a hobby thread, as well. I want to see some cool Freeguild armies! Excellent idea! Here's my Free City of Hogsface in the magical land of Foon (based on the Hello from the Magic Tavern podcast). I went with deep greens to match leaves of McShingleshane Forest where Hogsface is found. My city's rules are Hallowheart since there are many wizards roaming around Foon. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.