AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Bayul]

9 hours ago, Boggler said:

Tomb Banshee, Cairn Wraith, Executioner, Spirit Torment, Guardian of Souls, Knight of Shrouds all for 200pts, and they drop all at once.

...and they all will be exclusively available in a limited board game from now on.

[Boggler]

3 hours ago, Bayul said:

...and they all will be exclusively available in a limited board game from now on.

Exactly, and it will include 3 Chainrasp, 2 Grimghast Reaper, 2 Bladegheist, a Spirit Host.

They can say the box is loaded with models this way.

I can be a haunted house game and include some hobgoblins.

The Order models that play in the house would be brand new and their rules will be OP.

[Boggler]

Alright, I’m up. Game Two! Savage Gains

Nurgle – Befouling Host

3 Trees, 6 Beasts, GUO, 20 Plague Bearers, Lord of Afflictions, Single Pussgoyle. Horticulous

I was super happy to play this list. Again, my opponent had his army painted amazingly. Our table looked amazing. Even the scenery was amazing though it was all tall impassable rocks which was bad for him and his slow movement. The match was going to be great.

He was a 2 drop, myself 1. I did my usual center castle, and he put his Plagues on his obj, GUO towards the left, and Hort/Beasts all on the right side. I knew that he’d get 7pts if I let him go first but the chance at the double was worth it.

He went and moved up on to the objectives. His Lord of Blights came down in my deployment but failed the charge. His army was split into three forces, the beasts, the GUO and the plaguebearers. I knew I had the movement to choose wherever we fought so I was happy with how it was going.

I was confident that I could take back the objectives with just movement so I chose Aggressive Expansion and split up my castle. I figured Nagash could take on all the Beasts by himself, with a unit of Hex and Chainrasps to screen and hold. Olynder went middle with 2 Hex units and the other Rasps did an auto 6 15” move onto the obj with the GUO. Nagash had full buffs and my opponent guessed the Hand of Dust on a Beast. The Hex that charged the Beasts didn’t do anything. If I did some wounds they were negated with the 5++

I got 7pts so we were tied 7-7 after 1

Priority! I lost. Again! Looking at my notes, it is the 7^th loss in a row and I’ve only won 1 in the last 10 rolls! WTF! I’m not complaining but things would be better for our beloved Nighthaunt if they had some luck on their side! If I won I’d be on 8 pts and would clean up the Beasts side of the board and probably take out the Lord of Afflictions as well.

He chose Broken Ranks on the Rasps next to the GUO. Nagash prevented all magic, as usual and he began to retreat his Beasts and run up the others. The Lord of Afflictions headed towards the middle Hex and my back obj. At the end of the movement phase he summoned 3 Nurglings.

Charge phase saw 5/6 Beasts getting back in to combat smashing mortals onto the Hex and Rasps. They did so many mortals that they could keep charging farther in as more of my models fell. I made zero Deathless saves! The LoA got into the middle Hex and the GUO the other Rasps.

The Bests killed the Hex and the Rasps. The LoA did nothing and the GUO killed the Rasps. Nagash attacked a Beast and did nothing, even with his 4 Arcane bolts he only did 6 damage. The Hex did nothing to the LoA… He got Broken ranks with a Monster for 8pts 15-7

My turn I wasn’t feeling so bad. Oly was in a good spot. Nagash could take out 2-3 Beasts! And I’d have at least Nagash obj plus my own. It was looking ok. I chose Broken Ranks on the Beats with 2hp left.

Nagash buffed up Mystic Shield and Reaping. My opponent again guessed the Hand on his Horticulous! Lifesteal on the Beast was 2 mortals and blocked with 5++ Lady O rolled a 1 on her mortals to the LoA and then she rolled 2 on her MW’s which were both blocked!… great job! I think my opponent was rolling hot on his 5++ this was for sure. If I did a mortal somehow, it was blocked!

Start of movement Nagash used Arcane Bolt to kill the Beast… Finally… then he moved up to take out some other beasts. Oly and the Hex moved over to help with the LoA who should already be dead but whatever!

Nagash charged in and split his attack evenly on 2 beasts. Neither died. They lived with 4/5 health each. I was shocked. One of the 2d6 damage rolls for Alakanash was a 3… Does GW think the Scriptor is always 12 mortals? This is the real world here. Dice happens! Anyways, since I didn’t kill anything I didn’t even take the objective back. The Hex that charged the LoA didn’t even do anything. If I did get some damage then it was negated with the 5++. The LoA killed 3 Hex in return.

What a brutal turn. I took 4pts but was still happy with how things were going. Nagash was on his own now and I was super disappointed that I didn’t kill anything this turn. Did I really have to put all of Nagash buffed attacks into a single Beast just to take it off? That’s crazy…

I lost priority again and took Finest Hour on Nagash.

He chose Ferrocious Advance on the Beasts and moved in to take my back Obj.

There wasn’t really anything I could do here. The disease tokens had taken their toll on my units and I didn’t have much left. Plus, I didn’t really kill anything and couldn’t be everywhere anymore. What a strange game. I really felt like it was going to be a good matchup but in the end he took all the Obj and took 9pts leading 24-11 going in to my T3.

I chose Conquer with Nagash, thinking I’d do something this turn. Hand was miscast and that was my Hero phase. Lady O did nothing to the LoA again… WTF! Hahaha, she was supposed to be a scary MW cannon!

Nagash went into the Beasts and did zero damage. He literally failed with all his attacks. My opponent didn’t even have to roll a save!

That was game right there! It was still 24-11 at the end of 3 and we called it when I lost the priority again!

Damn, Nurgle is a cool freakin army. I really liked the list and felt it was a winnable matchup. There is nothing glaringly OP in Nurgle and their internal balance seems to be even. The units, the summoning, the wheel, all cool things. The 5++ is a bonus and is brutal to play against if all you do is MW’s on 6’sto hit from 2019

We laughed at the dice imbalance but that’s no excuse for anything. Half my points are Nagash and if he does nothing then that is how it goes. This was my fifth game and I still haven’t rolled a 10 on the charge. Nagash has miscast 3 times and he had only Dusted 1 Snatchaboss.

What can I say that we don’t already know.? We need a freakin Hammer!

Playing against the two new books were a real pleasure. The new books seem to be really balanced and not at all OP. I think they are better than the Orruk/Stormcast books by far so I am a bit excited to see what fortune comes our way. We are going to need a lot help do so anything in this game state. I honestly don’t even know what can be done.

My final game was vs a new player with his Kruleboys list and we played to a draw on Feral Foray

He had a Mireboss General, 2 Rogue Idols, 3x6 BB’s 20, and 10 Hobs. No Shaman, no Snatchaboss!

Great game. I’m not going to give the play by play because I’m still exhausted! But, I will say that I see Kruleboyz as a bit of a copycat of Nighthaunt. Back in 2019 everyone played NH because they came with the boxed game. Nighthaunt are mediocre. Kruleboyz are mediocre. It was great to play a new player though and if we all take the time to play and have fun with these new guys then the hobby will be in a better place for it. The game highlight was a Rogue Idol making a long bomb 12 charge onto Laydy O and killing her only to have Nagash pile in and kill it after. We laughed a lot. He told me after that he was scarred to face the Nighthaunt because he'd never even seen them before and the ghost aesthetic was intimidating!

Its Nowruz! Persian New Year!

Thanks for reading!

[Boggler]

Are you ready for the new book?

Here is what models I have. Assembled and painted.

Help me figure out how to get ready for the new book!

Spoiler

Leaders
Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (955)
- Allies
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (215)
Kurdoss Valentian, the Craven King (160)
2xGuardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (135)
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (120)
2xDreadblade Harrow (100)
Krulghast Cruciator (120)
2xSpirit Torment (115)
Tomb Banshee (80)
Cairn Wraith (70)
Knight of Shrouds (100)

Battleline
80 x Chainrasp Horde 
30 x Grimghast Reapers 
20 x Hexwraiths
9 x Spirit Hosts

Units
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (190)
20 x Dreadscythe Harridans (160)
12 x Glaivewraith Stalkers (60)
8 x Myrmourn Banshees (75)

Behemoths
Mourngul (300)

I also have Garkor, and Keldrek.

 I'm going to get the Arena of Shades box to get me 30 Bladegheists, (we never know!) another Spirit Torment (or maybe OP named version), 2 Chainghasts, the Scriptor, and those Boltboyz.

What else do I need. I'm notably missing:

Black Coach

Reikenor

Do I really need these two? I always considered the Black Coach to be too expensive and then bought multiple times more on other stuff...

EDIT: Also. Will we see Warscrolls for these unique characters?

Garkorr

Liekeron

Keldrek

Crawlocke

Edited March 20, 2022 by Boggler

[darkdaysdawn]

On 3/18/2022 at 7:42 AM, Bayul said:

 

Do I have to say

"This unit going is to record the name of a judged soul!"

Seems a bit melodramatic...

No, and I won't either. It is not only grammatically incorrect, but also incorrect in its meaning. It should say... 

"This unit is going to record the name of a hero who's soul will be judged."

Souls don't have names. Heroes do. And the adjective (judged) should follow the noun (soul) that it modifies. That's how English works. GW's writers need help. LOL

Nit picks aside, I think it lame that it doesn't work against Death. That's fine for Open and Narrative, but antithetical to Matched play. 

[darkdaysdawn]

On 3/18/2022 at 1:39 PM, Boggler said:

I get it. We waited a long time for something. Anything.

The problem is that this is it. This what they gave us. This ability does nothing.

I was hoping the new book would do away with all the "if this, and this, and then this, but only if" garbage.⁸

If anyone can tell me the positives then I'll gladly listen.

Even if this guy had 8 3+ 3+ -2 rend D3 attacks this ability would still be garbage.

Armywide bodyguard rule?

We'll need it.

I'm a bit underwhelmed too. He might be great, sure, but... It is not tactical or strategic to wait for a lucky roll. It's just luck.  Snakes and Ladders is a game of luck. Wargames are supposed to be strategic. 

Maybe he'll be cheap enough to spam and that'll help buffer the luck aspect? Who knows. I was hoping for something more appropriate for matched play. I guess I still am?  Fingers crossed the rest of his warscroll makes up for the luck factor and Death constraint. 

[Kadeton]

I really like the idea of the Scriptor, though I think they flubbed it a bit on the ability description. He shouldn't be recording just a name, he should be writing the story of how the target will die, which is then unfolding on the table as he writes. That would explain why sometimes it takes a few turns to get to the part where the target actually dies - writer's block is a terrible thing. I also really like the image of him writing down a particular cause of death, but the hero sidesteps it at the last second and survives, so the Scriptor furiously scratches that sentence out while glaring daggers at them, and starts writing an even more horrible end.

It does seem to be an ability that's more suited to narrative games, and honestly I think that's fine - people should play more narrative games anyway. Too much matched play is what leads to the kind of bitter negativity where this ability sucks and therefore everything sucks and Nighthaunt will always be terrible because GW hates us or whatever. Before the tome comes out I'm not going to presume, and after it comes out I'll play with it regardless.

[EnixLHQ]

23 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

I love to paint and re-pose and kitbash... but I also enjoy playing the game.

And to actually enjoy playing I need to feel like I have a reasonable shot at winning, without having to know every last intimate detail of my opponents force balanced against my own before I even show up to the venue.

Even local tourney scene has become "you must do this vs that and that vs this or you lose" which is a bit of a shame. I havnt got a game in since before covid and feel a bit too out of touch to know which enemy model will singlehandedly table my army if it isnt countered.

At least for the moment, the month or two left before our book comes out, you could always build a Nagash list and kind of get away with what you're looking for. Take Nagash, have him cast Reaping Scythe on his Alakanash, have another caster cast Mystic Shield on him so the rest of his spells are Arcane Bolt and then have him stomp around a bit. He synergizes really well with multi-wound NH units for model return, and is much more optimal of a wrecking ball than a mercenary gargant.

If anything it's fun and is an excuse no to pre-build a list based on a meta. Just get some skirmishers and objective holders in there and see what happens.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 hours ago, darkdaysdawn said:

I'm a bit underwhelmed too. He might be great, sure, but... It is not tactical or strategic to wait for a lucky roll. It's just luck.  Snakes and Ladders is a game of luck. Wargames are supposed to be strategic. 

Maybe he'll be cheap enough to spam and that'll help buffer the luck aspect? Who knows. I was hoping for something more appropriate for matched play. I guess I still am?  Fingers crossed the rest of his warscroll makes up for the luck factor and Death constraint. 

I think a lot of people in the general thread were overreacting to this guy's ability to do mortals at range with no real counterplay, but I think this take is underselling what the Scriptor brings to the table.

What this guy can do for you, which basically no other units can, is threaten to deal an absolutely huge amount of mortal wounds out of nowhere if you don't deal with him. The odds that this happens early are not in your favour. But the odds that it will happen eventually are quite high. I did a few test rolls, and it's not uncommon to get two or so activations of this ability per game.

You can't rely on the scriptor to just snipe out a hero with mortal wounds early in the game. But you can use him strategically. He needs line of sight once at the start of the game, and then he can go hide in an out of the way location far from where the action is happening. The opponent then has to make the decision whether they want to ignore him and risk 2d6 mortals on their most expensive hero or commit troops to remove him, which will probably leave them out of position. That can potentially be good. If this guy is ~100 points and threatens to chunk a 740 point Teclis for 2d6 mortals just by being on the board, then I could see him being worth running.

[Boggler]

On 3/20/2022 at 1:12 PM, Boggler said:

What else do I need?

I've decided that for 305 pts I'm going to go with Gorslav and 40 Zombies.

I really hope we don't get screwed with allies rules because I think that this combo will be a good addition to any list.

Maybe a unit of Bloodknights?

What do you guys think?

[darkdaysdawn]

11 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I think a lot of people in the general thread were overreacting to this guy's ability to do mortals at range with no real counterplay, but I think this take is underselling what the Scriptor brings to the table.

What this guy can do for you, which basically no other units can, is threaten to deal an absolutely huge amount of mortal wounds out of nowhere if you don't deal with him. The odds that this happens early are not in your favour. But the odds that it will happen eventually are quite high. I did a few test rolls, and it's not uncommon to get two or so activations of this ability per game.

You can't rely on the scriptor to just snipe out a hero with mortal wounds early in the game. But you can use him strategically. He needs line of sight once at the start of the game, and then he can go hide in an out of the way location far from where the action is happening. The opponent then has to make the decision whether they want to ignore him and risk 2d6 mortals on their most expensive hero or commit troops to remove him, which will probably leave them out of position. That can potentially be good. If this guy is ~100 points and threatens to chunk a 740 point Teclis for 2d6 mortals just by being on the board, then I could see him being worth running.

So what you are saying is, Scriptor makes great bait if he chooses a key enemy hero. 

Maybe he's enough of a threat that opponents leave our other important heroes alone, at least for a while?  Thus, our response to the shooting heavy meta is now, "Hey, shoot this guy while I get my main heroes into position." Meh... Could work?  I do like forcing my opponent to choose one bad thing vs another bad thing. 

[Boggler]

Here are my notes on running Nagash for 6 games.

Wave of Terror = 1 time! on game six. A unit of 10 Chainrasps came out of the Underworlds and killed 4 Boltboyz. They killed the other 2 in the combat phase.

Failed Charges. I rolled Double 1's six times. I also rolled a 3 four times.

I would have loved to have TEN Wave of Terrors instead!

Nagash miscast 3 times. He also only Hand of Dusted one model.

Hand of Dust:

Game 1. DoK

T1. Nothing in Range, So I used Spirit Drain on Morathi 3 wounds

T2. Nothing in Range, So I used Spirit Drain on Morathi 3 wounds

T3. Dead. Game over

Game 2. BoC

T1. Nothing in Range, So I used Spirit Drain

T2. Failed to Cast

T3. Failed to Cast

T.4 Miscast on the first spell. Game over.

Game 3. Kruleboyz

T1. Nothing in Range, So I used Spirit Drain on Gobsprakk 4 wounds

T2. Nothing in Range, So I used Spirit Drain on Snatchaboss 2 wounds

T3. Dusted the Snatchaboss

T4. Failed to cast

Game 4. Idoneth

T1. Nothing in Range, So I used Spirit Drain on the Turtle - No wounds

T2. Dead

Game 5. Nurgle

T1. Opponent Guessed the Hand

T2. Opponent Guessed the Hand

T3. Failed the cast, Game over

Game 6. Kruleboyz

T1. Nothing in Range, So I used Spirit Drain on the Mirebrute 3 wounds

T2. Nothing in Range, So I used Spirit Drain on the Mirebrute 2 wounds

T3. Failed the Cast

T4. Dead

Now, I'm no mathematician but I'd say that's not good.

Hopefully Nagash has a points reduction! These abilities aren't automatic!

[Kadeton]

Oof, that's some brutal luck! In an army that's already heavily luck-based, bringing Nagash with his jackpot Hand of Dust and push-your-luck multi-casting mechanics is really doubling down.

I didn't really get the idea of a "slot machine" army before playing Nighthaunt. Previously my main experience was with Mawtribes, and while they give extremely powerful bonuses for lucky rolls (e.g. bulk mortal wounds on the charge), their core stats are solid enough that even if they don't get those benefits they can power through. But with Nighthaunt, even if you set everything up right with all your charges and auras working together, not getting any Waves of Terror on your big turn probably means you're sunk. They just don't have any staying power in a fair fight. But other times you hit the jackpot, and the opponent is crushed before they know what hit them.

I'm hoping they level that out a bit in the new book. Not so overwhelming when things go right, but correspondingly less underwhelming under merely normal circumstances.

[dmorley21]

9 hours ago, Boggler said:Hopefully Nagash has a points reduction! These abilities aren't automatic!

Gotta disagree here. I’ve played Nagash/Nighthaunt 10 times, and think Nagash is just about right for his points. 
 

I think your issue is going for Hand of Dust. In 10 games, I’ve never used it. With Reaping Scythe, Arcane Bolt, and at times Soul Cage; Nagash is just an absolute beat stick. I haven’t used him against a Mega-Gargant yet, but he’s run over everything I’ve thrown him against (except for one set of bad rolls versus a min unit of blightkings). He also is such a threat that he forces your opponent into bad positions often, which any regular NH player has learned to take advantage of. There’s a reason a Nagash NH list made it into the top 8 at LVO. It’s definitely a powerful list as long as NH spells remain the same. 

[Kadeton]

I really hope that our other heroes will step up in the new tome, and running Nighthaunt without Nagash will be at least on par competitively. I would much prefer to play a Nighthaunt army, not just Nagash and a handful of ghosts.

[Boggler]

10 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

Gotta disagree here. I’ve played Nagash/Nighthaunt 10 times, and think Nagash is just about right for his points. 
 

I think your issue is going for Hand of Dust. In 10 games, I’ve never used it. With Reaping Scythe, Arcane Bolt, and at times Soul Cage; Nagash is just an absolute beat stick. I haven’t used him against a Mega-Gargant yet, but he’s run over everything I’ve thrown him against (except for one set of bad rolls versus a min unit of blightkings). He also is such a threat that he forces your opponent into bad positions often, which any regular NH player has learned to take advantage of. There’s a reason a Nagash NH list made it into the top 8 at LVO. It’s definitely a powerful list as long as NH spells remain the same. 

I finally got around to my Nagash late last year. If he could have been included in Nighthaunt sooner then I definitely would have made it more of a priority. The old version is still far superior and would have made Nighthaunt a completely different army for six months at least. People can argue points all they want, to each their own. The fact remains the he is the highest cost model in the game.

I went for Hand of Dust 8 times in 6 games. With 5 of those being failed to cast. Two were guessed and one was successful. I hardly think my issue is the spell. Casting order was always Mystic Shield -> Reaping - check range for portal something. Otherwise the rest of the NH spell lore is a solid choice if in range.

I think your point about being the threat is the most important part. Its super true and apparent since in my six games Nagash didn't have anything decent in range to Hand of Dust 8 times and usually in the early rounds. Spirit Drain did decent work and its hard to say if a couple Arcane Bolts would have been better served. My opponent generally didn't know what to do or what Nagash could do, and this gave up lots of board space.

It was vs shooting that gave me problems. Idoneth and DoK mostly, Kruleboys less so on Nagash but devastating vs the Nighthaunt, Nurlge and BoC were pretty even with Nurgles Disease adding up over time.

Nagash is still powerful and going 4-1 at LVO is a real accomplishment. With wins vs Thunderbellies, Hammers of Sigmar, Zaitrek, and Fangs of Sotek.

No one has managed a 4-1 since. Only four people have gone 3-2 and it is unclear if they were running Nagash.

If Nagash Nighthaunt was actually that powerful then I think we'd be seeing better results than these.

As for me, I'm going to another 3 game tourney in a couple weeks. Nagash is due to go off at some point and maybe I'll even get an elusive Wave of Terror!

[dmorley21]

@Boggler

I never played with old Nagash as I don’t play other Death armies, so I can’t really compare though I did hear he was weakened.

I’m one of those 3-2 finishes with Nagash/NH at Brewhammer in the beginning of February. With the new rules from the latest battlescroll, one of my losses would have been a win most likely as I had to chew through 3 units of Pink Horrors. I think a Nagash/NH list is a 3-2/4-1 list. There’s lists it just loses to, but as far as Nighthaunt go that’s still really strong. 
 

My biggest issue with Hand of Dust is spending the extra points for the spell portal. I just haven’t been able to justify that, as any list with Nagash needs bodies. 
 

I also haven’t gotten any IRL games in since that event I went to - been busy. Gotten a few in on TTS. 

[Garxia]

Here are our crossboos:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/23/the-craventhrone-guard-are-spectral-sharpshooters-who-can-fire-bolts-through-walls/

I know there's more on the warscroll, but the low range AND 4+ 4+, doesn't look great.

Hope they're good, really like the models and want to do something on shooting phase! 😁

[lare2]

Aye, not impressed at all. Hopefully there's synergy for them elsewhere in the book. 

Best case, they're battline, which means you can run 15. That means 30 shots, 15 hits, and 7.5 wounds (on average). Then you've gotta get past a save which will inevitably be able to ignore -1 rend.

Yep, hopefully there's more to come. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by lare2

[Liquidsteel]

"the spectral bolts of the Craventhrone Guard always hit their mark"...

Hits on 4s 🤣

[Xs_0013]

Imo, the spectral bolts special rule is great! Flavoury and unique.

But the stats just suck butt. They won't do any meaningful damage. 

Maybe they have a huge movement and therefore a large threat range? Dunno, shame 

 

[Darkrich]

i was hoping for two damage a shot or mortals or something. Two reveals now, it's not looking good.

[Boggler]

I don't think they manufactured many Arena of Shades because the rules previews seem like they don't want it to sell.

The article suggests that when your target gets hit they'll lose their aura abilities.

They could double their range if they don't move. And there better be some hit/wound bonuses from the banner.

Who knows right?

Edited March 23, 2022 by Boggler

[Liquidsteel]

That probably refers to killing heroes or something.

[Darkrich]

Maybe its like the Krulghast, where they just need to cause a wound to trigger some ability. In this case, that would be pretty sweet depending on what they ability being triggered is. But why not reveal that and get hype for new models.