Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[Dogmantra]

I ran a group of 6 castigators against a Nurgle list fairly recently and they worked pretty well. If the new Nighthaunt book is good and we see an uptick in people playing them, as well as a decent number of people playing Daemons of any sort, then Castigators will start to look more appealing. The double hits on 6s combined with an all out attack or their inherent +1 to hit puts them on practically a 100% hit rate which is nice, or the -2 rend is enough to remove the save from a lot of daemon units.

[CommissarRotke]

I have ~3 castigators too many if anyone is looking for easy reinforcements. They're a great concept and I hope they get their time in the sun... giant crossbows that fire exploding dracoth-breath were meant for table play.

[Trickflo]

Thanks for all the info looks like trying to get my hands on a lord relictor is probably my next step

[Nerdkingdan]

17 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

I have ~3 castigators too many if anyone is looking for easy reinforcements. They're a great concept and I hope they get their time in the sun... giant crossbows that fire exploding dracoth-breath were meant for table play.

I have tried fielding 12, while not as good as raptors, they work quite well for non competitive.     When wanting to give your friends a break from raptors, but you still want to shoot.

[feadair]

5-0 at Warhammer World (58 players):

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
– Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar (Scions of the Storm)
– Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
– Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Knight-Draconis (300)*
– General
– Command Trait: Master of Magic
– Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
– Mount Trait: Thunderous Presence
– Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos (300)*

Battleline
5 x Liberators (115)*
– Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
– 1x Grandweapons
5 x Liberators (115)*
– Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
– 1x Grandweapons
4 x Stormdrake Guard (680)*
– Drakerider’s Lance
– Reinforced x 1

Units
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
– Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 1990 / 2000

[umlaut31]

Interesting to see Bastian in a list, I recently got the model (so epic!) and I really want to use him in an upcoming tournament - what do people think on the below?

I was also thinking of maybe swapping the raptors + aetherwings for evocators on dracolines for more movement outside of the Bastain/Yndrasta + redeemer castle. Would probably use call to aid as the holy command to recycle a unit, but I could move from the 2 drop to a warlord for the thunderbolt volley (although might be a waste on only 3 raptors?).

Just trying to avoid using 6 raptors, prime etc as I took that to a tournament recently and it did okay but I did have a very similar army to lots of other SCE players (well, all of us without dragons at least)

 

 - Army Faction: Stormcast Eternals
     - Army Type: Stormkeep
     - Subfaction: Hammers of Sigmar
     - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
     - Triumph: Bloodthirsty
LEADERS
Lord-Relictor (145)*
     - General
     - Prayers: Translocation
Yndrasta (320)*
Bastian Carthalos (300)**
Knight-Judicator with Gryph-hounds (205)**
     - Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome
     - Spells: Lightning Blast
BATTLELINE
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Liberators (115)*
     - Heavens-wrought Weapon and Sigmarite Shield
5 x Liberators (115)*
     - Heavens-wrought Weapon and Sigmarite Shield
2 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (230)**
OTHER
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (240)**
3 x Aetherwings (65)**
CORE BATTALIONS
 -  *Battle Regiment
 -  **Battle Regiment
TOTAL POINTS: 1995/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

Edited March 24, 2022 by umlaut31

[lare2]

Can I put Steadfast March and At the Double on the same unit? In other words, are Holy Commands Command Abilities? 

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, lare2 said:

Can I put Steadfast March and At the Double on the same unit? In other words, are Holy Commands Command Abilities? 

No you can't and yes, it's clearly stated in the Battletome under Holy Commands: "a holy command is a command ability that is a unique enhancement"

[lare2]

14 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

No you can't and yes, it's clearly stated in the Battletome under Holy Commands: "a holy command is a command ability that is a unique enhancement"

Outstanding. Much appreciated. 

[Dogmantra]

Yeah, that's the real painful part of steadfast march for me. Would love to run it with Annihilators or really any slower foot troop but the risk of rolling a 1 or 2 is too real to make it worth it.

[Marcvs]

3 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

Yeah, that's the real painful part of steadfast march for me. Would love to run it with Annihilators or really any slower foot troop but the risk of rolling a 1 or 2 is too real to make it worth it.

it's also the damocles sword hanging over our collective head for the moment they nerf thunderbolt volley into the ground 😅 ⏳

[lare2]

12 hours ago, Marcvs said:

it's also the damocles sword hanging over our collective head for the moment they nerf thunderbolt volley into the ground 😅 ⏳

I played against bow snakes for the first time recently. How anyone can complain about Thunderbolt volley with them basically being able to do it every turn, I do know.

They had my life.  

Edited March 25, 2022 by lare2

[The World Tree]

2 hours ago, lare2 said:

I played against bow snakes for the first time recently. How anyone can complain about Thunderbolt volley with them basically being able to do it every turn, I do know.

They had my life.  

Well, DoK are getting a new book...

[Geoffreyvt]

On 3/24/2022 at 1:26 PM, umlaut31 said:

Interesting to see Bastian in a list, I recently got the model (so epic!) and I really want to use him in an upcoming tournament - what do people think on the below?

I was also thinking of maybe swapping the raptors + aetherwings for evocators on dracolines for more movement outside of the Bastain/Yndrasta + redeemer castle. Would probably use call to aid as the holy command to recycle a unit, but I could move from the 2 drop to a warlord for the thunderbolt volley (although might be a waste on only 3 raptors?).

Just trying to avoid using 6 raptors, prime etc as I took that to a tournament recently and it did okay but I did have a very similar army to lots of other SCE players (well, all of us without dragons at least)

 

 - Army Faction: Stormcast Eternals
     - Army Type: Stormkeep
     - Subfaction: Hammers of Sigmar
     - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
     - Triumph: Bloodthirsty
LEADERS
Lord-Relictor (145)*
     - General
     - Prayers: Translocation
Yndrasta (320)*
Bastian Carthalos (300)**
Knight-Judicator with Gryph-hounds (205)**
     - Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome
     - Spells: Lightning Blast
BATTLELINE
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Liberators (115)*
     - Heavens-wrought Weapon and Sigmarite Shield
5 x Liberators (115)*
     - Heavens-wrought Weapon and Sigmarite Shield
2 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (230)**
OTHER
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (240)**
3 x Aetherwings (65)**
CORE BATTALIONS
 -  *Battle Regiment
 -  **Battle Regiment
TOTAL POINTS: 1995/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

I would go for the evocators on dracoline, they hit rather good and fast,  plus they bring you an extra dispell. They can even buff your redeemers with empower, if they will not be able to get into combat themselves. Also, they are just cool looking models. 

I would also suggest combining the vindictors into 1 group of 10, to give a bit more punch. Empower will then be a viable option for these guys, if your evocators can´t make it into combat that turn. 

Let us know how it went!

[feadair]

And now for something completely different - this list went 4-1 and came second in a Polish GT (43 players):

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar (Scions of the Storm)
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
- Triumphs: Inspired
- Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

Leaders
Knight-Heraldor (105)*
Knight-Heraldor (105)*
Knight-Heraldor (105)*
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Chain Lightning

Battleline
10 x Judicators with Boltstorm Crossbows (380)*
- Reinforced x 1
2xThunderbolt crossbow 
5 x Judicators with Boltstorm Crossbows (190)*
1xThunderbolt crossbow 
5 x Judicators with Boltstorm Crossbows (190)*
1xThunderbolt crossbow 

Units
1 x Stormstrike Chariot (165)**
Dzida
1 x Stormstrike Chariot (165)**
Dzida
1 x Stormstrike Chariot (165)**
Dzida
1 x Stormstrike Chariot (165)**
Dzida
1 x Stormstrike Chariot (165)**
Dzida
3 x The Farstriders (90)**

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Redemption Brotherhood

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 1990 / 2000

Edited March 27, 2022 by feadair

[feadair]

And this list went 4-1 and came second in the UK (26 players):

Army Type: Stormkeep
- Subfaction: Hammers of Sigmar
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line -  Triumph: Inspired

LEADERS
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (195) - Spells: Celestial Blades
Knight-Draconis (300)* - General - Command Traits: Heroic Stature - Artefacts of Power: Mirrorshield
Lord-Relictor (145)* - Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome - Spells: Lightning Blast - Prayers: Translocation
Bastian Carthalos (300)*

BATTLELINE
2 x Stormdrake Guard (340)** - Drakerider’s Warblade
2 x Stormdrake Guard (340)** - Drakerider’s Warblade
5 x Vindictors (130)***
5 x Vindictors (130)***

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
1 x Everblaze Comet (100)

CORE BATTALIONS -  *Command Entourage -  **Hunters of the Heartlands -  ***Hunters of the Heartlands

TOTAL POINTS: 1980/2000

[feadair]

And we return to our regularly scheduled programming with yet another list that went 4-1 and came second in the UK (22 players):

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar (Scions of the Storm)
- Grand Strategy: Beast Master
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders

Knight-Draconis (300)*
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
- Spell: Thundershock

Lord-Relictor (145)*
- Prayer: Translocation

Battleline

2 x Stormdrake Guard (340)*
- Drakerider's Lance

2 x Stormdrake Guard (340)*
- Drakerider's Lance

2 x Stormdrake Guard (340)*
- Drakerider's Lance

Units
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 1945 / 2000

[Dogmantra]

Love seeing that Heraldor/Chariot spam. What a wild army! I do love the chariot, and I can imagine that 60 wounds on 3+ is pretty tough to shift. And since so much of the chariot's damage comes from its impact hits you don't care too much about having so many separate units. Would like to see how something like that plays out on the table.

[NauticalSoup]

Heraldor spam seems like a nightmare to play into if the table has a lot of big terrain pieces.

[Elephant_fresh]

hey I haven't read this thread in a while. Can the Sacrosanct units do any work from a competitive sense or are they still dead in the water?

[Skreech Verminking]

10 hours ago, feadair said:

And we return to our regularly scheduled programming with yet another list that went 4-1 and came second in the UK (22 players):

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar (Scions of the Storm)
- Grand Strategy: Beast Master
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders

Knight-Draconis (300)*
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
- Spell: Thundershock

Lord-Relictor (145)*
- Prayer: Translocation

Battleline

2 x Stormdrake Guard (340)*
- Drakerider's Lance

2 x Stormdrake Guard (340)*
- Drakerider's Lance

2 x Stormdrake Guard (340)*
- Drakerider's Lance

Units
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 1945 / 2000

This list really shows how much the balance sheet update gw made helps balancing the game.

it did absolutely nothing from the looks of it, just as I thought😂

well at the least the memes will be funny till gw gets it fixed

[feadair]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

This list really shows how much the balance sheet update gw made helps balancing the game.

it did absolutely nothing from the looks of it, just as I thought😂

well at the least the memes will be funny till gw gets it fixed

Based on the SCEs in the three GTs above, I would say the opposite. The best SCE units were viable, but did not dominate. That is balance. Having said this, we need much more data before we can say anything with any certainty.

[NauticalSoup]

3 hours ago, Elephant_fresh said:

hey I haven't read this thread in a while. Can the Sacrosanct units do any work from a competitive sense or are they still dead in the water?

Doesn't seem like it. Pretty much everything is too expensive for what it does except for a couple characters. It's probably fine for casual play.

[readercolin]

11 hours ago, Elephant_fresh said:

hey I haven't read this thread in a while. Can the Sacrosanct units do any work from a competitive sense or are they still dead in the water?

Sacrosanct units that are playable:

Knight-Incantor.  Auto-unbinds are still good, and its the cheapest wizard.

Lord-Arcanum on Taurelion.  The +1 to hit bubble is really good, and helps this guy see use in a number of lists.  He is also a fast flier that can keep up with your fast moving units to buff them with mystic shield/celestial blades.

After that, nothing else is generally competitively playable.  To state exactly what I'm talking about, we have the following:

Lord-Arcanum (on foot) remains overcosted, and has no real benefit to run over the Knight-Incantor.  His warscroll spell is indeed better, but generally not impactful enough to be worth spending 155 points on, especially when the book is generally so points starved.  His extra movement for predatory spells could be useful, but again, stormcast are usually so points starved that you aren't bringing endless spells for him to move around (they are also all overcosted as well).

The Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline has a pretty terrible spell, and also doesn't do enough damage to be worth bringing as a hero beatstick.  This means that the only reason to bring it is for the Pack Alpha ability for extra attacks for dracoline units, but those aren't playable at the moment either so this guy isn't going to see play.

The Lord-Arcanum on Gryph Charger is a bit more interesting as a highly mobile piece that has a heal spell.  However, once again, it doesn't do enough to bring it as a beatstick hero, and stormcast are usually so starved for points that you aren't going to have room to bring this guy.  That being said, he is probably the closest to making it into some lists for the heal and mobility.

Next up, the non-hero's.

Sequitors are overcosted.  Tankywise, them having a 4+ save vs the 3+ of liberators and vindictors leaves them a bit underwhelming, and they don't do enough damage to replace dedicated hammer units.  Additionally, even if you reinforce them and shove the hammers up front, they do less damage than a reinforced unit of vindictors because they can't get in with all their weapons.  I'm not sure that they would be playable even if they only cost 115 like liberators due to that, but they definitely aren't worth 30 points more than liberators.

Castigators are... ok.  Point for point, they are one of the most efficient shooting units in the entire roster.  Especially because Evocators can give them +1 to wound, and they can choose their +1 to hit "stance" to be d3 shots on 2+/2+.  However, a reinforced unit is only 210 points, and between their shorter range and their smaller size, they don't really compete well with longstrikes and judicators, and they don't make great use of thunderbolt volley because their largest size is 6.  If you wanted to go heavy on them, you could, but then you would struggle to fit into a battle regiment.  Basically, they are just a bit too awkward to use compared to the alternatives.

Evocators suffer the same problems as other paladin units - delivery.  If you can get them into combat, they can be devastating.  But now that their grandstaves don't have 2" reach, they don't reinforce well.  Their 4+ save also doesn't help them in walking up the board or taking a counter-punch vs other paladins.  Their poorer rend values also aren't doing them any favors.  But most of it comes down to delivery.

Evocators on Dracolines are actually pretty good numbers wise, with an un-reinforced unit actually competing with Fulminators in the damage department (especially with a Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline nearby).  However, Fulminators trivially reinforce to 4, but Evokitties reinforce to 6, and run into coherency issues.  Combine that with their 4+ save, and that they cost 50 points more than fulminators do and they aren't going to see play until either see a points drop or the coherency rule gets modified to 6 or less instead of 5 or less.

Finally, Celestar Ballista's.  Ballistas have a number of problems, with swingy damage, inability to all out attack as a group, inability to unleash hell as a group, and just generally overcosted for what they do.  Basically, anything they do longstrikes do better.

Overall, what this all boils down to is that most of the sacrosanct stuff is overcosted by a bit, or there are just better options to do what they want to do in stormcast.  If they were pulled out of the book and put into their own book, it would probably make a decent middle of the road army that can go 3-2 with an occasional 4-1.  However, they are in stormcast, and as such the question becomes why run them when you can run something else instead.

[CommissarRotke]

12 hours ago, Elephant_fresh said:

hey I haven't read this thread in a while. Can the Sacrosanct units do any work from a competitive sense or are they still dead in the water?

ironically Castigators are in the best spot for Sacrosanct with their warscroll change. Outside of them, like Nautical said the issue is largely down to points costs.