Cities of Sigmar in AoS 3

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 hours ago, Unit1126PLL said:

So, uh, I know people are talking about how bad artillery was and everything. I made an Ironweld Arsenal list anyways, and I want some thoughts on it and the strategy for it. I play pretty casually but sometimes tournament practice strikes and I either don't get a game or must play competitively, so the list is somewhat dual-hatted. Anyways, here's the list, and thoughts after:

City is Greywater Fastness
LEADERS:
- Steam Tank with Commander (General) with the Drillmaster command traid
- Celestial Hurricanum with the Battlemage and the Steam Piston Plate Mail artefact (so I can get it to a 3+ save and convert it from a Steam Tank model)
- Lord Ordinator
- Cogsmith (Grand Battery)

BATTLELINE:
- One Steam Tank
- The Other Steam Tank
- Freeguild Guard with Shields and Swords, reinforced once (20 models)

ARTILLERY:
Cannon
Cannon
Cannon
Helstorm Volley Gun (Grand Battery)
Helstorm Volley Gun (Grand Battery)

The plan for the list is to have one fire support element (ordinator plus 3 cannons), one heavy maneuver element (3 stanks and the CH) and one slow but angry maneuver element (2 HVGs and a cogsmith supporting the 20 infantry).

The 2 HVGs will move up with the infantry, 3" at a time for each unit, cogsmith in the center. CH and steamtanks stay near by if feasible. The cannons and Ordinator are behind them all, possibly on an objective.

I know the list will get wrecked by drop armies (i.e. teleporters and the like) but in general the idea is to spit fire downrange and absorb charges on the infantry, using the Battalion and a command point to double-Unleash Hell with the Helstorm cannons. They *should* still be hitting on a 3+, even with Unleash, and rerolling 1s, if I've managed to keep the maneuver elements together. The Cogsmith also lets them roll 3d6 for their shots EACH much more fearlessly, thanks to the reroll of one of the dice.

In conclusion, everything in the list should hit on a 3+ in shooting, and furthermore everything wholly within 12" of the Steam Tank Commander's big base will be rerolling 1s as well. The cannons are 6 shots total of 3+/2+/-2/d6 from 35" away, which hopefully is enough gun to make up for the inefficiency of the artillery, and the Helstorm volley guns are great charge deterrents - or will certainly do a number if the enemy comes in anyways. The steam tanks are a hard nut to crack, and while there are big drawbacks for not being Monsters, there are also big benefits (since many enemy abilities key off of Monster).

Thoughts?

The only reason I say that artillery is bad so often is because I want it to be better. I also have an Ironweld-heavy list and want it to actually do work!

A few thought on your list:

Sadly, double Unleash Hell is banned. You can't get around the once-per-phase command limitation with battalion abilities. Given this, I don't know if the Grand Battery is a very good choice, considering that you could qualify for Command Entourage or Warlord if you skip it. You could pick up an extra artefact that way. You could take Arcane Tome on either the Steam Tank Commander or Hurricanum (in which case, the Commander can take the Steam-Piston Plate Mail). The extra cast on a +1 to cast wizard is pretty nice. The Hurricanum has some good warscroll spells you might occasionally want to cast in addition to Mystic Shield.

I don't 100% know if the Lord Ordinator is worth bringing. Having him with the cannons adds about 3 wounds worth of damage per shooting phase, best case. Considering that cannons have +1 to hit on their warscroll if you shoot at units of 5 or more models, he will frequently do nothing. At 130 points, he comes at a pretty steep price. You could get a whole extra shooting unit for that, or upgrade the Freeguild Guard into Handgunners. Or pick up a fast unit like a bunch of Outriders or a Gyrocopter.

Other than that, I think the city choice is worth considering. I get the desire to use Greywater because it's the best fit thematically (and you get an extra cannon), but both Tempest's Eye and Living City have good traits, too. Tempest's Eye gives you that turn 1 mobility and defense boost and run-and-shoot command ability, as well as the +1 to wound aura command trait. I find that the added mobility really helps get the Steam Tanks into position early, because they really want to go out there, charge stuff and tank hits. Living City offers ambushing, shooting phase movement and mini-heals (which are nice on 2+ save Steam Tanks), as well as that +1 to saves command trait.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Unit1126PLL]

I didn't know double Unleash Hell was banned; that kinda torpedoes one aspect of the list. Drat. How should I have known? Is it in the Core Rules and I just overlooked it? EDIT: found it! Core rules FAQ.

Other issues:

I don't like Arcane Tome with GWF. I am unconvinced their spells are good. The extra cast for the wizard is fine but I really do want to convert one from a steam tank, making the Steam Piston Plate Mail and it's 3+ a necessity imo.

The Lord Ordinator is there because the cannons aren't for anti-horde except in a pinch - they are Anti Big Stuff. I can't think of how CoS would take down Kragnos or some of the Greater Daemons or Dragons without cannons, and the Cannons need that 3+ to hit to be reliable, imo. Open for other anti-big-stuff ideas though, preferably within the Ironweld theme.

The reason I picked GWF is the buff to the Steam Tank's Steam Guns. 11" is way better than 8" and goes a long way to making the damage output viable. I have experimented with other cities, and my conclusions are:

- Tempest's Eye doesn't have much that helps steam tanks. 2+ save is nice, but it's only temporary and most first turn shenanigans are directed at my other units anyways, since steam tanks take a while to become threatening. The extra move helps that, but the 3" range from GWF is identical for bringing the Steam Guns online, except that it lasts all game.

- Living City I just can't get to work. The healing doesn't help (enemies rarely spread their damage out that I have a lot of damaged steam tanks), the Ambush I end up just bringing on near a hero because it needs support as very few of my units function well without lots of support from other units.

The last one I would consider is Anvilguard, for complex reasons (vitriolic spray can become my anti-big-stuff) but there are other issues.

For emphasis, the critical vulnerability of an ironweld (or even CoS in general) list that I have noticed is how to kill big things like Kragnos. The Ironweld Cannon is about the only tool I can think of, and needs the Lord Ordinator to be reliably improved against such a target.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Unit1126PLL

[Marcvs]

35 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

For emphasis, the critical vulnerability of an ironweld (or even CoS in general) list that I have noticed is how to kill big things like Kragnos. The Ironweld Cannon is about the only tool I can think of, and needs the Lord Ordinator to be reliably improved against such a target.

a cannon hitting on 3+ vs kragnos using all out defense does on average (ofc it's swingy because of the 1d6 dmg) 1.3 damage...

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I want to make it clear that I think all your list choices are really fair. Especially for semi-casual play. The following is just a different perspective, but I don't have a strong conviction that any of those changes would definitely improve the list.

 

39 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

I don't like Arcane Tome with GWF. I am unconvinced their spells are good. The extra cast for the wizard is fine but I really do want to convert one from a steam tank, making the Steam Piston Plate Mail and it's 3+ a necessity imo.

Personally, I like having a 2 cast, +1 wizard (or two 1 cast wizards if the Commander gets the tome), because it means a pretty good chance to get off Mystic Shield as well as a situational spell every round. I don't necessarily think the Greywater spells are worth building around, but having the option to cast Metamorphosis, Descending Ash Cloud, Choking Fumes, Comet of Cassadora or Chain Lighting as appropriate is pretty neat. None of those spells are work horses you want every round, but I think many of them have good ceilings if the particular situation they are good in comes up. Worst case, an attempt to cast Descending Ash Cloud for a -1 to hit is a pretty solid floor.

 

46 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

The Lord Ordinator is there because the cannons aren't for anti-horde except in a pinch - they are Anti Big Stuff. I can't think of how CoS would take down Kragnos or some of the Greater Daemons or Dragons without cannons, and the Cannons need that 3+ to hit to be reliable, imo. Open for other anti-big-stuff ideas though, preferably within the Ironweld theme.

Against a 2+ save, the Ordinator adds ~1.5 wounds to the average damage output of 3 cannons (4.38 vs. 5.83 wounds on average). Make of that what you will. I think it's iffy as an answer to big stuff.

As a comparison, Doralia ven Denst would add ~2.22 wounds per shooting phase against 2+ if the target is a WIZARD or DAEMON, comes with a 5+ ward, can destroy endless spells and is only 115 points (15 points cheaper).

 

56 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

The reason I picked GWF is the buff to the Steam Tank's Steam Guns. 11" is way better than 8" and goes a long way to making the damage output viable.

I personally value the 3" move higher because I find that Steam Tanks are not worth their points if they only bring their shooting damage into play. I think they only become interesting if you are also using their high wounds and save (preferably their melee profile and charge mortals, too). So personally, I like them to get into the thick of it quickly if possible. But I think this one is more or less down to preference.

1 hour ago, Unit1126PLL said:

For emphasis, the critical vulnerability of an ironweld (or even CoS in general) list that I have noticed is how to kill big things like Kragnos. The Ironweld Cannon is about the only tool I can think of, and needs the Lord Ordinator to be reliably improved against such a target.

Yeah, you're not wrong. If we stick to non-coalition units, at least. Otherwise, you quickly start just slapping a unit of 6 Longstrikes in your list, because it costs the same points as 3 cannons and does about double the damage on average against high saves.

But of course, at that point you migth as well replace the Steam Tanks with Fulminators and just go play Stormcast instead.

[Unit1126PLL]

So I guess the conclusion is that there is no CoS way to deal with big stuff, other than big tarpits (and even then, only where applicable).

That's disappointing.

Thanks @Marcvs and @Neil. I will swap out the cannons for more "stuff" and go from there.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

So I guess the conclusion is that there is no CoS way to deal with big stuff, other than big tarpits (and even then, only where applicable).

That's disappointing.

Thanks @Marcvs and @Neil. I will swap out the cannons for more "stuff" and go from there.

It's tricky, because if Stormcast allies didn't exist, I don't think that CoS would be absolutely lost against big stuff. CoS has access to some decent monsters, good shooting, elite infantry and mortal wounds. Between all of that, you can probably manage in most cases. It's just that the Stormcast warscrolls only very recently got their update and are very efficient as a result, more so than what CoS can do. The question just becomes, why am I jumping through all these hoops if I could just take a Stormcast unit and smash?

[Marcvs]

10 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

So I guess the conclusion is that there is no CoS way to deal with big stuff, other than big tarpits (and even then, only where applicable).

That's disappointing.

Thanks @Marcvs and @Neil. I will swap out the cannons for more "stuff" and go from there.

I don't think the category "big stuff" is the most effective to plan a list. Some big things are very tough, some hit hard, some are resitant vs mortal wounds, some aren't. For instance:

Kragnos is quite vulnerable to mortal wounds, so taking an extra hurricanum without wizard would be quite effective. 2 hurricanums shooting for 2 turns + a bit of screening might just deal with him.

Greant Unclean Ones are the toughest of greater daemons and are decently resistant to mortal wounds, but they only start with a 4+ save (and potentially a -1 to hit). Here 30 irondrakes+bridge+hurricanum(+all out attack to counter the -1 to hit) would do the trick, even more so if you squeeze in longbeards and/or an Inspired triumph. Similarly for mega gargants. Of course, this combo is always vulnerable to strong magic negation (Seraphon, Lumineth, Stormcast w knight incantors...)

[Unit1126PLL]

1 minute ago, Marcvs said:

I don't think the category "big stuff" is the most effective to plan a list. Some big things are very tough, some hit hard, some are resitant vs mortal wounds, some aren't. For instance:

Kragnos is quite vulnerable to mortal wounds, so taking an extra hurricanum without wizard would be quite effective. 2 hurricanums shooting for 2 turns + a bit of screening might just deal with him.

Greant Unclean Ones are the toughest of greater daemons and are decently resistant to mortal wounds, but they only start with a 4+ save (and potentially a -1 to hit). Here 30 irondrakes+bridge+hurricanum(+all out attack to counter the -1 to hit) would do the trick, even more so if you squeeze in longbeards and/or an Inspired triumph. Similarly for mega gargants. Of course, this combo is always vulnerable to strong magic negation (Seraphon, Lumineth, Stormcast w knight incantors...)

So when building a list, you don't plan for big stuff and just hope for the best?

[Marcvs]

2 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

So when building a list, you don't plan for big stuff and just hope for the best?

funnily enough, I just went to a team tournament and my role in the team (with my CoS list) was precisely to go against the big stuff

However, that was in a team environment and if you see the post, I was using the Four Horsemen (i.e. 4 fulminators) who can deal with more or less anything.

As for your question: it depends. If I am going to a solo tournament, I use Stormcast units (so far: dragons, fulminators, still have to test the impact of the Prime Hunters thing). If I am playing against my mates at the club I generally don't have any threat big enough to deal with a Kragnos/mega gargant but they aren't briging it, and if they do I just try to use movement (I generally play living city) to profit from the fact that the big thing can only be in one place.

[Unit1126PLL]

@Marcvs

If you didn't want to use Stormcast units but were playing in an environment where Kragnos, the Incarnate, and etc. were very common, what would you run?

[zilberfrid]

31 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

@Marcvs

If you didn't want to use Stormcast units but were playing in an environment where Kragnos, the Incarnate, and etc. were very common, what would you run?

Sentinels, Endrinriggers, Gunhaulers, basically stuff that can get you mortal wounds.

[Marcvs]

31 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

@Marcvs

If you didn't want to use Stormcast units but were playing in an environment where Kragnos, the Incarnate, and etc. were very common, what would you run?

Disclaimer: my experience in 3.0 is limited and I am sure there's much better players in this forum. So, this stuff is surely a lot of "well duh!".

That being said: the choice of not using Stormcast must be understood as a self-handicap in many cases, so my first suggestion would be to also take this into account when setting your expectations.

Once that is clear, I would pick a "core", either to do damage (the 30 irondrakes and friends) or to tank (a liberal amount of phoenix guards and an anointed), then add mobility (tree revs, shadowstalkers) to either screen the irondrakes after the bridge or to threaten back objectives/score Spearhead. I would also try as much as possible to build a 1-drop list, because both kragnos and the incarnate (or the gargants, or the GUOs) have a threat range and not many ways to go past screens, and plan to give them first turn. A hurricanum without wizard fits well inside the battle regiment and brings a lot just for the mortal wounds and the +1 to hit.

Another option against this kind of lists is to have mobile units which can apply damage to the rest of the army, such as a frigate+thunderers in Tempest's Eye, leaving the big stuff to choose between standing on the objectives and chasing your damage dealers.

Finally, I would build a clear "decision tree" for my battle tactics and make sure that my list can pursue an "optimal" plan made of 5 battle tactics which do not require to kill anything (an example for one of my games, as White Dwarf tactics are allowed around here: advance -> expansion -> banners -> spearhead -> conquer). In all the scenarios control 1/ control 2/ control more, scoring your battletactics already ensures that the final score will be pretty close.

[Trickflo]

In the aos app a sorceress can select spells from the lore of umbral spite in addition to the lore of the appropriate city, is this an error in the app or is there a rule that allows that?

[Jaskier]

1 hour ago, Trickflo said:

In the aos app a sorceress can select spells from the lore of umbral spite in addition to the lore of the appropriate city, is this an error in the app or is there a rule that allows that?

It's just an error, only Har Kuron wizards get to use that lore (which would preclude them from using other cities' lores and vice-versa.) 

[Trickflo]

That's what I thought just wanted to verify thanks.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

18 hours ago, Marcvs said:

Disclaimer: my experience in 3.0 is limited and I am sure there's much better players in this forum. So, this stuff is surely a lot of "well duh!".

That being said: the choice of not using Stormcast must be understood as a self-handicap in many cases, so my first suggestion would be to also take this into account when setting your expectations.

Once that is clear, I would pick a "core", either to do damage (the 30 irondrakes and friends) or to tank (a liberal amount of phoenix guards and an anointed), then add mobility (tree revs, shadowstalkers) to either screen the irondrakes after the bridge or to threaten back objectives/score Spearhead. I would also try as much as possible to build a 1-drop list, because both kragnos and the incarnate (or the gargants, or the GUOs) have a threat range and not many ways to go past screens, and plan to give them first turn. A hurricanum without wizard fits well inside the battle regiment and brings a lot just for the mortal wounds and the +1 to hit.

Another option against this kind of lists is to have mobile units which can apply damage to the rest of the army, such as a frigate+thunderers in Tempest's Eye, leaving the big stuff to choose between standing on the objectives and chasing your damage dealers.

Finally, I would build a clear "decision tree" for my battle tactics and make sure that my list can pursue an "optimal" plan made of 5 battle tactics which do not require to kill anything (an example for one of my games, as White Dwarf tactics are allowed around here: advance -> expansion -> banners -> spearhead -> conquer). In all the scenarios control 1/ control 2/ control more, scoring your battletactics already ensures that the final score will be pretty close.

I think you hit on the three big Cities lists that have been winning tournaments pretty well: Living City Stormcast, Phoenix Temple spam and Irondrakes. If we look at tournament results, we have to probably conclude that those are the best Cities lists.

A tier below that, though, I think there are a lot of other options that look pretty viable. At least in casual-competitive play. In no particular order: Har Kuron Morathi, Anvilgard Vitriolic Spray Gunline, Hammerhal Stormcast, Hallowheart Magic Spam...

There are probably some strategies that are outclassed, but not bad, too, like Lumineth in Settler's Gain. Same for certain units like Sisters of the Watch and Freeguild Greatswords.

There are a lot of unit in Cities, and because they are very similar that just means that a lot of them are outclassed. That goes for most of the monsters, Irondweld, Freeguild, Wanderers, Black Ark Coursairs and Dispossessed stuff.

[Ravinsild]

Army Faction: Cities of Sigmar
    - Army Type: Tempest’s Eye
    - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line

LEADER

Runelord (100)*
    - Prayers: Curse

Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (280)**
    - General
    - Command Traits: Hawk-eyed
    - Artefacts: Seerstone Amulet
    - Spells: Strike of Eagles

Runelord (100)**
    - General's Adjutant
    - Prayers: Heal

Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (200)**
    - Artefacts: Arcane Tome
    - Spells: Aura of Glory

BATTLELINE

Longbeards (105)*
    - Ancestral Weapon and Gromril Shield

Ironbreakers (115)*

Ironbreakers (115)*

ENDLESS SPELL

Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

OTHER

1 x Irondrakes (340)*
    - Grudgehammer Torpedo

1 x Evocators on Celestial Dracolines (560)**

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Battle Regiment

**Warlord

TOTAL POINTS: (1975/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

I have found over time playing against multiple armies over multiple games that Armies who get a say in every phase are more effective than those who don’t. My other army is Ironjawz and they have almost no protection versus spells and there’s little they can do against shooting for an example. 

I feel that armies who can sling mortal wounds with magic at range, shoot at range and then follow up in the fight phase to either tarpit or fight back, as an example Tzeentch, do very well all around. 

I came up with this list to answer that philosophy, especially after reading how terrible Artillery is now adays. I want to stick to a 99% dwarf theme and I have even purchased Scibor Miniatures Dwarves on Bears to proxy as the Evocators on Dracolines. 

Dwarves are slow but at least in Tempest Eye I believe the worst they are running is 9” (4” movement +3” first turn bonus, +2 to run rolls for musicians and city allegiance ability) which helps a little bit in addition to an additional +1 to save in my territory should I go second versus another shooting list. 

I have two wizards which provide incredible support via Aura of Glory, and their own Warscroll abilities such as +1 to claw attacks and +1 to hit rolls in addition to being able to dish out mortal wounds round after round. 

I’ve got a decent shooting element with the Celestial Hurricanum and Irondrakes plus pot shots on my Ironbreakers. 

The Evocators make up for the speed my Dwarves lack as well as the heavy melee element. 

My list can cast magic, deny magic, buff heavily, shoot and fight. I think this is the best list I can make with almost pure dispossessed. Thoughts? 

 

[Lord Krungharr]

I just picked up a trio of Celestar Ballistas with a Lord Ordinator for cheap.  I think I can fit 2 Ballistas and the LordO into a Cities army even though I'll need 12 units to do so.  If I run a Hurricanum too, is it better to march the LordO up with my Gyrocopters and Steam Tank?  Or is it better to keep him back with the Ballistas and move up the Hurricanum instead?    Don't want to flub my first game with those when I play next time.  And then what city might be best?  I'll have bunches of various Dwarves for bodies.

[NauticalSoup]

8 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I just picked up a trio of Celestar Ballistas with a Lord Ordinator for cheap.  I think I can fit 2 Ballistas and the LordO into a Cities army even though I'll need 12 units to do so.  If I run a Hurricanum too, is it better to march the LordO up with my Gyrocopters and Steam Tank?  Or is it better to keep him back with the Ballistas and move up the Hurricanum instead?    Don't want to flub my first game with those when I play next time.  And then what city might be best?  I'll have bunches of various Dwarves for bodies.

Oof this is going to be rough, but I straight up don't think CBs work in Cities.

So the Lord Ordinator is a downgrade versus just spending those points on another ballista (if he's being used just with them). 3 ballistas and 1 Ordy == 4 ballistas in damage output. 4 ballistas + Ordy naturally pulls ahead, if you go under 3 you're better off just not buying the Ordy and buying more ballistas instead. So basically if you invest in an Ordy, you probably ought to combo him with as much of your CoS warmachines as possible. I haven't done the math but he needs to be buffing a lot of units before you break even on cost.

The next issue is that CBs, besides being relatively ineffective just in general, really only perform with their close range profile (especially when buffs are involved). What this means is that in Cities you now need a way to get them up in the enemy's face since you don't have your stormcast teleport. Means probably living city or tempest eye.

Honestly weak as they are I'd rather use the Ordy to buff exclusively CoS warmachines. CBs just aren't in a good place atm even by the low standards of artillery.

[Ravinsild]

Do Cities of Sigmar have a big monster beat stick hero like a Megaboss on Maw-Krusha? One of my favorite things about my Ironjawz is having such a powerful centerpiece character to build my army around. I love the model and the way it plays and I’m itching for one in Cities.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Do Cities of Sigmar have a big monster beat stick hero like a Megaboss on Maw-Krusha? One of my favorite things about my Ironjawz is having such a powerful centerpiece character to build my army around. I love the model and the way it plays and I’m itching for one in Cities.

Nothing on the same level as a Mawkrusha. I think the best native Cities monsters are the Phoenixes, particularly the frost phoenix, but that's a defensive piece. The Freeguild General on Griffon can be souped up to be quite fighty and recently got that nice "teleport out of combat instead of dying" mount trait in White Dwarf.I

It might be worth looking at the Stormcast roster, though, because Cities still has the good coalition rules where they gain all the Cities allegiance abilities. The big dragons might be fun to run. I know people also like the Celestant Prime in Hammerhal where he gets to fight twice.

[readercolin]

17 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Do Cities of Sigmar have a big monster beat stick hero like a Megaboss on Maw-Krusha? One of my favorite things about my Ironjawz is having such a powerful centerpiece character to build my army around. I love the model and the way it plays and I’m itching for one in Cities.

From the cities themselves, the only real monster hero's are the Freeguild General on Griffon, the Dreadlord on Black Dragon, and the Annointed on Phoenix.  Of those 3, the Freeguild General is likely the killiest... and this isn't exactly saying much.  The Dreadlord on Black dragon can be very killy, but it can also whiff and do exactly nothing (the most common case in my experience).  Finally, the Annointed on Frostheart Phoenix is a good, durable support piece, but it isn't really something that you can just chuck in and let it go to town like the Maw Krusha.  Finally, the Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix... yeah, the less that is said on that, the better.

However, all is not lost.  Why?  Because we still have Coalition and Allied monsters to draw from.  Do keep in mind though that all the coalition units can benefit from allegience abilities and artefacts, but none can be your general.  Your allies have to stand on the weight of their own warscroll though.

Almost every city gets stormcast coalition, and there are a few good stormcast combat monsters.  First off, you have Krondys and Karazai, both of which are probably a little overcosted for what they do, but can be solid centerpieces in your cities army.  Celestant Prime remains a hammer from the heavens, and arguably is stronger in the Cities than in stormcast itself.  After that... things drop off pretty hard, and the only other combat monster I would consider bringing would be a Knight-Draconis, as he is a solid artefact carrier and a reasonably tanky and killy hero.  However, if you want to feel really spicy, you can consider bringing bastion.

After stormcast, Cities still have a number of coalition options, but these will all lock you into a single city.

The first city to consider is Har Kuron, which restricts you to basically the old Dark Elf lineup (and also no stormcast coalition), but you get Daughters of Khaine as coalition.  The relevant unit here?  Morathi.  So if you liked the old dark elves, but still want an excuse to run morathi, then you can try this city out.

Next up, Tempest Eye.  Here, you get coalition Kharadron Overlords, which don't really have combat monsters in the same way that the maw krusha is, but you still can get a fabulous centerpiece in the Ironclad.

For the next city, we can look at the living city and their coalition Sylvaneth.  Now, there are only really 3 units to consider from the sylvaneth, and if we are being honest... none of them is particularly great outside of Sylvaneth.  First is the Spirit of Durthu, who is an excelent combat monster, but gets betrayed by the fact that the Living City doesn't really get wyldwoods, and he has to be near them to get +2 attacks for his 6 damage sword.  Second is Drycha, and probably the best choice of monster as she can still do most of her work without any sylvaneth dependencies, but she is still only a 300ish point monster.  Finally, you get Alarielle.  Alarielle is a solid monster, but without other sylvaneth to buff, she is likely not going to be worth the 740 points (or whatever she is currently at) to try to run her.

Moving on, we get Settlers Gain, which lets you bring Lumineth.  Now, lumineth isn't exactly known of for being combat monsters, and settlers gain allegience abilities are honestly kind of trash.  However, if you want to run Teclis but don't want to have to paint a whole fiddly army of Lumineth, you can do so here, or you can run one of their Cow Mountains.

Finally, we move on from coalition units and get to allies.  Here, there are only really 4 allies of note to consider.

Firstly, you have Gotrek.  If you have somehow gotten this far without ever coming across the ginger ninja, just know that he is quite possibly the killiest individual unit in the entire game.  He gets 6 attacks at 3+/3+/-2/3... but he also gets to re-roll all hit and wound rolls, and any 6's to hit result in d6 mortal wounds in addition.  In case that wasn't enough, he also gets to fight a second time at the end of the combat phase if he is still near an enemy unit.  But, you may then be wondering how anyone would let him survive that long... to which I say he is utter BS.  Yes, he only has a 4+ save and 8 wounds, but he also reduces all damage dealt to him by a single attack/ability/whatever to 1, AND he has a 3+ ward on top of that.  The only reason why Gotrek isn't literally everywhere is that he is only a 4" move unit, so getting all that killing power to a target is the hardest part of running him.

Next up, and definitely failing to live up to the ginger ninja's raw killing power, you get Bundo Whalebiter.  As a megagargant, bundo is a solid mountain of wounds, with a reasonable attack profile as well.  Personally, I'm not a fan of megagargants, but if you are, then he is a solid consideration.

More recently, we now can run the Incarnate as an ally.  The incarnate is a solid monster hunter (just ignore anything it says about endless spells), and also has the advantage of not dying/going down a level until the battleshock phase, meaning you can just throw it into stuff and then not worry too much.

Finally, there is one unit that is potentially worth considering as an ally that isn't in any potential coalition cities.  That is the Runefather on Magmadroth.  For 360 points, you get an ally with a 4+ save, 16 wounds, and ~13 damage before saves.  Sadly, he can't benefit from any allegience abilities, but he can still give himself an extra attack on all his profiles once per game, and if someone comes after him in melee, he can blead on them for extra mortal wounds.

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In conclusion, the best "combat monsters" would probably be Krondys, Karazai, Gotrek, and the incarnate.  After that, there are a bunch of fun choices that you can choose from, but nothing that really stands out at the same level that a Maw Krusha does.

[Ravinsild]

7 hours ago, readercolin said:

From the cities themselves, the only real monster hero's are the Freeguild General on Griffon, the Dreadlord on Black Dragon, and the Annointed on Phoenix.  Of those 3, the Freeguild General is likely the killiest... and this isn't exactly saying much.  The Dreadlord on Black dragon can be very killy, but it can also whiff and do exactly nothing (the most common case in my experience).  Finally, the Annointed on Frostheart Phoenix is a good, durable support piece, but it isn't really something that you can just chuck in and let it go to town like the Maw Krusha.  Finally, the Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix... yeah, the less that is said on that, the better.

However, all is not lost.  Why?  Because we still have Coalition and Allied monsters to draw from.  Do keep in mind though that all the coalition units can benefit from allegience abilities and artefacts, but none can be your general.  Your allies have to stand on the weight of their own warscroll though.

Almost every city gets stormcast coalition, and there are a few good stormcast combat monsters.  First off, you have Krondys and Karazai, both of which are probably a little overcosted for what they do, but can be solid centerpieces in your cities army.  Celestant Prime remains a hammer from the heavens, and arguably is stronger in the Cities than in stormcast itself.  After that... things drop off pretty hard, and the only other combat monster I would consider bringing would be a Knight-Draconis, as he is a solid artefact carrier and a reasonably tanky and killy hero.  However, if you want to feel really spicy, you can consider bringing bastion.

After stormcast, Cities still have a number of coalition options, but these will all lock you into a single city.

The first city to consider is Har Kuron, which restricts you to basically the old Dark Elf lineup (and also no stormcast coalition), but you get Daughters of Khaine as coalition.  The relevant unit here?  Morathi.  So if you liked the old dark elves, but still want an excuse to run morathi, then you can try this city out.

Next up, Tempest Eye.  Here, you get coalition Kharadron Overlords, which don't really have combat monsters in the same way that the maw krusha is, but you still can get a fabulous centerpiece in the Ironclad.

For the next city, we can look at the living city and their coalition Sylvaneth.  Now, there are only really 3 units to consider from the sylvaneth, and if we are being honest... none of them is particularly great outside of Sylvaneth.  First is the Spirit of Durthu, who is an excelent combat monster, but gets betrayed by the fact that the Living City doesn't really get wyldwoods, and he has to be near them to get +2 attacks for his 6 damage sword.  Second is Drycha, and probably the best choice of monster as she can still do most of her work without any sylvaneth dependencies, but she is still only a 300ish point monster.  Finally, you get Alarielle.  Alarielle is a solid monster, but without other sylvaneth to buff, she is likely not going to be worth the 740 points (or whatever she is currently at) to try to run her.

Moving on, we get Settlers Gain, which lets you bring Lumineth.  Now, lumineth isn't exactly known of for being combat monsters, and settlers gain allegience abilities are honestly kind of trash.  However, if you want to run Teclis but don't want to have to paint a whole fiddly army of Lumineth, you can do so here, or you can run one of their Cow Mountains.

Finally, we move on from coalition units and get to allies.  Here, there are only really 4 allies of note to consider.

Firstly, you have Gotrek.  If you have somehow gotten this far without ever coming across the ginger ninja, just know that he is quite possibly the killiest individual unit in the entire game.  He gets 6 attacks at 3+/3+/-2/3... but he also gets to re-roll all hit and wound rolls, and any 6's to hit result in d6 mortal wounds in addition.  In case that wasn't enough, he also gets to fight a second time at the end of the combat phase if he is still near an enemy unit.  But, you may then be wondering how anyone would let him survive that long... to which I say he is utter BS.  Yes, he only has a 4+ save and 8 wounds, but he also reduces all damage dealt to him by a single attack/ability/whatever to 1, AND he has a 3+ ward on top of that.  The only reason why Gotrek isn't literally everywhere is that he is only a 4" move unit, so getting all that killing power to a target is the hardest part of running him.

Next up, and definitely failing to live up to the ginger ninja's raw killing power, you get Bundo Whalebiter.  As a megagargant, bundo is a solid mountain of wounds, with a reasonable attack profile as well.  Personally, I'm not a fan of megagargants, but if you are, then he is a solid consideration.

More recently, we now can run the Incarnate as an ally.  The incarnate is a solid monster hunter (just ignore anything it says about endless spells), and also has the advantage of not dying/going down a level until the battleshock phase, meaning you can just throw it into stuff and then not worry too much.

Finally, there is one unit that is potentially worth considering as an ally that isn't in any potential coalition cities.  That is the Runefather on Magmadroth.  For 360 points, you get an ally with a 4+ save, 16 wounds, and ~13 damage before saves.  Sadly, he can't benefit from any allegience abilities, but he can still give himself an extra attack on all his profiles once per game, and if someone comes after him in melee, he can blead on them for extra mortal wounds.

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In conclusion, the best "combat monsters" would probably be Krondys, Karazai, Gotrek, and the incarnate.  After that, there are a bunch of fun choices that you can choose from, but nothing that really stands out at the same level that a Maw Krusha does.

Do you think Stardrakes are worth it all? Either version? 

[Jaskier]

8 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Do you think Stardrakes are worth it all? Either version? 

Having used one both pre and post Amulet of Destiny nerf, I'd lean towards them not being the most efficient choice. At 500 points (I'd always go with the Lord for the base 3+ save) they are just too expensive for what they do, especially given how anemic their damage is. They aren't terrible or anything, they're just in the same boat as Krondys/Karazai in being probably a good 50-100 points undercosted. Comparing it to something like a Maw-Krusha or Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon feels pretty bad. I'd much rather take the Knight Draconis over one at the current points, especially so if you use any Stormdrake Guard. 

[readercolin]

10 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Do you think Stardrakes are worth it all? Either version? 

No.  A lord celestant on stardrake dishes about 10 damage in melee before buffs.  This is for a 500 point monster.  He can kind of make up for this by picking off individual models on pile in, but I've never had one kill equal to its points value in a game that I've played with it.  And to be clear, I've used a lot of excuses to field one.