Thematic rules for double turns! Let me know what you think!

[Dingding123]

I know it's tiring hearing about double turns as everyone's likely heard and seen everything regarding them at this point.  But I do really like these particular ruling ideas - at least thematically! - for double turns.  While they're not perfect, they should be simple enough to keep the game from being overly complicated for newer players.

1.) Rapid Fire

As marksmen furiously empty their quivers and reload their handguns enemy forces will try any and everything to avoid the fates of their comrades, from crouching to aerial maneuvers and hiding behind their less fortunate footsoldiers.

During your consecutive turns, treat all enemies as though they're within basic terrain cover (even if they can't be affected by cover).

2.) Steady Charge

As units continue their furious assault they pace themselves so as to avoid the consequences of breaking their own lines.

During your consecutive turns, the result of your units' charge rolls is the highest number shown between either dice +1. (A charge roll of 4 and 3 results in a 5" charge instead of a 7" one; a roll of 6 and anything (including another 6) results in a 7" charge).

3.) Heroic Resolve

As heroes face down furious magical forces they remain staunch in their ways, creating a near-palpable sense of will.

During your consecutive turns, subtract 1 from Mortal Wound rolls for enemy Heroes if the source is from a spell or Endless Spell (if the result is 0, they take 0 damage).

 

An important note is that the 7" max charge from Steady Charge means that most units can no longer make a 9" chump charge after performing a Deep Strike on double turns under normal circumstances.  Is that okay or is it too punishing for cavalry units?  Let me know what you think!

Edited December 2, 2020 by Dingding123

[annarborhawk]

I like the idea, in general, of softening the impact of the double turn. It should be a harder choice to  take it or not. Thematically, I like these three particular ideas, though I'm not sure whether the impact would significant enough or not.

 

But, yes, in general, it would nice if there was a price to be paid for taking the double turn. And I like the idea that it amounts to a commander pushing his troops to the limits of their endurance. Maybe I'd go as far as dishing-out some mortal wounds to each unit that moves or charges during a double turn. IDK, but I like the way you're thinking here.

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, Dingding123 said:

An important note is that the 7" max charge from Steady Charge means that most units can no longer make a 9" chump charge after performing a Deep Strike on double turns under normal circumstances.  Is that okay or is it too punishing for cavalry units?  Let me know what you think!

Just a quick note on this: if they get a double turn after deepstriking they get to move before that charge, so in most circumstances they will have a 3" (or max 5" for very slow units) charge anyway

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

I do like the thematic flavor of your additions. From a 1000 ft view of the game, I am of the mind that the game can and will be healthier if we think of changes/additions that involve incentives instead of disincentives. For instance, when making the choice of first player for the round, why not take the ideas above and turn them into incentives for maintaining turn order instead of punishing a consecutive turn? Making a choice that benefits you in some way is far more attractive and fun than doing something that is more like "ewh, my opponent gets a bonus, I guess I have to rob them of it". See what I mean? But otherwise, I personally wouldn't mind playing the above ideas its just the other side of the same coin.

[NinthMusketeer]

I like the basic concept you have here, and think it is a good one. For narrative play. Why just for narrative? Well this sort of thematic element is exactly what narrative play is all about! And let's be honest; they should dump the double from matched play anyways since that is supposed to be the stable variety of play. Let us have crazy-style fun with the double in narrative with rules like this, let matched play move towards less swingy gameplay.

 

Moving on, I think Rascal above outlined how to shift the perspective in a positive way; make it bonuses for maintaining turn order and/or bonuses for the player who gets double-turned on.

[Mattrulesok]

I'm sorry but I hate it, maybe in narrative it can work but I don't like punishing teams for taking the double. Now if you can create more incentives for teams to go second I'm all the way in. 

[Dakota Mike]

I like the idea in theory.  Reminds me of Flames of War.  While not exactly for double turns per se, FOW had a great rule where the player who went second got to start all their units "Dug In".  Meaning they were harder to hit and wound.  This took a lot of the sting out of going second, and made who went first in a game less of a big deal.

 

Your proposed thematic solutions are in the same vein.  And really, getting a double turn can be much the same as getting the first turn, as far as it's effect on the game goes.  

[TheCovenLord]

I would prefer rules that incentivize going second. There was a half ass attempt through endless spell usage which was quickly abandoned (most new factions either are unaffected by their own spells or retain exclusive control of some sort making generic predatory spells effectively worthless).

 

Give the faction that goes second an armour boost (+1 to sv), -1 to be hit or -1 to be wounded, bonuses to charge (countercharge kind of rule), some sort of free disengage or something army-wide that would actually make me deeply consider going second even if I win the roll off. I would avoid rules specifically punishing the faction going first as it would just feel bad. Right now I basically never make a choice I effectively always take the turn if I win the roll off,. Some very niche times I choose second for easy scoring on some scenarios but its so rare I can't recall the last time I chose to go second off hand.

Edited December 3, 2020 by TheCovenLord

[RuneBrush]

Quite like the concept.  I'd perhaps look at it that if you choose to take the priority that you grant your opponent some kind of buff rather than your opponent applying a debuff to you (they lost the roll off after all).  I also think your terminology of consecutive turns would be really confusing for some people and it's often prudent to give your opponent a double turn in some circumstances (some battleplans it can be quite beneficial).

Using your bits as a basis:

1. Rapid Fire : If you chose to take the first turn of a round, during your hero & shooting phase your opponent is treated as being in cover (usual rules for cover apply).

2. Unprepared : If you chose to take the first turn of a round, any unit that successfully charges that was also deployed during this turn must attack last for the duration of this turn.  This supersedes any rules that may allow them to attack first.

Your item 3 feels like it will heavily affect some armies and do nothing to others, plus the minimum in AoS is pretty universally 1 so feels like it's going against a core component of the game.

In fairness a simple way of making the second turn beneficial would be to just grant the person taking the second turn a reroll of some kind.  Perhaps even granting them a pair of "faux fate dice" that match the two dice rolled for priority (but limited in what you can use them for).

[mojojojo101]

2 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

In fairness a simple way of making the second turn beneficial would be to just grant the person taking the second turn a reroll of some kind.  Perhaps even granting them a pair of "faux fate dice" that match the two dice rolled for priority (but limited in what you can use them for).

Surely the easiest way to do that is to us the triumphs that already exist?

So whoever goes second in the battle round rolls a D3 and gets the corresponding triumph. That triumph must be used in that battle round and is lost at the start of the next battle round ( to avoid players stacking them up to use later).

[Phasteon]

On 12/3/2020 at 7:56 PM, mojojojo101 said:

Surely the easiest way to do that is to us the triumphs that already exist?

So whoever goes second in the battle round rolls a D3 and gets the corresponding triumph. That triumph must be used in that battle round and is lost at the start of the next battle round ( to avoid players stacking them up to use later).

Thats a really good idea, but realistically the initiative roll off is fine as it is. Mostly non-competitive/casual players who did not delve into the depths of the game yet dislike it, because they dont yet know how to play around it. 

The biggest disadvantage taking the doubleturn creates is giving the opponent the opportunity to get a doubleturn later. 

This means that if you cant decide the game with your doubleturn, you give the opponent the opportunity to do it later in the game. 

And there are enough ways of playing around the doubleturn, the problem is many players just dont like them because they require a lot of knowledge and planning and many players (even ones that call themselves competitive) just want to push models across the board and roll their way to victory. 

Thats often not how to game works though, at least if the other players knows what to do. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Phasteon

[Bayul]

Keep in mind that fixing this weird turn order by adding more rules is another layer of complexity for casuals. We already have to prepare for both outcomes of the initiave roll with different units considering multiples phases in the current and the consecutive battle round.  One simple static buff for the affected player should be enough. More paragraphs or charts are overkill for an already controversial game mechanic.

[Dingding123]

I've had a revelation recently after watching a game involving Lumineth's Sentinels: why not reroll 6's to hit with shooting attacks during double turns?  It's less potentially backbreaking for most factions than the cover penalty (save the Lumineth, haha) plus it acts as a layer of defense mechanically instead of a penalty bestowed upon the player for taking a double turn.

Another noteworthy mechanic during double turns is Bravery: giving armies +2 or even +1 in the battleshock phase can be key for keeping enough models in tact to be able to meaningfully contribute to the rest of a game afterwards!  Especially against armies like Lumineth who can make the battleshock phase absolutely backbreaking!  You can see I have some sort of bias here hahaha

The "Heroic Resolve" now seems less impactful than the rest as only applying to spells certainly doesn't mean as much nowadays.  Something they could use collectively is just a negation of the first mortal wound taken of any kind for each hero during double turns, but even then that may be a bit too confusing.  Possibly subtracting one from each die roll for mortals period could be an easy to remember rule that stays flavorful while still keeping a bit of an impact on games.  Also "Steady Charge" might be tampering with too much for it to do any good for most play groups, and especially if units have bonus Bravery it'll be less backbreaking during double turns anyway.  Honestly everything should have +1 Bravery in Pitched Battles in my eyes, but that might just be me haha.