AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Liquidsteel]

2 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Yeah I think it's a matter of playstyle and situation.  Skellies would be better against certain melee matchups but wolves might be more consistent overall. I think have a hard time seeing an army with 4inch move infantry push out. Yes you can ambush 2x20 man Zombies but you may just get pinned in your deployment zone with the 30 skellies and GG. 

I think it would be matchup dependent but against top armies I dont see the Necro giving you much, even though I wish he could. 

Yeah maybe. Though the lists are one drop so you have the option to go first and set up, ready to probably receive a double. Necro hopefully starts outside 30". The list has lifeswarm also to maximise recursion. 

Grave guard go in the grave usually for me, popping out 2.1" behind zombies that also pop out.

It is all theoretical, I'm probably going to end up gravitating to Kastelai once I get my blood knight count up to at least 15. 

 

[Warbossironteef]

42 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Yeah maybe. Though the lists are one drop so you have the option to go first and set up, ready to probably receive a double. Necro hopefully starts outside 30". The list has lifeswarm also to maximise recursion. 

Grave guard go in the grave usually for me, popping out 2.1" behind zombies that also pop out.

It is all theoretical, I'm probably going to end up gravitating to Kastelai once I get my blood knight count up to at least 15. 

 

Been waiting to pounce on some BK too... I can only practice games on TTS for so long lol. 

[Craze]

I have a game against BCR coming up and am trying to brainstorm what would be a good list to bring these damn Ogors down.

I guess Belladama is not that great, as Lycancurse will be just D3 damage with almost no chance of spawning wolves. Am thinking of bringing the Big Ol' Bonebag himself, as he can really debuff the sh** out of them and really making these 4+ Hit Rolls even worse. As Ogors really want to come at you quickly and charge I would like to have minimum one small unit like Fell Bats in the grave to force him to keep stuff on the backline objectives. What would you think is the better hammer against BCR, GG or BK? And which heroes are worth bringing?

 

Thanks!

[Honk]

1 hour ago, Craze said:

What would you think is the better hammer against BCR, GG or BK? And which heroes are worth bringing?

Haven’t played against them yet, but „yes“… blood knights are solid tanks and with riders of ruin very mobile. Can’t overrun the ogors, but could fly over your own guards or wolves.

20 guards are a mean blender with a wightking and a Necromancer, but they are also kinda brittle. If they get shot to pieces by leadbelchers

the real trouble are probably the big bois, with all the save and healing, they could be a real pain to deal with.🧐 Double dragon / vhordrai  might do the trick, luckily the snowball got nerfed.

belladamma is still nice, the „killing moon“ exploding 6s. but I really like raduka, for his +1 attack for SB within 18“. Together with a unit of bloodknights or guards, things could get messy quick.

[Warbossironteef]

Its a good game for Necro because they dont have great unbinds for his spell.

30xSkellies would be really good this game. Zombies are okay but they wont get any back because Ogors dont have large infantry units. 

IMO Mannfred would is MVP in melee matchups. They have no real answers for him. He can do a lot and threaten their backline and weaker units. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

7 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Zombies are okay but they wont get any back because Ogors dont have large infantry units. 

I think zombies are probably better against high-save units on a large base than against large infantry units. Because against large base models they actually get in lots of attacks and can start to deal significant numbers of mortals. Let's not forget that zombies deal the same damage as LRL Sentinels, just up close, and everyone constantly fears having their monsters deleted by those guys.

[Honk]

36 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

zombies are probably better against high-save units on a large base

Not sure if I like the idea of zombies… if they get the alpha, they are probably brutal, wrapping around the whole model activating twice.

But getting charged by a lord on stonehorn? There won’t be much left to activate 🤨

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, Honk said:

Not sure if I like the idea of zombies… if they get the alpha, they are probably brutal, wrapping around the whole model activating twice.

But getting charged by a lord on stonehorn? There won’t be much left to activate 🤨

On the plus side, you will make that FLoSH overpay for their rend, Metalcruncher will be useless and you are only feeding 115 point units of Zombies to their 430 point monster truck. They may wipe a unit per turn, but will still struggle to make their points back.

If I am not wrong a FLoSH deals about 20 damage to a unit of Zombies without buffs. A unit of 20 Zombies with +1 attack and Vanhel's would deal ~12 mortal wounds back. I think this could in theory be pretty good, but I don't know how it will actually work out on the table.

[Warbossironteef]

1 hour ago, Honk said:

Not sure if I like the idea of zombies… if they get the alpha, they are probably brutal, wrapping around the whole model activating twice.

But getting charged by a lord on stonehorn? There won’t be much left to activate 🤨

I just played this matchup and I had 120 Zombies. They did okay. The units that got charged did their job and hung on for a round of combat and then came back to life (I had Gorslav). I was lucky and we rolled the mission that makes your battleline the primary objective takers so they we really important for that mission.

I did get to pile in twice once and it was good. Killed a bunch of Yhettis and a Butcher, but Zombies are there to die and hold objectives. I wouldn't put all my resources into them to do dmg.

[swarmofseals]

On 7/22/2021 at 3:43 PM, Obeisance said:

The hell does Soulblight DO against a monster like that? Tarpit?

The same thing every other list does: keep it away from your critical stuff and try to kill everything else/win on objectives.

I don't know that there is any army out there that can reliably kill Archaon if the Archaon player is careful. Just try to minimize his damage by zoning him out, retreating during your turn if he is engaged etc.

On 7/25/2021 at 8:33 AM, Warbossironteef said:

I think that would be a really solid list. I've been thinking about branching out into Nagash as well. 

I got some more games in and I can tell you that the necromancer against most armies will not be getting his spell off. Specifically in a Nagash list your opponents, any decent one, will save dispells. Necromancer is cheap and durable but usually fails do anything in  my games. It's such a shame he doesn't get the rerolling of Vyrkos.

 The best thing about him is he is cheap and can use Pack Alpha, which is amazing. That said, i think a different version of your Nagash list has legs too. I really like Bella with Nagash because she can help disrupte some shooting armies. Also, Direwolves are good substitutes for 30x skellies. They get to a 4+ rerolling 1s, are faster, 10 more wounds and can fight better. That said the new coherency rules make positioning more challenging, but not impossible. 

Seems crazy to forgo a artefact and Command trait but Bella is so much better than Necromancer I dont think it matters. I also went with BKs over GG because they are faster, tougher and much more independent.

Just figured I share some other Nagash ideas! I love the idea of Necro and Skellies plus GG, but his spell is just so freaking unreliable and those units really need the buffs.

Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (970) in Battle Regiment
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
UNITS
20 x Dire Wolves (270)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
TOTAL: 1995/2000

I've been getting in some reps with Nagash and enjoying it a lot. So far I have used two builds:

Build 1:

Spoiler

Vyrkos Dynasty

Nagash

Necromancer (general, pack alpha, amulet, overwhelming dread)

Radukar the Wolf (pinions)

2 Kosargi Nightguard

2x40 Zombies

1x20 Zombies

Spellportal

1 Drop Battle Regiment

Build 2:

Spoiler

Legion of Night

Nagash

Necromancer (general, Master of Magic, Morbheg's Claw, Levitate)

Radukar the Beast

2x20 Zombies

1x40 Zombies

Spellportal

Lifeswarm

2 Drop Battle Regiment

This can alternately be built with lil Raddie and either 2 nightguard and 3 bats or 4 nightguard as a 1 drop

I found that you're 100% correct about the Necromancer in Vyrkos. Vanhels very rarely resolved. I also even ran into some issues with Nagash against heavy anti-magic like Seraphon. If he gets bracketed down to +2 or even +1 to cast it's very hard for him to recover, and this really limits your tactical flexibility.

With the Vyrkos build I was typically swimming in CP and rarely if ever ran out. I've only gotten one game in with the second list so far but when going first in a battle round it was definitely a bit constraining (particularly the first round where you want to use Nagash's CA and Radukar's summon.

The Legion of Night version gives you a MUCH better chance of resolving Vanhels and can even help Nagash out against heavy anti magic/bracketing. I hate losing Pack Alpha, but I think it might be worth it.

Just cobbled together a solid victory against Idoneth in which I miscast on Nagash on his second spell on turn 1 and then got double turned 1->2 XD.

Overall I'm not super sold on Belladamma in a Nagash list. I'm just not afraid of shooting against Nagash except a Lumineth list that is bringing a lot of sentinels, and Belladamma doesn't help so much against that given the 4+ spell ignore and 5+ ward. Most shooting is rend 1 at best, which is easy to negate with All out Defense. You can even ignore rend 2 once per game with Finest Hour. Even a double volley from Morathi Stalkers is only 5 mortal wounds on average. Very easy to heal through.

[Kaizennus]

Interestingly, I too have some games this weekend against Ogors (one against the Beastclaw guys and the other I "think" is a gutbuster style army). I've never played them before so I've researching and trying to theorycraft a list up too.

My thoughts on facing Beastclaw:

Originally I was thinking of a heavy Grave Guard style list with lots of support buffs. From my understanding, the ogors can't do much to stop you from getting spells or CA off so you'll be free to buff up your GG with Vanhel's, Killing Moon, Feast, etc. Grave Guard hit hard and the ogors are going to want to get into melee so you don't have to worry too much about moving around.

There are however, two problems I see with this list. First, it seems that the Beastclaw get some buffs when facing large units (larger than 10 models, and larger than 20 models), so you'll be feeding into that. Secondly, their big models count as 10, which makes grabbing objective pretty tough. If you try to swarm objectives with zombies and GG you will take lots of casualties so my fear would be that by the later turns, even if you kill a good chunk of their army you won't be able to contest too many objectives and they might be able to sit on a couple and beat you out on points. You're also going to need to deal with some nasty battleshock on the charge rounds if they take out lots of models.

An alternative to this list would be to go Kastelai I think. Prince V. is definitely going to hit hard enough lay the beatdown on some of their units, and this is one matchup where I could actually see him surviving quite a while due to lack of strong shooting and magic. I'm not sure how well blood knights will do. Perhaps buffed they might be able to take on their big beasties, at least if it's a 2 on 1 situation. The biggest problem here is you are going to suffer hard on controlling objectives. You won't be able to contest anything on the map with a single unit, and even two units. That means you basically need to take out a significant portion of their army to stand a chance in points.

I'm not sure, but maybe a more control styled horde army could work too. Put a bunch of bodies on the board supported by heroes who can pretty much free cast all game. Perhaps add in something like shackles and actually use lots of MSU to just screen your objectives. Make those giant monsters waste turn after turn just crashing into units of zombies and skeletons while you hold off objectives as long as possible. Have Mannfred running around threatening enemy objectives and possibly screening some of your own.

[Obeisance]

I think the only way we're going to get magic off is to spamcast. Have more casts than they have denies.

And yeah, with Archaeon's reroll sixes- I don't actual know how we put him down. I feel like just limit what he kills is the only answer. 

How is Nagash in SB? I picked him up yesterday.

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 hours ago, Obeisance said:

I think the only way we're going to get magic off is to spamcast. Have more casts than they have denies.

And yeah, with Archaeon's reroll sixes- I don't actual know how we put him down. I feel like just limit what he kills is the only answer. 

How is Nagash in SB? I picked him up yesterday.

 

I just made a thread about Nagash yesterday

Personally, I think he looks like he has all the tools to be good, but I find him very hard to build lists around in practice.

[Honk]

32 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

but I find him very hard to build lists around in practice.

I beg to differ, 1k Soulblight might be a bit tricky with battlelines, but gives a bunch of different approaches.

in my casual environment I find it tricky to actually field him without people being reluctant to play 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 minutes ago, Honk said:

I beg to differ, 1k Soulblight might be a bit tricky with battlelines, but gives a bunch of different approaches.

in my casual environment I find it tricky to actually field him without people being reluctant to play 

What I find hard to do with Nagash is finding a good balance between offense and bodies. Nagash brings this inherent tension with him in Soulblight lists, where he wants elite units for his CA buffs, but wants SUMMONABLE units for his Invocation. Plus, you know, bodies because he's 1000 points.

He does not have that problem in OBR where he can heal anything including himself.

[Honk]

5 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

finding a good balance between offense and bodies

That’s why my brilliant list came with Radukar the beast and wolves 😎

But the dilemma is real, you want to bring knights and guards, but can only afford wolves and rabble 😅

But wolves are tanky and kinda decent during charges, mobile… of course double knights in kasteleii sounds funky
wightking with necromancer with Guards are also cool.  

 

but it is a tricky conundrum nonetheless 

[Raptor_Jesues]

I am having a bit of an hard time with lumineth and steampunk dorfs and for a bit i mean that they absolutely table me. For Vlad's sake, i lost vhordrai in a single turn of damn elf archers. I dont know how much i can do to pull out somethin in this meta between the stupid ass shooting, blasting magic and invincible gods without gettin on their level (WHICH I SHALL NEVER DO). 
In case you ask, i was going kastelai with vhordrai, Vengo lord, the beast, 4x5 bloodknights and 10 direwolves (plus 10 from the beast). I would put in belladama to tarpit people with wolves but i feel like she is going to get shot immediatly. Any suggestions?

Edited July 27, 2021 by Raptor_Jesues

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

28 minutes ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

I am having a bit of an hard time with lumineth and steampunk dorfs and for a bit i mean that they absolutely table me. For Vlad's sake, i lost vhordrai in a single turn of damn elf archers. I dont know how much i can do to pull out somethin in this meta between the stupid ass shooting, blasting magic and invincible gods without gettin on their level (WHICH I SHALL NEVER DO). 
In case you ask, i was going kastelai with vhordrai, Vengo lord, the beast, 4x5 bloodknights and 10 direwolves (plus 10 from the beast). I would put in belladama to tarpit people with wolves but i feel like she is going to get shot immediatly. Any suggestions?

Are you currently trying to get first turn? Because it seems to me you definitely want to get first turn with this list. You are at three drops with battle regiment if I am not wrong.

If you end up being out-dropped and get shot at it might be worth it to use Finest Hour on Vhordrai right away. It might look like a bit of a waste at first glance, but it's a way to get another defense buff before your first hero phase. Not much help against Sentinels, of course, but should help against KO.

It's hard to say how much work Belladamma would do against Lumineth. If you bring her, you will probably have to drop Radukar for her and Spell Portal. That would leave you with just enough points for an extra unit of Fell Bats without bringing your drops up (Belladamma is a sub-commander). That would at least be two extra pieces of anti-shooting tech.

[Raptor_Jesues]

8 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Are you currently trying to get first turn? Because it seems to me you definitely want to get first turn with this list. You are at three drops with battle regiment if I am not wrong. yup, that is the usual plan, i need those 10 wolves on the field asap

If you end up being out-dropped and get shot at it might be worth it to use Finest Hour on Vhordrai right away. It might look like a bit of a waste at first glance, but it's a way to get another defense buff before your first hero phase. Not much help against Sentinels, of course, but should help against KO. that sounds reasonable enough, nice point

It's hard to say how much work Belladamma would do against Lumineth. If you bring her, you will probably have to drop Radukar for her and Spell Portal. That would leave you with just enough points for an extra unit of Fell Bats without bringing your drops up (Belladamma is a sub-commander). That would at least be two extra pieces of anti-shooting tech. how about dropping vhordrai instead? That would give me some space

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

@Raptor_Jesues

If you are willing to drop Vhordrai, you have a lot more breathing room. You could bring both Belladamma with Spell Portal and Radukar while still having extra room for (dare I say it?) another unit of Blood Knights.

It might be worth thinking about really pushing for that 1 or 2 drop, though. It's tough, because 1 drop requires you to choose only one of Vhordrai, the Vengorian and Radukar. Two drop is more managable, though, you can almost always get there with two Battle Regiments. I just realized that bringing Belladamma allows you to do that, actually, so bringing her instead of one of the big boys gets you to two drops.

[Raptor_Jesues]

4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

@Raptor_Jesues

If you are willing to drop Vhordrai, you have a lot more breathing room. You could bring both Belladamma with Spell Portal and Radukar while still having extra room for (dare I say it?) another unit of Blood Knights.

It might be worth thinking about really pushing for that 1 or 2 drop, though. It's tough, because 1 drop requires you to choose only one of Vhordrai, the Vengorian and Radukar. Two drop is more managable, though, you can almost always get there with two Battle Regiments. I just realized that bringing Belladamma allows you to do that, actually, so bringing her instead of one of the big boys gets you to two drops.

sir, are you suggesting that i bring 25 bloodknights to battle? Because i sure will

[Raptor_Jesues]

Something like this is pretty much what was talked about. Not gonna lie, it looks rather thight even though i am mildly annoyed by not bringing vhordrai. It also gives me a fair shot at a triumph wich is nice

 
SOULBLIGHT GRAVELORDS, KASTELAI LINEAGE 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LEADERS
Vengorian Lord 280pts (x)
Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
General 
Command Trait: Inspiring Commander
Artifact of Power: Fragment of the Keep

Radukar the Beast 315pts

Belladama Volga 200pts (x)
Lore of the Vampires: Spirit Gale

UNITS 
5x Bloodknights 195pts (x)

5x Bloodknights 195pts (x)

5x Bloodknights 195pts (x)

5x Bloodknights 195pts (x)

5x Bloodknights 195pts (x)

10x Direwolves 135pts (x)

ENDLESS SPELLS
Umbral Spellportal 70pts

BATTALION
Battle Regiment (x)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOT 1975pts

Edited July 27, 2021 by Raptor_Jesues

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

44 minutes ago, Raptor_Jesues said:

Something like this is pretty much what was talked about. Not gonna lie, it looks rather thight even though i am mildly annoyed by not bringing vhordrai. It also gives me a fair shot at a triumph wich is nice

 
SOULBLIGHT GRAVELORDS, KASTELAI LINEAGE 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LEADERS
Vengorian Lord 280pts (x)
Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
General 
Command Trait: Inspiring Commander
Artifact of Power: Fragment of the Keep

Radukar the Beast 315pts

Belladama Volga 200pts (x)
Lore of the Vampires: Spirit Gale

UNITS 
5x Bloodknights 195pts (x)

5x Bloodknights 195pts (x)

5x Bloodknights 195pts (x)

5x Bloodknights 195pts (x)

5x Bloodknights 195pts (x)

10x Direwolves 135pts (x)

ENDLESS SPELLS
Umbral Spellportal 70pts

BATTALION
Battle Regiment (x)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOT 1975pts

I'd do two battle regiments if I were you. That allows you to deploy the list in two medium-sized chunks instead of one big chunk and Radukar on his own.

Otherwise, peak list building!

[Raptor_Jesues]

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I'd do two battle regiments if I were you. That allows you to deploy the list in two medium-sized chunks instead of one big chunk and Radukar on his own.

Otherwise, peak list building!

good point, ill split the bloodknights in two, hope i dont suck too much

[Craze]

On 7/26/2021 at 9:57 AM, Honk said:

20 guards are a mean blender with a wightking and a Necromancer, but they are also kinda brittle. If they get shot to pieces by leadbelchers

He has only Cows and Mammoths, so no Leadbelchers.

I guess, I will try something like this:

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Legion of Blood
- Mortal Realm: Shyish
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery

LEADERS
Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (970) in Battle Regiment
Vampire Lord (140) in Battle Regiment
- General
- Command Trait: Aristocracy of Blood
- Artefact: Orb of Enchantment
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
 

UNITS
30 x Deathrattle Skeletons (255) in Battle Regiment
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115) in Battle Regiment
20 x Grave Guard (280) in Battle Regiment
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
10 x Deathrattle Skeletons (85) in Battle Regiment
3 x Fell Bats (75) in Battle Regiment
 

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
Umbral Spellportal (70)