AoS 3.0 Orruk Warclans: Struggling to see why you would take any Savage Orks?

[Dahawi]

Hi peeps,

 

First time poster, but have been lurking on these forums every since the 3rd edition announcement. You've all had really useful insight that have helped me get my head around the Orruk Warclans, so much so that I have decided to take the plunge and start a Path to Glory army with them.

I really fancy doing a big waaaagh, I love the ascetic of all 3 factions and hope to build a mixed force with elements from each.

However, the warscrolls for the savage orruks just seem really bad to me. I'm not sure why I would ever take any of them bar a caster for the extra Waaaagh point each turn.

Can you guys help me out and show me what I'm missing? Or are they just bad?

Thanks!

 

[bonzai]

20 minutes ago, Dahawi said:

Hi peeps,

 

First time poster, but have been lurking on these forums every since the 3rd edition announcement. You've all had really useful insight that have helped me get my head around the Orruk Warclans, so much so that I have decided to take the plunge and start a Path to Glory army with them.

I really fancy doing a big waaaagh, I love the ascetic of all 3 factions and hope to build a mixed force with elements from each.

However, the warscrolls for the savage orruks just seem really bad to me. I'm not sure why I would ever take any of them bar a caster for the extra Waaaagh point each turn.

Can you guys help me out and show me what I'm missing? Or are they just bad?

Thanks!

 

You are not wrong. The only Bonesplitterz option you might consider is the Wurrgog for his mortal wound output and as a two cast wizard. If you were running a rogue Idol or two it's even better as the casting bonuses make his spell better.. Otherwise they don't offer anything that the other Faction don't already do better.

[Smash]

I find myself in the same situation, and only considering bringing the wurrgog prophet, for waaagh points and his warscroll spell (+ the ghost mist, the generic spell, as I am facing so much shooting). Other than that I don't think it is worth picking. I am even considering just going full ironjawz tbh and allying in a gsg madcap shaman. 

That said, you do get more bodies with a lot of wounds that will hold objectives realy well. 

 

[Dahawi]

I must admit doing vanilla KB or IJ is appealing, but I love the theme of Big Waaagh and have both IJ and KB models so I'm definitely set on sticking with it. I just really would like to have elements of all 3, but Bonesplittas just seem to have terrible to hit and to wound, almost no rend and arent any faster or more survivable really. I guess they're cheaper, but not sure they really justify their points.

The Prophet is an awesome model, and adds 1 WP a turn, so I dare say it may end up in my horde, but that looks to be it. A real shame, I thought being a Monster focused edition they would have an awesome role to play in being the hunters of my WAAAAGH.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Dahawi
grammer

[Malakree]

So savage orruks have three big advantages.

1. Savage Orruks are the same as Gutripperz only 15 points cheaper and with a 6++ ward save.
2. Savage Orruks and Savage Morboyz have the best points per wound in the book.
3. They are battleline in units of 10.

While these don't seem like massive advantages they have some very important ramifications. When you're choosing between gutripperz and savage orruks what you're really picking between is offence and defence. Gutripperz have the mortals on 6s, or with the swampcaller on a 5+, on the other hand Savage Orruks have a 6++ ward and can get +1 to save from the wardokk. So in that regard it's actually quite important to consider what you actually want out of the unit, do you need them to do damage or would you rather they are able to just sit on a point and stall the opponent while your real damage dealers kill stuff.

This then touches on the points differences which is again not irrelevant. Gutripperz+Shaman are 180+105 (285) points compared to the Savage Orruks+Wardokk at 165+80 (245). So opting for the savage orruks saves you a massive 40 points AND gets you that bonesplitterz wizard for the +1. This points difference only goes up as you increase the size of the unit with the Gutripperz costing you 540 points compared to 495 from the Savage Orruks for a total difference of 70 points. 

For the final point there are 3 units which fill that particular unit type slot, Gutripperz, Savage Orruks and Ardboys. Ardboys are somewhere in between the two in terms of damage and survivability but they are really let down by the fact you buy them in units of 5. That means to get the 10 for 170 points you're actually spending a reinforcement slot which might be better spent elsewhere, this might push you over the 5 unit limit for your 1drop battle regiment for example. Not least you cannot actually run a block of 30 ardboys, they come at most in 15s which means you're only putting half of the wounds on the point relatively.

So Bonesplitterz in general do actually fill quite an important position in the book, they do the raw survivability better than any other faction, they put down the wounds and bodies with a native 6++ ward all for a relatively low points cost. Never underestimate the power of pure wounds, Sons of Behamat do so well because there are a lot of factions at the moment that actually don't have the damage output to kill them fast enough to stop them winning on objectives.

[Orkmann]

Malakree makes some great points here. You take the block of 30 savages if you want a big anvil in your army. While they have become very expensive, but that is somewhat compensated by the potential rallies and the base save increase to 5+. On the other hand, the wardokk cannot cast anymore if he attempts the dance so you need another wizard to cast mystic shield to really lean into their tankiness. Also, they damage output has dropped a lot in BW as they have lost one attack and the +1 to wound on the charge is less valuable than in BSP.

It is to be seen on the field, but at this point I don't think they worth their cost. It depends on whether you want to bring a wurrgog for the BSP wizard slot, but if you look at the whole package it's 80+495=575 points and for 25 more you can now take 4×3 piggies, which is 60 wounds on a 4+ base. Granted, you wont have the big anvil, but the gruntas are fast multipurpose units, and they really work well with the new waaagh point generation (in aos2 you wanted a lot of bodies, now you need a lot of units). 

[Malakree]

6 hours ago, Orkmann said:

 80+495=575 points and for 25 more you can now take 4×3 piggies

Worth noting that they aren't battleline anymore.

Also worth pointing out that the hit/wound are melee only(pretty sure this is still the case?) so if you're bringing a heavy ranged/magic component it's less important to reach the high waaagh point numbers. You're pretty much after the +1 cast/unbind/dispel.

As @Orkmann pointed out,it's do you want a massive anvil because that's what they do. As a side note moarboyz are actually 10 points cheaper and get the +1 attack on charge. They lose the battleline keyword and are only a 6+save so they do fill a different role.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Malakree

[OrcaLullaby]

I also still wondering how to make them work for both big whaagh and bonesplitterz. I think that the only situation that might have a place both as a battline filler and an anvil unit is in a pure bonesplitterz list that is not using any warclan. But if you go pure bonesplitterz there are no other reasons besides fluff wise to not pick a warclan.

 

On 9/22/2021 at 3:59 PM, Malakree said:

For the final point there are 3 units which fill that particular unit type slot, Gutripperz, Savage Orruks and Ardboys. Ardboys are somewhere in between the two in terms of damage and survivability but they are really let down by the fact you buy them in units of 5. That means to get the 10 for 170 points you're actually spending a reinforcement slot which might be better spent elsewhere, this might push you over the 5 unit limit for your 1drop battle regiment for example. Not least you cannot actually run a block of 30 ardboys, they come at most in 15s which means you're only putting half of the wounds on the point relatively.

I think that the problem with savage orruks and Big Whaagh are the internal balance and the biggest one are the Ardboys. This is my rationale:
I might be wrong but I think you don't need to use a reinforcement point. Just bring 2 units of 5. Better board control than 10 savage orruks and fills 2 battleline slots. Also, ardboys are arguably more thank efficient than savage orruks. They have also a ++6 ward save, to get a 4+ save they don't need to risk getting a 3+ dance from a squishy snipable hero that takes a hero slot and also they have the option to bring back slain models with a +4 instead of a +6 when issuing a rally command from a nearby warchanter.

I think that the only advantage that savage orukks has over ardboys is that the spears are 2" long and that when charging they have +1 to wound when charging. But it kinda gets compensated with the extra attack and a +3 to wound that ardboyz packs in their warscroll.

In conclusion in my opinion the ardboys are choppier, thankier, more reliable, has better control and list building potential than the savage orruks. All for an extra 5 points. An this is without considering what is need to make the savage orruks work. Because if we have to add a wardokk in the equation then is 245 for the savage orruks + wardokk vs the 170 points for 2 units of 5 ardboyz.

I think the savage orruks needs a drastic decrease in points to make them work. And it will be good as is kinda fluffy and cool. We love the endless hordes of naked orruks choppin gitz with stone axes and stickin big'uns with bony spears.

Edited September 25, 2021 by OrcaLullaby

[Tomplex]

Other than the aforementioned caster I can only really think of bringing msu Big Stabbaz to punch over the heads of msu Ard Boyz. I think that would have some play for a cheap investment. 

 

I love the idea of bringing 1 unit of each warclan battleline, but I have no delusions about it being efficient or competitive. Just 30 savage stikkas meeting a glorious and grisly end soaking up a ton of damage. Who knows, maybe they'll take an enemy model or two with them? 

 

 

[Magnus The Blue]

In big Waaagh Savage Orruks really suffer losing their two bit damage bonuses (Spirits and Icebone) so the best units too include are those that don't rely on these abilities:

Wargog Prophet: as mentioned by others, also the Mask is cool and potentially game winning.

Wardoks: 80 points caster than can dance if your opponent is dominating magic. I don't think an army in the game has a cheaper caster, let along one that's still useful when Naggash or Teclis are about.

Big Stabbas: cheap, big damage, 3" range and some chip damage when they die (against monsters this can pack quite a punch).  They are slow now without run and charge but at 40 points a model, such great value. MSU very useful for building up Waaagh points. 

Big Boss: 65 point hero with solid damage output and is basically a free activation. Again very useful for building up Waaagh points. 

Wierdboy Maniac: Fast cheap wizard, Ironjaws would kill for one of these. Handy for keeping up with your Mawcrusha/Goregruntas to keep Mystic Shield up.

Arrow Boys: reasonably cheap, hard to kill objective holder that can through minor shooting to finish off units or draw out All out defence. Even OK in combat now with 2 attacks each (3+/3+ once you've power up Waaagh).

So more than a few reasonable options.

[Zappgrot]

In a big waagh i would take  boarboys or boarboy maniaks a a screen. 5 bases side ways  take up a decend part of the board. And whit 5 wounds and a 6+ ward they don't go down to random shooting so they Can really block stuff  form moveing. 

[dnusha]

On 9/30/2021 at 5:20 PM, Zappgrot said:

In a big waagh i would take  boarboys or boarboy maniaks a a screen. 5 bases side ways  take up a decend part of the board. And whit 5 wounds and a 6+ ward they don't go down to random shooting so they Can really block stuff  form moveing. 

Boarboyz are having three wounds though. (on the other hand they are 5+ now which is nice)

honestly i only belive in Savage Orcs with a wardock and in blobs , with 4+ 6 ward they can actually more or less survive and do their thing (gonna pick a wardocks anyway for wurgogs + cast). 

Wurgog mask is hilariously awesome. Especially with  bonesplitters artefacts (two warlord battalions for picking two artefacts and another lore enhancement is a way to go if you go Wurgogs) Not to mention wurgog still can nuke units from 24'.

New green tusk spell is 18' and only 5+ to cast and it gives 2 rend for BS mount weapons, these are the boars that will go forward for waaagh points.

Gorkamorka Warcry nerfed to 12' - still a very strong spell that forces a unit to fight last

Since BS magic is pretty strong you can pick endless spells. (they can now move in both players hero phases)

 Big Stabbas - nerfed but cheap and still has 3' range. (can attack from behind of 2 lines of 33mm models) Two for only 80 points is great! (3' 3a +3 +3 -2 2) x2     (2+ 2+ in BW)

Savage Boss - 65 points, super cheap hero unit (that can charge and give you waaagh points and force your units to fight first)

-------

Gordrakk while expensive and vulnerable can issue commands to 3 UNITS simultaneously (works on bonesplitters) and is a monster in melee combat. He is also a general.

Weirdnobs Hand of Gork now can move friendly units (not only Ironjaws)

I found out that picking either Gutrippaz or boltboyz means also spending additional 315+ points on Snatchaboss and maybe even more for Swampcalla 105 and/or Belcha Banner dude 95 (for 5+ magic protection) Which is pretty expensive.

Instead why not only pick a few swampcallas for their strong magic to make your own hero phase even stronger .(BW +1 to casting is 12 points into waaagh)

 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by dnusha

[dnusha]

On 9/25/2021 at 4:37 PM, OrcaLullaby said:

in the equation then is 245 for the savage orruks + wardokk vs the 170 points for 2 units of 5 ardboyz.

that right but only 6/10 arboys will fight in comparison to 10 savage orcs thanks to 5+ coherency (unless we are doing something like that which is not often possible)

Spoiler

 

[quote] And it will be good as is kinda fluffy and cool. We love the endless hordes of naked orruks choppin gitz with stone axes and stickin big'uns with bony spears.[/quote]

Yep but in order to actually make BS an AOS army GW would have to rework it to a modern standart.

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by dnusha

[whispersofblood]

16 hours ago, dnusha said:

Wurgog mask is hilariously awesome. Especially with a ward removal from a swampcalla (it's 7+ though) and bonesplitters artefacts (two warlord battalions for picking two artefacts and another lore enhancement is a way to go if you go Wurgogs) Not to mention wurgog still can nuke units from 24'.

This doesnt work. The Wurgog Stare is at the start of here phase, so before spells are cast.

Edited October 3, 2021 by whispersofblood

[dnusha]

4 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

This doesnt work. The Wurgog Stare is at the start of here phase, so before spells are cast.

Thanks for clarification you are absolutely right.

[Zappgrot]

I feel that the Threath allone of a wurgog whit shiny tats is amezing. Nobody is all that happy of walking something into range of a model that can do so manny mortal wounds.  And unlike a spell you can't stop it.   As a zoneing tool it's pretty good. 

[Shirtripper]

2 hours ago, Zappgrot said:

I feel that the Threath allone of a wurgog whit shiny tats is amezing. Nobody is all that happy of walking something into range of a model that can do so manny mortal wounds.  And unlike a spell you can't stop it.   As a zoneing tool it's pretty good. 

Wurrgog creates a zone of death. I've had opponents suicide units into the wurrgog just get it off the table. It completely warps how they play the game.

All for 150 points!

[Smash]

I've played with the wurrgog with great success as well. I gave him ghost mist and felt that it gave me so much protection and utility as he already have 1 good nuke spell and it makes it easier to keep him from getting shot before getting close enough to use the mask. I feel like my hero trio of wurrgog prophet, warchanter and mega boss is so important in my big waagh lists, and keeping them safe from shooting feel so good. 

[broche]

Anything with a 16 mortal wound potential outburst is good.. Exceptionnal spell with do what 5-6 mortal and can be dispelled

[OrcaLullaby]

On 10/3/2021 at 12:45 AM, dnusha said:

that right but only 6/10 arboys will fight in comparison to 10 savage orcs thanks to 5+ coherency (unless we are doing something like that which is not often possible)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

In the beginning, I thought the same thing but then I realised that ardboyz has 3 attacks and the savage orruks 2. So even in this case, it would be 18 attacks from the ardboyz vs 20 of the savage orruks. If we consider that the ardboyz has +3 to wound and the savage orruks stikkas +4 then the ardboyz has more choppiness. At the moment unfortunately I don't see too much room for the naked boyz 

 

Nice graph by the way 😀

Edited October 8, 2021 by OrcaLullaby

[broche]

41 minutes ago, OrcaLullaby said:

In the beginning, I thought the same thing but then I realised that ardboyz has 3 attacks and the savage orruks 2. So even in this case, it would be 18 attacks from the ardboyz vs 20 of the savage orruks. If we consider that the ardboyz has +3 to wound and the savage orruks stikkas +4 then the ardboyz has more choppiness. At the moment unfortunately I don't see too much room for the naked boyz

You're correct, but there's some edge case that you would want Savage orruk and it's model count / renforcement point (it was already mentionned earlier I think). If you take 10 vs 10, there's no real point for savage orruk over ardboys stat wise. But 10 ardboys cost a renforcement point and those can be precious. The other reason is to activate synergy. For exemple, in big waaagh Wurgog is almost autopick, and one could want a wardock as well, so you that mean you get bonesplitter spell. the +1 charge /  +1 to hit spell is certainly potent on a block of savage spearman.

I admit personnaly i'll be more tempted to take Gutrippaz over them most of the time. But it's not like you army woudl become horrible either if you include some savage orruk.

[OrcaLullaby]

Yeah, I guess that's a point. If you want to bring a big unit of ardboyz you will need to use lots of reinforcements.