Kragnos discussion

[C0deb1ue]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

He can be buffed by abilities and spells that target "friendly units".

I mean this is technically true, but in practicality I was referring to his lack of keywords. There isnt much going on in the "friendly units" catagory.

Edited May 25, 2021 by C0deb1ue

[Izotzuhure]

I think his points should be closer to Gotrek's than Archaon's. Kragnos has the potential to deal a ton of damage but it can be quite vulnerable to non-magical MWs and doesn't interact with any faction. 

540 or something like that would be ok. 

[Nezzhil]

13 hours ago, Beliman said:

Thinking about abilities to help Kragnos in doing his things. Maybe with Thunderbelly Ogres?

• Thunderbellies with a priest casting Keening Gale (+3" movement)
• Butcher near a Maw Pot casting Coggs (+2" movement and +2" charge)
• Give  Grease-smeared Tusks (+1" charge ) to the Butcher -Kragnos base size should keep him within butcher's range.

That should give 13" move and  2D6" + 3"  charge=23" average threat range. Not sure if it's any good but seems fun.

 

He can't be benefited from allegiance abilities that includes artefacts. He can only be affected by friendly warscroll abilities and spells, so I think Madcap Shaman is the only guy that can help him directly.

[C0deb1ue]

Just now, Nezzhil said:

He can't be benefited from allegiance abilities that includes artefacts. He can only be affected by friendly warscroll abilities and spells, so I think Madcap Shaman is the only guy that can help him directly.

And Gordrakk?

[Nezzhil]

Just now, C0deb1ue said:

And Gordrakk?

Yeah, Gordrakk too but Gordrakk's ability is a bit meme to use with Kragnos. That is the motive I didn't consider Gordrakk in my previous post.

[C0deb1ue]

Just now, Nezzhil said:

Yeah, Gordrakk too but Gordrakk's ability is a bit meme to use with Kragnos. That is the motive I didn't consider Gordrakk in my previous post.

It would be a weird army to have both!

[Rors]

1 hour ago, Izotzuhure said:

I think his points should be closer to Gotrek's than Archaon's. Kragnos has the potential to deal a ton of damage but it can be quite vulnerable to non-magical MWs and doesn't interact with any faction. 

540 or something like that would be ok. 

At 540 points he's insanely OP. A frostlord is generally considered S tier in the monster catagory and goes for about 400. This big boy would one shot a frostlord no issue.

He'll be in the 600-800 range and obviously his broken realms book will add support pieces/a new faction mechanic for him.

 

[Beliman]

28 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

He can't be benefited from allegiance abilities that includes artefacts. He can only be affected by friendly warscroll abilities and spells, so I think Madcap Shaman is the only guy that can help him directly.

Ouch, I thought that he was like Gotrek, you could still target him with "friendly unit" or "friendly monster" abilities/spells/prayers even if he didn't have the option to take that keywords and/or allegiance.

That means that he can only use Triumphs, generic CAs and Mad Cap Shamman/Gordrakk abilities? That's waaaaaaaay worse than Gotrek.

[Rors]

43 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Ouch, I thought that he was like Gotrek, you could still target him with "friendly unit" or "friendly monster" abilities/spells/prayers even if he didn't have the option to take that keywords and/or allegiance.

That means that he can only use Triumphs, generic CAs and Mad Cap Shamman/Gordrakk abilities? That's waaaaaaaay worse than Gotrek.

Gotrek is movement 4. After a certain damage cap you're deleting pretty much anything and it's all about increasing survivability, movement and activations.

Kraggy is movement 10. The old Gotrek combo was throw cogs at him, he didn't really get much else with synergies. Kraggy + cogs is waaaaay better. Even without extra support (which he is obviously getting) putting him at the 500 point mark is ludicrous.

Everyone is still complaining that he lacks synergy when his release is coming with an entire rule book centered around him that they haven't seen.

I'd wait until I see his broken realms rules before commenting on how synergistic he is.

 

[CarkFish]

59 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Ouch, I thought that he was like Gotrek, you could still target him with "friendly unit" or "friendly monster" abilities/spells/prayers even if he didn't have the option to take that keywords and/or allegiance.

That means that he can only use Triumphs, generic CAs and Mad Cap Shamman/Gordrakk abilities? That's waaaaaaaay worse than Gotrek.

When people say Gotrek.... do they actually mean that wee dwarf fella.... or do they mean Gordrakk?

[Beliman]

25 minutes ago, CarkFish said:

When people say Gotrek.... do they actually mean that wee dwarf fella.... or do they mean Gordrakk?

I was talking about our not-so-friendly dwarf dude..

Gotrek can be an ally for any Order army (as Kragnos for Destruccion) and he is all about killing stuff. Same pattern as Kragnos (minus +1 bravery bubble). But Gotrek can be buffed by spells and abilities that target friendly units/heroes.

Kragnos has a "cannot use or benefit..." rule that just makes him only available for Triumphs, generic CAs, Endless Spells and Mad cap shaman spell and Gordrakk CA.

Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to read BR: Kragnos and know everything about this dude. It's just that I didn't expect this type of rule for big pony-boy!

[Reuben Parker]

Anyone saying he should be 500+ doesn’t understand how easy he will be to screen off and how easy he is to kill without a shrug. The 2+ save is only great vs rend 1 and lower. Any MW or higher end attacks put him down super fast. 
 

even at 400 he would be a tough take. 9 spear eels average kill him, HGB with pole axes, lumineth in general, KO in general. Skink MW spam. Big A himself. Essentially if you look at all the high placing armies they can easily kill him bar spell based DoT and catapult OBR. 
 

If a model is slow, can’t avoid screens and lacks utility beyond being a beat stick it can’t have a high PPW value and be worth fielding. Now maybe AoS3 gives us some generic MW save CA / healing etc and then the balance shifts but currently even at say 20 PPW for 360 he still wouldn’t be greatly efficient. 

[Mutton]

Strengths:

• Awesome combat damage
• Can theoretically one-shot monsters on a charge
• Great magic resistance
• 2+ save is handy against basic troops

Weaknesses:

• 10" with no fly. His maneuverability is pretty bad on a base that size.
• Only counts as 1 on objectives 
• No ward save. Tons of units in the game have ways to deal non-magic mortals.
• Bellowing Rage hits our own units for some reason? Means you have to deploy away from and can't support within 6" of this dude. Incredibly annoying to play around and can actually murder your own smaller destruction heroes. This also means his Icon of Destruction is effectively useless.
• No command abilities or support functions in any way.
• No real role for Destruction other than "smash," and Destro already has plenty of cheap options for that.

Points are really going to make or break this guy. He has a ton of weaknesses, with his only real strength being his charge/combat damage. If he's around 450-500 points, he'll be usable in casual games. If he's closer to 600 or more, you'll rarely see him on a table. I'll probably be getting him just because I like the model--unless they decide he's 700+ points or something ridiculous...then my viewpoint might change.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Mutton

[rosa]

360 points?

some people…

[Ragest]

3 minutes ago, Mutton said:

Tons of units in the game have ways to deal non-magic mortals. Ex., Two units of Lumineth Sentinels will kill him on turn 1.

Let's talk about that. How many units can kill him in 1 turn? I think just 20 Stalkers with double tap shooting, 20 Hearthguard fighting twice and Kairos-Archaon. 

[Mutton]

12 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Let's talk about that. How many units can kill him in 1 turn? I think just 20 Stalkers with double tap shooting, 20 Hearthguard fighting twice and Kairos-Archaon. 

It's not really just about one-shotting him. Think of the countless units that do mortals on 6's, on charges, to things near them...and you get an idea for the amount of free damage Krag is going to take pretty quickly. Couple that with the fact that he has no healing and is quite slow for a monster, he's not always going to get the charge, and could quite easily be on the receiving end of other heavy hitters.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Mutton

[Reuben Parker]

18 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Let's talk about that. How many units can kill him in 1 turn? I think just 20 Stalkers with double tap shooting, 20 Hearthguard fighting twice and Kairos-Archaon. 

9 spear eels, skink MW spam, buffed new zombie blob, even a gatebreaker mega with +2 trait and exploding 6s with +1 to hit heroes (the best setup in a breaker tribe) would most likely kill him on the charge never mind once you add in the shooting. FEC double fight terrorgheist 

 

18 wounds is not great even on a 2+. In AoS there are very few units that are truly hard to kill. 
 

As I said in my earlier post unless AoS3 brings some big balance changes virtually every top army can handle him pretty easily. As such he shouldn’t be at all expensive. 

[Reuben Parker]

26 minutes ago, rosa said:

360 points?

some people…

Give reasoned arguments why a model shouldn’t pay more than 20 PPW, none of which you tried to deconstruct. He’s a big beat stick which will be hard to get into combat and then 2+ save and anti spell are his only special defensive features. As I pointed out nearly every top build can drop him fairly easily. 
 

now yes if you are playing an army with few screens and low MW or higher than rend 1 output you will struggle vs him but that’s true facing a lot of armies. 

[Beliman]

3 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

As I pointed out nearly every top build can drop him fairly easily. 

Imho, I ignore "top tier armies" to try to make an estimation of points. I prefer to use middle-road armies and I think that something between 550 and 650 could be the right spot for Kragnos.

[Reuben Parker]

6 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Imho, I ignore "top tier armies" to try to make an estimation of points. I prefer to use middle-road armies and I think that something between 550 and 650 could be the right spot for Kragnos.

Which is fine, but at 550 to 650 do you think he would be playable at tournaments? At over 30 PPW with no shrug and no healing. Unless AoS 3 brings wide scale changes, giving him 2+ save and no shrug, no healing he’s in a very funny place. Good lists will demolish him very efficiently and if he’s pointed to be a fair pick there then lower tier will struggle vs him. Or if he’s pointed higher he’s just a liability vs good lists. 
 

if we look at new vampires which you can tell are written with AoS3 in mind. 195 gets great damage output blood knights that can skip screens. 230 gets you 40 zombies who natively put out MW and can be buffed to insane damage properties. So if this is the AoS3 baseline I can’t ratify him being expensive. 

[Rors]

50 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

Anyone saying he should be 500+ doesn’t understand how easy he will be to screen off and how easy he is to kill without a shrug. The 2+ save is only great vs rend 1 and lower. Any MW or higher end attacks put him down super fast. 
 

even at 400 he would be a tough take.
 

 

As mentioned earlier, at 400 points you can take a frostlord on stonehorn with is one of the most points efficient warscrolls for a monster in the game. People win tournaments off the back of stonehorn frostlords. This guy is objectively better than a stonehorn.

I agree that he's easily screened. In an army that can't support him, he's probably a trap to take. That factors into his costs but you also need to factor in that he can delete a vast majority of units very quickly. You don't bring his price down because he's easily countered you build synergies into his faction (which I strongly think we'll see in the broken realms book) that create tactically meaning options for the game.

Stuff like Sentinel spam is trash and creates scissors paper rock game and shouldn't be used as a basis for ballanced points or game design.

 

[Beliman]

9 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

Which is fine, but at 550 to 650 do you think he would be playable at tournaments? At over 30 PPW with no shrug and no healing. Unless AoS 3 brings wide scale changes, giving him 2+ save and no shrug, no healing he’s in a very funny place. Good lists will demolish him very efficiently and if he’s pointed to be a fair pick there then lower tier will struggle vs him. Or if he’s pointed higher he’s just a liability vs good lists. 

When you talk about "playable", you mean just be... playable? Like legal unit that can be fun (and supported warscroll) to play? Or you mean a competitive army that tries to make a 5-0 and win the tournament?

If it's the first case, yes, I completely agree.
If it's the second, probably not. But this argument doesn't have enough weight for me to make an estimated value for Kragnos (as I already said, I look only to middle of the road armies and units).

Edited May 25, 2021 by Beliman

[Drazhoath]

19 minutes ago, Rors said:

Stuff like Sentinel spam is trash and creates scissors paper rock game and shouldn't be used as a basis for ballanced points or game design.

 

Sry but AoS ever was a scissor paper rock game and will stay. And builds like sentinel spam, horror spam, blightking spam,… is reality.

[Rors]

19 minutes ago, Drazhoath said:

Sry but AoS ever was a scissor paper rock game and will stay. And builds like sentinel spam, horror spam, blightking spam,… is reality.

There's a difference between units archtypes that counter other units and poor game design.

Some of those examples are poor game design. Poor game design isn't the benchmark for what a competitive unit should look like. If you want to play rock paper scissors, save your self a lot of time and go play rock paper scissors. The game will always have ballance issues but why would you want the game to be worse? Also I disagree that GW has no interest in improving their game system, especially now that they're promoting a competitive tournament circuit that's GW branded. It's in their interest to improve the game and avoid negative play experiences created through poorly thought-out warscrolls.

Of course none of this means Kraggy won't be incorrectly pointed, but the discussion is about where the correct points would be for competitive play (with the tangent that OP units aren't a benchmark for competitive games - they're the bench mark for lists that win without much competition, if we followed that path, every new release should be zero points because that's maximized 'competitiveness').

Edited May 25, 2021 by Rors

[Mutton]

45 minutes ago, Rors said:

As mentioned earlier, at 400 points you can take a frostlord on stonehorn with is one of the most points efficient warscrolls for a monster in the game. People win tournaments off the back of stonehorn frostlords. This guy is objectively better than a stonehorn.

This is certainly debatable. Stonehorns are great because 1) They can take and deal loads of damage 2) Be anywhere quickly 3) Count as 10 on objectives (the most crucial aspect of their success). And Mawtribes aren't even close to the top leaderboards in tournaments. Occasionally they eek out a win somewhere, but in most tournament results they fall in the middle.

Kragnos statistically does more damage, but not that much more when you include mount traits, artifacts, and charge bonuses. The difference is only a few wounds. He's also slower, can't benefit from any other spells or effects, and, most importantly, doesn't count as 10. I think you could argue that the Stonehorn is actually much more competitively viable than Krag.

Big numbers on a statline or weapon profile do not necessarily make a strong unit in a game mostly about objectives, synergies, and movement.