Male and female representation in GW models

[Eevika]

I find it funny when some people say women in fantasy dont have to be sexy but most males are 6'5 with 8packs and faces chiseled out of marble. 

[dekay]

51 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Now you have brutal chaos hordes who we are meant to think are completely barbaric and depraved, except they would never do anything bad to women, be racist or sexist. In fact they are completely happy with a woman in charge. It doesn't even come up as an issue. 

Sorry for latching to a single talking point, but I must ask: but why would they be racist or sexist? It's not like all bad people are contractually obligated to be racist and sexist. Chaos hordes have a pretty clean cut philosophy: If you can beat people to death and you share their religion (with said religion's goal being ending the world) they are cool with you. That's it. They won't complain that the Warqueen is a woman. Warqueen is, most of all, a method of delivering prayers to the sky and axe to the face.

Details about her physicality don't concern anyone much, especially that chaos makes physicality a bit more fluid. Even if warrior of chaos *did* have a reason to hate a black guy, he'll never be certain if that guy was black yesterday or won't turn green tomorrow. Chaos, man. It messes you up. ; )

 

EDIT:

7 minutes ago, Eevika said:

I find it funny when some people say women in fantasy dont have to be sexy but most males are 6'5 with 8packs and faces chiseled out of marble. 

 

Those sexy, sexy, freeguild guard ; )

There's a rich choice of deeply unsexy men.

Edited November 21, 2019 by dekay

[Still-young]

6 minutes ago, Eevika said:

I find it funny when some people say women in fantasy dont have to be sexy but most males are 6'5 with 8packs and faces chiseled out of marble. 

I don’t think men in fantasy have to be sexy either. I’d rather both had a mix.

[Lightbox]

23 minutes ago, JPjr said:

*SNIP*

 

I have run out of reacts today but honestly I really liked the points you made on this.

I think there's a lot to be said for there being better (and far more interesting) ways to do dark and gritty than just throwing in sexual assault or other things that are commonly experienced enough to act as a barrier for enjoyment. (But that's a subject that would really take its own topic for discussions)

I think the fact that there's a 'horror' series of novels shows that AoS hasn't lost any of its darker themes.

I know there's also been mention of the hobby should be a male bonding space or safe space and honestly? No. That shouldn't be a reason to stop anyone from enjoying the hobby. You don't see stickers on Barbie toys saying "No boys allowed to play with these because they're for female bonding" (replace Barbie with any other traditionally feminine hobby). If you want to only play with your male friends then that is totally fine, you definitely go out and do that and enjoy yourselves but don't try and make the point that everyone should have to. The great thing about a lot of these models is you don't need to buy or use them but for those that want to it's wonderful to have the option and in this day and age I honestly think this shouldn't really be something we have to argue about, especially considering AoS is not a historical wargame. 

Once again, one persons opinion so take it or leave it etc.

 

Edit:

6 minutes ago, dekay said:

Sorry for latching to a single talking point, but I must ask: but why would they be racist or sexist? It's not like all bad people are contractually obligated to be racist and sexist. Chaos hordes have a pretty clean cut philosophy: If you can beat people to death and you share their religion (with said religion's goal being ending the world) they are cool with you. That's it. They won't complain that the Warqueen is a woman. Warqueen is, most of all, a method of delivering prayers to the sky and axe to the face.

Honestly this is a pretty great point. And there's so much precedent for chaos being, following the strongest and toughest which seems to be a case regardless of gender or race, if you can kill anyone who tries to claim you're not fit to lead then you generally do quite well in chaos.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Lightbox

[Eevika]

5 minutes ago, dekay said:

Sorry for latching to a single talking point, but I must ask: but why would they be racist or sexist? It's not like all bad people are contractually obligated to be racist and sexist. Chaos hordes have a pretty clean cut philosophy: If you can beat people to death and you share their religion (with said religion's goal being ending the world) they are cool with you. That's it. They won't complain that the Warqueen is a woman. Warqueen is, most of all, a method of delivering prayers to the sky and axe to the face.

Details about her physicality don't concern anyone much, especially that chaos makes physicality a bit more fluid. Even if warrior of chaos *did* have a reason to hate a black guy, he'll never be certain if that guy was black yesterday or won't turn green tomorrow. Chaos, man. It messes you up. ; )

 

EDIT:

 

Those sexy, sexy, freeguild guard ; )

There's a rich choice of deeply unsexy men.

Freeguild models are old thats why they are ugly. New models like Chaos Barbarians, Stromcast, Khorne mortals. All sexy men

[Lightbox]

4 minutes ago, Eevika said:

Freeguild models are old thats why they are ugly. New models like Chaos Barbarians, Stromcast, Khorne mortals. All sexy men

I honestly wouldn't agree that the barbarians or khorne mortals are sexy, but that might just be differences in preference.

Stormcast though definitely look like they're modelled to be attractive and well defined etc, which could be deliberate on sigmars part to make them look heroic and inspirational? But would be nice to see some new humans in general who aren't super jacked up bodybuilders.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Lightbox

[dekay]

3 minutes ago, Eevika said:

Freeguild models are old thats why they are ugly. New models like Chaos Barbarians, Stromcast, Khorne mortals. All sexy men

Yeah, here you are right. But I'd blame it mostly on the fact that, for now, 100% of human and semi-human models made specifically for AoS have been either superhuman stormcasts or shirtless barbarians. Things like genestealer cultists and Cawdor gangers in GW's other new lines gives me faith that when we'll get more 'normal' humans for AoS, they won't all be pretty.

[flemingmma]

3 hours ago, Eevika said:

But most skeletons are wearing male armor which would indicate they were male when alive

male armour and female armour are actually the same, boobplate is a way to get injured

[Eevika]

2 minutes ago, flemingmma said:

male armour and female armour are actually the same, boobplate is a way to get injured

But what if you have like F cup titties how does that fit in male armor. 

[JPjr]

I mean chaos is, if you want to really get into it, an interesting case.

let's say that racism, sexism, bigotry of all kinds is as horrifically prevalent as it is in our world, actually no because we all love that Warhammer is super grim dark and grown up it's actually much much much worse.

who is more likely to turn to chaos?

the guy who the world revolves around or...

the woman who lives with an abusive husband and after years of violence at the hands of a big strong man, opens herself up to the rage that's built up for years and bashes his skull in with a hot iron. I'm sure Khorne would welcome that and throw her a few boons so she can go toe to toe with other men?

the black guy who has to work twice as hard to get just half the respect that his peers do and so turns to Slaanesh?

the poor person, living hand to mouth on the street, desperate for hope and change and turns to Tzeentch to further their goals?

the disabled person who lives with pain and frustration every day and finally seeks salvation and respite in Papa N's arms?

 

Chaos is much more interesting a concept when it isn't twiddling its moustache and flexing its big beefy muscles.

[flemingmma]

This shouldn't be an issue

Chuck some women in, there no reason lore wise why there can't be any, in fact quite a few women floating around in the lore

Maybe get rid of or tone down the boobplate because its impractical but if you need it to differentiate the models well there you go.

The "sjws" aren't coming to take away the fun. This ridiculous persecution complex in geek culture reeks of people who need to actually experience the real world rather than getting their world view from forums.

 

[shinros]

6 minutes ago, JPjr said:

I mean chaos is, if you want to really get into it, an interesting case.

let's say that racism, sexism, bigotry of all kinds is as horrifically prevalent as it is in our world, actually no because we all love that Warhammer is super grim dark and grown up it's actually much much much worse.

who is more likely to turn to chaos?

the guy who the world revolves around or...

the woman who lives with an abusive husband and after years of violence at the hands of a big strong man, opens herself up to the rage that's built up for years and bashes his skull in with a hot iron. I'm sure Khorne would welcome that and throw her a few boons so she can go toe to toe with other men?

the black guy who has to work twice as hard to get just half the respect that his peers do and so turns to Slaanesh?

the poor person, living hand to mouth on the street, desperate for hope and change and turns to Tzeentch to further their goals?

the disabled person who lives with pain and frustration every day and finally seeks salvation and respite in Papa N's arms?

 

Chaos is much more interesting a concept when it isn't twiddling its moustache and flexing its big beefy muscles.

I agree with you here we are missing that aspect of chaos in our stories. While Sigmar is the opposite, he picks people who don't give into their dark impulses and fights for their fellow man.

I would give you a like but I ran out.

Edited November 21, 2019 by shinros

[flemingmma]

5 minutes ago, Eevika said:

But what if you have like F cup titties how does that fit in male armor. 

mould out the breast plate but not into boob plate, boob plate compromises the function, similarly to muscle plate.

 

[Lightbox]

5 minutes ago, JPjr said:

I mean chaos is, if you want to really get into it, an interesting case.

let's say that racism, sexism, bigotry of all kinds is as horrifically prevalent as it is in our world, actually no because we all love that Warhammer is super grim dark and grown up it's actually much much much worse.

who is more likely to turn to chaos?

the guy who the world revolves around or...

the woman who lives with an abusive husband and after years of violence at the hands of a big strong man, opens herself up to the rage that's built up for years and bashes his skull in with a hot iron. I'm sure Khorne would welcome that and throw her a few boons so she can go toe to toe with other men?

the black guy who has to work twice as hard to get just half the respect that his peers do and so turns to Slaanesh?

the poor person, living hand to mouth on the street, desperate for hope and change and turns to Tzeentch to further their goals?

the disabled person who lives with pain and frustration every day and finally seeks salvation and respite in Papa N's arms?

 

Chaos is much more interesting a concept when it isn't twiddling its moustache and flexing its big beefy muscles.

I absolutely love this view on chaos, I've always quite like the more tragic aspects of chaos and how damnation can stem from just trying to save people or from unintentionally veering toward it, which also is something that can make for super dark stories (fun fun)

I think there's definitely a lot of scope for the underdog rising up to crush those who oppressed them with chaos. 

[shinros]

4 minutes ago, flemingmma said:

mould out the breast plate but not into boob plate, boob plate compromises the function, similarly to muscle plate.

 

Woah, what are you thinking? Sigmar loves his chisled abs, pecks and boob plate on his armour, its part of the stormcasts charm.

Also there is already racism in the setting via the reclaimed, those tribes or groups of people who survived chaos are looked down upon by those from ayzr. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by shinros

[flemingmma]

2 minutes ago, shinros said:

Woah, what are you thinking? Sigmar loves his chisled abs, pecks and boob plate on his armour, its part of the stormcasts charm.

There is that, Sigmar is obviously a pig who insists on sexualizing his underlings

[passtheKhorneplease]

As the father of two daughters and one transgender son I welcome these new kind of models that GW is coming out with.  I have a couple of scantily clad models from other games and my eldest daughter, who constantly deals with self confidence and body issues, always points out how awful those are and I am always cringing as I paint them because they are so unrealistic and overtly sexually objective.  This of course is a problem across geekdom

It matters a great deal that my kids can see reflections of themselves in the toys and games that they play but also those that their dads and brothers and male friends play.  So I am so happy with the new sisters, with the women in the warbands and the stormhosts, and I think there needs to be more of them.  One further note that while the men are six packed chiseled they are not posed in overtly sexual ways, but they do appear to only have two emotions: stern resolve and rage.  I would love to see some male models (all models really) with a more range of emotion.  I would love for Imperial guardsmen to look confused or terrified.

[Aeryenn]

There is no problem with women in fantasy/s&f settings. Problem is with forced parity for women and minorities.
The biggest issue is when original characters are being replaced with social justice ones. That's wrong, that's evil. Disney and Marvel lead the way in this shameful practice. It is absolutely unaccaptable to replace certain white male characters with minorities just for the sake of social justice (and yes I've read quite a few of Marvel's comics).
I would not accept if from now on Teclis will be portrayed as an Asian woman with disabilities or if they made Gotrek black just so that more people can feel welcome to the hobby. This is wrong. Before I will be attacked by left wings - I have absolutely nothing against more women or people of color introduced to the hobby as long as this not made at the cost of original concepts. To be honest I want an army that would mostly consist of Asians or Africans.
As for the female models my main army is Sylvaneth so it's hard to accuse me of sexism. Just don't get silly with those models. Women carrying plate armors for swords twice as long as their bodies isn't cool. Telling that in the world of flying turtles everything is possible is not an explanation. People enjoy fantasy as long as it not silly.

Also whenever a topic of representation comes to discuss I wonder what would be a reaction of certain communities if for example 100% of Ogors were black. I wonder if then black people wouldn't call that racist that they have representation among disgusting and evil faction. Same goes for other "unpleasent" factions and minorities.

What about people with disabilities? Do we want an army of people on wheelchairs? I AM MYSELF A PERSON WITH DISABILITY and I don't want and expect AoS to give any representation of this. It would be unnatural.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Aryann

[dekay]

@passtheKhorneplease raises some valid point here.

Also, it's worth noting that barbarians with chiselled abs, while obviously objectified,  are largely different to sexy women: To extremely simplify it, lady in chainmail bikini is a male sexual fantasy, while a barbarian with oiled muscles is a male power fantasy. (Yes I know there's, like, a huge list of exceptions to this. Your particular preferences, sexual orientation, aestethic sense and whatever come into play here. But we're trying to keep it simple.)

So while yes, both are objectifying, both are also catering mostly to male audience.  'I don't get why women complain about sexy female characters, I'm a man, male characters are more attractive than me too and you don't see me complaining!' line of thinking is flawed because the real problem is that, well, you're not complaining because *both* of those characters were designed for *you* to enjoy.

Characters attractive to women tend to not be Conans. To dig myself even deeper into the sterotype hole, if male characters were designed to be attractive to women in the way, say, witch aelves are designed to be attractive to men, they wouldn't look like Manowar album covers. Characters with extreme female fan following seem to land closer to marvel's Loki territory. Statistically speaking.

[dekay]

6 minutes ago, Aryann said:

I would not accept if from now on Teclis will be portrayed as an Asian woman with disabilities or if they made Gotrek black just so that more people can feel welcome to the hobby

I mean, Teclis was always physically frail and in the meantime became a god so can look however he likes, while Gotrek just got reincarnated into a new universe, so if there ever was a chance to modify their physical characteristics, it is now.

Edited November 21, 2019 by dekay

[passtheKhorneplease]

The reason that marvel has been switching up their characters is that most of them were birthed in the early 1960's a time of rampant sexism and racism.  The world has changed (although we still have a ways to go) and it is simply not acceptable for every important character in a fictional universe to be a white male.  If that ruins a franchise for you that has more to do with your outlook than the choices of that franchise.  And star wars has been ruined by ****** storytelling and rehashing the same story again and again, not because there was an Asian Engineer who was good at things other than killing people,

[Aeryenn]

9 minutes ago, passtheKhorneplease said:

The reason that marvel has been switching up their characters is that most of them were birthed in the early 1960's a time of rampant sexism and racism.  The world has changed (although we still have a ways to go) and it is simply not acceptable for every important character in a fictional universe to be a white male.  If that ruins a franchise for you that has more to do with your outlook than the choices of that franchise.  And star wars has been ruined by ****** storytelling and rehashing the same story again and again, not because there was an Asian Engineer who was good at things other than killing people,

It's not wrong to introduce new superheroes of any background. It is wrong to REPLACE them. I like and accept Black Panther. I won't accept Miles Morales or Thomas Wilson as Captain America. Can you imagine reaction of Black People in the United States if Black Panther was played by a white guy? Street riots at the very least.

[EccentricCircle]

35 minutes ago, flemingmma said:

mould out the breast plate but not into boob plate, boob plate compromises the function, similarly to muscle plate.

 

In fact armour is worn over several layers of cloth, including a padded jacket, there can be a layer of chainmail, and then there is an air space between the body and the armour. Someone with a large chest just needs a slightly larger size of armour, and enough padding to make it fit. The outer shape of the armour should not change, as the domed shape which slopes off to the side evolved over many centuries to be the best shape to deflect incoming blows. Interestingly modern male beauty  standards weren't a thing back  in medieval times, so armour was usually shaped to show off a narrow waist, and didn't put a lot of focus on the chest and shoulders. A wasp waist and a big codpiece was what was seen as attractive in men.

In earlier eras you get Muscular Cuirasses, where the chest is sculpted on the armour. This was usually worn by generals and nobles who wanted to look good but were less likely to get hit by an actual spear. A female general or Empress would, I'm sure, want a muscular cuirass which reflected female beauty standards rather than male ones. Boobplate armour is thus plausible in that context, but there is no reason to think that an ancient culture's beauty standards would be the same as ours,much less those of a fantasy world.

 

On another note I'm glad I'm not the only one to think that Primaris would have been the perfect opportunity to bring in female space marines. Its such a missed opportunity, as they could have told the anti-female-marine crowd: "You are quite right, there have never been female marines, but now there are going to be!" and had a good lore reason to back that up.

[Aeryenn]

Just now, xking said:

Miles Morales does not replace Peter Parker, he is his own character with unique abilities.

Yet he is still refered as Spider-man and was made to remind us of original Spider-man in 90%. It's unoriginal at the very least. Marvel ran out of bug species or what? 

[passtheKhorneplease]

Yes that is because if Black Panther is replaced than number of comic books starting a solo black superhero would be down to like 2 (Luke Cage and ah ummm,)

If you replace Steve Rogers you still have ..........almost every other marvel superhero

And Peter Parker was not replaced by Miles Morales, they both still exist in the marvel universe and have very different powers.  If you think Miles' Spidey somehow takes away from Peter Parker well I don't see why there can be 2 totally different and unique Spidermans