Cities of Sigmar in AoS 3

[Kirby]

On 9/19/2021 at 6:58 AM, swarmofseals said:

This brings me to what I think is probably the best home for Drakespawn Knights: Tempest Eye. In Tempest Eye the extra +3" of move means that you can reliably block objectives on turn 1 with these guys and they get a 2+ save on the first turn which will really delay your opponent in shifting them.

Its never going to be a tournament winning city, but units of 10 Drakespawn Knights would be very effective in misthavn.  Just drop them where they need to go.  


Now a question,

Which units offers offer most MW output specifically in Hallowheart?   My lists are being brutalised by ultra buffed Graveguard.  Under ideal conditions they put out 10 attacks per model (2+/3+/r-1/D2).  Also their save isn't too shabby (4+ with AOD, 6++ rr1)

So far, Im thinking a Sorceress on Dragon casting Bladewind and Elemental Cyclone.   Any other units or abilities come to mind?    

[Arathorn185]

But the raw doesn’t state adjuncts require to be CoS just part of your army?

[readercolin]

5 hours ago, Kirby said:

Which units offers offer most MW output specifically in Hallowheart?   My lists are being brutalised by ultra buffed Graveguard.  Under ideal conditions they put out 10 attacks per model (2+/3+/r-1/D2).  Also their save isn't too shabby (4+ with AOD, 6++ rr1)

So far, Im thinking a Sorceress on Dragon casting Bladewind and Elemental Cyclone.   Any other units or abilities come to mind?    

Best Mortal Wound generators.

Elemental Cyclone gives you an average of 1 mortal wound for every 2 models in the unit, and is one of the stronger offensive options.  For best effect, shove it through a spellportal, as otherwise the 12" range might fall a little short.

Warding Brand is a "defensive" option, but you can throw it on a trash unit and run it into their graveguard.  Each time they take a wound, on a 4+ they reflect it back.  The upside of this is that the graveguard HAVE to attack in melee, so they have a good chance of taking a good bit of damage back.  The downside is that whatever unit you do this to is going to be very thoroughly blended afterwards.

Celestial Hurricanum.  In addition to casting either of the above spells, the Hurricanum will also be able to deal 3d3 mortals in the shooting phase with the Storm of Shemtek, and also has Chain Lightning to deal d3 (with possible d3 to other units... basically he can have 2 roaming wildfires), and the comet has a pretty decent chance of dealing d6 to a unit of graveguard, but will always be able to do at least d3.

The Battlemage on foot can bring Chain Lighting like the hurricanum, but the more important spell here is Fireball (available to battlemages from Aqshy), which is going to deal d6 mortal wounds to units of 10+.

The Sorceress on Dragon can deal an average of 4.5 with bladewind to a unit of graveguard.  She can deal about 7.5 to a unit of zombies, but then is going to be very sad with her 1.5 mortals to a buffed up vampire lord.

Additionally, don't forget to consider the endless spells.  Aethervoid Pendulum will deal d3 mortals to any unit that it passes over.  Gemenids will deal a mortal wounds to models that it passes over, and will also prevent command abilities from being used.  Purple sun can deal d3 to d6 mortals and roam around some.  Quicksilver Swords will deal an average of 2, but ignores ward saves.  Ravenaks Gnashing Jaws will deal mortals on 6's for 3d6 dice (which is also its move characteristic).  Suffocating Gravetide rolls a die for each model in the unit and deals a mortal on a 6.

-----------------

Taking a look at the Stormcast wizards and priests, the best that any of them can do is d3 mortal wounds.  Their spells are surprisingly uninspiring (and yes, this was all the new warscrolls).  If you are looking for pure damage, you would do better to consider bringing some Stormdrake Guard or Dracothian Guard units, which are going to be able to deal some ranged mortals and then still mix it up pretty good in melee afterwards.  Finally, don't forget to consider a reinforced unit of Vanguard Raptors, which can deal an average of 12.33 damage to a squad of graveguard without any buffs, or 15 if they get a +1 from somewhere.

----------------

Next, Cities units, and their damage without spells..  A squad of 10 greatswords that have a +1 to hit (from all out attack, being near a hurricanum, or being near a freeguild general) can expect to deal an average of 11 damage to graveguard if they can attack first, or 22 if you get a squad of 20 of them.  If your opponent is stacking +1's to save, this is still an expected 9 damage with a squad of 10 or 18 with a squad of 20.

Sisters of the Watch still remain good as a way to spit out some mortals, and can do so without having to mix it up in melee.  180 points per 10 is a bit rough though.

An Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix is an interesting option to consider as well (or just a flamespyre phoenix if you are a little crazy).  They kind of suck for their points in melee, and have been nerfed in that they only deal mortal wounds on a "normal" move, which means they can no longer do their wake of fire on a run, retreat, or charge.  But unwounded, they can deal 5 mortals on a 2+ just by flying over an enemy unit.  However, you can give one the arcane tome and then 2 Hallowheart spells to have a very durable mortal wound platform.

Gyrobombers can add to the mortal wound collection, dealing d3 mortals on a 2+ per bomber that flies overhead.  Gyrocopters can also do that once per game, but you can bring a brimstone gun to chew through hordes of zombies as well.

Finally, you can also get mortals from Hammerers and Executioners in combat.  Drakespawn Chariots can deal d3 mortals on the charge, and Scourgerunner Chariots have the chance to deal d3 mortals from their harpoon attacks.

-----------------

Finally, Allies.

From Daughters of Khaine, you can bring bow snakes.  Is a squad of 10 of them dealing a mortal on 6's to hit worth it?  Ehh... possibly not, but it is there as an option.

Sylvaneth Allies allow you to bring Drycha, who is a caster who can also deal mortals both in melee and at range.  She wouldn't get the extra spell from Hallowheart though.  The warsong revenant is also an interesting option as a 2 cast wizard who can roll 7+ dice (whatever his casting value is) and deal mortals on a 5+ to each enemy unit within 9".  Extra points for throwing that through a spell portal.

From the Idoneth Deepkin, the turtle is an interesting option.  Its crushing jaws can deal 3 mortals on the attack if it gets a 6 to hit (6 to monsters), and starts with a base 2+ save.  This is in addition to everything else it can do - and you can get it to benefit from the d6 heal available from Hallowheart as well.

From Kharadron Overlords, you can bring a pair of Grundstock Gunhaulers, which with drill cannons can snipe from across the board.  Everything else is a bit more questionable compared to other cities options outside of tempest eye though.

Finally, Gotrek.  Gotrek gets d6 mortals in addition on 6's to hit, and can fish for 6's with his re-roll hits effect.  This is in addition to the normal damage that he can put out, the fact that he is extraordinarily tough, and the fact that he can fight twice in a turn.  The only downside to Gotrek is that he is kind of slow, but he can still get healed by Sear Wounds and can get a +2 to run/charge from the Ghur battlemage.

[Zeblasky]

Hell again, this is your friendly admirer of Sisters of the Watch and Dreadlord on the Black Dragon. Today I come to talk about the latter.

So, Dreadlord got some new draconic competition, and his name is Knigh-Drakonis. So, how do they fare against each other? Well, it's not looking great for Dreadlord.

First, basic stats and abilities. For the Dreadlord, we have:

• 14 move instead of 12
• 14 wounds instead of 11

And that's literally it. While Knight-Drakonis has:

• NO DEGRADING PROFILE WAT
• 3+ base save (much better for save stacking) instead of 4+ or 4+ add 1 from shield.
• 12 range shooting attack, for which you do not have to lose +1 to save if you want to play in Living City
• 4+ spell shrug
• Once per battle free shooting in hero phase for him or other Stormdrakes

 

Yea, it's not looking that great. Dreadlord can be quite tankier with Amulet of Destiny and even without his shield thanks to 3 more wounds (and with wards it does add up), but other things, especially actually being balanced by degrading profire, drag him down so, so much here. But hey, let's look at the damage, shall we?
 

Save	Knight-drake	Black Dragon	Drakes with Blades
2+	5.48	5.02	5.48
3+	7	7.03	7.63
4+	8.52	9.03	9.78
5+	9.11	11.04	11.93
6+	9.11	11.88	12.89
-	9.11	12.04	12.89

 

Black Dragon is modelled with Crossbow and Lance on charge, as usual. Stormdrakes ranged attacks though are not included, it's only combat damage for them. And yea, I included unit of 2 Stormdrakes with Blades (285 points), just to show that if you need a monstrous unit with 18 wounds and 3+ save that also looks amazing, has 2 ranged MW attacks (that's extra 3-4 MW on average) and does a lot of damage in combat phase, look no further. The only reason I look at Hero monsters is because Strormdrakes can't take Amulet of Destiny, hah.

So yea, at first it looks like Black Dragon does more damage versus low armour, hurray. But then you remember that Knight has a shooting attack that causes 1.8 MW on average. But then you remember that Black dragon has a shooting attack that causes MWs as well, but it has much shorter range and can do anything between 0.17 and 6 mortal wounds on average, depending on a target, so much more situational. Knight however can also somewhat reliably remove 1-3 wound models from play, and you can even try your luck at destroying 5 wound heroes, so that also adds up to his damage (although in a weird and hard to calculate way as a pure damage). So... overall, Dreadlord has a much better time when clearing out from tarpits with a lot of cheap bodies due to his breath attack and less rend, but Knight just has a much easier time achieving his max potential, especially versus high save targets. It pains me to say it, but Knight mostly wins in a damage department. Or, in short, Dreadlord is better versus big blocks of low armoured chaff, Knight is better versus elites and middle ground.

And THEN, at the end of it all, you remember that Black Dragon is 290, while Knight-Drakonis is 255. Yeeep. Honestly, why pay 35 points more for slighlty better tankiness (if you're taking his shield) and situationally better damage (and against hordes of all things), when Knight-Drakonis has so much more going for him AND he is quite cheaper as well? I hope that someone could show me that I am wrong, but for now, if you want a mobile and heavy hitting dragon in your min-maxed Living City army, take Knigh-Drakonis

P.S. I would expect some point nerfs to Stormdrakes in the future though. I hope.

 

 

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

Hell again, this is your friendly admirer of Sisters of the Watch and Dreadlord on the Black Dragon. Today I come to talk about the latter.

So, Dreadlord got some new draconic competition, and his name is Knigh-Drakonis. So, how do they fare against each other? Well, it's not looking great for Dreadlord.

First, basic stats and abilities. For the Dreadlord, we have:

• 14 move instead of 12
• 14 wounds instead of 11

And that's literally it. While Knight-Drakonis has:

• NO DEGRADING PROFILE WAT
• 3+ base save (much better for save stacking) instead of 4+ or 4+ add 1 from shield.
• 12 range shooting attack, for which you do not have to lose +1 to save if you want to play in Living City
• 4+ spell shrug
• Once per battle free shooting in hero phase for him or other Stormdrakes

 

Yea, it's not looking that great. Dreadlord can be quite tankier with Amulet of Destiny and even without his shield thanks to 3 more wounds (and with wards it does add up), but other things, especially actually being balanced by degrading profire, drag him down so, so much here. But hey, let's look at the damage, shall we?
 

Save	Knight-drake	Black Dragon	Drakes with Blades
2+	5.48	5.02	5.48
3+	7	7.03	7.63
4+	8.52	9.03	9.78
5+	9.11	11.04	11.93
6+	9.11	11.88	12.89
-	9.11	12.04	12.89

 

Black Dragon is modelled with Crossbow and Lance on charge, as usual. Stormdrakes ranged attacks though are not included, it's only combat damage for them. And yea, I included unit of 2 Stormdrakes with Blades (285 points), just to show that if you need a monstrous unit with 18 wounds and 3+ save that also looks amazing, has 2 ranged MW attacks (that's extra 3-4 MW on average) and does a lot of damage in combat phase, look no further. The only reason I look at Hero monsters is because Strormdrakes can't take Amulet of Destiny, hah.

So yea, at first it looks like Black Dragon does more damage versus low armour, hurray. But then you remember that Knight has a shooting attack that causes 1.8 MW on average. But then you remember that Black dragon has a shooting attack that causes MWs as well, but it has much shorter range and can do anything between 0.17 and 6 mortal wounds on average, depending on a target, so much more situational. Knight however can also somewhat reliably remove 1-3 wound models from play, and you can even try your luck at destroying 5 wound heroes, so that also adds up to his damage (although in a weird and hard to calculate way as a pure damage). So... overall, Dreadlord has a much better time when clearing out from tarpits with a lot of cheap bodies due to his breath attack and less rend, but Knight just has a much easier time achieving his max potential, especially versus high save targets. It pains me to say it, but Knight mostly wins in a damage department. Or, in short, Dreadlord is better versus big blocks of low armoured chaff, Knight is better versus elites and middle ground.

And THEN, at the end of it all, you remember that Black Dragon is 290, while Knight-Drakonis is 255. Yeeep. Honestly, why pay 35 points more for slighlty better tankiness (if you're taking his shield) and situationally better damage (and against hordes of all things), when Knight-Drakonis has so much more going for him AND he is quite cheaper as well? I hope that someone could show me that I am wrong, but for now, if you want a mobile and heavy hitting dragon in your min-maxed Living City army, take Knigh-Drakonis

P.S. I would expect some point nerfs to Stormdrakes in the future though. I hope.

Yes, but people already have the old dragon, and this will sell the new dragon.

[Kirby]

10 hours ago, readercolin said:

Best Mortal Wound generators.

Wow.  Thanks for the exhaustive breakdown.   You’ve certainly presented several options that hadnt occurred to me

13 hours ago, readercolin said:

Warding Brand is a "defensive" option, but you can throw it on a trash unit and run it into their graveguard

In a previous game vs FEC, i tried to combine warding brand on a block of 20 Corsairs with Curse from a Runelord.  A further 20 Corsairs behind to unleash hell.  The plan was that up to 100 attacks would allow me to fish for 17 mw + another 10 from the corsairs who would benefit from Rally and lifeswarm.

In that case, however, i was confronted by multiple msu of Flayers. The dice gods abandoned me to fail both warding brand and curse.  FEC then easily dispeled lifeswarm and slaughtered everyone in a double turn.

Perhaps, i can revisit this in future.  I feel that curse could be worthwhile with enough 3 attack corsairs.  Id like an Lord Relictor to improve prayers, but ive no more space for coalition.

14 hours ago, readercolin said:

Gemenids will deal a mortal wounds to models that it passes over, and will also prevent command abilities from being used.

This *could have been* very effective as graveguard rely on several CA.  However, on closer inspection i discovered the relevant CAs are in fact auras.  So graveguard neither issue nor recieve those CA

I ran 6 long strike raptors on Saturday they were effective at taking out bloodknights, but i left it too late to target the graveguard.  This one is definitely on me.  Got to prioritize the graveguard.  Bloodknights look more intimidating at first, but once buffs are applied the guard really out shine them.   Rend -2 from Raptors is great.  But i might try lists with judicator bows too.  12 4+ wounds for 480pts is kinda squishy.

Turtle an Gotrex are great ideas too. However, im not sure whether those points would be better spent on improving battleline to Phoenix Guard. They should be more resilient and will hopefully last long enough to give me the numbers required to hold objectives.

Again thanks for the indepth explaination. Much appreciated 

[readercolin]

11 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

So yea, at first it looks like Black Dragon does more damage versus low armour, hurray. But then you remember that Knight has a shooting attack that causes 1.8 MW on average. But then you remember that Black dragon has a shooting attack that causes MWs as well, but it has much shorter range and can do anything between 0.17 and 6 mortal wounds on average, depending on a target, so much more situational. Knight however can also somewhat reliably remove 1-3 wound models from play, and you can even try your luck at destroying 5 wound heroes, so that also adds up to his damage (although in a weird and hard to calculate way as a pure damage). So... overall, Dreadlord has a much better time when clearing out from tarpits with a lot of cheap bodies due to his breath attack and less rend, but Knight just has a much easier time achieving his max potential, especially versus high save targets. It pains me to say it, but Knight mostly wins in a damage department. Or, in short, Dreadlord is better versus big blocks of low armoured chaff, Knight is better versus elites and middle ground.

And THEN, at the end of it all, you remember that Black Dragon is 290, while Knight-Drakonis is 255. Yeeep. Honestly, why pay 35 points more for slighlty better tankiness (if you're taking his shield) and situationally better damage (and against hordes of all things), when Knight-Drakonis has so much more going for him AND he is quite cheaper as well? I hope that someone could show me that I am wrong, but for now, if you want a mobile and heavy hitting dragon in your min-maxed Living City army, take Knigh-Drakonis

P.S. I would expect some point nerfs to Stormdrakes in the future though. I hope.

You take the dreadlord on black dragon because you can't take the Knight-Draconis as your general, and you are limited by the 1/4 rule.

The dreadlord still has play over a unit of 2 Stormdrake Guard.  He is a hero and therefore can benefit from heroic actions.  He can carry an artefact, to either add additional tankiness, or some other utility.  And he can be your general, to benefit from a command trait.  Sadly for him, he only has the command trait bonus over the Knight-Draconis.

If we look at command traits that can make a notable difference, there are a few. 

The first is Hammerhall, and "Blood of the Twelve", giving a 12" bubble of re-roll 1's to wound.  Considering that the dreadlord can buff his wound rolls by 1 using his command ability (or a neighbor can), this can be a noticable improvement in damage because he would be wounding on a 2+ with every melee weapon except his sword.  Combine this with the Twin Stones on somebody, and you can be buffed by +1 to hit, +1 to wound, and re-roll 1's to wound.  Meanwhile, the Knight can be buffed by the +1 to hit and re-roll 1's to wound.  Combining these, we can get Dreadlords that can expect to do 19.44 damage before saves, and 11.67 to a 3+ with lances compared to the Knight-Draconis getting 12.29 before saves and 9.34 to a 3+.  If you are going this deep though, it is only really going to pay off if you are running 2-3 dreadlords.

In Anvilguard, there are no command traits that make a significant difference.  However, you do have the drakeblood curses.  Acidic Blood can give someone some caution when hitting him, though it will do a maximum of 14 wounds and an average of 7 unless you can get some healing on the dragon.  Jutting Bones is probably better, as it effectively will let you "stomp" twice after charging.

In Tempest Eye, Swift as the Wind lets your dragon fight first, as well as run and charge.  This is a drastic improvement, and can be well worth bringing.  Also, I really, really wish that coalition units could be your general, because I really want to stick this trait on a stardrake.

Living City gets you Iron Oak Artisan, which lets you have your crossbow and still have a +1 to your save, as well as buffs your wound rolls, making your command trait irrelevant.  Once again, I'm irritated by the ruling of coalition units not allowed to be your general.

Misthaven will let you deepstrike your dragon, and you can use your command trait to give it a 6+ ward, allowing you to use your amulet of destiny on a unit that is more useful (like the Knight-Draconis).

Excelsis can let your general retreat and charge.

So yeah, we have a few use cases where a dreadlord general can be slightly better than a Knight-Draconis.  Most of the time though, the Knight-Draconis or a squad of 2-4 stormdrakes is going to serve you better.  And any case where you are wanting to run a different general (to unlock battleline requirements, or to buff other parts of your army), the Knight-Draconis is basically always going to be better (except misthaven I guess...).

[Zeblasky]

7 hours ago, readercolin said:

You take the dreadlord on black dragon because you can't take the Knight-Draconis as your general, and you are limited by the 1/4 rule.

The dreadlord still has play over a unit of 2 Stormdrake Guard.  He is a hero and therefore can benefit from heroic actions.  He can carry an artefact, to either add additional tankiness, or some other utility.  And he can be your general, to benefit from a command trait.  Sadly for him, he only has the command trait bonus over the Knight-Draconis.

If we look at command traits that can make a notable difference, there are a few. 

The first is Hammerhall, and "Blood of the Twelve", giving a 12" bubble of re-roll 1's to wound.  Considering that the dreadlord can buff his wound rolls by 1 using his command ability (or a neighbor can), this can be a noticable improvement in damage because he would be wounding on a 2+ with every melee weapon except his sword.  Combine this with the Twin Stones on somebody, and you can be buffed by +1 to hit, +1 to wound, and re-roll 1's to wound.  Meanwhile, the Knight can be buffed by the +1 to hit and re-roll 1's to wound.  Combining these, we can get Dreadlords that can expect to do 19.44 damage before saves, and 11.67 to a 3+ with lances compared to the Knight-Draconis getting 12.29 before saves and 9.34 to a 3+.  If you are going this deep though, it is only really going to pay off if you are running 2-3 dreadlords.

In Anvilguard, there are no command traits that make a significant difference.  However, you do have the drakeblood curses.  Acidic Blood can give someone some caution when hitting him, though it will do a maximum of 14 wounds and an average of 7 unless you can get some healing on the dragon.  Jutting Bones is probably better, as it effectively will let you "stomp" twice after charging.

In Tempest Eye, Swift as the Wind lets your dragon fight first, as well as run and charge.  This is a drastic improvement, and can be well worth bringing.  Also, I really, really wish that coalition units could be your general, because I really want to stick this trait on a stardrake.

Living City gets you Iron Oak Artisan, which lets you have your crossbow and still have a +1 to your save, as well as buffs your wound rolls, making your command trait irrelevant.  Once again, I'm irritated by the ruling of coalition units not allowed to be your general.

Misthaven will let you deepstrike your dragon, and you can use your command trait to give it a 6+ ward, allowing you to use your amulet of destiny on a unit that is more useful (like the Knight-Draconis).

Excelsis can let your general retreat and charge.

So yeah, we have a few use cases where a dreadlord general can be slightly better than a Knight-Draconis.  Most of the time though, the Knight-Draconis or a squad of 2-4 stormdrakes is going to serve you better.  And any case where you are wanting to run a different general (to unlock battleline requirements, or to buff other parts of your army), the Knight-Draconis is basically always going to be better (except misthaven I guess...).

I completely agree, that Dreadlord can be better than Stormdrakes, I even said it my previous post. Mostly due to being a hero and Amulet of destiny, but still.

I did kinda forget that you can no longer make coalition heroes into a general, so yes, it does makes Dreadlord slightly better in CoS roster, while in SCE Dreadlord would be ultimately pointless. The funny thing here hoveewr is that most of those command traits buff chances to wound, which is both great and bad for a Black dragon, as Black Dragon Jaws get to a 3+ to would only on an second (third?) bracket, so otherwise this bonus is wasted most of the time on one of his most powerful attacks.

And yea, you can make Dreadlord your general only if you're set on taking CoS default battleline. And while we have a pretty good selection of unconditional battleline choices, it's not always a good choice.

 

[Kirby]

If I cast these two spells in sequence, am I guaranteed 9 MW?

Anvilgard / Har Kuron - Vitriolic Spray:  'Until the start of your next hero phase, that unit has a Save characteristic of "-" '

Sorceress on Dragon - Bladewind: 'roll 9 dice. for each roll that is lower than the unit's save characteristic, that unit suffers 1 mortal wound.'

I imagine there is probably a rule against this, but im not sure where?

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, Kirby said:

If I cast these two spells in sequence, am I guaranteed 9 MW?

Anvilgard / Har Kuron - Vitriolic Spray:  'Until the start of your next hero phase, that unit has a Save characteristic of "-" '

Sorceress on Dragon - Bladewind: 'roll 9 dice. for each roll that is lower than the unit's save characteristic, that unit suffers 1 mortal wound.'

I imagine there is probably a rule against this, but im not sure where?

I think that's perfectly viable. Same with Gyrocopters with steam guns that turn into blenders.

[Kirby]

On 10/6/2021 at 3:39 PM, zilberfrid said:

I think that's perfectly viable. Same with Gyrocopters with steam guns that turn into blenders.

Casting on an 8+ and then a 6+ means the odds of getting both off are only about 30%. So, it would be a stretch to achieve this normally. But with a darkling sacrifice for +2 to cast, things improve to about 66%. 

This could be a rather unreliable way for anvilgard to clearout pesky units of annihilators with 9 wounds  

[Jymmy]

7 hours ago, Kirby said:

Casting on an 8+ and then a 6+ means the odds of getting both off are only about 30%. So, it would be a stretch to achieve this normally. But with a darkling sacrifice for +2 to cast, things improve to about 66%. 

This could be a rather unreliable way for anvilgard to clearout pesky units of annihilators with 9 wounds  

If you give her the warlord trait of master of magic she will be rerolling cast dice, so is not so unreliable… The other question is what would be better if getting her second spell with the book at the cost of survival (amulet or Anvilgard cloak) or getting the 5+ ward and getting the second cast with cogs…

Anvilgard gets you two dragons with 5+ ward save, sometimes it tempts me to drop tempest eye lol

Edited October 7, 2021 by Jymmy

[Kirby]

2 hours ago, Jymmy said:

If you give her the warlord trait of master of magic she will be rerolling cast dice, so is not so unreliable… The other question is what would be better if getting her second spell with the book at the cost of survival (amulet of Anvilgard cloak) or getting the 5+ ward and getting the second cast with cogs…

Anvilgard gets you two dragons with 5+ ward save, sometimes it tempts me to drop tempest eye lol

Wow! This got me thinking.   Rerolls would be great.  This is what i've been thinking about:

 

• Darkshards in front to unleash hell and sacrifice for casting buff
• A Battlemage from Shyish to cast Pall of Doom (Bravery -2)
• Sorceress on Dragon with Master of Magic (Reroll Cast), Arcane Tome (2nd Cast), Fell Gaze (Bravery -2), Vitrolic Spray and Bladewind.  

My maths isnt good enough to know the exact odds of it all going off as planned.  Hopefully they would achieve at least 9 MWs, a Monsterous Rampage Roar, and finally hit the opponent with a -4 bravery debuff.  

Of course, there are ways to counter the bravery debuff If that were the case.  Id have a potential arcane bolt for d3 mw and stomp for d3 mw.   And of course, 10 darkshards should be good for allocating a further 5 wounds against a (-) save.

[Jymmy]

1 hour ago, Kirby said:

Wow! This got me thinking.   Rerolls would be great.  This is what i've been thinking about:

 

• Darkshards in front to unleash hell and sacrifice for casting buff
• A Battlemage from Shyish to cast Pall of Doom (Bravery -2)
• Sorceress on Dragon with Master of Magic (Reroll Cast), Arcane Tome (2nd Cast), Fell Gaze (Bravery -2), Vitrolic Spray and Bladewind.  

My maths isnt good enough to know the exact odds of it all going off as planned.  Hopefully they would achieve at least 9 MWs, a Monsterous Rampage Roar, and finally hit the opponent with a -4 bravery debuff.  

Of course, there are ways to counter the bravery debuff If that were the case.  Id have a potential arcane bolt for d3 mw and stomp for d3 mw.   And of course, 10 darkshards should be good for allocating a further 5 wounds against a (-) save.

I was also planing about using darkshards around her, but in a unit of 20 or 30.  
about the bravery debuff another option could be engaging the unit near the sorceress with a karhibidiss, which can give a -1 bravery and also follow the pace of the dragon with 3d6 roll to charge. Now that warscroll batallions are dead we cannot get more than 1 drakeblood curse unless you use blackfang crimelord right?

Edited October 7, 2021 by Jymmy

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

17 hours ago, Kirby said:

Wow! This got me thinking.   Rerolls would be great.  This is what i've been thinking about:

 

• Darkshards in front to unleash hell and sacrifice for casting buff
• A Battlemage from Shyish to cast Pall of Doom (Bravery -2)
• Sorceress on Dragon with Master of Magic (Reroll Cast), Arcane Tome (2nd Cast), Fell Gaze (Bravery -2), Vitrolic Spray and Bladewind.  

My maths isnt good enough to know the exact odds of it all going off as planned.  Hopefully they would achieve at least 9 MWs, a Monsterous Rampage Roar, and finally hit the opponent with a -4 bravery debuff.  

Of course, there are ways to counter the bravery debuff If that were the case.  Id have a potential arcane bolt for d3 mw and stomp for d3 mw.   And of course, 10 darkshards should be good for allocating a further 5 wounds against a (-) save.

I think you should be able to get that 8+ to cast fairly reliably if you can cast at +2 rerolling (without having done the math ). Likely even the 8+/6+ for both spells. The question is whether that is more efficient than just trying to reliably cast Vitriolic Spray and then shooting the enemy unit with Freeguild Crossbows or something.

I think leaning into the bravery bomb is fun, but overall not a good strategy. Bravery bombs are unreliable at the best of times, because of all the battleshock immunity and bravery 10 floating around. And if they additionally require a spell from a caster you would not otherwise take and a mount trait, I am not sure the value is really there. Especially since your prime targets for Vitriolic Spray are probably the worst targets for Battleshock: Highly armoured, high bravery elite troops. I think trying to do both is too anti-synergistic to be actually good, even though it is fun.

Also, be aware that Roar does not turn off battleshock immunity. The Horrorghast Endless Spell does, however, and is probably the better use of an extra cast over Pall of Doom in bravery bomb set ups.

[Kirby]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Also, be aware that Roar does not turn off battleshock immunity. The Horrorghast Endless Spell does, however, and is probably the better use of an extra cast over Pall of Doom in bravery bomb set ups.

Oh good catch, my bad.  Combat phase only for Roar.  Thats a spanner to my plan

[Kirby]

20 hours ago, Jymmy said:

Now that warscroll batallions are dead we cannot get more than 1 drakeblood curse unless you use blackfang crimelord right?

Right, i tend to use crimelord but considered dropping it for the casting reroll.  Acidic bones makes my hydra worthwhile 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

20 hours ago, Jymmy said:

Now that warscroll batallions are dead we cannot get more than 1 drakeblood curse unless you use blackfang crimelord right?

Can't you get more of them as an extra enhancement? They seem like unique enhancements to me, so you should be able to pick up extra ones.

[swarmofseals]

I definitely think that Vitriolic Spray->Bladewind is a case of getting fancier than is necessary, at least for competitive purposes. If you resolve Vitriolic Spray there are a million ways to finish the unit off. The main question should be what is the most efficient way of getting the job done with bonus points to it still being useful when you fail spray.

[Kirby]

On 10/8/2021 at 1:19 AM, Kirby said:

Wow! This got me thinking.   Rerolls would be great.  This is what i've been thinking about:

 

• Darkshards in front to unleash hell and sacrifice for casting buff
• A Battlemage from Shyish to cast Pall of Doom (Bravery -2)
• Sorceress on Dragon with Master of Magic (Reroll Cast), Arcane Tome (2nd Cast), Fell Gaze (Bravery -2), Vitrolic Spray and Bladewind.  

My maths isnt good enough to know the exact odds of it all going off as planned.  Hopefully they would achieve at least 9 MWs, a Monsterous Rampage Roar, and finally hit the opponent with a -4 bravery debuff.  

Of course, there are ways to counter the bravery debuff If that were the case.  Id have a potential arcane bolt for d3 mw and stomp for d3 mw.   And of course, 10 darkshards should be good for allocating a further 5 wounds against a (-) save.

Reporting back on this.  In a 1500pt game of Tectonic Interference vs Dominion SCE + an Arcanum on Dracoline, I was second.

I was hit by Yndrasta, 3 Annihilators, and Arcanum on Dracoline with a mount trait for explosive deployment from reserve (much like the annihilators).   Ynd and the Ann came in front and center.  The Arcanum approached from a flank.

Things went well initially, I mitigated the initial damage of the annihilators by shielding behind a hydra and a kharibdryss.  The annihilators took some damage from Unleash Hell. So, i decided that i could probably take them out in my first turn using my gun-line.  When it came to casting everything went off thanks to the reroll cast. 9 MW were successfully sent towards Yndrasta.   Happy days! 

Unfortunately, Yndrasta rolled hot with her ward saves.   Worse still the annihilators weathered the gunline thanks to the Arcanum's cycle of the storm.  So, they started to knock lumps out of my bracketed behemoths too'.   Finally the Arcanums flanking move took her out of range of my runelords curse...  it took me too long to grind through the alpha strike and it was game over due poor decisions on my part.

In future, I wouldn't use this against an opponent with a ward save.  Its took risky.  Also, I got greedy chasing Yndrasta for 9 MW when guaranteeing the removal of the annihilators should have been priority.  

[Smash]

When i use an Anointed on frostheart phoenix do i keep the anointed ability blessing of the ur-phoenix? 

[EntMan]

14 minutes ago, Smash said:

When i use an Anointed on frostheart phoenix do i keep the anointed ability blessing of the ur-phoenix? 

Based on the warscroll on the App I'd say no as it's not on that unit's warscroll. Wouldn't surprise me if this is an app mistake though so you'd need to check the printed warscroll/faq etc.

Edit: I just checked on the old app and it's the same there, so yes it looks like piloting the big birdie does distract you from casting and unbinding spells.

Edited October 15, 2021 by EntMan

[swarmofseals]

I know nobody is talking about it now, but I've been playing a lot of cities and doing quite well. Tempest Eye, Living City, and Anvilgard are all very strong and I'm sure Hallowheart can be quite nice as well.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I know nobody is talking about it now, but I've been playing a lot of cities and doing quite well. Tempest Eye, Living City, and Anvilgard are all very strong and I'm sure Hallowheart can be quite nice as well.

Yeah, not a lot of buzz about them right now, but Cities of Sigmar is definitely still a solid book. Probably not tier 1, but they can definitely hang in tier 2, from a competitive perspective.

[KydbrookP]

8 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I know nobody is talking about it now, but I've been playing a lot of cities and doing quite well. Tempest Eye, Living City, and Anvilgard are all very strong and I'm sure Hallowheart can be quite nice as well.

Out of interest, what do you find is working well for you? Any unexpected standout units?