AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[Siorra]

9 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

The Eidolons got some minor changes on their profile.

The link's not working for me! Don't tease us like this!

[Kitsumy]

is is the same pic i saw, both got 2 move

mage avatar is even worse, with lesser dmg and range on ranged weapon

melee one is mostly same, maybe sligth buff on a minor weapon

 

[DocKeule]

It is a link to the international IDK Group on Facebook.

Aspect of the Sea:
Movement range up from10" to 12"
Missile range is reduced from 15" to 12"
Trident rend goes up to -3
Sceptre goes down from three attacks to two and now wounds on 4+ instead of 3+

Aspect of the Storm stays the same as far as I can see.

 

[Baz]

33 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

It is a link to the international IDK Group on Facebook.

Aspect of the Sea:
Movement range up from10" to 12"
Missile range is reduced from 15" to 12"
Trident rend goes up to -3
Sceptre goes down from three attacks to two and now wounds on 4+ instead of 3+

Aspect of the Storm stays the same as far as I can see.

 

hook is damage 2 now on the storm

[Sonnenspeer]

2 hours ago, DocKeule said:

The Eidolons got some minor changes on their profil

Edit; obsolete

Edited March 2, 2022 by Sonnenspeer

[Kitsumy]

yes i dont get it why mage avatar was nerfed when he was allready totally bad, why cant be as other 2 cast monsters like mamfred, neferata or verminlords?

noone used it since his release 4 years ago, it was the unit i was sure that would be buffed, same as lotan. istead it get even worst.. lets hope at least it cost around 200p like should be with that statline

 

[Liquidsteel]

5 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

yes i dont get it why mage avatar was nerfed when he was allready totally bad, why cant be as other 2 cast monsters like mamfred, neferata or verminlords?

noone used it since his release 4 years ago, it was the unit i was sure that would be buffed, same as lotan. istead it get even worst.. lets hope at least it cost around 200p like should be with that statline

 

You haven't seen the abilities yet. Might get a boost on the actual scroll.

[Drazhoath]

11 hours ago, DocKeule said:

The Eidolons got some minor changes on their profile.

The link doesnt work…

[Kitsumy]

ok i got more data... and in line with every reveal they are nerf after nerf and some more nerfs.

 

turtle increased by 175p....lost mortals on charge,  but ranged dmg increased to d3dmg and rider spear got 1 rend.

tank eels cant inorove his armor, every eel atack were merged into 6 atacks of 3/3/-1/1dmg. and increased to 200p.

 

melee avatar aura now only afect riders. not mounts. and now 12" instead 18"...

 

akhelian aura deleted from rerolls 1s to +1 hit only in 9".

 

confirmed fuethan rules are only the joke previewed in warcom. no more rerolls on ebb or reroll wounds.

 

i can be a cryer but cant uderstand why a midd tier army as idk only is getting nerf after nerf and some more nerfs. only positivve changes were the namarti changes in fury box, and im sure ill see in future rumours that those scrolls will be nerfed too

[DocKeule]

What is the source of that information?

Edit: Most of those points are somewhat believable but the point increases alone would have me bring two or three units less in an Akhelian heavy list.

The profile changes on the Ishalen would probably be a wash apart from the save-issue. (Yet unclear of course if that means that the save-improvement after the charge in cancelled or they can't be affected by a mystic shield or allout defense...or both. Butto increase the point by a third?

Eidolon of the Storm only working on the riders is a thing I also don't see. Especially since the mounts do most of the work with the IDK.

Akhelian King: +1 to hit instead of re-rolls I can believe. It is sad but losing the re-rolls was to be expected. Apparently that is not a thing anymore in 3rd edition. The smaller babble would suck but honestly I have moved away from the king/Volturnos lately any way. 


If those rumors are legit that would be a tough blow at least without knowing any new buffs from the allegiance or other heroes. 

I am a little suspicious that GW wants to make us play IDK now the way that they were intended from the first release. That would mean a Namarti backbone with only few Akhelians sprinkled in. That is just my personal conspiracy theory but I am pretty sure the eel spam was never intended when you read the descriptions in the first battletome.



 

Edited March 3, 2022 by DocKeule

[vinnyt]

I mean, this is a pretty big blow but is still think vinnys moving castle of:

 

Eidolon

King

Tidecaster*

3x2 sharks

2x10 reavers

 

May be bretty good

Can lose the tidecaster or even, gasp, a shark if you have to.

Play keepaway and just gun everything down with your whole army shooting at 2s/2s/-1/1 or d3 damage for the first 2 turns and then full send round 3 with 6 sharks into whatever is left. 

You're immune to shooting on round 1 since you'll juice that tide and with insane shark mobility and dakka, you can pretty much just gun down whatever strikes your fancy. 

This list also ruins the reaver mirror match since you can just move within 12" and erase reaver units without eating unleash hell. Speaking of which, unleashing hell if somone wants to charge the sharks will also be 2/2/-1/1 with 20 shots and that'll also turn on the shark chomps. 

Don't need to worry about cover because you're not targetable outside of 12" on turn 1. And a nearly 600 point turtle that dies just as fast as ever and only has the ranged output of 2 sharks seems like a lot. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by vinnyt

[Kitsumy]

sure full namartis could be even top army, but... call me crazy i started this army to play sea elves on fishes. not only to spam 100 bald and blind guys

 

but yes. 2x30 reavers 

2x10 thralls

lotann

storm

tidecaster

and others 200-300 points could be great, but would be as fun as voltur and eels list were on first 3 years

Edited March 4, 2022 by Kitsumy

[Kitsumy]

more rumours, this time buffs

 

we have some way to summon a second boat( boooo, im not buying a second one!)

and units inside have a 5++ but minis with 5+wounds cant get inside.

thralls have a way to figth 2 times.

 

again good things for namartis, seems likely we went from only eels to healty book and now will go to only namarti

[DocKeule]

Well at least I haven't sold my second boat after the latest GHB 🤣

Well, we will see. But IDK might be a very different army after next week.

[Derek]

I think you might want to wait till the book drops.  Got 24-48 hours until preorders go live then 7 days from then the book will drop and we can find out how the book will turn out.  

[DocKeule]

The will be reviews of the book going online on Youtube this Saturday. We will have at least an idea what the rules will look like.

But yes, right now I would not buy or sell anything.

[Beliman]

16 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

i can be a cryer but cant uderstand why a midd tier army as idk only is getting nerf after nerf and some more nerfs. 

One month ago, the Honest Wargamer updated a full indepth statistics. Idoneth had 41% winrate vs High top-tier (armies that had more than 55% winrate in tournaments) and 50% winrate vs middle armies (45-55% winrate).  

To my surprise, Idoneth had more than 70% of winrate vs low-tier armies (less than 45% winrate). There are some issues here, because an army that it's "middle-tier" (btw, top 7 without their last wins), can faceroll "lower armies" better than the top 6.

I'm not saying that IDK are the best of the best, but I can't see them as bad as some people claim.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Beliman

[vinnyt]

Deepkin has always been a bit of a bully army where you'll steamroll people who aren't prepared for what they can do but struggles against stuff that can hit back after the initial impact. 

I really don't see that changing with the new book (assuming the rumors are relatively true) but I've been hearing the same rumors over and over from different sources enough to start to believe 'em.

I think the 30 thralls, thrallmaster, turtle, and reavers composition is a bit of a trap, even with thralls fighting twice. 30 thralls, thrallmaster, and turtle are probably going to be nearly 1100 points. Once you add in the 20 reavers you're at 1440ish and then you'll probably want to take a tidecaster and at least one other hero (possibly eidolon) which will take you to 2000. Thralls are pretty much the epitome of a glass hammer, but with the -1 to wound in cc and the turn 1 relative unshootability, may be able to cause a bunch of ruckus. 

Overall, ishlaen with an ethereal 4+ at 200 points is a pretty substantial nerf, especially considering how relatively easy it is to save stack on stuff like sharks and namarti.

The turtle at 555 seems overcosted without some serious warscroll adjustments. 8 shots at -1 rend d3 damage and battleline is super interesting though and will be a great skew build against armies that can't reliably deal with tortles. Half your army in 2 16 wound models with no ward save is a big problem though.

Sharks are sharks. I like em but can see why others don't. I think I'll still try real hard to make em work in the mobile castle approach since they're still our most efficient overall damage dealers, especially considering points increases on other stuff. The fuethan singles battalion is pretty much garbage without any additional benefits, but I do love me some battleline sharks.

Reavers are great and I think at least 10 are gonna be required in almost every list. 

I'm also real interested in Dhom-Hain. Considering the prevalence of monsters, there could be some real shenanigans here. 

 

From a purely competitive standpoint, I'm looking at how do deepkin stack up against the current Big Bads:

point of clarification: when i talk about the thrall blob, I assume they're at a functional 3+ save and -1 to wound in cc.

SCE/Living cities since they're basically the same:

Dragons: Massed -1 rend shooting is pretty good against dragons since you'll be putting them on a 4+ save. However, they're faster than us, hit harder than us, and live longer than us with a 3+. Nothing we have can rip through a unit of 4 without being absolutely mangled in response and 4 breath attacks as a stand and shoot will immediately nuke a turtle who, without rerolls, is much less of a threat than before. 30 thralls on a 3+* save at -1 to wound will lose about 16 before shooting/being dragged into hte storm. On average, the unit is basically dead if you take those into account. You'll need to chip the dragons down with a bunch of shooting and will have 1 turn to do so.  They don't bracket and unleash hell from 10 reavers on average won't kill a dragon which means you need to get at least a full round of concentrated fire into them before they erase whatever they touch. 

Fulminators: Similar to dragons. They'll kill the 30 man thrall block instantly on the charge. You can probably throw a turtle or some sharks in there afterwards to hurt em bad, but the -2 rend on the mounts is real troublesome for deepkin. They're more vulnerable to stand and shoot though, and you can probably chip them down more reliably than the dragons (unless they start off the board)

Grandhammer annihilators: These guys are the turtle crunchers. They remove turtles. After the deepstrike MW, the impact hit MW, and the hammer attacks, 3 of them can remove a turtle in one go. All out defense will probably save the turtle, as a 1+ save is huge, but otherwise you're in huge trouble. Stand and shoot/thralls can put in a lot of work here, and these guys are probably the least impactful of the SCE Big Scaries besides....

Raptors: We will have little to no problem with these because we will shoot them and they can't shoot us. Or they stay in the sky and we get to play 2000 points vs 1500 points for a couple turns and they can't double tap the turn they come down. This is the rock to our paper. 

Sons of Behemat

So, do we pass the damage check? Honestly, we probably do. Our massed shooting is pretty reliable and we're mobile enough to be able to focus on the non-finest hour'd megas. However, there's an elephant in the room and his name is:

Kragnos: This guy is a PROBLEM. Easily put at a 1+ save which makes massed -1 rend shooting nearly worthless, he also bubbles out mortal wounds if injured which we DO NOT LIKE. He crunches turtles immediately on the charge and his charge 3d6 bubble is a big big issue considering how hard we wanna play keep away. If the sons player can yeet a gatebreaker into the thrall blob, he'll likely kill about 20 (if he pops the correct buffs/uses manticore venom). Sure there'll be some damage back, but he'll cut right through em in the next combat phase. That being said, the remaining thralls will do a number on the gatebreaker. Kragnos just kills the thralls for minimal return damage.

This army will still be a challenge because we need to one shot the giants without losing output and all they have to do is survive or get a couple favorable engagements.

Seraphon

Tough matchup but actually fairly do-able. They've got the usual bag of salamander related tricks but we're great against shooting and sharks don't care about d3 mortal wounds sprinkled about. Namarti and turtles absolutely do though, so watch out because that thrallmaster dying to incidental MW means that the thrall brick is super exposed. But, -1 rend shooting is excellent and you should be able to pincushion most things in that army and shark/thrall the big dinos to death. 

SBG

Hoooo boy ok so this one is kinda tough to discuss because I a) don't have a lot of experience against them and b) there's a lot of variation in what they can bring. I'm gonna look at the LVO classic list first since that's the one you're probably gonna see a lot of:

Zombies and friends: Thralls will put in work here. Unfortunately they're also probably gonna die in doing so but that's just how it goes. This is not the most ideal of matchups but with focused fire and charges, you should be able to rip through a 60 man horde no problemo. Just remember to kill the characters with shooting first, screen out the backfield with reavers for the 10 man skellie deepstrike, and shoot the characters first. This is gonna be the sort of game where a double turn into turn 2 or 3 will be unimaginably huge. The mega gargant is a problem but the characters have to die ASAP. Try to avoid the mega for as long as possible until you're in high tide or get a double turn. Not a favorable matchup in most scenarios.

M-m-m-monster mash: Actually this isn't so bad for us. Kill the vengorian lords of -1 wound crip ****** with shooting and then do deepkin things on all the monsters. Thralls are pretty excellent here.

Lumineth/DoK

Same army, different day. Now we have better shooting! I'm still not that scared of lumineth. Teclis is pretty spooky but also a huge chunk of their army and now easier than ever to shoot/kill. Daughters of Khaine also fall into this category of "chip morathi down with a single unit of reavers every turn while erasing their shooting from behind the comfort of a juiced turn 1 tide" 

Ironjawz

Sooooo, these guys are still a bit tricky considering their movement and damage. Honestly, this is definitely a matchup where the FAT thrall brick will be phenomenal. Also, and I know I'm a broken record, but -1 rend shooting on the pigs is how you just remove them. Everyone always focuses on the mawkrusha, but pigs win games. Kill them early and then capture every objective while the cabbage kills one unit a turn.

Nurgle

Baaaaad matchup. Real bad matchup. Horrifically bad matchup.

This army has all the stuff that nukes us. They don't care about shooting. They're unbelievably survivable. They chip mortal wounds like it's nothing and they do so in EVERY turn. They're actually pretty fast and have deepstrike/outflanking. This army is just BAD for us to play into. Also they heal constantly so chipping wounds onto them with shooting is not great. They can easily kill the thrallmaster without even trying, tank the turtle and chip it to death with contagion, summon a hero that stops the thralls piling in and subsequently rip the thralls to death with blightkings/flies. Also the contagion table can also just stop thralls piling in. 

 

Conclusions:

Now this may be a bit premature without the entire codex in front of us, and maybe dhom hain is something unbelievably juicy, but all in all, the new tome doesn't seem to elevate us to the same level as the SCE/nurgle books. Nothing we have can match dragons/fulminators, we still don't have reliable access to mortal wounds outside of morrsarr, everything got more expensive so incidental damage hurts even more, and our NET output didn't meaningfully increase. We also lost rerolls and tide reversals which is an enormous downgrade.

THAT BEING SAID, I am a huge fan of the new options available to us. There are absolutely some big picture builds that may become even more competitive with artefacts/command traits (plz keep cloud of midnight). I assume our magic will remain pretty poor since that seems to be a pretty consistent design decision for the deepkin. If not though, I'd love to get my Aspect of the Sea off the shelf. We will continue to bully stuff like kruleboyz and those people who take like 12 raptors, so should have no problem getting some pretty solid tournament results.

Reavers go brrrrt and thralls can be pretty deadly if the stars align. Plus I can take my beloved sharks as battleline and that's really all I ever wanted. Super juicing each tide is also just an incredibly cool mechanic so shout out to gw for that. Not everyone gets to be stormcast and deepkin are probably gonna be a pretty mid-skill floor/high skill ceiling army. The NPE is gonna be real with the shooting castle though, so I expect people are gonna rage at me about that if it ends up being super good and I can do something like: Eidolon, King, 8 sharks or 6 sharks/20 reavers. 

I'll be posting batreps here and on my fb page as usual so am looking forward to workshopping builds with y'all. 

[Siorra]

I don't want to shoot anyone down here, but shall we avoid over-analysing drips of information, the majority of which are rumours with little-to-no evidence to back them up, for another 24 hours until we can see what actual content is in the book? I get it's fun to speculate, but chalking up our fictional place in the meta seems a little bit... premature. 😅

I just want the units I've been painting the last months to still be usable, is that too much to ask?

[Rhetoric]

The Turn 3 Ritual as rumored seems so suspect.  5++ on Namarti?  That’s pretty lame, considering High Tide has some kind of strike first effect why would a 5++ on Thralls be necessary or even make sense?

 

 

[Derek]

7 hours ago, DocKeule said:

The will be reviews of the book going online on Youtube this Saturday. We will have at least an idea what the rules will look like.

But yes, right now I would not buy or sell anything.

I’d buy something or another so you can avoid the price bumps.   And while I like seeing book reviews sometimes it’s nice to crack that book and read the rules for yourself.  

[Kitsumy]

i dont know why some people seems upset if i post rumours ( only post rumours that im 99% sure are true) 

but it is ok. ill keep them for me and wont post them anymore.

 

btw last letdown rumour as goodbye. ur cloak of midnight is gone on tome haha

Edited March 4, 2022 by Kitsumy

[vinnyt]

meh, i don't think my takes are earth-shattering and I don't share the doom and gloom mentality regarding the changes.

I'm excited for the design space that's been opened up and think there are some strong lists waiting to be discovered. Nothing that I've seen has made me think our place in the meta has shifted much and I love the scoot-n-shoot style that seems to be promoted in the new book. 

[Liquidsteel]

You just need to learn to adapt. Look at Nurgle; lambasted as being a trash tier tome and what do you know, it's actually good.

People like Kitsumy can stay behind the curve and cry about things that may or may not be true.

Until you see the full book AND get some time to see how it works and how other armies respond to it, you won't really know where it lies.

[Kitsumy]

where do i said tome be trash? im sure actual builds and builds without namartis will be worse than now ( 99% sure), but namarti heavy list may be better than actual lists.

 

but people like me who like to play everything. would say that tome is worse than actual. people who only want to win with no care on spaming same mini 100 times may say it is a really nice tome.