Cities of Sigmar in AoS 3

[TheGrimKnight]

30 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

Another question about those legend units. The Swifthawk Chariots have Charioteers bow with a range of 2" and damage 2. What would be the correct profile for those bows?

since you have to make sure your opponent is ok with them anyways, (and if it's a friend group/regulars shouldnt be hard to chat with.) I'd use the bow profile from the swifthawk skycutters. 

I'd use this profile- Swifthawk bows- 16", 3 attacks, 4+,4+ 1 damage. it's the profile from their scroll. they are both the same "faction" both manned by the same people and use the same weapons. so it makes the most sense

 

It really is weird they gave those scrolls an update but then didnt even check what they were doing. 

 

[Tonhel]

11 hours ago, TheGrimKnight said:

since you have to make sure your opponent is ok with them anyways, (and if it's a friend group/regulars shouldnt be hard to chat with.) I'd use the bow profile from the swifthawk skycutters. 

I'd use this profile- Swifthawk bows- 16", 3 attacks, 4+,4+ 1 damage. it's the profile from their scroll. they are both the same "faction" both manned by the same people and use the same weapons. so it makes the most sense

 

It really is weird they gave those scrolls an update but then didnt even check what they were doing. 

 

Aha, that seems the most plausible solutions! Thanks 🙂

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm about done with my Cities Airforce army collecting (using Tempests Eye): Frostheart Phoenix as the general with Arcane Tome and Hawk-eyed CT, 2 Gyrocopters, Grundstok Gunhauler and Ironclad, unit of 2 Stormdrake Guards, and 3x10 Longbeards for battleline. 

I feel like I need a good wizard, and preferably flying.  Is there a Stormcast wizard for 235 points that might fit the bill?  Or should I switch out the Longbeards in this list to 3x10 Freeguild Guard, using the spare points to net a Celestial Hurricanum with Mage?  The BattleMage on Griffon is appealing, though can't argue with the sheer awesomeness of the Hurricanum.  

Guess if I got the Guard instead of Longbeards it would look like this.  Seems pretty fun actually!  Could go Levitate on the Hurricanum too....the Phoenix will be using Mystic Shield on itself most of the time to negate some rend.  

Edited January 22, 2022 by Lord Krungharr

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I'm about done with my Cities Airforce army collecting (using Tempests Eye): Frostheart Phoenix as the general with Arcane Tome and Hawk-eyed CT, 2 Gyrocopters, Grundstok Gunhauler and Ironclad, unit of 2 Stormdrake Guards, and 3x10 Longbeards for battleline. 

I feel like I need a good wizard, and preferably flying.  Is there a Stormcast wizard for 235 points that might fit the bill?  Or should I switch out the Longbeards in this list to 3x10 Freeguild Guard, using the spare points to net a Celestial Hurricanum with Mage?  The BattleMage on Griffon is appealing, though can't argue with the sheer awesomeness of the Hurricanum.  

Guess if I got the Guard instead of Longbeards it would look like this.  Seems pretty fun actually!  Could go Levitate on the Hurricanum too....the Phoenix will be using Mystic Shield on itself most of the time to negate some rend.  

You could use a lord arcanum on Tauralon for (going by memory) 285pts

[Lord Krungharr]

That's a great idea!  Still provides a +1 to hit buff to friendly Cities units within 3" after it moves too, and decent in combat if needed (plus the Monster stuff).

[Maturin]

Hey guys,

Do we have access to a reroll one to hit in CoS now that the Knight Azyros doesn't do it anymore?

[readercolin]

2 hours ago, Maturin said:

Hey guys,

Do we have access to a reroll one to hit in CoS now that the Knight Azyros doesn't do it anymore?

We do... ish.  The only source that I am aware of is "Drillmaster" in greywater fastness that gives a bubble around your general of re-roll 1's to hit with missile weapons.  I believe that the Hellstorm Rocket Battery also gets re-roll 1's to hit if near an engineer.  That being said, I believe those are the only sources left in the Cities that will affect all Cities units.

For Coalition, I believe that the Arkanaught Admiral has one for KO units, and the Arch-Revenant has one for Kurnoth Hunters.  I am not aware of any other re-roll abilities beyond that though.

[Maturin]

Cheers @readercolin. I've played a 1500pts game this afternoon against a Blood of Khorne army. At the end of the first turn, the game was decided in my favor.

My 4 fulminators infiltrated wiped out 21 bloodletters, damaged his bloodthirster which was finished off by the anointed on Flamespyre on the left flank, my 2*3 demigryph tanked his 6 juggernauts and khorne doggies on the right flank, then killed doggies + 3  juggs (accompanied by the huricanum) but I feel the fulmi on charge even if they hit like a truck, can be pretty swingy (dice usually aren't in my favors).

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Maturin

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

This list apparently did quite well at LVO:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
– City: Phoenicium
– Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
– Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)*
– General
– Command Trait: One with Fire and Ice – Golden Mist
– Artefact: Phoenix Pyre Ashes
Assassin (80)*
Assassin (80)*
Assassin (80)**
Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (280)
– Lore of the Phoenix: Golden Mist
Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)*
– Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
– Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)***
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)***
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)***
10 x Shadow Warriors (120)**
10 x Shadow Warriors (120)**
1 x Scourgerunner Chariots (80)*
*Warlord
**Vanguard
***Hunters of the Heartlands
Artefact

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
Drops: 12

It's been a while since I have seen a Phoenicium list anywhere, much less one with three Assassins in it! Kinda makes me want to go over all the different cities with a fresh mind again to see if there are any more hidden gems.

[NauticalSoup]

40 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

This list apparently did quite well at LVO:

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
– City: Phoenicium
– Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
– Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)*
– General
– Command Trait: One with Fire and Ice – Golden Mist
– Artefact: Phoenix Pyre Ashes
Assassin (80)*
Assassin (80)*
Assassin (80)**
Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (280)
– Lore of the Phoenix: Golden Mist
Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)*
– Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
– Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)***
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)***
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)***
10 x Shadow Warriors (120)**
10 x Shadow Warriors (120)**
1 x Scourgerunner Chariots (80)*
*Warlord
**Vanguard
***Hunters of the Heartlands
Artefact

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
Drops: 12

It's been a while since I have seen a Phoenicium list anywhere, much less one with three Assassins in it! Kinda makes me want to go over all the different cities with a fresh mind again to see if there are any more hidden gems.

I genuinely forgot what their battle traits did and had to look them up.

This actually seems pretty cute - I assume the game plan with the assassins and MSUs is to really take advantage of the battle trait by feeding them into the grinder turn after turn or just forcing the opponent to eat the damage. I would consider playing something like this!

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

7 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

I genuinely forgot what their battle traits did and had to look them up.

This actually seems pretty cute - I assume the game plan with the assassins and MSUs is to really take advantage of the battle trait by feeding them into the grinder turn after turn or just forcing the opponent to eat the damage. I would consider playing something like this!

The list definitely seems to be set up to take maximum advantage of those battle traits and the Phoenix Temple units. A lot better than other lists I have seen that play around with stuff like Flagellants. The Assassins are really a great call.

It's easy to forget how good Phoenix Guard still are. And right now, in the MSU meta, a unit of 10 is even decent at playing the capture game. A list built around just Phoenix guard and Anointed on Phoenix is actually super solid.

[NauticalSoup]

25 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The list definitely seems to be set up to take maximum advantage of those battle traits and the Phoenix Temple units. A lot better than other lists I have seen that play around with stuff like Flagellants. The Assassins are really a great call.

It's easy to forget how good Phoenix Guard still are. And right now, in the MSU meta, a unit of 10 is even decent at playing the capture game. A list built around just Phoenix guard and Anointed on Phoenix is actually super solid.

Yep if not the two best units in the book it's very close, so as far as build-arounds go that isn't bad at all.

[Lord Krungharr]

If I didn't hate their skinny spindly weapon shafts and assembling them, I'd have 3 big units of Phoenix Guard.  I prefer the stout sturdy hammers, picks and axes of the bearded mountain folk, which barely reach anything.

[zilberfrid]

8 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

If I didn't hate their skinny spindly weapon shafts and assembling them, I'd have 3 big units of Phoenix Guard.  I prefer the stout sturdy hammers, picks and axes of the bearded mountain folk, which barely reach anything.

Simply put the dwarves on stilts and glue on some triangles to the heads and arrogance to their face, and you're golden.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

19 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

If I didn't hate their skinny spindly weapon shafts and assembling them, I'd have 3 big units of Phoenix Guard.  I prefer the stout sturdy hammers, picks and axes of the bearded mountain folk, which barely reach anything.

I have a bunch of metal Phoenix Guard still kicking around. With their bendy metal halberds they really are a nightmare. For me, proxying Swordmasters of Hoeth is the way to go. I think they look cooler, anyway.

[Lord Krungharr]

Ah yes, I should look at the old Fantasy high aelves; the 'current' Phoenix Guard kit is still old anyways.  That might be the ticket.  I like to magnetize the models for transport, but too many breakages even with weaker magnets have soured me on fantastic yet delicate models.  So many of the newer kits are like that too.

[Thugmullet]

So I have been looking through warscrolls lately putting a few army lists together. I was looking over the handgunners scroll again and in particular the stand and shoot rule. Now excuse me if this has come up before but I noticed an angle I Havnt paid attention to. In particular it's the "if an enemy unit finishes a charge move within 3", this unit can recieve the unleash hell command " and so on. Iv been playing against orricks lately and there ability to charge out of phase has been a pain. Now this is the interesting part. Unleash hell can by the rules only be used in the charge phase. Warscrolls abilities however are used as rules modifiers and overule core rules. The stand and shoot ability only requires a unit to finish a charge move within 3". It then says you can use the unleash hell command. It does NOT say however that it must be in the charge phase. I also checked out the command ability in the core rules. While the core rules say that these are command abilities to be used in the charge phase, the wording of the actual command does NOT specify a limit to phase use. So the way I read this  is that stand and shoot will allow unleash hell to be used in any phase that a charge move finishes within 3" of this unit.

 

What's people's thoughts on this?

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Thugmullet

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Thugmullet said:

So I have been looking through warscrolls lately putting a few army lists together. I was looking over the handgunners scroll again and in particular the stand and shoot rule. Now excuse me if this has come up before but I noticed an angle I Havnt paid attention to. In particular it's the "if an enemy unit finishes a charge move within 3", this unit can recieve the unleash hell command " and so on. Iv been playing against orricks lately and there ability to charge out of phase has been a pain. Now this is the interesting part. Unleash hell can by the rules only be used in the charge phase. Warscrolls abilities however are used as rules modifiers and overule core rules. The stand and shoot ability only requires a unit to finish a charge move within 3". It then says you can use the unleash hell command. It does NOT say however that it must be in the charge phase. I also checked out the command ability in the core rules. While the core rules say that these are command abilities to be used in the charge phase, the wording of the actual command does NOT specify a limit to phase use. So the way I read this  is that stand and shoot will allow unleash hell to be used in any phase that a charge move finishes within 3" of this unit.

 

What's people's thoughts on this?

Considering GW took the worst interpretation of the previous wording, they probably don't want it to do anything and just remove Handgunners, but the wording doesn't seem to prevent it.

[NauticalSoup]

The condition to use the ability is the same as the condition to use unleash hell normally just slightly truncated probably because they didn't want to reprint the entire rule. It specifically overrides two things, the 'command being issued' and the 'a command point being spent'. The fact that they left off the timing doesn't really entitle you to assume it no longer exists. Just like how all the other rules surrounding command abilities except the two they specifically called out continue to apply.

Edited February 5, 2022 by NauticalSoup

[zilberfrid]

5 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

The condition to use the ability is the same as the condition to use unleash hell normally just slightly truncated probably because they didn't want to reprint the entire rule. It specifically overrides two things, the 'command being issued' and the 'a command point being spent'. The fact that they left off the timing doesn't really entitle you to assume it no longer exists. Just like how all the other rules surrounding command abilities except the two they specifically called out continue to apply.

But that's not what it states. The restriction of phase seems to be overwritten by the Handgunner's condition.

[Thugmullet]

12 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

The condition to use the ability is the same as the condition to use unleash hell normally just slightly truncated probably because they didn't want to reprint the entire rule. It specifically overrides two things, the 'command being issued' and the 'a command point being spent'. The fact that they left off the timing doesn't really entitle you to assume it no longer exists. Just like how all the other rules surrounding command abilities except the two they specifically called out continue to apply.

I'm not convinced at this point. Stand and shoot and unleash hell are not the same thing. One is a warscroll ability and one is a command ability. The warscroll ability links to the command ability. They are two seperate entities. The restriction on unleash hell is not in the command ability. It's in the rules. The rules show the path of restriction for using the command ability unleash hell. The warscroll ability shows a different path to reach the use of the command ability that does not share the same restrictions because it does state when unleash hell can be used, what it does not do is state when it can't be used. I think there's an argument that this allows its use out side of phase. I do see your point however. It's deffinately not as clear cut as I thought it was. I'll now need more consideration on my initial thoughts and prob wouldn't use it if it's iffy.

[NauticalSoup]

I mean if you want to get that technical with the wording, the handgunner ability merely lets you 'receive' the command (a sub-component of using a command ability) - it doesn't actually let you 'use' it, which is the term that actually pulls the trigger and sets off the whole sequence of programmatic logic allowing a command ability to do something in the game. So for the ability to do anything you still need to reference all the command ability core rules that are omitted, which necessarily should include the strict limitation that you can't 'use' Unleash Hell outside of the charge phase.

If it was meant to bypass phasing it would indicate as much since CAs were deliberately designed to be phase locked.

It's also worth noting that this language is identical to the language on battalion bonuses that say you can receive it without the command being issued without a command point being spent. In fact the literal only thing that separates them is that the handgunner warscroll ability has one additional restriction about when it can be applied, and reading that restriction as suddenly letting you bypass all the other CA mechanics is the sort of thing that instantly breaks a huge swath of the game. Like imagine reading Slayers and saying "Well I've satisfied the condition 'once per battle' so I'm going to use unleash hell out of phase" because it doesn't restate all the core rules telling me I can't.

Come on now.

Edit: another example of how we KNOW handgunners have to use unleash hell as per the core rules: the identically worded battalion bonuses and similar that net you a freebie don't let you use the command ability more times than the game natively allows in a phase - once. Because even though none of those abilities tell you you're 'using' a command ability, that's exactly what you have to do to benefit from them, and as a result all the restrictions on when you can use any such ability still apply because they weren't mentioned and therefore weren't contradicted. If you really think what you're describing is allowed I encourage you to post it in the rules section and you'll get more explanations probably all saying the same thing.

Edited February 6, 2022 by NauticalSoup

[Thugmullet]

42 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

I mean if you want to get that technical with the wording, the handgunner ability merely lets you 'receive' the command (a sub-component of using a command ability) - it doesn't actually let you 'use' it, which is the term that actually pulls the trigger and sets off the whole sequence of programmatic logic allowing a command ability to do something in the game. So for the ability to do anything you still need to reference all the command ability core rules that are omitted, which necessarily should include the strict limitation that you can't 'use' Unleash Hell outside of the charge phase.

If it was meant to bypass phasing it would indicate as much since CAs were deliberately designed to be phase locked.

It's also worth noting that this language is identical to the language on battalion bonuses that say you can receive it without the command being issued without a command point being spent. In fact the literal only thing that separates them is that the handgunner warscroll ability has one additional restriction about when it can be applied, and reading that restriction as suddenly letting you bypass all the other CA mechanics is the sort of thing that instantly breaks a huge swath of the game. Like imagine reading Slayers and saying "Well I've satisfied the condition 'once per battle' so I'm going to use unleash hell out of phase" because it doesn't restate all the core rules telling me I can't.

Come on now.

I'm not going to use it in the way I indicated. Im not arguing language or symatics, I think it's very strait forward rule replacement. Happens with every warscroll in AOS, I don't see why this is different.           Having said that, I asked this question as I wanted to gauge what the general reaction would be. Your push back indicates to me others would find this rule use to be a bending of the rules and that no one else has jumped on to interseed indicates to me your not alone. I certainly don't won't to be that guy playing on the other side of the table looking like an idiot. We play to roll some dice and have some fun. Keeping that sense with my apponant is much more important to me than getting an advantage others would think I shouldn't.

I appreciate your feedback. It's answered my real question about how this rule use would be perceived and right or wrong I think you've shown it would be frowned at and thus best avoided.

So I'm going to drop this, move on and use the rule as we have been previously.

Cheeers.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Thugmullet

[NauticalSoup]

@Thugmullet No worries mate. I may have come in too hot but I've had so many handgunner/SOTW debates and I'm sort of sick of it - it's an unintuitive mess ripe for these types of rules disagreements while also just serving to kneecap those units unnecessarily.

Hopefully we can get it reverted someday. Or they become a lot cheaper.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

The Handgunners are really the gift that keeps on giving in terms of rules discussion.

For what it's worth, I don't think them having the ability to Unleash Hell out of phase with their special rule would be game breaking. It would probably not even be enough to make you take them over Crossbowmen. In general I don't think the reasoning that they should get to Unleash Hell on any charge, regardless of phase, is bad. But then again, I also thought they Handgunners should be able to Unleash Hell multiple times per phase, and GW eventually shut that down.

It's hard to determine intent in this case, and the rules as written are ambiguous. I would not have a problem allowing the more powerful version of the rule for friendly games, myself. But you probably should not assume that it's uncontroversial.