Warhammer - The Old World

[JackStreicher]

At Friday I plan on having a 2K game with Dark Elves vs Tom Kings. Let’s see if the army feels fun (which is what matters)

And yes, I am using 24 Witches which I don’t know what they‘ll be good for, but whatever

Question: If I get fight in extra rank twice, does it enable to fight in 3 ranks?

(the List is at the bottom of this post)

 

What Doko is trying to point out that DE VS HE would turn into a frustrating game because HE are the better versions of DE at the same point costs. This might be true, we‘ll see (haven’t checked it yet)

 

I am also playing with a 8-10 Blood Knights list atm.

list

 

++ Characters [746 pts] ++
Dark Elf Dreadlord [238 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Shield, Pendant Of Khaeleth, Sword of Battle)

Supreme Sorceress [190 pts]
(Hand weapon, Level 4 Wizard, On foot, Focus Familiar, Battle Magic)

Khainite Assassin [98 pts]
(Additional hand weapon, On foot, Dark Venom)

Death Hag [220 pts]
(Two hand weapons, Cauldron of Blood)

++ Core Units [680 pts] ++
10 Repeater Crossbowmen [80 pts]
(Hand weapons and repeater crossbows, Light armour, Shields)

19 Dark Elf Warriors [186 pts]
(Thrusting spears, Light armour, Shield, Lordling (Champion), Standard Bearer, Musician)

24 Witch Elves [334 pts]
(Two hand weapons, Hag (champion), Standard bearer, Banner Of Har Ganeth, Musician)

10 Repeater Crossbowmen [80 pts]
(Hand weapons and repeater crossbows, Light armour, Shields)

++ Special Units [373 pts] ++
22 Black Guard of Naggarond [373 pts]
(Hand weapons and dread halberds, Full plate armour, Drilled, Tower Master (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)

++ Rare Units [200 pts] ++
1 War Hydra [200 pts]
(Wicked claws, serrated maws, fiery breath, hand weapons and whips, 5+)

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

 

 

[The Red King]

God I hope frenzy isn't as bad as people say considering my list is all bullgor/doombull/ghorgon and I'm a khorne player who will absolutely mark my beastmen up as soon as I'm allowed since they're all already painted red and brass.

[Tonhel]

2 hours ago, Public Universal Duardin said:

OK, I'll bite

I'll preface this by saying that I can't comment on any faction's viability as I'm anything but competitive - I only ever play casual or narrative games - but what I can comment on is this forum, participating in various degrees since 2019. While TGA is in general more optimistic than most other Warhammer groups out there, I wouldn't say that nobody accepts negative comments. I know I have grumbled my fair share the last 3-4 years!

I also don't think the Internet is burning at all - from what I've seen the reception to the legacy pdfs have been generally positive even outside these forums. Honestly, Square Based's proposed standard event format got more mixed reactions than the legacy pdfs themselves, lol

I don't want to insinuate that you're in a negative bubble - equally well I could be in an optimistic one, or my non-competitive self doesn't have the 'eye' to discern criticism...but I feel like you're unfair towards this forum. There's real good people here, and it's not all hugboxing and shilling for daddy James Workshop, heheh.

Fantastic post! I totally agree!

[Tonhel]

27 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

At Friday I plan on having a 2K game with Dark Elves vs Tom Kings. Let’s see if the army feels fun (which is what matters)

And yes, I am using 24 Witches which I don’t know what they‘ll be good for, but whatever

Question: If I get fight in extra rank twice, does it enable to fight in 3 ranks?

(the List is at the bottom of this post)

 

What Doko is trying to point out that DE VS HE would turn into a frustrating game because HE are the better versions of DE at the same point costs. This might be true, we‘ll see (haven’t checked it yet)

 

I am also playing with a 8-10 Blood Knights list atm.

list

 

++ Characters [746 pts] ++
Dark Elf Dreadlord [238 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Shield, Pendant Of Khaeleth, Sword of Battle)

Supreme Sorceress [190 pts]
(Hand weapon, Level 4 Wizard, On foot, Focus Familiar, Battle Magic)

Khainite Assassin [98 pts]
(Additional hand weapon, On foot, Dark Venom)

Death Hag [220 pts]
(Two hand weapons, Cauldron of Blood)

++ Core Units [680 pts] ++
10 Repeater Crossbowmen [80 pts]
(Hand weapons and repeater crossbows, Light armour, Shields)

19 Dark Elf Warriors [186 pts]
(Thrusting spears, Light armour, Shield, Lordling (Champion), Standard Bearer, Musician)

24 Witch Elves [334 pts]
(Two hand weapons, Hag (champion), Standard bearer, Banner Of Har Ganeth, Musician)

10 Repeater Crossbowmen [80 pts]
(Hand weapons and repeater crossbows, Light armour, Shields)

++ Special Units [373 pts] ++
22 Black Guard of Naggarond [373 pts]
(Hand weapons and dread halberds, Full plate armour, Drilled, Tower Master (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)

++ Rare Units [200 pts] ++
1 War Hydra [200 pts]
(Wicked claws, serrated maws, fiery breath, hand weapons and whips, 5+)

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

 

 

Looking forward to the battle report! 😄

[Ogregut]

28 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

At Friday I plan on having a 2K game with Dark Elves vs Tom Kings. Let’s see if the army feels fun (which is what matters)

And yes, I am using 24 Witches which I don’t know what they‘ll be good for, but whatever

Question: If I get fight in extra rank twice, does it enable to fight in 3 ranks?

(the List is at the bottom of this post)

 

What Doko is trying to point out that DE VS HE would turn into a frustrating game because HE are the better versions of DE at the same point costs. This might be true, we‘ll see (haven’t checked it yet)

 

I am also playing with a 8-10 Blood Knights list atm.

list

 

++ Characters [746 pts] ++
Dark Elf Dreadlord [238 pts]
(Hand weapon, Full plate armour, Shield, Pendant Of Khaeleth, Sword of Battle)

Supreme Sorceress [190 pts]
(Hand weapon, Level 4 Wizard, On foot, Focus Familiar, Battle Magic)

Khainite Assassin [98 pts]
(Additional hand weapon, On foot, Dark Venom)

Death Hag [220 pts]
(Two hand weapons, Cauldron of Blood)

++ Core Units [680 pts] ++
10 Repeater Crossbowmen [80 pts]
(Hand weapons and repeater crossbows, Light armour, Shields)

19 Dark Elf Warriors [186 pts]
(Thrusting spears, Light armour, Shield, Lordling (Champion), Standard Bearer, Musician)

24 Witch Elves [334 pts]
(Two hand weapons, Hag (champion), Standard bearer, Banner Of Har Ganeth, Musician)

10 Repeater Crossbowmen [80 pts]
(Hand weapons and repeater crossbows, Light armour, Shields)

++ Special Units [373 pts] ++
22 Black Guard of Naggarond [373 pts]
(Hand weapons and dread halberds, Full plate armour, Drilled, Tower Master (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)

++ Rare Units [200 pts] ++
1 War Hydra [200 pts]
(Wicked claws, serrated maws, fiery breath, hand weapons and whips, 5+)

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

 

 

Good army list! 

Only thing I'll be tempted to do is split the Witch elves in 2 units and use them more as annoyance units then a big block. They are a glass hammer so use them as such, throw into the enemy and if they die, they die, khaine will be pleased either way lol. 

 

Also, someone said dark elves can't get a 2+ save, but they can. 

Dreadlord on cold one with full plate and a Sheild = 2+ save. 

[pnkdth]

44 minutes ago, Sception said:

Eh, longer potential charge range is just giving frenzy more rope to hang you with.  I played some dark elves back in the day and my singular witch elf unit constantly had me pulling my hair out, even with dark riders and harpies to help focus their attention.  More than that, I played a lot of wood elves against various frenzied units, and they always felt like free wins.

So long as your army is fairly maneuverable (or at least has access to maneuverable elements) then you can use the opponents own frenzy blinder units to protect your vulnerable targets from the frenzied unit, and as long as your army is fairly shooty (or at least has access to some shooty elements), you can clear those blinders right when you need a frenzied unit to make the worst possible charge.  Lizardmen are not my faction (despite my apparent decision to die on the hill of 'saurus warriors don't suck in TOW'), but just from reading their pdf they seem to have access to both maneuverable units and shooty units enough to really punish frenzy hard.  If I were a lizardmen player, I don't think Khornate chaos warriors (or witch elves for that matter) would be high on my list of troublesome match ups.

But maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe I'm basing too much of that opinion on experience with a different army (mostly wood elves, admittedly probably the best faction for punishing frenzy in most editions of the game) in different editions (mostly 5th through 7th, 8th is when I switched over to all undead all the time).

Eh, also a longer corridor to set up a charge. Depends on how you deal with it and some armies are better than others (both for and against). I also played 6-8th. I'm not arguing there's no liability but getting it right will hurt. I also remember using the Slaanesh spell which gave frenzy to great effect with HoC and, for a limited time, Cult of Slaanesh (DE campaign faction which was tournament legal).

[Public Universal Duardin]

46 minutes ago, The Red King said:

God I hope frenzy isn't as bad as people say considering my list is all bullgor/doombull/ghorgon and I'm a khorne player who will absolutely mark my beastmen up as soon as I'm allowed since they're all already painted red and brass.

Khorned and Gorepilled

[Sception]

47 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

At Friday I plan on having a 2K game with Dark Elves vs Tom Kings. Let’s see if the army feels fun (which is what matters)

And yes, I am using 24 Witches which I don’t know what they‘ll be good for, but whatever

Question: If I get fight in extra rank twice, does it enable to fight in 3 ranks?

(the List is at the bottom of this post)

I don't think multiple instances of extra rank attacks stack, but I could be wrong.

List looks pretty good.  The only thing that feels off is the lack of scouts & dark riders.  Maybe its my previous edition / old wood elf player showing, but I have a hard time passing up on skirmish scout & fast cav harassment units.  Just a lot of utility to those.

Then again I do skip skeleton riders in tomb kings, but that's more of a model quality issue than a competitive choice, and imo dark riders still look fine.

Anyway, I'm not sure what I'd recommend dropping to fit them though, so it might just be a case of not being able to fit everything one could want in a limited game size.

[JackStreicher]

39 minutes ago, Ogregut said:

Only thing I'll be tempted to do is split the Witch elves in 2 units and use them more as annoyance units then a big block. They are a glass hammer so use them as such, throw into the enemy and if they die, they die, khaine will be pleased either way lol. 

True! now I am confused however: The Hag Queen is a loner - so she can’t join the Witches, but she can take a Witchbrew which benefits her joined unit?

looked it up, Fight in extra rank does not stack. Bummer.
I might switch to Vampires for the game. On a closer look there a too many contradictory/ counter-intuitive rules:

Martial Prowess: 2 Entries in the entire Book: City Watch and Black Guard. The rule doesn’t do anything for black guards, yet it makes spears obsolete.

On top of the (unusable) Murderous rule? 

Something went wrong with this book (hastily written, maybe? We need an FAQ it feels like most entries of murderous should be replaced by Martial Prowess)

 

Edited January 24 by JackStreicher

[Ogregut]

11 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

True! now I am confused however: The Hag Queen is a loner - so she can’t join the Witches, but she can take a Witchbrew which benefits her joined unit?

Loner characters  can only join loner units and loner units can only be joined by loner characters. 

Loners unite lol

[Doko]

2 hours ago, The Red King said:

1% is not a fact.

That's a pretty disingenuous way of saying 33% chance of success against a one hit kill versus 50% chance of success. Yeah that's a 16% difference but it isn't 96% versus 80% it's literally the difference between "statistical anomaly" and "coin flip".

 

Yes you're worse against small arms fire that will likely struggle to wound your tough 6 dragon to begin with but you're better (with pendant) against anything strength 6 or higher. Meaning if they have even a 50% of wounding you then you have a 50% chance of ignoring it without even factoring armor. Fine if you park your dragon within short range of a unit with mass poison shooting then yes you're worse off than a star dragon and I'm sorry the game doesn't prevent you from making bad decisions but in the real world where your tough 6 monster is mostly being threatened by cannons, great weapons, monsters and spells you'll be happy you're not a star dragon. 

 

Legitimate question with no malice or snark behind it. what do you THINK is going to happen to your black dragon? Mass poison? Small arms fire rolling statistical anomalies to wound? Bearing in mind that by the time you're in short range or melee you ought to have (ought to have is not a mathematical fact) caused 3 wounds considering the damage output and initiative of a dreadlord on dragon. Give us a real scenario to compare instead of the white box of math hammer.

 

Most importantly (and again no snark). Do you have fun playing this game? I mean the variables of dice and positioning and people making mistakes etc. Etc. Do you enjoy this or would you rather compare spreadsheets and then shake hands and collect your win?

its really tiryng explain basic maths all time.

 

in every scenario is better the save of high elfs(+1 save and 5 regen) than the dark elf(+1 ward only vs s4+)

only vs s4+ attacks with killing monster is better and these units are very very very rare that usually never gona find them(dwarfs have 0 and dark elfs also have 0)

so yes the 99,99% of the times high elf is better. 

 

-ignore armor attacks  with s3- win high elf,s4+ win high elf again(+1 ward is worse than 5+ regen)

-any s3 or s4+ attack with betwen 0 and 4 rend,again win high elf because +1save and 5regen is better than 1 ward

i wont answer the other questions because i dont want be banned,also last post about this topic because is stupid argue that +1 save and 5+ regen is worse than a situational +1 ward

Edited January 24 by Doko

[Doko]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

What Doko is trying to point out that DE VS HE would turn into a frustrating game because HE are the better versions of DE at the same point costs. This might be true, we‘ll see (haven’t checked it yet)

maybe sound weird after say so many times that DE are nerfed versions of HE......but in a match DE vs HE the DE gonna win and are better due to the hate vs HE.

but this rules is useless vs the othes armys.

also loner can join to loner unit,and wytches are loner so can join with hag quen

[Garrac]

16 minutes ago, Doko said:

maybe sound weird after say so many times that DE are nerfed versions of HE......but in a match DE vs HE the DE gonna win and are better due to the hate vs HE.

but this rules is useless vs the othes armys.

also loner can join to loner unit,and wytches are loner so can join with hag quen

... Wait, high elfs no longer hate dark elfs? They couldnt even make an exception here?

[Sception]

5 minutes ago, Garrac said:

... Wait, high elfs no longer hate dark elfs?

They know in their hearts that they're in the wrong.  😛

[Ogregut]

12 minutes ago, Garrac said:

... Wait, high elfs no longer hate dark elfs? They couldnt even make an exception here?

High elves have never hated dark elves other than shadow warriors and Alth Anar. 

 

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

 

Martial Prowess: 2 Entries in the entire Book: City Watch and Black Guard. The rule doesn’t do anything for black guards, yet it makes spears obsolete.

On top of the (unusable) Murderous rule

 

Martial Prowess let's you have supporting attacks to the flank and rear which as far as I can tell you can't do normally so I'm not seeing how you're saying Black Guard can't use it. 

The only 2 units who can use it are spears and black guard as they are the only ones armed with weapons that can fight in extra ranks. 

I agree about murderous, it's defo a oversight however don't forget every model is assumed to be armed with a hand weapon so you could chose to use a normal hand weapon instead of whatever else they have. 

But I do think the limitation of only being able to use it with one weapon will be removed. 

[Garrac]

4 minutes ago, Ogregut said:

High elves have never hated dark elves other than shadow warriors and Alth Anar.

um, you're right, but they did have Valour of Ages 8re-roll of psychology tests against DE) to represent their disgust to their cousins.

But I guess they managed to work it out.

Edited January 24 by Garrac

[Doko]

8 minutes ago, Ogregut said:

I'm not seeing how you're saying Black Guard can't use it. 

the weapon of black guard say that you cant use it

[Ogregut]

35 minutes ago, Doko said:

the weapon of black guard say that you cant use it

They only can't use the rule on the turn they charge. 

Black guard are one of the few units it's not a bad thing if they are charged, I6 and fighting in 2 ranks with S4 - 1ap and armourbane (1) and hatred. Plus they have stubbon if it all goes wrong!

Edited January 25 by Ogregut

[MaxT]

Doko, how many games have you played so far? It must be loads considering you have got such established opinions, tier lists etc.

[Doko]

in tow 0. but you dont need play one game to know how is the performande of units,mathammer and theorycraft are 100% accurate.

the tierlist isnt mine(i havent read even all the books)

[BarakUrbaz]

I just recall when all the Custodes players in 40k were complaining about their new codex being terrible and then it turned out to actually be top-tier. 

[Brutaka809]

Are there any prices floating around for the MTO models this weekend? Still waiting on my preorder stuff to come in and the resin minis to be available in N.A. but some of the foot heroes look cool.

[Ejecutor]

6 minutes ago, Brutaka809 said:

Are there any prices floating around for the MTO models this weekend? Still waiting on my preorder stuff to come in and the resin minis to be available in N.A. but some of the foot heroes look cool.

MTO minis are always excluded from the price sheets, so we would have to wait until they are available in the store to know the prices.

[Brutaka809]

Ahhh bummer I thought that was the case but was holding out. Any speculation? Probably like $30 per knight on horse and $25 per hero?

[Beliman]

5 hours ago, Doko said:

but you dont need play one game to know how is the performande of units,mathammer and theorycraft are 100% accurate.

Remember that a few months ago, you said Grundstock Thunderers were really bad, but the whole meta of AoS put them on top tier units (still there) because they have enough tools and synergies that can be used for so many things, even if their "numbers" are not that good.

I suggest to wait a bit, mathammer is fun and it helps a lot when you build lists, but you need to try the game and see how the others armies had their main strength taken down a bit to see the whole picture.