To TOs and gaming groups: Let Fyreslayers use their old rules till their battletome arrives

[pnkdth]

As per the title, we humble ask to be able to use fully developed rules as opposed to the half-baked ones in the Fury of the Deep set. We would rather not have to wait X amount of months till we see the full picture and instead enjoy the game in full. It might make sense then but for now it it is an overall nerf across the army which was not deserved or make sense. After the official release it is what it is. However, for now, I ask for a short reprieve.

Thanks in advance and happy hobbying!

[Clan's Cynic]

I remember when there was an obvious typo for Neophyte Hybrids in 40k being something stupid like 120pts each and a lot of tournaments still insisted on them being run RAW.

Don't hold your breath.

[pnkdth]

2 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

I remember when there was an obvious typo for Neophyte Hybrids in 40k being something stupid like 120pts each and a lot of tournaments still insisted on them being run RAW.

Don't hold your breath.

Probably right but yeah. That said, HoS are looking good in comparison now, so there's that!

[Svalack]

Whilst i agree that the nerfs to vulkite & auric were unnecessary and rather odd, i don't think its healthy to pick and choose what rules to use just cause your army got negative changes/nerfed this time, it opens up to other armies argueing they want to use older versions of the rules/un-faq things.

Despite being a statistically fat middle army, Fyreslayers are generally hated and considered not fun to play against so i doubt there will be much sympathy from non-fs players. HGB were perhaps due a nerf.

There has been no confirmation of a battletome coming yet either, so it might not be a 'can i use the old rules for a few weeks', it could be months away.

[yukishiro1]

It is extremely stupid of GW to release new points for units without releasing the new books those new points values are obviously based on. But this is GW, something being extremely stupid has never stopped them from doing it in the past, and it won't stop them from doing it in the future. It's just another example that GW's release schedule is based around money, not around creating a good game. 

In the past, it wasn't unusual for AOS events to prohibit the use of a new book until the first FAQ had been released, because quality control was so poor. That seems to have faded away recently, however - which I am not convinced is a positive change. If that were still true, however, it would seem analogous to the situation here - if you can't use a new book until the first FAQ, it would follow that you shouldn't be using rules from a new boxed set at least until a FAQ is released, and presumably not until the book the boxed set is based upon is released as well. 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by yukishiro1

[pnkdth]

1 hour ago, Svalack said:

Whilst i agree that the nerfs to vulkite & auric were unnecessary and rather odd, i don't think its healthy to pick and choose what rules to use just cause your army got negative changes/nerfed this time, it opens up to other armies argueing they want to use older versions of the rules/un-faq things.

Despite being a statistically fat middle army, Fyreslayers are generally hated and considered not fun to play against so i doubt there will be much sympathy from non-fs players. HGB were perhaps due a nerf.

There has been no confirmation of a battletome coming yet either, so it might not be a 'can i use the old rules for a few weeks', it could be months away.

Fair enough. After simmering down I'll chalk this post up to frustration boiling over after also being burnt when starting HoS. This time it was like, "not again..." 😆

[Doko]

For casual play for sure something can be spoken with you friend,but for tournament i doubt nobody gonna let us use old rules.

Myself allways prefer use up to date rules even in this situation.

But really the army isnt playable at competitive with new rules as we are at bonesplitter level. We have gone of be 6\10 army to a 2\10 army lol

 

I guess magmadroths spam didnt got any nerf......a shame our magmas are bad allready hahah

[Gailon]

Have a FS player in an ongoing PtG game and will definitely use old rules. 
 

im not even convinced these count as ‘new rules.’ They are warscroll cards that come in a battle box right? Not an faq not an errata. Are they officially released by GW anywhere other than in this one box? Since when are we reliant on leaks online for ‘official’ rules. 
 

Maybe I’m missing something. But the cards in the box seem like rules for the box. Until these scrolls and points are out in the faq/errata documents. 

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, you're right. I think people are assuming they will release a document next Saturday when the box "goes live" that has the warscrolls, and/or update them in the app. But until that happens, they aren't real rules. 

[Baron Klatz]

56 minutes ago, Gailon said:

Have a FS player in an ongoing PtG game and will definitely use old rules. 
 

im not even convinced these count as ‘new rules.’ They are warscroll cards that come in a battle box right? Not an faq not an errata. Are they officially released by GW anywhere other than in this one box? Since when are we reliant on leaks online for ‘official’ rules. 
 

Maybe I’m missing something. But the cards in the box seem like rules for the box. Until these scrolls and points are out in the faq/errata documents. 

I’ve seen others wonder that too or at the very least leave the priest keyword out to not have to put a prayer section in. I brought that up in the Fyreslayer thread and several people pointed out it’s never happened before so not likely here either.(though I still wonder about the simplified data sheets 3.0 is starting to use)

We’ll know for sure when the app is updated and if these rules stick. They actually might remain box level until the actual battletome drops and we see the full puzzle completed instead of using random pieces of it.  

 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Squark]

3 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

I’ve seen others wonder that too or at the very least leave the priest keyword out to not have to put a prayer section in. I brought that up in the Fyreslayer thread and several people pointed out it’s never happened before so not likely here either.(though I still wonder about the simplified data sheets 3.0 is starting to use)

As far as 3rd edition goes, I don't think we saw Keywords or abilities added to the dominion models, but we did see Boltboyz and Gutrippaz get command models added to their warscroll. So I wouldn't get your hopes up for the addition of priest, but also wouldn't be gobsmacked if the keyword was added.

[Beliman]

Marshcrawla recieved the Kruleboyz keyword in a FAQ.

It's not the same but whatever.

[Joseph Mackay]

9 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

It is extremely stupid of GW to release new points for units without releasing the new books those new points values are obviously based on. But this is GW, something being extremely stupid has never stopped them from doing it in the past, and it won't stop them from doing it in the future. It's just another example that GW's release schedule is based around money, not around creating a good game. 

In the past, it wasn't unusual for AOS events to prohibit the use of a new book until the first FAQ had been released, because quality control was so poor. That seems to have faded away recently, however - which I am not convinced is a positive change. If that were still true, however, it would seem analogous to the situation here - if you can't use a new book until the first FAQ, it would follow that you shouldn't be using rules from a new boxed set at least until a FAQ is released, and presumably not until the book the boxed set is based upon is released as well. 

 

That was fine when faqs were exactly 2 weeks after release, but now that it’s just whenever gw feels like it/remembers about it, that doesn’t work anymore, sadly

Edited January 16, 2022 by Joseph Mackay

[Joseph Mackay]

7 hours ago, Gailon said:

Have a FS player in an ongoing PtG game and will definitely use old rules. 
 

im not even convinced these count as ‘new rules.’ They are warscroll cards that come in a battle box right? Not an faq not an errata. Are they officially released by GW anywhere other than in this one box? Since when are we reliant on leaks online for ‘official’ rules. 
 

Maybe I’m missing something. But the cards in the box seem like rules for the box. Until these scrolls and points are out in the faq/errata documents. 

This take makes no sense as there’s no president for it. Battle box rules are 100% offical, and replace any previous rules, at the time of release date. Warscroll cards in the boxes before have never been ‘watered down’ or ‘specially for this box/campaign only’ (warscroll battalions, sure). Closest thing to that is the 40K boxes where you still need the codex, because rules shared by multiple units, or that trigger off a keyword are found in the army rules section rather than the datasheets for units

[Gailon]

1 hour ago, Joseph Mackay said:

This take makes no sense as there’s no president for it. Battle box rules are 100% offical, and replace any previous rules, at the time of release date. Warscroll cards in the boxes before have never been ‘watered down’ or ‘specially for this box/campaign only’ (warscroll battalions, sure). Closest thing to that is the 40K boxes where you still need the codex, because rules shared by multiple units, or that trigger off a keyword are found in the army rules section rather than the datasheets for units

I’d be on board with this as long as these rules are also released with the box in the faq or similar document. And maybe they do that. 
 

I agree these are official rules, but I suspect they are meant to go with the battletome. Considering the timeline of how these are written. If the Tome is delayed then I would absolutely be in agreement with GW not pushing these warscrolls in the FAQ right away. 
 

my point is just that if they don’t do that then in order to play these rules we’d be playing them off internet leaks (unless we bought the box). That seems bonkers to me. Why would official rules for models people currently own only be found from YouTube screenshots? 
 

I guess this all changes pretty quickly if GW just replaces the warscrolls in the app as soon as the box releases. 

[Fairbanks]

I’m not reading 70 pages of Rumour Thread and their off topic discussion to search for the rules (Will the mods fix this please?). Post them here or I don’t care.

[Joseph Mackay]

2 hours ago, Gailon said:

I’d be on board with this as long as these rules are also released with the box in the faq or similar document. And maybe they do that. 
 

I agree these are official rules, but I suspect they are meant to go with the battletome. Considering the timeline of how these are written. If the Tome is delayed then I would absolutely be in agreement with GW not pushing these warscrolls in the FAQ right away. 
 

my point is just that if they don’t do that then in order to play these rules we’d be playing them off internet leaks (unless we bought the box). That seems bonkers to me. Why would official rules for models people currently own only be found from YouTube screenshots? 
 

I guess this all changes pretty quickly if GW just replaces the warscrolls in the app as soon as the box releases. 

With the exception of Dominion (for obvious reasons), the old app updated with the battle box warscrolls after release, so there’s no reason to think they won’t do the same here

[yukishiro1]

Oh for sure. The point he was just making is that until the FAQs/app are updated, those rules in the box aren't active. They're rules that will become active at some point, but they don't apply to the game until they're memorialized somewhere besides in the box. If the app gets updated on release Saturday, they'll become the new rules at that time. 

I mean, maybe that's wrong. But I don't think boxes are official sources of rules that update the rules of the game on their own until they're incorporated in some sort of printed document. It doesn't seem right that a box would overwrite existing rules with the only way to get the new rules being buying the box - that should occur when the new warscrolls make it into the app or a FAQ. 

This actually just happened with the 40k box for GSC and Custodes, which came out a week before the new Codexes. I can't find any info online about how people treated it. Presumably on Saturday they'll update the app and/or do a FAQ and it won't be an issue, but if they don't, it's a bit of a strange place to leave those warscrolls at. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by yukishiro1

[Joseph Mackay]

5 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Oh for sure. The point he was just making is that until the FAQs/app are updated, those rules in the box aren't active. They're rules that will become active at some point, but they don't apply to the game until they're memorialized somewhere besides in the box. If the app gets updated on release Saturday, they'll become the new rules at that time. 

I mean, maybe that's wrong. But I don't think boxes are official sources of rules that update the rules of the game on their own until they're incorporated in some sort of printed document. It doesn't seem right that a box would overwrite existing rules with the only way to get the new rules being buying the box - that should occur when the new warscrolls make it into the app or a FAQ. 

This actually just happened with the 40k box for GSC and Custodes, which came out a week before the new Codexes. I can't find any info online about how people treated it. Presumably on Saturday they'll update the app and/or do a FAQ and it won't be an issue, but if they don't, it's a bit of a strange place to leave those warscrolls at. 

Genestealer Cult/Custodes was somewhat unique, in that gw outright stated the books were due at the same time as the box but were delayed outside of their control. Beyond that, the AoS app has always updated to the newest rules. Also prior to AoS3 the warscrolls were free downloads off the webstore as soon as preorders went live

[NinthMusketeer]

Underserved or not, rules are rules; by all means issue criticism but still gotta live with em.

[pnkdth]

1 hour ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Underserved or not, rules are rules; by all means issue criticism but still gotta live with em.

Personally, I decided not to start the army for now. Since it is very likely the book is arriving in a near future and FS players being downright miserable right now I certainly won't stand in the way of them using the old warscrolls till the new book completes the picture. It is a game, after all, and homebrew or house ruling it is always an option. Not as likely for tournaments but they could easily claim that because the new scrolls are not widely distributed they're not valid for tournament use.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by pnkdth

[NinthMusketeer]

Fyreslayers were and are quite potent when fielded the right way--not winning tournaments perhaps but a solid 4-1 army. The reality is Hzerkers are OP for the cost, because they are priced as 2W infantry when realistically speaking they act as 4W infantry on the field. But the upcoming nerf to aurics hurts a key piece of Fyreslayer play in 3rd edition and that will doom them in tourney play at least until the new tome.

None of this even touches the issue that spamming that kit is expensive, tedious, and not much fun. Vulkites being inferior further hurts the tiny variety Fyreslayers already have, and the updated warscrolls don't alter that either.

Couple with expensive direct only heroes and an awful set of allegiance abilities only propped up by ludicrously powerful sub-factions... it's no mystery why they are an unpopular army.

[BadDice0809]

I honestly thought the Fyreslayer Runes ability was interesting and well implemented. 6 bluffs, choose the 5 you want per game, in the order as you needed them, with a slight chance of a super buff. Not buffs on top of buffs on to of buffs that build on each other (DoK or LRL). I only wish the Lodges had 'favored' runes that gave them better than a 1/6 chances of 'super' activating. 

However, I suppose there is no point in pretending that FS players were doing anything other than Hermdar with doubling activating HGB blobs until 3rd killed that combo...

[madmac]

9 hours ago, BadDice0809 said:

I honestly thought the Fyreslayer Runes ability was interesting and well implemented. 6 bluffs, choose the 5 you want per game, in the order as you needed them, with a slight chance of a super buff. Not buffs on top of buffs on to of buffs that build on each other (DoK or LRL). I only wish the Lodges had 'favored' runes that gave them better than a 1/6 chances of 'super' activating. 

However, I suppose there is no point in pretending that FS players were doing anything other than Hermdar with doubling activating HGB blobs until 3rd killed that combo...

It was a fun allegiance ability, which is not to be confused with a powerful one. About half the options were nearly useless and super activation realistically never came into play,

[PlasticCraic]

On 1/17/2022 at 5:05 PM, yukishiro1 said:

I mean, maybe that's wrong. But I don't think boxes are official sources of rules that update the rules of the game on their own until they're incorporated in some sort of printed document. 

It's an interesting question.  About a year ago (?), following suggestions from WHW, Warcom printed an official list of documents that were Matched Play legal.  This was a really good idea and at the time it removed things like Firestorm from the game.  I can't find the pdf on the website any more, have they abandoned it?  Or am I just not looking in the right places? 

AFAIK we've gone from having a definitive, unambiguous definition of what is official for Matched Play to having no such thing.  Hmmm.