AoS 3.0 - Ogor Mawtribes Discussion

[spenson]

2 hours ago, Frowny said:

Gluttons seem back on the menu. While they went up slightly, +rend,2 inch reach, the better charge, and +1 attack makes them way killier. For a 8% price increase or so, they gain +40% killiness or so, and the banners are way better too. 

I still think most lists will have a single stonehorn. The -1 wound trait is great and you want something to carry your throat/artifact etc.

Something like

Kragnos

Frostlord in stonehorns

3*6 gluttons

Might be interesting. I think that fits barely.

I'm thinking about something a bit similar:

Kragnos

2 x Frostlord on Stonehorn

Icebrow Hunter

3 x 2 Frost Sabres

This is not a serious list until I actually test it. The issue this kind of list usually have is that they can be stopped by overlapping a few cheap screens. Now they can do some really deadly stuff.

[Skreech Verminking]

3 hours ago, Frowny said:

Gluttons seem back on the menu. While they went up slightly, +rend,2 inch reach, the better charge, and +1 attack makes them way killier. For a 8% price increase or so, they gain +40% killiness or so, and the banners are way better too. 

I still think most lists will have a single stonehorn. The -1 wound trait is great and you want something to carry your throat/artifact etc.

Something like

Kragnos

Frostlord in stonehorns

3*6 gluttons

Might be interesting. I think that fits barely.

I think they aren’t quite yet back at the menu.

although they may in the next ghb edition.

they are currently just suffering to much from the bounty hunter battailon.

 

1 hour ago, spenson said:

I'm thinking about something a bit similar:

Kragnos

2 x Frostlord on Stonehorn

Icebrow Hunter

3 x 2 Frost Sabres

This is not a serious list until I actually test it. The issue this kind of list usually have is that they can be stopped by overlapping a few cheap screens. Now they can do some really deadly stuff.

Nice 

I’m personally going all out on balck powder weapons with some combat ogors

[Warbossironteef]

6 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

This exactly. In the past they theoretically at least outdamaged stonehorn beastriders a bit potentially in a unit off 4 for the same price. Now the Beastriders are 310 and 4 of these are 350 and still have the worse charge and count for less models on objectives. I really love the idea of their new anti shooting ability but I am afraid of their actual use. I guess they consistently run and charge now at least and are now the more damaging and survivable but also more expensive battleline option for the beasclaws. They still synergise better with the Bloodfeast spell than our other units in the book because of their mounts gaining the bonus attack too.

And yes for just charging for mortal wounds theoretically leadbelchers are the way to go because they are our cheapest 3+ model unit but their melee just is not comparable to the other units. If some madman wants to play 10×4 leadbelchers with 2 Tyrants who both have the Big Name to count as a Monster for the charge damage in Meatfist I want pictures of those 42 bellies just charging things.

I think Mournfang are great in their role. They aren't like the nurgle flies or gotgruntas that can carry a whole army but they are a great linebreaker unit with resiliency against shooting and unleash hell.

They also are good at taking buffs but also fairly self reliant. IMO with cannons and our MSU Ogors being a bit better you can make a good combined arms list that didn't function before. 

MFC unit of 4 are great running mates with a FLOSH. They charge first, you then charge with FLOSH and Monsterous Rampage onto a backline unit. Between mortals from both charges peppering the unit in front MFC can take down remaining models. I think it's a nice combo and protects FLOSH from gun lines. 

I'm going to try Underguts first. I don't want run 4 Ironblasters. I do think Ill also  move off Underguts overtime, go down to 2 Ironblasters and bring more Gluttons or min units of Ironguts. 

FLOSH

Tryant

3x 4 Leadbelchers 

4xMFC

3x Ironblasters 

[Frowny]

How much are 2 mournfangs now? They seem to have a lot more play.

Leadbelchers also seem much improved with the better range charge and shots. They can still contribute while holding an objective with their guns.

[Duke of Mousillon]

5 hours ago, Frowny said:

How much are 2 mournfangs now?

175 for the two. 

[Duke of Mousillon]

I think about letting a Bloodpelt hunter lead my Underguts because he can take gruesome trophy rack gets his +2 to hit command trait and be basically unsnipable when he sits in cover close to my artillery or gunline? 

He would still be lackluster in range because he would mainly support 30" range units when himself being 18" at best but I guess his ranged is still better then a Tyrant sitting back there doing nothing? Not sure though. I am not sold on the new Hunter being useful. 

[Warbossironteef]

1 hour ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

I think about letting a Bloodpelt hunter lead my Underguts because he can take gruesome trophy rack gets his +2 to hit command trait and be basically unsnipable when he sits in cover close to my artillery or gunline? 

He would still be lackluster in range because he would mainly support 30" range units when himself being 18" at best but I guess his ranged is still better then a Tyrant sitting back there doing nothing? Not sure though. I am not sold on the new Hunter being useful. 

I don't think he needs to do nothing. He moves almost as fast a Ironblasters and Ironblasters want to position themselves to do the hailshots. He's tanky enough, especially with double big-names to be pretty agreesive. I agree about new Hunter. Waste of a new model and pretty useless IMO. 

[Duke of Mousillon]

Sure he can run around and is fairly tanky but he does not do much on range. The Hunter would be better shooting and might be similarly tanky if you can keep him somehow in cover to not be targetable. But we agree the hunter is dissapointing. 

More interesting. We always just had to think off the Tyrant for trophy rack because we had our artifacts split between tyrants and butchers. The new trophy rack is not limited to tyrants. Its Gutbuster. We could have a butcher standing back there with the buff aura of trophy rack. Obviously not a Firebelly because GW hates the firebelly but we can have slaughtermaster or butcher carry the trophy rack. Still no shooting hero but some spells would work from back there maybe.

Edit: Even just having the Butcher caster in-between the Ironblasters for the Blubbergrub Stench for when is Rinox-Go-Time seems reasonable.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Duke of Mousillon

[Lucentia]

It's a shame, cos a Firebelly with Billowing Ash would've been perfect as an ironblaster babysitter, but no trophy rack, as you say.  Butcher probably feels like the best play, they can add a little bit of ranged damage with the maw, and blubbergrub when necessary.  I don't hate the idea of a bloodpelt sitting back there, but with his best gun at a 12" range it's going to depend on how the terrain is set up, and base 4+ to hit on a ranged hero is a bit of a joke, so you'd have to burn your general + command trait on him, but maybe that's not the worst thing.  I'd probably give it a shot for a game or two, good for a laugh if nothing else.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Lucentia

[Frowny]

I gotta say I'm a little annoyed comparing ogres to the new slaves to darkness. For comparison, mournfangs cost basically the same per model as varanguard and with near identicle output and speed on their base profile. Varanguard gain 3+ save, 4+ mw save, fight twice, marks, eye of the gods-except the eye of the gods, these are all consistent and strong base stat boosts that help in nearly all situations. In comparison, the mournfangs gain very situational abilities- the erratic everwinter mortals and the weak ogre charge for a few incidental MW, turning off unleash hell and -1 to wound vs. shooting.

Those things are all fine but but why not just have a better save? -1 to wound vs shooting is fine but you could just be -1 to wound all the time with Nurgle. Varanguard are as brave as mournfangs while eating and as fast as them while not eating.

There are also far more buffs to stack on the varanguard than the mournfang. Oh well. Beggars can't be choosers i guess and I'm glad finally chaos warriors are to be feared again

[Boar]

2 hours ago, Frowny said:

Those things are all fine but but why not just have a better save? -1 to wound vs shooting is fine but you could just be -1 to wound all the time with Nurgle. Varanguard are as brave as mournfangs while eating and as fast as them while not eating.

First, Nurgle mark is in melee only. So you could say it's similar, and MF just hav this they don't have to sacrifice as opportunity cost either Khorne or Slaneesh mark buffs.

Second Mournfang offensive output is not dependant so much on them charging (Fellspear VG), and is actually better per point when not charging than any VG. Mournfang with +1 Mv and possibility for +1 to charge in 4 storng unit also have better base mobility. Their effective wounds per point are also not that much in favor of VG.

Don't get me wrong, both as discrete units and per point VG are to some degree better deal, but I don't see their differences as that prononced. Not too mention that their roles are somewhat different.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Boar

[Lord Krungharr]

See, Varanguard worship Chaos, so they get stuff.  Also they're $100 for 3 models, so they get stuff.

But I'd still rather make a whole Mournfang army with Thunderbellies than stinkin' Varanguard, and I have a Slaves to Darkness army.

[Ganigumo]

4 mournfang do outdamage SHBR now

It gets a bit closer when you factor in the better mortals and shooting attacks, plus the stonehorn is better on objectives and costs 40 points less.

Personally I rank the linebreakers ability pretty low, theres only a small set of armies that can take advantage of unleash hell, and a lot of the units in question get mortals on 6s or something similar anyways.
The math points to them being interesting but I'm not sure they'll find their footing. They're very weak to battleshock and maneuvering 4 of them might be harder than maneuvering a stonehorn.

[Boar]

21 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

lot of the units in question get mortals on 6s or something similar anyways.

MW on 6s are not magic, they are only on 6s, Sentinels on 5s is different story but f.ex 10 Bow Snakes will struggle to kill even one Mournfang now with Unleash Hell.

[Frowny]

26 minutes ago, Boar said:

Bow Snakes will struggle to kill even one Mournfang now with Unleash Hell

15 bow snakes will kill about 1 mournfang in unleash hell. That doesn't sound terrible but then remember it's in your turn while being charged by a dedicated anti-unleash hell unit, and you are still taking real damage. 

[Boar]

2 hours ago, Frowny said:

15 bow snakes will kill about 1 mournfang in unleash hell. That doesn't sound terrible but then remember it's in your turn while being charged by a dedicated anti-unleash hell unit, and you are still taking real damage. 

It's 60% for killing one, still 40% for no personel loss charging one of the best ranged unit in game. And just 1,5% for loss of 2. So you can even use 2 man units to trigger Unleash Hell, screening and other duties and they still have decent dmg

[Duke of Mousillon]

14 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

4 mournfang do outdamage SHBR now

They always did. As I said before. 4 mounrfangs with gargant hackers always outdamaged a stonehorn. Even when both units charged 4 mournfangs with gargant hackers did more damage. 

The difference is in the past 4 mournfanga were the price of 1 Stonehorn. Now they are actually more expensive then 1 stonehorn beastrider with the new points.

Edit: even culling clubs on 4 charging mournfangs outdamaged most charging stonehorn beastriders if I remember correct. I think only a 2+ safe made culling club mournfangs worse then a charging stonehorn.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Duke of Mousillon

[Lucentia]

Though, obviously, the Stornhorn has the advantage of much smaller unit footprint, it's going to generally be much easier to make all of a Stonehorn's attacks against a single target, where 4 Mournfang might get blocked from going exactly where you need by terrain/other units/each other.  I still don't really rate the non-hero Stonehorns though, I'd rather mix in some Mournfang for a BCR heavy list, even if just so the entire thing isn't made of identical models.

[Duke of Mousillon]

Your thoughts on a single gorger? I really don't see gorgers doing much but maybe I am wrong. 

[Boar]

12 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

Your thoughts on a single gorger? I really don't see gorgers doing much but maybe I am wrong. 

It's more of a tech/utility piece. You keep him in reserve to help with battle tactcs. Alternatively sometimes he can be useful in combat for his ability.

[Magnus The Blue]

Tried out the new book last night with a 4 Ironblaster underguts list against a competitive Thunderlizards lis.. The Orgors just brutalised the lizards.  Underguts Ironblasters plus Trophy-rack is just devastating.  Effective range 39" with 8 3+/2+ R:-3 D:3+d3 shots just took the monsters apart, supported by a Stonehorn and 12 Ledbelchers the game was basically over turn one.  Combined with a Thundertusks being basically unscreenable now means I can see LOTS of event wins for shooty Ogors. 

Had a chat afterwards with some top players and we couldn't think of any reliable counters to to them.  They aren't unbeatable but I feel like they could be sitting on a Tier of there own.

[Duke of Mousillon]

I myself think about piloting smth like

-Butcher

-Firebelly

-Frostlord on Stonehorn

4× -Ironblaster 

3x - 4 Leadbelcher 

- Gorger

Theoretically the Gorger is just left over points. Could I play Gnoblar instead? Yes. Will I ever desire playing Goblins in an Oger army? No. 

Could also change one leadbelcher to a Gluttons instead of adding the Gorger.

[Ganigumo]

Ironblasters force your drops up, but it may not be a problem since their threat range means the opponent might take t1 just to prepare for them.

The "counter" to them is the same as counters to good shooting, so using terrain to hide support pieces, picking up anti-shooting tech in the book, and using actual LoS blocking terrain (ghost mist can help).

IDK and Kruleboyz have some of the best protection, but KB probably fold to any melee threats you have. Maybe IDK are a good matchup? I don't know the army that well.

[Schauer]

7 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Ironblasters force your drops up, but it may not be a problem since their threat range means the opponent might take t1 just to prepare for them.

The "counter" to them is the same as counters to good shooting, so using terrain to hide support pieces, picking up anti-shooting tech in the book, and using actual LoS blocking terrain (ghost mist can help).

IDK and Kruleboyz have some of the best protection, but KB probably fold to any melee threats you have. Maybe IDK are a good matchup? I don't know the army that well.

IDK a very good counter in the sense of forcing you to shoot their chaff before their support pieces, although this is likely something more armies are going to get when they hop to the net season of GHB.

 

They also tend to be able to clear the board quickly via eels, but this may be to their detriment sometimes because the hailshot in underguts is much more deadly than the cannonball profile. Side Note: For ogor players considering underguts I think its important to get these guys to midboard as soon as you can to take advantage of this! Herosniping with cannonballs is fun but the hailshot is the moneymaker on this warscroll in terms of raw output

 

Quality deepstrike and castlebreaker spells/abilities is probably the best way to counter outside of the points you mentioned.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Schauer

[Frowny]

One thing I wonder about for the shooty list is if you are still better off in one of the other tribes rather than the shooty one? The guns are fine as is on the warscroll and +1 on the charge mortals is sweet, and hitting someone with 8d6 mortals on 3+ with the spell if they get close is brutal. Should average to like... 18 or so? It also helps the stonehorn you are probably running.