AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Vastus]

Interesting that it emphasizes battleline and not infantry. Wonder if it's just gonna be any battleline, which means it would also affect non-infantry battleline such as monster battlelines. And how if it's going to affect conditional battleline units.

Considering we have no monsters though, it can only be an improvement for us.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Vastus

[EnixLHQ]

8 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

New General's Handbook does away with the MONSTER shenanigans of Ghur and will emphasize troops choices

 

That's a big fat buff for Nighthaunt in my book 😁👌

I saw that! I love this

[lare2]

What a time to be alive!

[Fellman]

1 hour ago, lare2 said:

What a time to be alive!

pray that nagash dont hear that

[Benlisted]

9 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Harridans deal more damage per model than Reapers even against 3+ save targets. Both unbuffed and with their respective buffs. On any save worse than 3+ they deal dramatically more damage actually. In reinforced units and against units with a bigger footprint where the 2" range comes into play, the damage output in total reverses naturally.

 

Because Harridans work so well against Monsters and elites while Reapers against hordes, I see them working really well together in an army. For the first time we have an actual reason to run both in a list with distinct roles. And I fully expect Reapers+Harridans to be one successful core of a list that itself will be distinct with lists spamming Bladegheists as Scarlet Doom instead. Both these builds heavily featuring Hexwraiths for speed.

Yeah I was a little boggled at the number of people doing harridans down given the numbers!

Just to reiterate:

• Unbuffed harridans have our best damage output per point into 6+ and worse.
• However, the only thing better than them into 5+ and 4+ is myrmourns, and at 5+ the difference is negligible.  Similarly at 3+ BGs do do better but only by a miniscule amount (in fairness though most of the other rend 1 units are within a hair of harridans here too though.
• Factoring in the buffs units can give themselves, harridans are our best output per point into anything 3+ and better, only at 2+ does stuff with rend pull ahead (and remember  -1 from wave of terror makes 2+ effectively 3+).  Charging BGs match them at 3+ and reapers into big units and myrmourns come close.
• In terms of expected damage for min units, without buffs harridans do 6.8 wounds into 4+, 4.6 into 3+. The best into 3+ (BGs) only do 5, the difference is minimal.  But Vs no save units it's 13.3 Vs 10 for harridans Vs BGs, the next highest.
• With buffs harridans deal 10.3 to 4+ and 6.8 to 3+. BGs are doing 10 and 7.5 respectively, less than a wound in it. But for no save, you're looking at 20.5 Vs 15.

To sum up, harridans are point for point our best output into basically everything bar 2+ saves and against high save stuff the difference is very small in actual numbers of damage dealt.  Even without buffs you aren't doing better putting our rend -1 stuff into 3+ or worse units - only myrs are meaningfully better into 3-4+.   Given their being cheaper than gheists and having inbuilt durability on the charge I think they are a great independent operator that doesn't need multiple moving parts or aura babysitting (****** you entirely within). Yes you need to do wounds prior to their combat, but spells, shooting, charges from several units, other fights, etc can all proc this fairly incidentally, especially as you will probably want to be multicharging anyway.  And yes, they don't reach the output of a fully buffed bladegheist unit with 2+/2+ and an extra lightshard attack, but you are probably investing quite a lot into those buffs and even if that is the route you want to take, you can't give every unit those buffs all at once. I really do see harridans being a mainstay of the army!

Also very much agreed that hexes look really good, the mobility is amazing and the charge MWs are also great. I see myself running a mix of hexes/hosts for bodyguard/harridans to be honest, and relying on MWs for downing the toughest targets.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Benlisted

[Neck-Romantic]

Im glad Harridans are looking viable, wish the models werent so hideous. Hormagaunts with hair. Hormaghosts. Hormagheists?

Anyway. Does anyone know if taking multiple Dreadblade Harrows means you can copy a command ability for each DBHarrow?

Edited May 5, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[EnixLHQ]

26 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Im glad Harridans are looking viable, wish the models werent so hideous. Hormagaunts with hair. Hormaghosts. Hormagheists?

Anyway. Does anyone know if taking multiple Dreadblade Harrows means you can copy a command ability for each DBHarrow?

I think so. Reads that way to me.

[lare2]

9 hours ago, lare2 said:

Been looking at Emerald Host myself and came up with the following, which coincidentally runs Dreadscythe:

Lady O: Soul Cage – 340 

GoS: General, MoM; Midnight Tome, Spectral Tether – 150 

Krulghast – 150 

Chainrasp x30 – 330 

Chainrasp x10 – 110

Chainrasp x10 – 110

Spirit Hosts x3 – 125 

Spirit Hosts x3 – 125 

Spirit Hosts x3 – 125 

Dreadscythe x10 – 160 

Dreadscythe x10 – 160 

Terminexus: 85

The list's mainly centred on Lady O and the GoS, who'll deepstrike in. She'll shoot d6 mortals, he'll autocast Terminexus to d3 mortals to a lot of units, and then Emerald that'll cause d3 mortals to d3+1 units. Swingy but if it spikes then it will be hilarious and savage all those little heroes. 

 

Tabled giants the top of turn 5. Initial impressions are we hit like a sledgehammer in our turn but are really susceptible to being wiped out in the opponents. I reckon my opponent could've easily won if he got the double turn going into turn 2.

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, Benlisted said:

Unbuffed harridans have our best damage output per point into 6+ and worse.

True if you ignore thier base size and range. Once you fact that in, you'll realize they are just thralls from the old IDK book.  Not enough reach to make taking a bigger unit worth, and a 10 man unit doesn't do enough damage to be too strong. 

I think the only thing going for them is they can  fight okay on thier own and will make okay units for going of thier own to take objectives. 

One key feature in this game is you do need to kill units. You do need the power to look at some where on the table and say "this turn i kill this so i can hold x objective and win the game".  Harridans will never do that only do some good chip damage and get punched back in the teeth.

I also don't think you need big huge units if you want to win. It's just about how many models will be fighting. you can have a block of 20 reapers in a 2x10 or 2 blocks of 10 reapers in 2x5 formation either way you'll get a whole lot more attacks with reapers and chain rasp. 

[Rors]

 

@Benlisted I don't see how you came to the conclusion that they are point for point the best.

Bladegeist get an extra attack on the charge. 3 attacks on 3/3/-1/1 is better than 4 attacks at 4/4/-/1 at any save value. As unsupported units, harridans will bounce off a lot of stuff. Harridans will do better output on a turn when they are charged but I'd rather be charging. Harridans need their targets wounded to come ahead so you're either investing in other units to do damage or using emerald host at which point you can't guarantee how many troops will be targeted and your giving up on killing support heroes. 

It's also worth mentioning a clever opponent can turn off their bonus through healing. Against say a 3+ save 3 wound unit, you charge harridans in, 5 can attack, you do 2 wounds past the armor (average dice), your opponent has 3 wounds per model so no buff take place for next turn. They survive a little better because of the -1 wound effect but they are the ones who will be getting ground down. If you did get better than average dice and took out a model, on your opponents turn, any access to healing will negate the bonus.

I've seen mention of crossbows to support them, if you did this you need to factor it that you just paid for them to support harridans, which greatly reduces the efficiency to get the extra damage. Oddly they also have synergy with bladegeist in the DOOM sub-faction with their mortal wounds in the charge phase.. but you could also just take another unit of bladegeist for extra mortals.

I don't think the unit is bad on the whole, if they could be ported into other books they'd be insanely useful for a lot of them. Within the Nighthaunt book though, they really don't seem to support a role that you can't do better with other units besides winning more to overkill chaff (and even then, only on the turn you didn't charge or after investing extra points in supporting them).

Happy to be proven wrong, I personally like the models, but I don't think the maths supports them.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Rors

[Evil Bob]

Just a little reminder Arcane Bolt happens at the top of any phase before the next Hero Phase. So there’s another means to trigger Deathsythe Harridans +1/+1.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Evil Bob

[dmorley21]

How are people forgetting Nurgle is one of the most popular armies going right now? Quicksilver Harridans are a perfect counter. 

[Frowny]

Sure, but our wizards aren't that great and if you are casting arcane Bolt you aren't casting anything else. Spectral lure is great, as is our spell lore. The thing i like about bladegheists I'd that they are so reliable. You will always charge and they don't need setup to be great. I agree with others that reapers are where you want to be if you reinforce units. 

Dread blade harrow

Guardian of souls

Kruelghast

1x3 spirit hosts

2x5 hexwraiths

6x10 bladegheists

Or something like that. (I haven't done the math)

T1 your hexwraiths screen by being sideways and then if forced to take T1,  advance 24 inches to pin the enemy, rest of the army moved to mid board. Hexwraiths die on their turn, but after that it should be a free-for-all in then midboard where army wide fly and retreat and charge and good independent troop quality should help carry the day

More a flexible adapt as you go type build rather than a preplanned one. But army wide retreat and charge let's you do that.

[Rors]

What's the general consensus on the Big Bad himself.

In DOOM you could take

Negash

GoS

30 Blades

5 Hex

5 Hex

Pick and endless spell.

Give the GoS that artifact that brings half a unit back on a 4+. Keep him in the underworlds so he can't be sniped until you need him.

Shove Negash and the 30 Blades into opponents face. Between his and the GoS healing and the multiple ways to get a 5+ ward they will be a deathstar that is very hard to remove and deletes stuff all over the place. If somehow they do remove the 30 blades, on a 4+ you get half them back. It's gimmicky and not very reliable but will often boil down to; roll a 4+ and auto win game. Odds are if they are able remove the blades they've lost most their force doing so or have an equally silly combo that works at range, in which case you have a 4+ to stay in the game.

It's not the kind of list I like to run personally as it's point and click, they either have a solution or you win. I don't think it'd go 5-0 at a tournament because if it does get countered there's not much you can do but you'd have an over 50% win rate just for showing up. Likely a powerful new player list that does well on the mid tables but struggles to get the trophy.

'

[Evil Bob]

1 hour ago, Frowny said:

Sure, but our wizards aren't that great and if you are casting arcane Bolt you aren't casting anything else. Spectral lure is great, as is our spell lore.

I would advice against tossing all the screwdrivers out of your tool box just because the work plan only has nails.

 

Although I am curious behind the idea of the 320 point Hexwraith suicide screens. Is it supposed to stymie opponent VP gain while speeding yours up? Is the T2 charging supposed to be more devastating by a disrupted enemy formation? Is there a secret trick you need to share with the class?

The weird movement option on Hexwraiths has gotten me thinking. Normally in battles my first thought is most efficient use of damage so skipping combats is only done when it is a calculated move. With these guys zipping across the board I’ve been considering a bunch of scenarios where during deployment (or during flanking) they are a feint that draws the enemy out of position. My idea of a suicide screen would be to zip them between a suddenly vulnerable character and a hostile unit (that is if the regular 12” movement and an intercept charge isn’t possible).

Edited May 6, 2022 by Evil Bob

[Rors]

The other thing to keep in mind is harridans buff comes into effect if a model was removed not if a model has a wound on it. In a lot of cases throwing an arcane bolt won't trigger the harridans buff.

[mmimzie]

10 minutes ago, Evil Bob said:

I would advice against tossing all the screwdrivers out of your tool box just because the work plan only has nails.

 

Although I am curious behind the idea of the 320 point Hexwraith suicide screens. Is it supposed to stymie opponent VP gain while speeding yours up? Is the T2 charging supposed to be more devastating by a disrupted enemy formation? Is there a secret trick you need to share with the class?

The weird movement option on Hexwraiths has gotten me thinking. Normally in battles my first thought is most efficient use of damage so skipping combats is only done when it is a calculated move. With these guys zipping across the board I’ve been considering a bunch of scenarios where during deployment (or during flanking) they are a feint that draws the enemy out of position. My idea of a suicide screen would be to zip them between a suddenly vulnerable character and a hostile unit (that is if the regular 12” movement and an intercept charge isn’t possible).

As a DoT player. Forcing your opponent behind a screen is very powerful, and can win a game in and of itself. It makes you play alittle more like gargants as you get to take early control of the board.

This said it's quite spoiled by enemy factions that rely on flying units or none conventional movement such as IDK, dragoncast, KO.

With many scenarios having narrow victory margins this is enough to win many games, but other games it won't matter. 

This said i think the wraith also are amazing units for procing waves of terror as they also being d3 mortal wounds to the table. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Rors said:

The other thing to keep in mind is harridans buff comes into effect if a model was removed not if a model has a wound on it. In a lot of cases throwing an arcane bolt won't trigger the harridans buff.

It's both, no?

[Ranzou]

33 minutes ago, Rors said:

if a model was removed not if a model has a wound

Warscroll have magic word "OR" between those two articles.

[Rors]

Didn't notice that. Thanks

[Evil Bob]

1 hour ago, Rors said:

Didn't notice that. Thanks (Ranzou)

The Devs need some interesting worded it keep out the loop holes. In the case of an Arcane Bolt used at range (or Life Drain or Spirit Stealer) a successful Ward Save (if the unit has it) would stop the Deathsythe from getting the +1\+1.  In previous editions the Devs had to FAQ just when a wound was allocated to clear up old body guard rules in the Legions of Nagash book and the jumble of wound negation  questions.

Another fun fact since Arcane Bolt can be used during your opponent’s turn the Deathsythes could in theory get the +1\+1 in every fight with the right planning.

[Benlisted]

8 hours ago, Rors said:

 

@Benlisted I don't see how you came to the conclusion that they are point for point the best.

Bladegeist get an extra attack on the charge. 3 attacks on 3/3/-1/1 is better than 4 attacks at 4/4/-/1 at any save value. As unsupported units, harridans will bounce off a lot of stuff. Harridans will do better output on a turn when they are charged but I'd rather be charging. Harridans need their targets wounded to come ahead so you're either investing in other units to do damage or using emerald host at which point you can't guarantee how many troops will be targeted and your giving up on killing support heroes. 

It's also worth mentioning a clever opponent can turn off their bonus through healing. Against say a 3+ save 3 wound unit, you charge harridans in, 5 can attack, you do 2 wounds past the armor (average dice), your opponent has 3 wounds per model so no buff take place for next turn. They survive a little better because of the -1 wound effect but they are the ones who will be getting ground down. If you did get better than average dice and took out a model, on your opponents turn, any access to healing will negate the bonus.

I've seen mention of crossbows to support them, if you did this you need to factor it that you just paid for them to support harridans, which greatly reduces the efficiency to get the extra damage. Oddly they also have synergy with bladegeist in the DOOM sub-faction with their mortal wounds in the charge phase.. but you could also just take another unit of bladegeist for extra mortals.

I don't think the unit is bad on the whole, if they could be ported into other books they'd be insanely useful for a lot of them. Within the Nighthaunt book though, they really don't seem to support a role that you can't do better with other units besides winning more to overkill chaff (and even then, only on the turn you didn't charge or after investing extra points in supporting them).

Happy to be proven wrong, I personally like the models, but I don't think the maths supports them.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wl0LUdJnvMAR0OJx4c-Fg4Y8b4MUcnaOfQMbQvq_iqc/edit#gid=249056940

Shared this a few pages back, check it out, it's where all the maths I was quoting comes from so you can see the hard numbers for yourself.  You talk about comparing a charging BG to a harridan without their self-buff which I think isn't really fair - yes it's a bit harder to get harridan's off but we have an absolute ton of tools to do so, especially as it doesn't even have to be the unit they're fighting that's wounded, just something nearby.  You can shoot the buffing hero and still have harridans benefit. 

I don't think your point on healing makes sense either to be honest though perhaps this is down to the misunderstanding that they don't get buffed from wounded not killed enemies?  I think if anything it's actually the other way round though - BGs will never get their buff on your opponent's turn, harridans might if you activate in the right order.

I don't think you have to take craventhrone to activate harridans' buffs - any other unit fighting first can do it though obviously this leaves them vulnerable.  But you have: casts from any wizard, shooting from BC/banshee/olynder/chainghasts/craventhrone/krulghast, charges from hexes/BC/awlrach, fight linking from KoS.  That is a list so long every list should have numerous options to achieve this anyway - you don't need to specifically build in something to help activate the buff.

Anyway hopefully that clarifies my thinking!

[Benlisted]

9 hours ago, mmimzie said:

True if you ignore thier base size and range. Once you fact that in, you'll realize they are just thralls from the old IDK book.  Not enough reach to make taking a bigger unit worth, and a 10 man unit doesn't do enough damage to be too strong. 

I think the only thing going for them is they can  fight okay on thier own and will make okay units for going of thier own to take objectives. 

One key feature in this game is you do need to kill units. You do need the power to look at some where on the table and say "this turn i kill this so i can hold x objective and win the game".  Harridans will never do that only do some good chip damage and get punched back in the teeth.

I also don't think you need big huge units if you want to win. It's just about how many models will be fighting. you can have a block of 20 reapers in a 2x10 or 2 blocks of 10 reapers in 2x5 formation either way you'll get a whole lot more attacks with reapers and chain rasp. 

This is a valid point - and one I was thinking about when comparing units.  There's not that much difference between harridans and BGs even into low save units, and nothing has that amazing output so it's hard to find a real hammer.  I think you're right that something like rasps/reapers or massed reapers have a role there as a unit that can actually wipe something in one go.

[lare2]

After having slept on it and mulled on it some more, I wanted to give a summary of how it went. Apologies for the wall of text but I couldn’t seem to see if there was a way to hide it all behind a spoiler tab.

Subfaction:

Emerald Host was actually really good and I rolled high to target 4 units. This really helped chip away at his general and 3 of the little guys, one of which was hiding in the backfield but still died to this turn 4. This combined really well with the Terminexus, which was outstanding, especially considering he had no magic to despell it. 2d3 isn’t to be scoffed at, especially when combined with Lady O’s shooting, making it 2d3+d6 mortals per turn.

Lady O:

Speaking of Lady O, she was class. As predicted, she was too much of a target and two of the big lads targeted her throughout the game. We were playing the vice as well so there was always going to be a rush for the centre of the board. I took the spot early and he never managed to shift her. Grief-stricken was amazing when it went off but I only managed it once. Putting a markerlight onto a unit, when combined with all the other WoT debuffs, savages a unit. Having Soul Cage on her really helped as well. Knowing that I had a guaranteed fight last on a unit allowed me to choose -1 save when I rolled high. She also hits pretty hard as well, especially when combined with Stun. I could never seem to remember Mortarch of Grief though so missed out a lot there. 

Spirit Hosts:

These chaps were grand. They tanked a lot for Lady O – something like 18+ wounds. Two units died protecting her and the third was depleted but she healed it back up. I went for three separate units as I wanted to farm WoT. Glad I did because the first time I did it, my brain hurt with trying to keep track of all the debuffs. Ended up getting some pen and paper. Can’t remember now exactly what it was but I do remember -3 to the save roll. Spirit Hosts hit very hard when they’re suddenly essentially on -3 rend, especially when hitting on 3+ (Grief-stricken) and wounding on 3+ (Nightmare Lantern). Any concerns I had about trying to kill a giant per turn were quickly assuaged.

GoS:

Really happy with this chap. His Nightmare Lantern came in handy so many times and his spell just continued to replenish units. Couldn’t have asked for more. In the end he just hung out with Lady O and was never targeted, being the perceived less attractive option to kill. Yeah, nothing much to say about him but that he’s a dandy utility unit. He did help stack WoT mind and his damage isn’t too shabby. Felt confident charging him in as well knowing Soul Cage was in effect.

Chainrasps:

Loved them. The two units of 10 just wandered on the wings. One unit died to a big lad but the other ended up protecting the Krulghast in the later game. Yeah, they were handy. The big unit of 30, however, joined in the fight in the centre. They were barely scratched when they were targeted – an unmodifiable 5+ save and a 5+ ward really does have an effect. Plus they added to WoT and these little dudes, attacking twice and in two ranks, really hit hard when they’re essentially at, for example, -3 rend.

Dreadscythe:

I didn’t know what to do with these girls. I had both units in deepstrike with the Krulghast. Dropped all of them in and targeted the little giants. The Krulghast shot at one, damaging him, before I failed one out of two charges. The unit that got in did all right, taking off 10 wounds, but then he swung back and wiped it out. In his turn he then charged the second unit and wiped that out as well. So much for the Dreadscythe. Don’t know really what to think about them yet.

Krulghast:

This chap just ran away when his Dreadscythe died and pestered the enemy via shooting. Having that -1 to damage really helped in the centre of the board as well. Yeah, he was OK. I wasn’t massively blown away with him but he did his part.

All in, I was very happy with how the game went. There’s a lot to keep up with and my brain was spinning by the end of the game. As said, we hit hard in our turn but in theirs I think we really do have the potential to crumble. Trying to avoid the double turn happening to us has been on my mind all day. I had a lot of drops and was forced to go first. I do think that if he’d won priority turn 2 I would have been in a lot of trouble. I think we’re always gonna have a lot of drops so really need to plan for being double turned

[Rors]

1 hour ago, Benlisted said:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wl0LUdJnvMAR0OJx4c-Fg4Y8b4MUcnaOfQMbQvq_iqc/edit#gid=249056940

Shared this a few pages back, check it out, it's where all the maths I was quoting comes from so you can see the hard numbers for yourself.  You talk about comparing a charging BG to a harridan without their self-buff which I think isn't really fair - yes it's a bit harder to get harridan's off but we have an absolute ton of tools to do so, especially as it doesn't even have to be the unit they're fighting that's wounded, just something nearby.  You can shoot the buffing hero and still have harridans benefit. 

I don't think your point on healing makes sense either to be honest though perhaps this is down to the misunderstanding that they don't get buffed from wounded not killed enemies?  I think if anything it's actually the other way round though - BGs will never get their buff on your opponent's turn, harridans might if you activate in the right order.

I don't think you have to take craventhrone to activate harridans' buffs - any other unit fighting first can do it though obviously this leaves them vulnerable.  But you have: casts from any wizard, shooting from BC/banshee/olynder/chainghasts/craventhrone/krulghast, charges from hexes/BC/awlrach, fight linking from KoS.  That is a list so long every list should have numerous options to achieve this anyway - you don't need to specifically build in something to help activate the buff.

Anyway hopefully that clarifies my thinking!

Fairly sure The maths from thag spread sheet doesn't include the extra attack BGs get on yhe charge. On my phone right now so hard to double check.

Fair point about harridans being less charge dependant though

Edited May 6, 2022 by Rors

[Benlisted]

3 minutes ago, Rors said:

The maths from thag spread sheet doesn't include the extra attack BGs get on yhe charge.

Fair point about harridans being less charge dependant though

Check the second tab where I've got all self buffs on!  They look even better there.

You can also download a copy and adjust whatever you want to play with any combination of buffs.