Endless Spells Loophole

[kozokus]

Simple :
If i cast one of the following :
The Dais Arcanum
The Arachnocauldron
The sanctum of amyntok

Extract from the rules : "An endless spell model cannot be moved unless it is a predatory endless spell "

Can i move?
RAW : No, non predatory endles spells models cannot be moved.
Complete answer : the caster can still move around the immobile endless spell.

Change my mind.

PS : I don't care you have mouvement 12 from Dais or fusionned profile with movement or RAI. Just tell me that something allows you to move the endless spell model.

[Ganigumo]

Endless spell rules state:

Quote

An endless spell model cannot be moved unless it is a predatory endless spell (see opposite)

I bolded the important part.
Arachnacauldron rules (I'm assuming the others are worded the same)
 

Quote

As long as the Scrapskuttle’s Arachnacauldron is not dispelled, the caster and the Scrapskuttle’s Arachnacauldron are treated as being a single model from the caster’s army that uses the caster’s warscroll as well as the Endless Spells rules. The Scrapskuttle’s Arachnacauldron must remain within 1" of the caster. If the caster is slain, then the Scrapskuttle’s Arachnacauldron is immediately dispelled and removed from play along with the caster.

Since we are using the caster's warscroll and the endless spell's rules, and the two are treated as a single model using the caster's warscroll the caster can still move, because they don't gain the Endless Spell keyword.

[EMMachine]

1 hour ago, kozokus said:

The Dais Arcanum
The Arachnocauldron
The sanctum of amyntok

Most non predatory endlessspells are immobile because they don't have a movement Value. The mentioned spells are becoming one with the casters model, so they have a movement Characteristic thanks to the Model casting it (and not being neutral to the enemy).

If they still wouldn't be able to move, why did the Balewind Vortex need the Sentence.

Quote

A Wizard on a Balewind Vortex cannot move.

+ In case of of the Dais Arcanum their is the Sentence

Quote

A model on a Dais Arcanum has a Move characteristic of 12" and can fly.

So this thing is definitly able to move (the sentence would be useless otherwise).

[Aelfric]

Warscrolls trump core rules.

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, kozokus said:

Sure. But warscroll doesnt say you can move.

as @Ganigumo says, if you are using the model's warscroll and the endless Spell rules, then if there is a contradiction the model's warscroll, which has a move characteristic, over-rules the core rules for endless Spells.

[Ghoooouls]

On 3/29/2021 at 10:15 PM, kozokus said:

Sure. But warscroll doesnt say you can move.

It does though, because as soon as the endless spell is set up, you use the casters warscroll, which will likely have a movement value.

[Kasper]

Doesnt seem like a loophole to me. The endless spell specifically calls out that the caster and the endless spell are treated as a single model and it specifically mentions that this "combined model" now uses the warscroll of the caster, hence it has a move characteristic. This has nothing to do with "warscrolls trump core rules". 

Balewind Vortex is the same thing, however this warscroll specifically mentions that the wizard is unable to move. 

[Gargamel196]

FAQ is up. The caster of the sanctum can move.

JdPVbkQ4ucxmFoEl.pdf (warhammer-community.com)

[GrimDork]

Similar Q came up over the weekend.

 

[NinthMusketeer]

Not the first strange loophole players have needed to overlook. Won't be the last.

[GrimDork]

2 hours ago, kozokus said:

I agree with all of this, the intention is palpable BUT the rules are (surprisingly) very clear, it can't move with its movement 12.

I don't own malign sorcery, so don't have access to the rules in full. Can I ask, what is the context of the wording that non-predatory endless spells cannot move?

[Ghoooouls]

On 3/29/2021 at 10:50 PM, Ganigumo said:

Endless spell rules state:

I bolded the important part.
Arachnacauldron rules (I'm assuming the others are worded the same)
 

Since we are using the caster's warscroll and the endless spell's rules, and the two are treated as a single model using the caster's warscroll the caster can still move, because they don't gain the Endless Spell keyword.

Here's your answer.

[Gargamel196]

I found this picture on FB, I hope its the current wording as my argument below relies on it. Apologies if not!

The same paragraph you are referring to also has more wording. If my opponent would insist that paragraph prohibits me from moving with the model that is the caster/sanctum, I shall insist it cannot be attacked. However I think thats is wrong and the people above and in my earlier thread have given good arguments for it being able to move. 

Also note that the paragraph you are referring to initially states, "unless noted otherwise".  Since you have unified the warscrolls, this allows other rules to supersede those of endless Spells not being able to be targeted or moved or being considered "friendly to both factions".
 

[Joseph Mackay]

4 hours ago, Gargamel196 said:

I found this picture on FB, I hope its the current wording as my argument below relies on it. Apologies if not!

The same paragraph you are referring to also has more wording. If my opponent would insist that paragraph prohibits me from moving with the model that is the caster/sanctum, I shall insist it cannot be attacked. However I think thats is wrong and the people above and in my earlier thread have given good arguments for it being able to move. 

Also note that the paragraph you are referring to initially states, "unless noted otherwise".  Since you have unified the warscrolls, this allows other rules to supersede those of endless Spells not being able to be targeted or moved or being considered "friendly to both factions".
 

The Sanctum specifically says it’s treated as an enemy model for the opponent though 

[Aelfric]

On 3/29/2021 at 10:15 PM, kozokus said:

Sure. But warscroll doesnt say you can move.

The warscroll of the unit using the Endless spell has a movement characteristic, therefore the unit can move.

[CarkFish]

I have to say I think your clutching here ... You have a point, but, if anyone tried this in a game with me I'd just quietly pack up and head to the pub.... Life's way too short for this sillyness 😂

[kozokus]

2 hours ago, EMMachine said:

Most non predatory endlessspells are immobile because they don't have a movement Value. The mentioned spells are becoming one with the casters model, so they have a movement Characteristic thanks to the Model casting it (and not being neutral to the enemy).

If they still wouldn't be able to move, why did the Balewind Vortex need the Sentence.

+ In case of of the Dais Arcanum their is the Sentence

So this thing is definitly able to move (the sentence would be useless otherwise).

I agree with all of this, the intention is palpable BUT the rules are (surprisingly) very clear, it can't move with its movement 12.

[kozokus]

2 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Warscrolls trump core rules.

Sure. But warscroll doesnt say you can move.