AoS3 - Kruleboyz Discussion

[Ganigumo]

Played that 6 game event over the weekend, I only managed to win 1 out of 5.

Game 1 was against all infantry fireslayers on head on collision. I misdeployed the troggoth and had to put him in the back. Not sure that it mattered much though, I got boxed in quickly and failed even some early BT because I failed to get my damage to stick. Lost 31-7, although getting off nasty hex to delete some HGB felt great.

Game 2 was a mirror against big yeller kruleboyz on Battlelines drawn. I won 28-9, he made a couple errors in deployment and had more drops so I took the turn and had a very impactful t1.

Game 3 was against oakenbrow sylvaneth on the mighty and the cunning. It went very poorly for me. We could only deploy in the first 11". I deployed so I could zone out the teleports on my side and gave away t1. He then summoned a tree right in front of me with the treelord ancient, cast an endless spell and the warsong scroll spell with it, killing a few of my screening models that were in front of the 9x boltboyz and sludgeraker (I removed the ones in front of the sludgeraker). He also cast the spiteswarm spell to give durthu +3 to charge. Then he teleported the durthu to the summoned tree, rolled an 8 to charge after a reroll to go 11" into the sludgeraker, was only within 6" of 2 boltboys, piled in along the sludgeraker to be within 3" of the boltboyz and destroyed the unit. Then teleported out. I played decently into the midgame but couldn't recover and lost 35-15. If I had deployed the boltboyz and sludgeraker further apart maybe it wouldn't have gone as poorly.

Game 4 was against stormcast on the nidus paths. His list was some of the cat cavalry in BH, 3 units of EC vindictors, 2 units of longstrikes and some small heroes. The longstrikes were a big problem for me, because they outrange the boltboys, so I picked covered in mud and took the first turn to try to threaten them. I failed all 3 4+ saves, moved the boltboyz out of shooting range, and pushed my faster units forward to threaten the longstrikes while still zoning any deepstrikes, and teleported a unit of 3 boltboyz through the nidus path to shoot the longstrikes, where they failed to do any damage. On his turn he moved the longstrikes forward, towards my army, and crippled the big unit of boltboyz while moving his other units into the objectives and deepstriking the cats to charge my chaff. He then rolled the double turn and finished off the boltboyz. It still ended up being a super close game but I still lost despite getting all 5 BT, and my opponent missing one, I missed my GS because the sludgeraker with 6 wounds taken failed to kill 5 vindictors. Ending score was 25-20

 

Game 5 was against skaven on the prize of gallet. He had 2x20 clanrats, 2x20 stormvermin, thanquol, a doomwheel, a bunch of weapon teams and a few other heroes. He made me deploy my entire army first by starting with weapon teams, and I gave him the turn. In his first turn he doubked the doomwheels movement, rolled a 13 for movement to go 26" which let him to passover wounds to my screens (deployment lines were 22" apart), then he shot at the boltboyz, rolled an 11 to charge, which was enough to fly over my units and get into combat with the boltboyz. (So 37" of movement, 39" threat range for shooting). I unleashed hell but it survived and killed the boltboyz, but was killed in return. After that play I just got clobbered since I didn't have enough damage to deal with the rest of the army. I don't feel there was much I could've done other than maybe pile my deployment into a ball to counter that or maybe use noisy racket instead of lethal surprise but the doomwheel had plenty of damage to spare. Covered in mud was a no-go because the board didn't have any terrain I could take cover on in my deployment zone. I lost 29-9

Last game was against a super fun KO list on the silksteel nest. Gotrek, an Ironclad, a unit of 9 skywardens, Brokk, and a few other small units/heroes. They outdropped me and gave me the turn, but that let me get my 9 covered in mud boltboyz into cover. I moved up my vulture towards the ironclad and my screens up the board to score barge through. On their turn they committed the ironclad to the vulture instead of redeploying and managed to destroy it and a couole screens. On my next turn I took chose gaining momentum (choosing brokk) then took out the ironclad with the 9 boltboyz, stole and burned a back objective with spider riders, killed Brokk with the boltboyz on that side of the map, but failed the BT, because I charged the slightly damaged mirebrute into the unit of 9 wardens (with 8 left), only to completely whiff and only kill 2 models, which could then pile in and both take the objective and kill the mirebrute so I lost the BT (and the battle on the left side of the map as a result). My opponent spent their next turn cleaning up screens, then in my next turn I failed to cast nasty hex on gotrek,used AoA on & rolled super hot with the boltboyz to get a bunch of mortals and he took like 5 damage (His DR works against attacks, so it hits our mortals), then failed a 3" charge on the sludgeraker, so I couldn't finish gotrek off, so I had the rest of my army cleaned up quickly after that. I lost 29-13

I think my play was much tighter this time around, but I felt the army struggle a lot. Games 3 & 5 felt unwinnable, since I had no options to respond to the power play. Games 4 & 6 came down to some unfortunate dice rolls I think. I definitely made a few mistakes in round 1.

I'm not sure if 9 boltboyz is the right answer after playing with them. Maybe 2x6 is better, to spread out the power. I'm not sold on MSU yet. It really suffers from lists that can splash mortals to multiple units.

Vulture boss was still super useful, with super spiky damage. I'd love to run 2, but the army is too tight on points to justify it I think. Mean'un didn't help its damage really, since it doesn't help fix the issue of it being inconsistent.

Mirebrute hits hard, but is really easy for certain armies to play around, to the point where its nearly useless (fyreslayers being a great example).

[Vasshpit]

@Ganigumo 

With your experience what are some small but meaningful changes that could be made to help the kruleboyz better compete?

After reading your report (thanks for posting) one that stuck out was "covered in mud". It really should at least be a given to get one unit and roll a D3 to see how many. 

Another one is the scary taktikz. Would a simple 6+ ward be the way to go or some kind of bravery roll?

Im currently building an an army with no real design yet outside of just painting up all my options.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Vasshpit

[Arzalyn]

7 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

I think my play was much tighter this time around, but I felt the army struggle a lot. Games 3 & 5 felt unwinnable, since I had no options to respond to the power play. Games 4 & 6 came down to some unfortunate dice rolls I think. I definitely made a few mistakes in round 1.

I'm not sure if 9 boltboyz is the right answer after playing with them. Maybe 2x6 is better, to spread out the power. I'm not sold on MSU yet. It really suffers from lists that can splash mortals to multiple units.

Vulture boss was still super useful, with super spiky damage. I'd love to run 2, but the army is too tight on points to justify it I think. Mean'un didn't help its damage really, since it doesn't help fix the issue of it being inconsistent.

Mirebrute hits hard, but is really easy for certain armies to play around, to the point where its nearly useless (fyreslayers being a great example).

Sorry to hear about some of the matches, you seen to have faced most of the problems that Kruleboyz has as an faction (to dice dependent, units are easily deleted, not much we can do after they delete the boltboyz). In my experience 2x6 boltboyz perform better than a unit of 9, it still packs enough damage and gives two things your opponent need to deal with rather than just 1. I'm never had much success with the mirebrute when I didn't have supa sneaky to put him in a better position. Maybe he could be a good body guard for the boltboyz?

How did the spiders and the rippaz perform in those games (assuming your list was the last list you posted here)?

5 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

After reading your report (thanks for posting) one that stuck out was "covered in mud". It really should at least be a given to get one unit and roll a D3 to see how many. 

Honestly all of the tricks should just be "pick D3 targets" rather than the convoluted rolls inside rolls we have. We already depend so much on good rolls to get our damage, we don't need even more inconsistency in one of our few tricks we have as a army.

[Ganigumo]

46 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

@Ganigumo 

With your experience what are some small but meaningful changes that could be made to help the kruleboyz better compete?

After reading your report (thanks for posting) one that stuck out was "covered in mud". It really should at least be a given to get one unit and roll a D3 to see how many. 

Another one is the scary taktikz. Would a simple 6+ ward be the way to go or some kind of bravery roll?

Im currently building an an army with no real design yet outside of just painting up all my options.

 

I'll give a few of my thoughts on what I think needs to be changed, but I'll try to keep them short and targeted.

• The dirty tricks should all changed to always do at least something, except maybe disappearin act if you get too greedy.
• Points are too high across the army, even outside of gutrippaz, given their weaknesses (low movement and save), which prevents us from taking advantage of the few units that actually are costed aggressively (vultures and mirebrutes). Boltboyz are roughly equivalent to Longstrikes, doing slightly less on the long profile, or slightly more on the short one unless you invest 100-400 points in support pieces for them. They're good, but not strong enough to carry an army.
• The army desperately needs CP. Something that would let KB get extra, or getting double uses would go a long way. Maybe take the vulture's ability and make the bonus CP free.
• Shamans should be able to both cast and give out poisons and elixirs. and poisons and elixirs should just be wholly within 12" with no other restrictions.
• This is the big one. Boltboyz should only have one attack profile (I don't care which one). While I like the design space it plays in a lot, since literally no other units in the game use a similar system its just a crippling drawback. Its the only shooting unit that gets less range instead of more when they move, so even big yellerz boltboyz get outranged by anything with a 24" range, and even some stuff with 16 or 18 if they're fast enough. Which is game-determining when the army is basically carried by them.
• Skare taktics can just be removed, or it should just be a permanent -1 to hit against gutrippaz. I'm not too picky with which way it goes, but it should be something that doesn't require a dice roll.

I'm not sure any of these changes would really push the army into strong territory, as I think they need to be given new tools to do that, which means either new units, new allegiance or subfaction abilities, or new command traits and/or artifacts (please rewrite the artifacts entirely) or some aggressive battleline option changes (stuff like mirebrutes, ballistas and sludgerakers). Theres a lot of other things you could do, but these are the major points of frustration in the army I think. Also give Skulbugz vulture boss battleline. I'd run 3 in bounty hunters, it would actually be great.

 

@Arzalyn The mirebrute was useful about half the time. any armies that move up will give an opportunity to counter charge with it, and I had plenty of screens to protect it with and usually took second turn, so I couldn't get doubled. The low movement is definitely an issue. Spider riders and snarlfangs were pretty good, the base army is so slow it can make pushing onto early objectives and some of the early BT tough to score so they cover that weakness a little bit. In terms of their role they were basically just fast hobgrots. Rippa nearly got my general killed by rolling hot and killing a bunch of death frenzy stormvermin (which would have lost me a BT), and then rolled a 6 on battleshock which was pretty funny.

[Vasshpit]

17 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Shamans should be able to both cast and give out poisons and elixirs. and poisons and elixirs should just be wholly within 12" with no other restrictions

Definitely. 

17 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

This is the big one. Boltboyz

Thematically I like the two different and think this should actually be applied across the game. Just my opinion. 

19 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Skare taktics

This could work. Im also a big fan of universal rules like can we just make all shields everywhere just a 6+ save. 

Its small but annoying, why dont the killabosses have skare tactiks?...🤔

Pertaining to the belcha banner, im an advocate of making him a unit instead of hero. Perhaps with a cap and some kind of aura buff. I'd rather fix current than have more broken options. 

I want to run some sloggoth with rippaz, not for the +1 but just to see how it plays out. Imo its not a horrible unit, it wont be your hammee but I think it could do some work. 

Thanks for the insight. 

[Ganigumo]

I agree that I'd like to see the shooting part applied across the game, with a less accurate attack if the unit moved (with some specific exceptions like KO boats), but its much more realistic to just change boltboyz than it is to change every other shooting unit in the game.

If we weren't so strapped for points, and/or the sloggoths aura affected shooting attacks, I think he might make it into some lists. I find myself using AoA a lot on stuff like sludgerakers, mirebrutes and vultures. If you could fit it into a monster heavy list it would definitely do some work.

[Malakree]

Caveat, I haven't played kruelboyz and I only have 1 unit of gutripperz which are overcosted as sin atm (10 arboyz is 10 points cheaper at 170).

Is it not worth going grinning blades. Even most spells require LoS to target forcing everything to come into 12" to shoot/spell you. Only real problem is sentinels but tbh they should dumpster kruelboyz whatever you do. 

[Vasshpit]

What about a simple -1 rend on gutrippaz?

Would this equal out ther cost?

Edited August 22, 2022 by Vasshpit

[woolf]

Imo (and I think we have discussed here before) the main thing they should do is make the army play much more impactful in line with their identity, i.e. give them some ambush rules, makes the traps have actual impact (e.g. through utility debuffs such as prevent charges etc). Im kinda fine with Gutrippaz being ****** in general as long as they have some way to be good when playing on their own terms (attacking trapped units, attacking out of ambush etc)... And also having main dmg come from boltboyz shooting out of ambush seems in line with what the KB tactics should be.

To just make the army more competitive I suppose dropping points in particular on gutrippaz will do quite a lot, but ofc risk just becoming body spam. so to make them good while also fun and thematic, a pretty significant re-write would seem to be needed. in other words, lets just do a "night haunt" and huddle down for this edition, crossing our fingers for the next one 😂

[Rachmani]

I agree with the assessment, but 2x6 vs 9 boltboys also means 12 vs 9 boltboys. >.<
would you rather take 6 & 3 over 9?

[Vasshpit]

4 minutes ago, woolf said:

lets just do a "night haunt" and huddle down for this edition, crossing our fingers for the next one 😂

When they were first shown I did say to myself, "Awesome looking army! Now to just wait for a year or two for them to be competitive.", being a starter box army and all. 

[woolf]

Just now, Vasshpit said:

When they were first shown I did say to myself, "Awesome looking army! Now to just wait for a year or two for them to be competitive.", being a starter box army and all. 

lol spot on 

[Rachmani]

Well at least everyone can get them painted until then.

[Ganigumo]

53 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Caveat, I haven't played kruelboyz and I only have 1 unit of gutripperz which are overcosted as sin atm (10 arboyz is 10 points cheaper at 170).

Is it not worth going grinning blades. Even most spells require LoS to target forcing everything to come into 12" to shoot/spell you. Only real problem is sentinels but tbh they should dumpster kruelboyz whatever you do. 

The gutrippa tax is a big deal. 360 points down the drain on something that only functions as a screen. For those points you could bring 2x10 hobgrots AND 2x5 spider riders, which is the same number of wounds spread across multiple units that can cover more space when zoning/screening AND the spider riders cover a weakness of our low movement.
Also when it comes to spells it only sometimes stops them. Endless spells don't need vision, you measure visibility from spellportal if you have one, and any spells that splash mortals around (like slann/kroak/warsong/etc) also don't need vision (and those are the spells that smash MSU boltboy spam).
Ultimately the problem with grinnin blades is that the gutrippa tax is really hard to manage when the army is already struggling to fit enough damage, utility, and screens into 2000 points. If the meta shifts hard into shooting/magic, and the types of spells being used can be blocked by grinnin blades they'll probably become the better option out of necessity.

 

 

26 minutes ago, Rachmani said:

I agree with the assessment, but 2x6 vs 9 boltboys also means 12 vs 9 boltboys. >.<
would you rather take 6 & 3 over 9?

You'd be running 15 either way, unless you go grinnin blades, to fill up battleline. The advantage of 9 is that a second shaman is more of a bonus, rather than a necessity, and being 9 GVs its a bit easier to score the one BT where you need to slay a GV with a GV. plus you're slightly more resilient against the mortal splash spells, but only a little because they're still made of paper.

[Rachmani]

I see, so you were talking about Big Yellers. I must have missed that. Thx. 

In that case, personally I dislike 9 & prefer 2x6. I sometimes go 6 & 2x3 in Big Yellers. Boltboys can be quite the trap.

[Arzalyn]

2 hours ago, woolf said:

Imo (and I think we have discussed here before) the main thing they should do is make the army play much more impactful in line with their identity, i.e. give them some ambush rules, makes the traps have actual impact (e.g. through utility debuffs such as prevent charges etc). Im kinda fine with Gutrippaz being ****** in general as long as they have some way to be good when playing on their own terms (attacking trapped units, attacking out of ambush etc)... And also having main dmg come from boltboyz shooting out of ambush seems in line with what the KB tactics should be.

To just make the army more competitive I suppose dropping points in particular on gutrippaz will do quite a lot, but ofc risk just becoming body spam. so to make them good while also fun and thematic, a pretty significant re-write would seem to be needed. in other words, lets just do a "night haunt" and huddle down for this edition, crossing our fingers for the next one 

Yeah that is my main problem with our rules, we are the trick faction but we have very little tricks we you get them in the table. You have a couple during before the game start (dirty tricks, supa sneakky) and them one use of the waagh during the game and you are done. Its a little sad because a more general form of teleportation/deep strike (which would be really flavorful) would help solve one of the main issues we have now, that is the lack of mobility...

While I completely agree Gutrippaz need to come down in points, I REALLY hope this isn't the only change they make. We talked a lot of changes to they could make to our actual rules, but I think what we truly need is an extra one or two to solve our issues (as I don't expect new models/units before the next edition). If they just drop our points we will simple end in a similar place Beast of Chaos were before their tome celestial, with everything being super cheap due to lackluster rules.

[Ganigumo]

30 minutes ago, Rachmani said:

I see, so you were talking about Big Yellers. I must have missed that. Thx. 

In that case, personally I dislike 9 & prefer 2x6. I sometimes go 6 & 2x3 in Big Yellers. Boltboys can be quite the trap.

I kind of disagree that boltboyz are a trap. The real trap is just poor listbuilding.
The army only has 3 potential hammer units, boltboyz, sludgerakers, and mirebrutes, and they all have their own flaws and weaknesses.
Boltboyz struggle a lot with durability, but have the best threat range.
Mirebrutes struggle with mobility & durability, but are cheap
Sludgerakers are somewhere in the middle, double as a support piece but are expensive.
Overinvesting in boltboyz is just overinvesting in hammer units, you always need a plan for how to protect and get those hammers where they need to be, its just that Kruleboyz hammers have particularly exploitable weaknesses.

I think you could make a list with like 18-21 boltboyz work (or work as well as kruleboyz can), but you'd need to leave the sludgeraker & probably the mirebrute at home and get a bunch of screens. the list would have very one-sided matchups for sure, but I think thats unavoidable when playing kruleboyz.
 

[Vasshpit]

@Ganigumo I'm toying with a similar idea with big yellas. 

Mannok:General

Sludgeraker

Sludgeraker 

Belcha banna

Belcha banna

X18 Boltboyz - all msu

X2 kill bows

Da kunnin krew

1970

 

So crazy it might work or just crazy?... heh. 

[Rachmani]

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

I kind of disagree that boltboyz are a trap. The real trap is just poor listbuilding.
The army only has 3 potential hammer units, boltboyz, sludgerakers, and mirebrutes, and they all have their own flaws and weaknesses.
Boltboyz struggle a lot with durability, but have the best threat range.
Mirebrutes struggle with mobility & durability, but are cheap
Sludgerakers are somewhere in the middle, double as a support piece but are expensive.
Overinvesting in boltboyz is just overinvesting in hammer units, you always need a plan for how to protect and get those hammers where they need to be, its just that Kruleboyz hammers have particularly exploitable weaknesses.

I think you could make a list with like 18-21 boltboyz work (or work as well as kruleboyz can), but you'd need to leave the sludgeraker & probably the mirebrute at home and get a bunch of screens. the list would have very one-sided matchups for sure, but I think thats unavoidable when playing kruleboyz.
 

I should have elaborated.

Boltboys are sometimes a trap essentially means that it can be poor listbuilding to include too many of them. Even or specifically in Big Yellers, where the incentive to take them is higher.

But maybe the meta or just your opponent calls for more mirebrutes and you’re taking yellers for the cheapest battleline possible.

[Smash]

10 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

we have very little tricks we you get them in the table. You have a couple during before the game start

How about getting a new trick every battle round? Getting that minus to wound t2, luring a unit away from an objective in a late turn would be good.

Because I feel like t1 is realy fun as you plan some strat around your trick, but then you whiff and feel sad for the rest of the game having nothing more to do. 

[EvilDictator]

What is everyone's wishlist for battles scroll Kruleboyz buffs? I would love any or all of the following but am not getting my hopes up:
- +1 to casting and dispelling for Gobsprak
- Gutrippaz down to 140 points and/or the -1 to hit debuff is more consistent and effects more than one unit 
- You get to pick 2-3 dirty tricks
- Shamans can cast and give poison
- Murknob with Belcha Banner gives another buff as well as magic resist
- Beastskewer Killbow Damage made more consistent or points lowered. Something to make it not just better to bring a unit of boltboyz

[Holy_Diver]

11 hours ago, EvilDictator said:

What is everyone's wishlist for battles scroll Kruleboyz buffs? I would love any or all of the following but am not getting my hopes up:
- +1 to casting and dispelling for Gobsprak
- Gutrippaz down to 140 points and/or the -1 to hit debuff is more consistent and effects more than one unit 
- You get to pick 2-3 dirty tricks
- Shamans can cast and give poison
- Murknob with Belcha Banner gives another buff as well as magic resist
- Beastskewer Killbow Damage made more consistent or points lowered. Something to make it not just better to bring a unit of boltboyz

- Gobsprakk... he is described as the strongest wizard in the destruction faction, so for his cost I would say at the very least he must be a "Arkhan The Green" 😂
- Dirty tricks: if they are disposable effects they must have a substantial impact, for example "choose d3 enemy units with 4 wounds or less, remove them from play. At the end of the first movement phase the owner can deploy those units in his deployment zone beyond 9 "from enemy units."
- Tribe: Grinnin blades correct; Big Yellers correct; Skullbugz can change in: Re-roll hit rolls of 6 against units of Skullgugs.
- Point costs decreased for Gutrippaz, Killabow, Boltboyz and Sludgeraker.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Holy_Diver

[novakai]

cheaper Gutrippaz,  Sludgeraker battleline in Skullbugz, Dirty Trick changes and bigger radius on the Waagh ability.

i am pessimistic on any Warscroll changes as they rarely want to change them.

[Skreech Verminking]

On 8/22/2022 at 4:39 PM, Ganigumo said:

 

I'll give a few of my thoughts on what I think needs to be changed, but I'll try to keep them short and targeted.

• The dirty tricks should all changed to always do at least something, except maybe disappearin act if you get too greedy.
• Points are too high across the army, even outside of gutrippaz, given their weaknesses (low movement and save), which prevents us from taking advantage of the few units that actually are costed aggressively (vultures and mirebrutes). Boltboyz are roughly equivalent to Longstrikes, doing slightly less on the long profile, or slightly more on the short one unless you invest 100-400 points in support pieces for them. They're good, but not strong enough to carry an army.
• The army desperately needs CP. Something that would let KB get extra, or getting double uses would go a long way. Maybe take the vulture's ability and make the bonus CP free.
• Shamans should be able to both cast and give out poisons and elixirs. and poisons and elixirs should just be wholly within 12" with no other restrictions.
• This is the big one. Boltboyz should only have one attack profile (I don't care which one). While I like the design space it plays in a lot, since literally no other units in the game use a similar system its just a crippling drawback. Its the only shooting unit that gets less range instead of more when they move, so even big yellerz boltboyz get outranged by anything with a 24" range, and even some stuff with 16 or 18 if they're fast enough. Which is game-determining when the army is basically carried by them.
• Skare taktics can just be removed, or it should just be a permanent -1 to hit against gutrippaz. I'm not too picky with which way it goes, but it should be something that doesn't require a dice roll.

I'm not sure any of these changes would really push the army into strong territory, as I think they need to be given new tools to do that, which means either new units, new allegiance or subfaction abilities, or new command traits and/or artifacts (please rewrite the artifacts entirely) or some aggressive battleline option changes (stuff like mirebrutes, ballistas and sludgerakers). Theres a lot of other things you could do, but these are the major points of frustration in the army I think. Also give Skulbugz vulture boss battleline. I'd run 3 in bounty hunters, it would actually be great.

 

@Arzalyn The mirebrute was useful about half the time. any armies that move up will give an opportunity to counter charge with it, and I had plenty of screens to protect it with and usually took second turn, so I couldn't get doubled. The low movement is definitely an issue. Spider riders and snarlfangs were pretty good, the base army is so slow it can make pushing onto early objectives and some of the early BT tough to score so they cover that weakness a little bit. In terms of their role they were basically just fast hobgrots. Rippa nearly got my general killed by rolling hot and killing a bunch of death frenzy stormvermin (which would have lost me a BT), and then rolled a 6 on battleshock which was pretty funny.

There is nothing you could have done about the skaven player mate.

if he rolls good (which he apparently did) you will loose to him.

if he rolls badly, well let’s just say that the doomwhee will have the same effect on him as it had on you

[Grugg]

Hey all, any advice for a kruelboyz list - building on the Dominion models?

I know there's a list based around boltboyz, and was thinking of using them as the 'hammer' along with some casters?

Any gitz units worth taking as allies?

Usually play ogors so would like something a bit different and lost my cities of sigmar army in the refresh (I played with lots of stormcast and sylvaneth coalition).