AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

13 hours ago, Honk said:

Yes, the changes sound interesting, but since he can’t target himself for a 3+ ward, the old abilities were just better, the supreme lord ability with skellis will cause nerd rage around the tables.

If Nagash plus 80 skeletons becomes a real list again, that's a win in my book. Would give me an excuse to put those extra Tomb Kings shields I got before Gravelords dropped to use.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Sception]

I think the spirit change may be a preview of spirit host changes in the oresumed upcoming nighthaunt book.  Until we see one way or the othef on that I'm not going to get worked up over it.

With no save rerolls and no ward vs. Regular wounds (not even the usual 6++ for death), this version of nagash is super vulnerable to just regular old mass unit attacks.

In and of itself, I fon't hate this warscroll.  There are things I'd like changed (swap to hit snd wound on the sword, give him his ward against any wounds not just mortals), but he's still among the strongest casters in the game, and his abilities still reasonably conver that 'god of undeath' feel.

He's way more killable, but 2+ rerollable armor probably shouldn't be in the game.  fieldable in all death armies is great.  I expect his points will have to come down a lot before he's really viable in the 2k comoetitive scene, outside of maybe nighthaunt who are just that dedperate for monsters and for generals that can take even a modest hit, but if im right that'll slowly work itself out, and in the mean time I personally always felt Nagash was a better fit for narrative big games that the competitive tourney scene anyway.

[Sception]

44 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

If Nagash plus 80 skeletons becomes a real list again, that's a win in my book. Would give me an excuse to out those extra Tomb Kings shields I got before Gravelords dropped to use.

The problem with thus  and with supreme lord plus skittle recycling in general, is that he no longer fixes battleshock.  You get one inspiring presence, and whatever units font get it will be super vulnerable to crumbling.

[Nightseer2012]

So... now Nagash does not count as being a Soulblight Gravelord, because he does not benefit from the allegiance ability that specifically gives him Soulblight Gravelord as a keyword?  So no buffing him with any SBGL specific abilities then, oh well.

[Leshoyadut]

As sad as Nagash's fate in our army is, I'm actually kinda excited for the Coven Throne. Between the coordinated strike allegiance ability and the reduction in points, I think it actually has a (niche) place in our army at this point. Felt like it was pretty close to being good, it was just overcosted; now it's at least less overcosted, if at all.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

12 hours ago, Sception said:

The problem with thus  and with supreme lord plus skittle recycling in general, is that he no longer fixes battleshock.  You get one inspiring presence, and whatever units font get it will be super vulnerable to crumbling.

I suppose you could go Legion of Night and bring a general with the Battleshock immunity trait. Maybe a Vengorian Lord for the -1 to rend aura, which Nagash would also appreciate.

What's left to puzzle out, though, is how Supreme Lord and Skeleton Legion actually interact:

 

Quote

Supreme Lord of the Undead

If this unit is on the battlefield when you use an ability that returns slain models to a friendly Death unit, you can either re-roll the dice that determines the number of slain models returned to that unit or add 1 to the number of slain models that are returned to that unit.

 

Skeleton Legion

When you pick this unit to fight, roll a dice for each model in this unit that was slain in that phase. On a 4+, you can return that model to this unit.

My interpretation is this:

Supreme Lord fundamentally affect an ability, not a die roll. When it takes effect, you have two options: 1.: Reroll any dice that determine how many models are returned. 2.: Add one to the number of models returned by the ability. Not by individual die rolls! This part pertains to the ability as a whole.

So for Skeleton Legion, I would say you get to either reroll all your 4+ dice, since those determine the number of models returned to the unit, or you get to resurrect an extra skeleton at the end. That seems reasonable to me. It means Nagash will let you resurrect about 50% more skeletons on average, not simply all of them.

Also, with Invocation of Nagash you get to return 4 more models per round, plus another 4 for Invigoration Aura. Personally, I think a list built around new Nagash, skeletons and resurrecting SUMMONABLE units seems interesting. 8 Grave Guard per hero phase is nearly Legions of Nagash levels. The new abilites also mean you get 2 Direwolf, Black Knight and Fell Bat (lol) models per Invocation/Aura, so that's interesting.

 

[Ghoooouls]

6 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I suppose you could go Legion of Night and bring a general with the Battleshock immunity trait. Maybe a Vengorian Lord for the -1 to rend aura, which Nagash would also appreciate.

What's left to puzzle out, though, is how Supreme Lord and Skeleton Legion actually interact:

 

My interpretation is this:

Supreme Lord fundamentally affect an ability, not a die roll. When it takes effect, you have two options: 1.: Reroll any dice that determine how many models are returned. 2.: Add one to the number of models returned by the ability. Not by individual die rolls! This part pertains to the ability as a whole.

So for Skeleton Legion, I would say you get to either reroll all your 4+ dice, since those determine the number of models returned to the unit, or you get to resurrect an extra skeleton at the end. That seems reasonable to me. It means Nagash will let you resurrect about 50% more skeletons on average, not simply all of them.

Also, with Invocation of Nagash you get to return 4 more models per round, plus another 4 for Invigoration Aura. Personally, I think a list built around new Nagash, skeletons and resurrecting SUMMONABLE units seems interesting. 8 Grave Guard per hero phase is nearly Legions of Nagash levels. The new abilites also mean you get 2 Direwolf, Black Knight and Fell Bat (lol) models per Invocation/Aura, so that's interesting.

 

Personally I feel like you wouldn't reroll the dice, but you would get +1 for each 4+ roll...

Here's my reasoning - nagash's ability states you get to 'reroll the dice that determine how many slain models are returned'. The skeleton ability isn't isn't dice roll to determine how many are returned, but rather you roll 1 dice for each slain skeleton, and on a 4+ that model comes back. So if 1 skeleton died, you would roll 1 dice and on a 4+ that single skeleton returns, it isn't a dice roll to determine the number of slain models returned, but rather a roll to determine if that model returns, think of it as a 4+ roll, the model is either dead or it returns, not determining how many return.

When compared to abilities like soulblight heroes d3 roll, you're specifically rolling a d3 to determine how many models return.... I dunno its hard to explain what i mean, but it makes sense in my head. Definitely needs clarifying, and I'd be happy to play any way people think is right.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Ghoooouls

[Sutek]

I've just updated the app and Frightful Touch is back on the new Warscroll.  I assume it was an error that omitted it from the version on the downloadable update.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

18 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

Personally I feel like you wouldn't reroll the dice, but you would get +1 for each 4+ roll...

Here's my reasoning - nagash's ability states you get to 'reroll the dice that determine how many slain models are returned'. The skeleton ability isn't isn't dice roll to determine how many are returned, but rather you roll 1 dice for each slain skeleton, and on a 4+ that model comes back. So if 1 skeleton died, you would roll 1 dice and on a 4+ that single skeleton returns, it isn't a dice roll to determine the number of slain models returned, but rather a roll to determine if that model returns, think of it as a 4+ roll, the model is either dead or it returns, not determining how many return.

When compared to abilities like soulblight heroes d3 roll, you're specifically rolling a d3 to determine how many models return.... I dunno its hard to explain what i mean, but it makes sense in my head. Definitely needs clarifying, and I'd be happy to play any way people think is right.

I get exactly what you mean, and I went considered the same ideas when putting together my interpretation of how these rules interact. I think at first pass you are right to note that the 4+ roll is not a roll to determine the number of models returned viewed in isolation. It determines whether or not an individual skeleton is returned, not a how many are. I think arguing that it determines whether the number returned is 0 or 1 would be semantic trickery. But I ultimately arrived at the reading I did for the following reason: Supreme Lord of the Undead lets you reroll the dice (plural!) that determine how many models are returned. And I believe it's completely reasonable to say that the dice pool you roll for Skeleton Legion determines the number of models brought back with that ability. That's why I believe you get the reroll.

 

[Nightseer2012]

Well, I guess on the bright side of things, I like the idea of any of our units having the opportunity of a 5+ ward.  Mystic Shield and Death Magic Incarnate puts our Deathrattle at 4+/5++, and with Supreme Lord of the Undead, plenty of skeletons will be standing back up.  Obviously still relying on Grave Guard to do the killing, but with a 4+/5++, healing 4-8 models a turn, even normal skeletons can tarpit pretty high above their weight class.

[Doko]

Im so happy that my dilema betwen krondys vs nagash one month ago was won by the dragon....

 

Nagash is 100% useless now in vampires,dont get any buff of alegiances or soulbligth keyword,now is so much weak loosing the reeoll 1 and 6++ and his use that was a buff stick is also useless now.

A reroll1 to hit,save and inmune moral armywide was great but waste 1k points for a +1 to ward????it is a joke as bad it is.

I really dont see nothing good for nagash,around 12 damage output and 16 mortals if you can cast 8 arcanebolt(good luck with double 1 or enemy denyinb it).

So who really see playable waste 1k points for 28 damage output(really gonna be less but lets be good with luck) and 16 wounds with save 3 and 0 special save and a 4++ for mortals and you cant use any buff on him of alegiances neither reliks due to be named etc.

To me even at 700 i wouldnt use him but 950 is almost so overcosted as new twin dragons.

I hope he can be playable in nighthaunt and so you can have fun with your nagash,but he is 100% deleted and umplayable in soulbligths.

 

[Ghoooouls]

25 minutes ago, Nightseer2012 said:

Well, I guess on the bright side of things, I like the idea of any of our units having the opportunity of a 5+ ward.  Mystic Shield and Death Magic Incarnate puts our Deathrattle at 4+/5++, and with Supreme Lord of the Undead, plenty of skeletons will be standing back up.  Obviously still relying on Grave Guard to do the killing, but with a 4+/5++, healing 4-8 models a turn, even normal skeletons can tarpit pretty high above their weight class.

Yea this sort of thing is fun in theory, but you're spending 955 points for a mystic shield and 5+ ward on one unit... obviously nagash will do more than just that, but you'd be silly not to take portal for the hand of dust, so in reality he's actually 1035 points. You could have mannfred, neferata and belladama for that cost and still have points left over...

Outside of just using him for fun/as a gimmick I think he's kinda gone now for me.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

49 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

Yea this sort of thing is fun in theory, but you're spending 955 points for a mystic shield and 5+ ward on one unit... obviously nagash will do more than just that, but you'd be silly not to take portal for the hand of dust, so in reality he's actually 1035 points. You could have mannfred, neferata and belladama for that cost and still have points left over...

Outside of just using him for fun/as a gimmick I think he's kinda gone now for me.

The old Supreme Lord command was super good on anything that could hit and save on a 2+, but the new ability moving our 6+ ward to a 5+ is better on anything with a 4+ save or worse, if my math is correct. With that and the better healing, a SUMMONABLE heavy Nagash horde list might at least be worth checking out.

Still, the old ability with Blood Knights was probably better. The impact  when you build a list full of 2+ hit and save units is just greater. I doubt new Nagash will be as good competitively. Which I think was probably the point of the rewrite, so mission accomplished, I guess. But I don't agree that Nagash is worse to the point of being unusable now, like some are saying.

[Howdyhedberg]

So... Zombies can gain new models if they kill any models. Is it thereby a (minimal) chance that they go from 20 to 200?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

7 minutes ago, Howdyhedberg said:

So... Zombies can gain new models if they kill any models. Is it thereby a (minimal) chance that they go from 20 to 200?

This is exactly how they work.  Realistically though, they half of them die from being looked at wrong and the other half crumbles to battleshock before that happens.

[Nightseer2012]

23 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The old Supreme Lord command was super good on anything that could hit and save on a 2+, but the new ability moving our 6+ ward to a 5+ is better on anything with a 4+ save or worse, if my math is correct. With that and the better healing, a SUMMONABLE heavy Nagash horde list might at least be worth checking out.

Do you think it would be better to try and swing for more than one unit of GG in this kind of army, or just one BIG unit, and fill the rest of the map with skeletons/zombies so that the enemy army can't move, lol.  Either one would focus on getting the best out of Summonable, and just making your opponent lose because their arms are so tired from killing chumps.

[Ghoooouls]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The old Supreme Lord command was super good on anything that could hit and save on a 2+, but the new ability moving our 6+ ward to a 5+ is better on anything with a 4+ save or worse, if my math is correct. With that and the better healing, a SUMMONABLE heavy Nagash horde list might at least be worth checking out.

Still, the old ability with Blood Knights was probably better. The impact  when you build a list full of 2+ hit and save units is just greater. I doubt new Nagash will be as good competitively. Which I think was probably the point of the rewrite, so mission accomplished, I guess. But I don't agree that Nagash is worse to the point of being unusable now, like some are saying.

But the old ability hit your entire army, including nagash himself as well, so by far better than one unit getting a 5++

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, Ghoooouls said:

Yea this sort of thing is fun in theory, but you're spending 955 points for a mystic shield and 5+ ward on one unit... obviously nagash will do more than just that, but you'd be silly not to take portal for the hand of dust, so in reality he's actually 1035 points. You could have mannfred, neferata and belladama for that cost and still have points left over...

Outside of just using him for fun/as a gimmick I think he's kinda gone now for me.

Same. Which was unnecessary. 
why exactly is this giant of a death god wounding on 4s?

Why doesn‘t he count as 30 models on objectives?

mysteries upon mysteries.

[Ghoooouls]

47 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Same. Which was unnecessary. 
why exactly is this giant of a death god wounding on 4s?

Why doesn‘t he count as 30 models on objectives?

mysteries upon mysteries.

Why is the only death unit in the entire age of sigmar universe - that doesn't get a 6+ ward - the god of death himself haha.

So many questionable changes. I never even really used nagash, and don't own the model (tried him on TTS a few times), but it's just irritating to nerf him to the ground and minimally reduce his cost which is barely even noticeable. Such a shame.

Alas, rules are ever-changing. I'm sure he will get buffed again one day.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Ghoooouls

[Doko]

3 hours ago, Ghoooouls said:

But the old ability hit your entire army, including nagash himself as well, so by far better than one unit getting a 5++

Yes i  was say 100% the same,even id it is posible argue that a rerroll 1 of save vs a  +1 ward is the same.............but then we need ignore the fact that one was armywide and new is only 1 unit.

Also ignore the other fact of inmune moral and reroll 1 hit

Old ca was a 10\10 and new is a 4\10 so easy as that and is imposible compare it

[Honk]

10 hours ago, Ghoooouls said:

Why is the only death unit in the entire age of sigmar universe - that doesn't get a 6+ ward - the god of death himself haha.

Why did they fix the ward nonsense (wound or mortal wound) in the errata, just to specifically turn back to stupid on his warscroll?!?

I though I got used to GDubs oversights and cannot be bothered rules, but then they „amaze“ again 🙈🙄😝

an expensive but beautiful (if on likes hats) centerpiece, with awesome fluff gets struck from the table (again)…

merry x-mas 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

12 hours ago, Ghoooouls said:

But the old ability hit your entire army, including nagash himself as well, so by far better than one unit getting a 5++

 

9 hours ago, Doko said:

Yes i  was say 100% the same,even id it is posible argue that a rerroll 1 of save vs a  +1 ward is the same.............but then we need ignore the fact that one was armywide and new is only 1 unit.

Also ignore the other fact of inmune moral and reroll 1 hit

Old ca was a 10\10 and new is a 4\10 so easy as that and is imposible compare it

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying new Nagash is better than old, or even on the same level. He's worse and probably overcosted. And the old Blood Knight list is 100% dead.

I just don't think Nagash is completely uncompetitive now. I think the SUMMONABLE list could be cool. If someone really figures it out, I think a 4-1 is probably in the cards.

Nagash took some nerfs. That much is clear. But he also gained some new tools like the new Supreme Lord which I think are at least worth checking out.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 hours ago, Nightseer2012 said:

Do you think it would be better to try and swing for more than one unit of GG in this kind of army, or just one BIG unit, and fill the rest of the map with skeletons/zombies so that the enemy army can't move, lol.  Either one would focus on getting the best out of Summonable, and just making your opponent lose because their arms are so tired from killing chumps.

I would personally start with 30 skeletons ans 20 Grave Guard and go from there. That actually does not leave much room in the list. If you run another 30 skeletons that forces you to bring battleshock protection. If you bring another 20 Grave Guard that necessitates a Wight King general.

Personally, I want to try emulating the Nagash plus 80 skeletons lists of AoS 1. So I would probably go with 2x30 skeletons and 20 grave guard and try to grind out my victories. Heroes, artefacts and command traits still to be decided.

[Sception]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

So I would probably go with 2x30 skeletons and 20 grave guard

That's too many reinforcements for a 2k list.

[Nightseer2012]

9 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Personally, I want to try emulating the Nagash plus 80 skeletons lists of AoS 1. So I would probably go with 2x30 skeletons and 20 grave guard and try to grind out my victories. Heroes, artefacts and command traits still to be decided.

So Nagash, 3x 20 Skeletons, 1x20 GG, a Vampire Lord, and Umbral Spellportal gets you to 1955.  I like the idea of LoB to give the Lord Soulbound Garments and Arcane Expertise.  Soul-Crushing contempt meshes well with LoB and Nagash’s spells, but that really depends what army your fighting.

Or easily go Vyrkos to get the +1 to wound on the GG, Sangsyron on the Lord and go for extra choppiness.

Either way, it is all Summonable, so your getting those bodies back.  All depends if your aiming for “fun vs winning” I suppose.