AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Ranzou]

Oh my, geminids for 40pts is real bargain. Denying commands is huge.

[punkycloud]

With Bounty Hunters battalion probably being everywhere think the value in msu bladegheists in Scarlet Doom has dropped?

Bladegheists in hunters seems a win, but in an emerald host sub-faction where they won't suffer +1 damage against them. 

[The_Dudemeister]

3 hours ago, Ranzou said:

Oh my, geminids for 40pts is real bargain. Denying commands is huge.

Go all out with it.

Lady O, Kurdoss, Tomb Banshee and Geminids 😂

[Liquidsteel]

5 hours ago, punkycloud said:

With Bounty Hunters battalion probably being everywhere think the value in msu bladegheists in Scarlet Doom has dropped?

Bladegheists in hunters seems a win, but in an emerald host sub-faction where they won't suffer +1 damage against them. 

Possibly yes. Though losing the charge mortals is quite big. 

I initially plan to still run 2 x 20 in SD.

Having access to the Kruciator does help mitigate the glow up damage 1 units are having.

[EnixLHQ]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/22/a-big-balance-update-hits-the-mortal-realms-as-war-comes-to-gallet/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=warhammer-age-of-sigmar&utm_content=balanceupdate

Just tweeted out.

[Boggler]

Processions with GHB2022 - Pros and Cons

Emerald Host

Pros: BGR/DSH can go into Bounty Hunters and not be victims.

Cons: BGR/DSH don't fight in two ranks because they are not Galletian Veterans.

Quicksilver Dead

Pros: DSH become Galletian Veterans and fight in two ranks.

Cons: DSH become victims of Bounty Hunters.

Scarlet Doom

Pros: BGR become Galletian Veterans and fight in two ranks.

Cons: BGR become victims of Bounty Hunters.

Solutions? 

Krulghast Cruciator can reduce the incoming damage by 1. This will be key if your Battleline are going against Bounty Hunters or other multi damage attacks.

Play it safe with Emerald Host. Lose the extra damage/attacks from Galletian Veterans on your BGR/DSH.

Go all in with either Quicksilver or Scarlet and not worry about the possible Bounty Hunters.

Screen with Glaivewraith Stalkers?

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, Boggler said:

Cons

The con of being galletian is HUGE. Not only is it vulnerable to bounty hunter but you now open up these units to being targets for giving up VP from battle tactics in the hand book.

Taking advantage of galletian is going to be trickey and require investment and specific units. 

You want durable units that you can make huge and difficult to kill.  While you will also very likely will want to make them double thier objective controling power. So, they can be sure to get you any points back for them dying. 

[dmorley21]

14 hours ago, Boggler said:

Processions with GHB2022 - Pros and Cons

Emerald Host

Pros: BGR/DSH can go into Bounty Hunters and not be victims.

Cons: BGR/DSH don't fight in two ranks because they are not Galletian Veterans.

Quicksilver Dead

Pros: DSH become Galletian Veterans and fight in two ranks.

Cons: DSH become victims of Bounty Hunters.

Scarlet Doom

Pros: BGR become Galletian Veterans and fight in two ranks.

Cons: BGR become victims of Bounty Hunters.

Solutions? 

Krulghast Cruciator can reduce the incoming damage by 1. This will be key if your Battleline are going against Bounty Hunters or other multi damage attacks.

Play it safe with Emerald Host. Lose the extra damage/attacks from Galletian Veterans on your BGR/DSH.

Go all in with either Quicksilver or Scarlet and not worry about the possible Bounty Hunters.

Screen with Glaivewraith Stalkers?

My thoughts:

Grieving Legion - Stock Down

You're going to use GV units to activate the subfaction ability to try to pin units. Unfortunately, bounty hunters will now blow up your pinning units unless you make a major investment. And even then, they'll get blown up more quickly. Still viable as an alpha pinning option - especially for some of the battleplans, but I'd say it's our weakest now. 

Emerald Host - Stock Slightly Up

Opens up more versatility with the ability to keep both Bladegheists and Harridans as non-GV bounty hunters. About the same overall though. 

Scarlet Doom - Stock Up

Bladegheist Revenants are bonkers now. I get that they can be bounty hunted, but honestly we've got ways to mitigate that. 

Quicksilver Dead - Stock Way Up

Nurgle is the top tier army atm IMO, and this army hard counters them. It also is pretty good against DoK, LRL, Skaven, Hammers of Sigmar Stormcast, Hallowed Knights Stormcast, other Nighthaunt, Fyreslayers, and Monster Trucks Beastclaw Raiders. Plus all the random heroes that get ward saves or Death armies. And I probably forgot something.

Anyway, now your Harridans fight in two ranks, just pouring out attacks. So low save armies or armies relying on wards will just melt. And you have access to Purple Sun of Shyish, giving your Harridans another way to get rend. Just ace. 

 

 

As for how to play in the new meta - I think you'll want MSU or blocks of 30 for your troops. Blocks of 20 seem like the perfect bounty hunter target, whereas a block of 30 will be a monumental task for your opponent to lift, even with their best bounty hunter hammers. 

EDIT: Got my first game in yesterday (Olynder / Guardian of Souls (general/auto cast) / Krulgahst (arcane tome) / Spirit Torment / 1x3 Spirit Hosts / 2x10 Chainrasps / 1x5 Hexwraiths / 1x30 Bladegheists/1x4 Myrmourns) playing The Prize of Galletia against OBR (Katakros / 2 wizard heroes / 2 x 20 Mortek / 1 x 6 Stalkers / 1 x 5 Deathriders / Catalpult). 

My opponent conceded at the bottom of 3 as I was up 15-5 at that point and my opponent had his catapult, Katakros, and 5 Mortek left while I hadn't lost a single unit and had minimal losses at that point. Everything put in some work, but the Chainrasps deep stirking for an extra victory point to nap two battle tactics (the new savage spearhead one and then the grab an opponent's terrain) was really clutch. 

Edited June 23, 2022 by dmorley21
Battle Report Added

[Sception]

54 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

My thoughts:

Grieving Legion - Stock Down

Emerald Host - Stock Slightly Up

Scarlet Doom - Stock Up

Quicksilver Dead - Stock Way Up

Sounds about right, though I feel host is neither up nor down, and the main problem for grieving is that the 30 model chainrasp or grimghast units they like to take are hard to fit in cruciator bubbles.  There are still games that will be won by no retreat tho.  It's just that kind of ability.

Not convinced by squads of 30 GVs in general, especially of the 32mm base stuff, due to aforementioned difficulty fitting in cruciator bubbles.  I mean, yeah, it's a big bubble, but 30x 32mm bases is so much table.

Speaking of cruciator bubbles, these are vital this season.  Maybe even 2+ mandatory?  Not running them at all is right out, certainly.  If you don't have one yet, now's the time to buy.

....

Thought on hexwraiths?

I very much like a unit or two of hexwraiths in anything.  Fast as heck, mortals on the charge, don't give up extra damage to vets, 24+d6" sacraficial first turn move to box in enemy vets or hunters, whichever are more troublesome for you in a particular game, unless they can teleport or fly.

Maybe I'm overestimating the value of that due to coming from obr, who are so slow that losing your first turn of movement is practically game right there, but still.

Make them hunters, maybe have Reikenor toss a purple sun downfield, and they even have some halfway respectable output against enemy gelato vets.  Grimghasts, crimson bladegheists, & quicksilver dreadscythes all do far more damage as hunters, but they're also vulnerable to enemy hunters so they have to play around cruciator bubbles, while hexwraiths are free to range out.

[EnixLHQ]

So I asked Midjorn ey what it thought Lady Olynder would look like pretending to mourn for her lost lovers. Here are a few results.

[dmorley21]

39 minutes ago, Sception said:

Sounds about right, though I feel host is neither up nor down, and the main problem for grieving is that the 30 model chainrasp or grimghast units they like to take are hard to fit in cruciator bubbles.  There are still games that will be won by no retreat tho.  It's just that kind of ability.

Not convinced by squads of 30 GVs in general, especially of the 32mm base stuff, due to aforementioned difficulty fitting in cruciator bubbles.  I mean, yeah, it's a big bubble, but 30x 32mm bases is so much table.

Speaking of cruciator bubbles, these are vital this season.  Maybe even 2+ mandatory?  Not running them at all is right out, certainly.  If you don't have one yet, now's the time to buy.

....

Thought on hexwraiths?

I very much like a unit or two of hexwraiths in anything.  Fast as heck, mortals on the charge, don't give up extra damage to vets, 24+d6" sacraficial first turn move to box in enemy vets or hunters, whichever are more troublesome for you in a particular game, unless they can teleport or fly.

Maybe I'm overestimating the value of that due to coming from obr, who are so slow that losing your first turn of movement is practically game right there, but still.

Make them hunters, maybe have Reikenor toss a purple sun downfield, and they even have some halfway respectable output against enemy gelato vets.  Grimghasts, crimson bladegheists, & quicksilver dreadscythes all do far more damage as hunters, but they're also vulnerable to enemy hunters so they have to play around cruciator bubbles, while hexwraiths are free to range out.

In order:

The thing I forgot to mention about Emerald Host, is that it's the pick if you want to go for a spellcasting bubble most likely. Nagash got buffed (more on that later), Purple Sun exists, and the Terminexus became easier to cast (due to Cogs). I think that's the reason it's a slight bump.

Blobs of 30 are more difficult, but not impossible to fit in the Cruciator/Torment/Guardian bubble. Easy to do when playing defensive or being mindful of your pile ins. I also recommend charging the heroes in to trigger more WoT stuff if you play them offensively.

I think Grieving Legion suffers from more teleports becoming available, from Bounty Hunters, and from the Incarnate existing as an ally that could give the same benefit.

I don't think two Cruciators are necessary with Spirit Hosts existing, but two aren't bad. Just keep in mind they do nothing in the mirror match. Due to that, I always put an artefact on mine.

Hexwraiths. They're great. So versatile. Chaff. Pinning units. Objective grabbers. Additional WoT triggers. I'd only put them in Bounty Hunters if there's extra space in the battalion slots or if you're running a Hexwraith spam list. I'll always bring a unit of them.

[dmorley21]

I don't feel like blog posts get as many hits, so this is going to be a long post to kind of get my thoughts in order about the stock up stuff for Nighthaunt in this season of the GHB. This is based on my limited experience with the new GHB and conversations with others who have experience.

Also - I really don't think any of our units got worse. There's some sidegrades (Reapers now fear bounty hunters and in the right subfaction, Harridans and Bladegheists fight in two ranks; however Reapers are more versatile, and work great in either of the new battalions).

So, this is purely a stock up list.

Stock Up:

Quicksilver Dead/Scarlet Doom/Emerald Host

See previous post

Nagash

Longstrikes and Alpha striking Stormdrake Guard are gone. The leaves Morathi and the Bowsnakes as the only true threat to Nagash IMO. On top of that, Chronomantic Cogs (even if it gets adjusted to just affect one wizard) means you're no longer worried about miscasts. Oh, and opposing units can't ignore his monstrous actions. And there's several juicy generic endless spells. And our cheapest batteline (Chainrasps) got a lot better IMO. Is he worth his points? Probably not, but he's a whole lot better now.

Lady Olynder

Chronomantic Cogs. Two casts that can now be re-rolled? Makes her warscroll spell more likely to get off (before unbinds) than not.

Guardian of Souls

Largely because of Purple Sun of Shyish. Such a great spell addition for Nighthaunt now. The Guardian can get Master of Magic, Cogs, or the artefact that auto-casts it. I doubt I'll run a NH list without Purple Sun.

Cairn Wraith/Lord Executioner/KoSoES

Give any of these Arcane Tome and use Lauchon to get them into something really juicy.

Reikenor

Purple Sun of Shyish. Chronomantic Cogs. Prismatic Pallisade. There's a lot of good endless spells now that you want to cast.

Krulghast

Bounty hunters exists.

Chainrasps

These. Are. So. Good. Now.

You can run them as MSU and deepstrike two units of them to get 3 points for Barge Through the Enemy Lines. And then they'll likely nab you Desecrate their Lands as well.

You can run them in blocks of 30 in a castle. They should be at -1 to wound on a 5+/5+. That will take a monumental effort to lift - even for bounty hunters.

Bring a Purple Sun and plant it next to them and they'll always be at rend -1.

And they're our best buy at 11 points a wound.

Also - they want to be Expert Conquerors to steal objectives or really hold them down. An MSU block of them will count as 30 and be able to snipe objectives. A block of 30 will be 90.

Honestly, they're great. I just traded for 30 of theses so that I now have 40 and am debating getting 20 more.

Bladegheists/Harridans

I lumped these together as they got better in the same way.

They can fight in two ranks in their subfactions. Each has merit. I like SD for the lore, and think QSD is better in the current competitive meta.

They also each make for great bounty hunters or expert conquerors in their subfactions.

Terminexus

Cogs makes it easier to cast.

 

Wait and see:

FAQ will be needed, but right now Awlrach, Fight or Flight and the Black Coach both look solid. Awlrach because currently the one GS that requires you to have a GV unit in all four quadrants - Awlrach could just teleport them there turn 5. Fight or Flight if it means you still get the GS if tabled. The Black Coach is a free battle tactic, when they are a lot more difficult now, as long as army specific battle tactics remain.

 

[Sception]

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

Awlrach because currently the one GS that requires you to have a GV unit in all four quadrants

Isn't that GS objectively worse than the one that only reauires 3 GV units on the table at the end of the game?  One less unit, with no restrictions on where they end up?

I guess the 4 quarters one allows summoned vets while whe three units one requires them to be from your starter army, but while NH have some healing we're not really summoning a lot of units to the table mid game.

[dmorley21]

20 minutes ago, Sception said:

Isn't that GS objectively worse than the one that only reauires 3 GV units on the table at the end of the game?  One less unit, with no restrictions on where they end up?

I guess the 4 quarters one allows summoned vets while whe three units one requires them to be from your starter army, but while NH have some healing we're not really summoning a lot of units to the table mid game.

So right now, RAW, you can have one unit - even one model left from the unit, stand directly in the middle of the battlefield and get the the GS.

If the FAQ changes that so that a unit can only claim one quarter, it’s worse. 

[Boggler]

Great info here people!

Here is the list I'm trying to put together for a 1 day tournament in a couple weeks. I don't have 30 Dreadscythes (only 20) so I'll have to try Quicksilver Dead near the end of the Summer. I agree, QSD stocks are a bit up above Scarlet! 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
- Procession: Scarlet Doom
- Mortal Realm: Chamon
- Grand Strategy: A Soul to Claim, Fight or Flight, or No Place for the Weak
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (340)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist
Kurdoss Valentian, the Craven King (210)
Guardian of Souls (150)*
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Seal of Shyish
Krulghast Cruciator (150)*
- Artefact: Lightshard of the Harvest Moon
Spirit Torment (115)*

Battleline
10 x Chainrasps (110)***
10 x Chainrasps (110)***
5 x Hexwraiths (160)*
3 x Spirit Hosts (125)***
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (175)**
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (175)**
10 x Bladegheist Revenants (175)**

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Bounty Hunters
***Expert Conquerors

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
Drops: 12
 

12 drops means I very likely won't be choosing the Proving Ground. No worries here as I'll have enough GV's to be anywhere I want.

3x10 BGR in Bounty Hunters for extra damage. I could have easily gone with a blob of 30 and I'm not so sure which is the better option. A blob of 30 BGR has crazy output, with Discorporate, the regen of Oly, ST, and the GoS it's unlikely that it dies and while sure its hard to keep in the KGC bubble it does a lot of work. Hell, even pulling dead models 3" away from the enemy to setup a Rally

2x10 Chainrasps for the above mentioned 3 VP Barge Through Enemy Lines. They are in EC as a bit of a distraction but the bonus is really good and some sneaky plays can be made.

Lady O, Kurdoss, ST, GoS, KGC stick together.

Hex are super versatile. 3 SH's is probably the max I'll go now and why not put them in the EC too.

Battle Tactics:

T1 - Against the Odds, Desecrate Their Lands

T2 - Barge Through Enemy Lines/Desecrate Their Lands, Gaining Momentum,

T3 - Gaining Momentum, An Eye for an Eye, Head to Head, Outmuscle,

T4/5 - An Eye for an Eye, Head to Head, Outmuscle,

Difficult but still possible BT's: This One's Mine, Death by a Thousand Cuts

3 BT's easily doable in the first 3 turns, and none of them require much from your opponent. T4/5 will give plenty of options.

We're in a good place.

[Liquidsteel]

Looks solid! Mine looks slightly different; dropped Kurdoss and Hexwraiths in favour of 10 more Bladegheists (2x20), a unit of Banshees, and the Purple Sun (to be autocast with Midnight Tome).

I could easily swap to 30/10 Blades, however I was already pretty pleased with the output of 20 when only 13-14 could actually fight at best, and now they fight in 2 ranks and potentially do 2 damage I think I'll start with 2 x 20 and see how it goes.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
- Procession: Scarlet Doom
- Mortal Realm: Shyish
- Grand Strategy: TBC
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (340)*
- Lore of the Underworlds: Spectral Tether
Krulghast Cruciator (150)*
- General
- Command Trait: Lingering Spirit
Guardian of Souls (150)*
- Artefact: Midnight Tome
- Lore of the Underworlds: Seal of Shyish
Spirit Torment (115)**
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist

Battleline
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (350)***
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (350)***
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Chainrasps (110)****
10 x Chainrasps (110)****
3 x Spirit Hosts (125)**

Units
4 x Myrmourn Banshees (105)**

Endless Spells & Invocations
Purple Sun of Shyish (70)

Core Battalions
*Command Entourage - Magnificent
**Battle Regiment
***Bounty Hunters
****Expert Conquerors

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1975 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 96
Drops: 8
 

I think 8 drops puts you in possible contention to decide turn against the masses; though some lists will definitely be hovering around 5-6 drops I imagine, such as Deepkin or Nurgle Flies.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Liquidsteel

[Boggler]

I haven't dropped Kurdoss yet... The first thing that got cut to make room for the 2x10 Chainrasps was the Spirit Hosts. I also had to find room for a Spirit Torment and a Krulghast.

We have so many tools now its impossible to fit in everything you want. Plus I have no idea what direction my opponents lists will go or which battleplans will become standard.

Its possible that the 2x10 Chainrasps are the only units in Expert Conquerors. If reducing drops needs to be a thing then it'll be easy.

What about the Battle Tactics? What does your T1-5 look like? Grand Strategy?

[Ranzou]

14 hours ago, Boggler said:

Barge Through Enemy Lines/Desecrate Their Lands

Don't you think that hexwraiths are better for that role?

1) 24" +d6 is enough to be everywhere

2) enemy cannot block deepstike with his units being 9" closer to your point of interest

3) they aren't galletian so no +1 damage against

[Boggler]

3 minutes ago, Ranzou said:

Don't you think that hexwraiths are better for that role?

Hexwraiths are amazing. We should always include at least one unit.

We're talking about the bonus point you get for Barge Through Enemy Lines, which Hexwraith don't get.

[MotherGoose]

Okay after some tweaking of lists, reading of rules and playing my first game with the ghosts (tts) they play way differently to sbg and I love it.

They're *so fast* and manoeuvrable with retreat and charge. Olynder had put in work.

The chagr ability they all get is tasty. I've only played one game but already feels like cheap screens and landing your charges is even more important with the ghosts.

Ethereal is still sweet. Was thinking 4+ ethereal won't be as great now everyone has such easy access to save stacking, but it's nice being able to just not care about what rend is coming in.

My chainrasps suffered. I think msu or bigger blobs is needed in the new ghb.

Black coach is f***** awesome. Near enough always has 4+ ward and shooting 3d3 mortals and then d3 on charge is sick.

 

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, MotherGoose said:

Okay after some tweaking of lists, reading of rules and playing my first game with the ghosts (tts) they play way differently to sbg and I love it.

They're *so fast* and manoeuvrable with retreat and charge. Olynder had put in work.

The chagr ability they all get is tasty. I've only played one game but already feels like cheap screens and landing your charges is even more important with the ghosts.

Ethereal is still sweet. Was thinking 4+ ethereal won't be as great now everyone has such easy access to save stacking, but it's nice being able to just not care about what rend is coming in.

My chainrasps suffered. I think msu or bigger blobs is needed in the new ghb.

Black coach is f***** awesome. Near enough always has 4+ ward and shooting 3d3 mortals and then d3 on charge is sick.

 

Welcome! And hopefully this is the first of a long line of great games with your new favorite faction!

[EnixLHQ]

On 6/23/2022 at 9:39 AM, EnixLHQ said:

So I asked Midjorn ey what it thought Lady Olynder would look like pretending to mourn for her lost lovers. Here are a few results.

Here are a couple others with different prompts. Unfortunately, I've taxed out my free allotment of pictures, so that's it for now.

[Liquidsteel]

On 6/24/2022 at 2:14 PM, Boggler said:

What about the Battle Tactics? What does your T1-5 look like? Grand Strategy?

Grand Strategy up in the air, need to see how it plays with scenarios first.

Fight or Flight or A Soul to Claim from the tome seem like decent enough options.

 

Battle Tactics see pretty okay to be honest.

Against the Odds / Barge Through Enemy Lines / Desecrate Their Lands seem pretty easy for the list and get the extra point for Barge almost guaranteed.

Outmuscle / Head to Head / Eye for an Eye / Gaining Momentum all seem like they'll be doable also.

 

Scenarios may effect things but plan is to have at least 10 rasps and 20 blades in the underworlds anyway.

Going for lower drops (I might even push drops lower, can drop the Torment if its not working out for an extra unit possibly) makes the opportunity to drop in end of turn 1 safer, with the threat of the double in to 2.

Nighthaunt tactics themselves are pretty meh, so likely won't be relying on those, unless opponent has a big monster that I can charge 2-3 units in but won't kill it, for Tides of Terror.

 

[Thostos]

Sorry if this has been asked here already but I have a question on the new "Vanishing Phantasm`s" rule.Do the 3 units that are placed into ambush count toward the Core rules reserve limit of no more than half your total units?

The reason I ask is that the Stormcast Scions of the Storm rules specifies that their reserve units from that ability do count toward the Core reserve limit and this Nighthaunt rule does not.

 

[Dogmantra]

37 minutes ago, Thostos said:

Sorry if this has been asked here already but I have a question on the new "Vanishing Phantasm`s" rule.Do the 3 units that are placed into ambush count toward the Core rules reserve limit of no more than half your total units?

There is to the best of my knowledge no core rule limiting reserves to one half of your army in 3rd Edition. Reserves are restricted on a case-by-case basis. As you noted, SCE specifies one in reserve per one on the board. The restriction for Nighthaunt is 3 units.