Warhammer - The Old World

[The Lost Sigmarite]

29 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

I could see them making a seperate line like this specifically for TOW instead of Seraphon that’d be used for Seraphon too as Coalesced feral upgrades .

I don't see GW making a second line of LZM for TOW specifically. It would cost massive amounts of money for what looks like a small community of potential buyers. Molds cost a ton of cash, the new Seraphon release likely cost a lot and GW needs it to be profitable. I don't see them doing that all over again for a smaller sample of customers than the AoS community.. And GW wants profit above all else. Best I can see is a Lizardmen/Coalesced upgrade sprue and nothing more. 

In general, I don't see Old World having more releases than AoS for the same purely economic reasons : AoS has the bigger playerbase (something bad WFB grognards and to an extend TWW fans will never stop malding about, when they want to admit it) and so the biggest customer base compared to TOW, so it's more profitable to invest in AoS than TOW. Ofc they're still gonna release stuff for TOW, but I wouldn't worry about it stealing AoS's time in the sun. 

 

29 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

It’s a rather toxic friendship built on a hate bandwagon and much like Cathay and Nu-Kislev already caused a divide(because TWW don’t care about the setting’s norms when cool new stuff is on display) it’s bound for a rocky end when their interests do start to crash together and they end up not as invested as they thought they’d be.

That 4chan quote sums up everything in a few sentences.

On the "divide", I'm with TWW on this one, Warhammer has always been about the cool toys on display that you can play with. In the end, the setting's norms are just so you can have a (very detailed) background of the sandbox you're pushing your toy soldiers in, and I totally embrace that and I love it. 
But as an AoS player, it's this community attitude that's my primary reason that I won't play Old World. I don't wanna hang out with those guys.

Edited March 25, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Baron Klatz]

44 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

I don't see GW making a second line of LZM for TOW specifically. It would cost massive amounts of money for what looks like a small community of potential buyers. Molds cost a ton of cash, the new Seraphon release likely cost a lot and GW needs it to be profitable. I don't see them doing that all over again for a smaller sample of customers than the AoS community.. And GW wants profit above all else. Best I can see is a Lizardmen/Coalesced upgrade sprue and nothing more. 

Well how I see it is that it’ll be a long time anyway before it will happen.

First “Old World” which won’t touch the New World(and indeed at this point most of Lustria and Ulthuan are just myths to the Empire who even question if elves are real) so they’ll only have compendiums ready for old Lizard armies.

They can’t use the new ones and stay to their “you can use your old armies” promise since they’re all much bigger to where the “new Cold Ones” are monstrous cavalry size. That’s like trying to pretend a demigryph is a regular horse.

So I think they’ll stay with the old lizard armies with “Made to Orders” to spice up the nostalgia factor and a TOW lizard army will only happen in the future if the game proves profitable and can expand to the New World. 
 

50 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

On the "divide", I'm with TWW on this one, Warhammer has always been about the cool toys on display that you can play with.

Indeed and agreed.  

Another factor is trying to convince TWW players to get into it when so many iconic characters won’t be in it.

Empire has the biggest player base and figures like Franz and Gelt won’t even be born yet so that’s already a huge chunk of players not likely to pick it up.

[Snorri Nelriksson]

21 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Well how I see it is that it’ll be a long time anyway before it will happen.

First “Old World” which won’t touch the New World(and indeed at this point most of Lustria and Ulthuan are just myths to the Empire who even question if elves are real) so they’ll only have compendiums ready for old Lizard armies.

They can’t use the new ones and stay to their “you can use your old armies” promise since they’re all much bigger to where the “new Cold Ones” are monstrous cavalry size. That’s like trying to pretend a demigryph is a regular horse.

So I think they’ll stay with the old lizard armies with “Made to Orders” to spice up the nostalgia factor and a TOW lizard army will only happen in the future if the game proves profitable and can expand to the New World. 
 

Indeed and agreed.  

Another factor is trying to convince TWW players to get into it when so many iconic characters won’t be in it.

Empire has the biggest player base and figures like Franz and Gelt won’t even be born yet so that’s already a huge chunk of players not likely to pick it up.

The empire is gonna have Magnus that is one of the most beloved character in the background though...dwarves and elves will mostly have similar if not the same characters.

I don't think that Tww player who likes the setting hate this too much,it would be stoopid imho.

Also i don't get why GW should make 2 lines for the same army...they'll just add the new aos units to lizardmen and perhaps remake the old cold ones (upscaled probably?) and temple guard(or just leave the aggradons out remaking cold ones for Tow only?).

They said old armies will get back so i think it's a given(high elves are already mentioned in the map and i doubt they'll leave the dark elves out).

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Snorri Nelriksson

[Baron Klatz]

16 minutes ago, Snorri Nelriksson said:

 

I don't think that Tww player who likes the setting hate this too much,it would be stoopid imho.

Not saying they’ll hate it but it won’t be an easy sell if the popular characters aren’t there.

Like the Magnus and Teclis examples won’t happen until the timeline advances enough for the Great War so they won’t even be there initially and they’re gonna gamble on the three much lesser known leaders of the civil war to hold fans attention.

Do these look like faces that’ll get TWW players to drop over $500 on a hobby they’ll have to push themselves into?

21 minutes ago, Snorri Nelriksson said:

Also i don't get why GW should make 2 lines for the same army...

Because they want to keep selling new models.

Two different sets will sell more than one set people can just magnetize the base on.

We’ll see how it pans out but with how much has to be redone and increased in size just to get Seraphon to work already sounds like more problems than a specialist game is worth.

 

 

[Snorri Nelriksson]

1 hour ago, Baron Klatz said:

Two different sets will sell more than one set people can just magnetize the base on.

We’ll see how it pans out but with how much has to be redone and increased in size just to get Seraphon to work already sounds like more problems than a specialist game is worth.

Two differenet lines of the same things occupy too much space in the logistics and could confuse newcomers.

It does not makes sense business wise to have the same model done twice if they're functionally the same.

They'll just change base size to help the dual game cross system.

Saurus were already described in the lore as bigger than a human so i could see them with a new base size,gw already did that with many armies (even SM).

They’ll just don't bring some things in tow, but legacy armies will just get square bases.

See Gloomspites: new trolls are the same, so why they should make a "stone troll Tow version"?It would insane businesswise.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Snorri Nelriksson

[Baron Klatz]

14 minutes ago, Snorri Nelriksson said:

It does not makes sense business wise to have the same model done twice if they're functionally the same.

They may not be. If they want to remain true to the old scale then it can justify AoS bigger Seraphon vs TOW smaller rankable ones.

16 minutes ago, Snorri Nelriksson said:

They'll just change base size to help the dual game cross system

This is what remains to be seen. If they do actually confirm base size changes then fine but otherwise stuff like the Seraphon would be a no-go and things like Hastings being suspicious that the new Bret & TK stuff are just upgrade sprues for old models will prove the fly in the ointment of all this. 
 

Time will tell.

[Snorri Nelriksson]

@Baron Klatzthe problem is that seraphon are not the only ones getting this treatment lately..chaos,gloomspites and some other legacy armies got new models and they already seems perfectly "square size fitting".It's not a coincidence Aos imho is revamping old armies,they need to help the TOW return with some new models to avoid having some armies left without new models to sell.

Also hoping that the Bretonnia idea/rumor is plainly wrong...just creating upgrade old kits for Bretonnia it woul be incredibly bad saleswise...people are hungry for real new models,things from the past would be a bad choice.I can only see this for Tomb Kings 8th edition new models that were fairly recent.

[Baron Klatz]

34 minutes ago, Snorri Nelriksson said:

It's not a coincidence Aos imho is revamping old armies,

Except it is.

Those model lines would’ve been brainstormed years before TOW was an idea. That’s why the chaos knights & skeletons are so crazy dynamic and big they don’t rank up.

Like we saw Chosen concepts back in early 2019.

 

Meanwhile TOW started with just a logo ready in late 2019 because they needed to steal Kings of War’s 3rd edition Thunder.

Even Runebrush on this very thread showed there was no communication between teams.

“As an addition, I was in the Age of Sigmar seminar earlier and Ben Johnson confirmed that there isn't any form of formal discussion between the Specialist Games and AoS studios (I'm meaning interdepartmental discussion here, not that they've fallen out with each other).  This is deliberate and as Ben pointed out makes The Old World really exciting for players such as him that have played classic fantasy battle.  What that means is it's no use pestering him (or other people within the AoS studio) for information - they have exactly the same amount of knowledge that we have!”

The current stuff is just AoS’ own updates on stuff that needed it and fit in the setting. Not planned for cross-compatibility.

38 minutes ago, Snorri Nelriksson said:

seems perfectly "square size fitting"

If that was true people wouldn’t keep asking for increased base sizes. 🤣

Did people already forget Lumineth looked rank fitting too? Some military formations just look better in lines, not because of squares.

[Snorri Nelriksson]

28 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

If that was true people wouldn’t keep asking for increased base sizes. 🤣

 

Square size is different from what i meant, the new models can be put in a regiment and fits the old idea of mass ranked.

Or at least for some armies(i can't say for soulblight tbh i never saw people trying,but chaos warriors at least i say yes).

I don't get why some people want to die on this hill of "yes GW will double the production effort on the systems that combined still sells less than Space marines/40k" when they have already an easy solution to increase profit doing less (aka put some square bases in a box).

The whole scale things is also misleading imho,8th edition fantasy was already increasing model size before eot.

Let's agree to disagree and see what happens,the answer will probably come this late year.

(I'm still optimistic they will manage Tow return in a good way considering Aos and 40k recent years tbh,so i'm not that worried).

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Snorri Nelriksson

[Baron Klatz]

5 minutes ago, Snorri Nelriksson said:

the new models can be put in a regiment and fits the old idea of mass ranked.

Eh, so can Stormcast Eternals since the get-go to form their main tactic shieldwalls but you know they ain’t touching the old stuff.

 

9 minutes ago, Snorri Nelriksson said:

I don't get why some people want to die on this hill of "yes GW will double the production effort on the systems that combined still sells worse than Space marines/40k" when they have already an easy solution to increase profit doing less (aka put some square bases in a box).

I mean people were just dying on a hill that the new Freeguild was 100% gonna be updated Renaissance Empire to go with TOW because “why spend extra resources on something they can just crossplay?” and they were dead wrong because GW wants to separate the two.

And now it’s certain they’re making seperate Empire human lines just for TOW.

And if they’re likely doing 4 factions of each for the civil war then I can’t possibly see why chaos, vampires and lizards also won’t get seperate lines(plus discontinued repacks) and players paying double out of nostalgia.

but I agree here-

14 minutes ago, Snorri Nelriksson said:

Let's agree to disagree at this point and see what happens,the answer will probably come this late year.

It’s pointless to argue further with this when we barely have half the picture of what GW & FW have planned. So time will tell.

[Hollow]

All this talk about what does and doesn't make sense in regard to model releases depends entirely on how Games Workshop promotes and develops its IPs going forward. It's clear that they are looking to expand and develop 40k, 30k, AoS and ToW into their own distinct "Warhammer Worlds" each with their own dedicated design teams and studios (I understand that ToW is currently a part of the "Boxed Games" studio but if things go well it will surely become its own vehicle, but it might give a little insight into how the Launch and support for ToW might look) 

There are so many different ways they can approach this. The design team could release "Index" like rules for all of the factions that were present in the game up until 8th Edition. Then focus entirely on "New" Old World Factions or "New takes" on existing factions like the Empire (The change in period helps) for new models.

It means people will have rules to use older existing armies, but new minis will be for new factions. So you could play "The Empire" using the index rules using your old models in "New ToW edition" or you could play "The New Empire Faction" using the rules for them in their new army book. 

It would mean that there would be rules for legacy Lizardmen armies (and for people who wanted to put together the army using various minis following the Index rules) but there wouldn't actually be any Lizardmen model releases. Just their rules.

New plastics will be for armies that are "unique" to ToW, I can see a launch of Tomb Kings V Bretonnia start box, with Index Rules for Beastmen, Chaos Dwarfs, Daemons of Chaos, Dark Elves, Dwarfs, The Empire, High Elves, Lizardmen, Ogre Kingdoms, Orcs and Goblins, Skaven, Vampire Counts, Warriors of Chaos and Wood Elves (With Made to Order batches for older models). New launches for things like Kislev, Cathy, The Empire States (Which will be pretty different from The Empire due to the time jump) 

Or they could say ****** it and go for a fully supported 20-faction plastic update. (We can dream)

Edited March 26, 2023 by Hollow

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Some people want extra mini ranges for TOW, some want just one line you can use for AoS and Old World.

But deep down we all know, Old World plastic humans (Brets, Empire, Kislev, Cathay) will just be fancy conversion material for Cities of Sigmar. 

[Hollow]

The same way as The Horus Heresy is just fancy conversion material for marines. There is no reason why some factions can't have cross Game support and others not, it is all Warhammer after all. Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeench and Slaanesh are present in all 4 settings and whilst each can get a few system-specific models, most of the Demon range can be used in all 4 systems. 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Hollow

[The Lost Sigmarite]

To get an idea of which ranges GW will make Old World exclusive, and which ones will be cross system with AoS, we need to ask ourselves "how can GW please both the AoS and TOW communities with the least expense ?". If GW can kill two birds with one stone and update a range for AoS and TOW at the same time, of course they will. With the same amount of cash spend, you appeal to two communities and two "different" (because there's definitely gonna be overlap) customer bases and so earn bigger profit than if you did it for one of them only.

This is an educated guess, but I think the only ranges that GW is going to make "Old World exclusive" are Tomb Kings, Brets, Empire, Dark, High and Wood Elves, Dwarfs, Kislev and Cathay. And that's already a lot. The rest of TOW armies that are cross compatible with AoS I think would be upgraded in AoS : BoC, Chorfs, Skaven, Ogres, Bonesplitters. This is what I would do if I was GW to maximise profits while diminishing costs.

[RyantheFett]

Atomic Mass Games is doing a good test run with Star Wars Legion and Shatterpoint. Two different game using the same or very close models, but can't be used in both games. The reaction has not been great so far lol, but we shall see what it does to both those games.

I'm in the club that GW selling large square bases as well as including rules for older models would be a win-win for GW, the games, and both new and older players......................................... so it is pretty clear that GW will never do it and go the greedy route lol.

[Clan's Cynic]

I think whether or not AoS and TOW will be cross-compatible will just come down to how they plan on doing the actual rank-and-file.

The new AoS Chaos Warriors for instance certainly wouldn't work if the plan is to have each model on it's own square, base-to-base with the rest of the unit like it used to be, whereas if they plan on rounds-slotting-into-a-bigger-square they might work due to the additional space afforded.

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Clan's Cynic

[Chikout]

This isn't from a well known source but over on Dakka, they are saying there will a tombkings Vs Bretts starter in November or December. There will be new plastic kits for knights, men at arms and longbow men. For Tombkings there will be skeletons, horsemen and chariots. Both sides are apparently also getting 'new kits' too whatever that means. The minimum base size is apparently going to 25mm. 

 

I'm sharing this because it all sounds very plausible. Three units plus heroes is very typical for GW starter sets. That's what Dominion had. Winter to dodge AoS 4th makes sense as does the base size increase. Even if this is just a guess it's probably a pretty good one. 

[Jator]

3 hours ago, Chikout said:

This isn't from a well known source but over on Dakka, they are saying there will a tombkings Vs Bretts starter in November or December. There will be new plastic kits for knights, men at arms and longbow men. For Tombkings there will be skeletons, horsemen and chariots. Both sides are apparently also getting 'new kits' too whatever that means. The minimum base size is apparently going to 25mm. 

 

I'm sharing this because it all sounds very plausible. Three units plus heroes is very typical for GW starter sets. That's what Dominion had. Winter to dodge AoS 4th makes sense as does the base size increase. Even if this is just a guess it's probably a pretty good one. 

Bear in mind that after the lattest TOW article anyone trying to pass as a reliable rummour monger it's going to say something like that. That being said, Hastings also talked about a starter with Bretts and TK. and that was way before GW show the kits for those armies. 
Great news for fans of those factions, but none of those where big sellers, and GW seems to measure the interest on games for how well starters sets sell. It's a bit worrying.

The increased base size would be great and confirm the cross compatibility, let's hope GW is sensible enough to do that.

[Baron Klatz]

4 hours ago, Jator said:

Bear in mind that after the lattest TOW article anyone trying to pass as a reliable rummour monger it's going to say something like that. That being said, Hastings also talked about a starter with Bretts and TK. and that was way before GW show the kits for those armies. 
Great news for fans of those factions, but none of those where big sellers, and GW seems to measure the interest on games for how well starters sets sell. It's a bit worrying.

The increased base size would be great and confirm the cross compatibility, let's hope GW is sensible enough to do that.

But that’s also when he was very adamant on mostly resin releases and repacks of old models.

“for those of you interested in The Old World project, a I can tell you that Bret and Tomb King plastic kits are going back into production, ready to be available when the project launches.”

“Only these two ranges as far as I understand, because many people mourned their loss from the new setting, and GW can make a quick $ off the nostalgia hype and have ZERO dev costs to put into getting them into production again.

As far as I understand a LARGE part of the Old World stuff will be resin.”

“No sorry, I mean the WHOLE of the Old World stuff,including the new stuff, very large amount of resin kits.”

So I really doubt they’re making that the starter set if it’s to dive into old expensive models and resin.

Dakka’s known for sharing some really false rumors up to fake pics like the recent Tyranid gunner that was just a photoshopped Bonereaper so I wouldn’t put any stock in it.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Baron Klatz

[CommissarRotke]

On 3/25/2023 at 3:55 PM, Baron Klatz said:

It’s a rather toxic friendship built on a hate bandwagon and much like Cathay and Nu-Kislev already caused a divide

the differences in Kislev mods vs Cathay mods will never not be funny to me... Cathay has a bunch of really interesting or cool designs drawn from Chinese mythology, history, and badassery. Meanwhile Kislev mods are like "we removed ALL the magic ice and made these bears into HORSES"

one side here is clearly having more fun with the fantasy setting.

[Blueraven84]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:48 AM, Chikout said:

This isn't from a well known source but over on Dakka, they are saying there will a tombkings Vs Bretts starter in November or December. There will be new plastic kits for knights, men at arms and longbow men. For Tombkings there will be skeletons, horsemen and chariots. Both sides are apparently also getting 'new kits' too whatever that means. The minimum base size is apparently going to 25mm. 

Don't know if it's rumour reverb but this is like 3rd time I'm hearing brets vs khemri in starter and end of this year. I guess no smoke without fire....

[Hollow]

I think there might be a bit of rumour reverb occurring here. 😅

Regarding the potential launch of ToW this winter, I see no reason why not. We have all seen the development and production output from GW increase significantly over the years. With 40k, 30k, AoS and ToW, I can totally see them pursuing a two "Tent-pole"  per year release schedule. (A big release for Summer and Winter) by cycling through their four "Warhammer Universes".

The next 5 years could look something like this. 

Summer 2023 -Warhammer 40k 10th - Winter 2023 - Warhammer The Old World

Summer 2024 - Warhammer Age of Sigmar 4th - Winter 2024 - Epic Heresy

Summer 2025 - Warhammer 40k Kill Team - Winter 2025 - Warcry

Summer 2026 - Warhammer 40k 11th - Winter 2026 - Necromunda

Summer 2027 - Warhammer Age of Sigmar 5th - Winter 2027 - Warhammer The Old World

Edited March 29, 2023 by Hollow

[Bosskelot]

The friction between low fantasy vs high fantasy was already an existing thing within WHFB long before it ended. You had a giant explosion of player numbers during 6th during a time when the game was very about mass battles rank and flank and reasonably on the low fantasy side of things rather than super crazy fantastical stuff. One of the contributing factors to the games decline was, in the rare times it was actually updated, GW kept on doing these giant crazy monster centrepiece models and weird stuff like flying bird chariots. Not only did a large portion of the playerbase not really find these appealing, but they were bunk in-game too. Elf players wanted spearman and cavalry and cool new elite units, not flying chariots. It's why the reception to Cathay has been so mixed and why some of the Kislev stuff hasn't really resonated with people.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

18 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

Elf players wanted spearman and cavalry and cool new elite units, not flying chariots.

You can tell GW has learned from its mistakes because now the first thing to get updated in range refreshes are the basic troops, be they infantry or cavalry. And you're right. I started the hobby in late 8th ed WFB, and it felt weird to see High Elves, they had those modern new sculpts like the phenixes, lion chariots and elite units next to the antediluvian sculpts of the spearmen, archers and silver helms, that you where forced to use because you needed 25% base for a valid army.

[Beliman]

55 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

The friction between low fantasy vs high fantasy was already an existing thing within WHFB long before it ended. You had a giant explosion of player numbers during 6th during a time when the game was very about mass battles rank and flank and reasonably on the low fantasy side of things rather than super crazy fantastical stuff. One of the contributing factors to the games decline was, in the rare times it was actually updated, GW kept on doing these giant crazy monster centrepiece models and weird stuff like flying bird chariots. Not only did a large portion of the playerbase not really find these appealing, but they were bunk in-game too. Elf players wanted spearman and cavalry and cool new elite units, not flying chariots. It's why the reception to Cathay has been so mixed and why some of the Kislev stuff hasn't really resonated with people.

Maybe I'm wrong because I wasn't a wargamer when I was young, but I had the feeling that early Warhammer edition had a bit of crazy stuff too: Giant cannons, weird monsters (bulls with wings anyone?), an army of giant frogs, 70-80s punks with bows, etc.. even the sculpting was so cartoon-y that the game had a complete diferent feel.

Some of the old concept arts and illustrations have weirder stuff, like Zepellins, Golems, a cannon bigger than actual buildings (and loaded by a giant), aerial battles between horros and flying towers, etc... Maybe GW didn't have the tech to create all this stuff in 25/28mm because we can see some of this things in Dreadfleet and warmaster (flying towers, boats with wings, mechanical-krakens, etc...).

Edited March 30, 2023 by Beliman