zilberfrid Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 1 hour ago, NatBrannigan said: I was looking at Ironbreakers myself, but they don't seem great for the points. Do people find they need a tougher melee unit to screen shooting troops? Or would more shooting potentially make a better screen? So forTelevipers list, would you take something to help screen those handgunners? Just take more handgunners or something else? Would Irondrakes make a better screen that Ironbreakers? Handgunners have Stand and Shoot, which means chargers get bullets to the face. A thin line of Sword-Shield dudes (or ironbreakers) can help further dissuade chargers. I think Irondrakes are a bit too expensive (and they'll lose their second shot if they have an enemy close) to use as screen. Another option is Halberdiers if you have a caster with Aura of Glory. That would make them rather killy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekay Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 1 hour ago, NatBrannigan said: I was looking at Ironbreakers myself, but they don't seem great for the points. Do people find they need a tougher melee unit to screen shooting troops? Or would more shooting potentially make a better screen? So forTelevipers list, would you take something to help screen those handgunners? Just take more handgunners or something else? Would Irondrakes make a better screen that Ironbreakers? Firedrakes are a bit too good at actual shooting to be a screen. They should be secrrened themselves to avoid being wasted. If screen is what you want, keep it cheap. Your options here would be a) more handgunners - stand and shoot is fun, gives you extra marksman, and smaller unit can catch charges for the bigger one. b) freeguild guard, shield variant - cheap, tough for their points. (Or if you want to go for a controversial option - black ark corsairs - against shooting they fare equally well to guard, hit back a bit better and you get satisfaction from getting something out of a unit commonly seen as bad :D) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furythrow2 Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 7 minutes ago, dekay said: Or if you want to go for a controversial option - black ark corsairs - against shooting they fare equally well to guard, hit back a bit better and you get satisfaction from getting something out of a unit commonly seen as bad :D) Out of curiosity, what would you arm screening corsairs with, the handbows or 2 swords? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekay Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, Furythrow2 said: Out of curiosity, what would you arm screening corsairs with, the handbows or 2 swords? Remember, we're not expecting them to actually kill anything. Ever ; ) So it's mostly a matter of preference. However, if you have aura of glory availible, I'd take two blades option for +2 attack bonus. Plus, being here mostly as a static screen, they don't get much benefit out of increased threat range that handbows give. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Televiper11 Posted October 29, 2019 Author Share Posted October 29, 2019 I don't screen my Handgunners at 1K. I cast Shield of Thorns on them; between that and Stand & Shoot, most opponent will think twice before charging them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwydion Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Do you mean Armour of Thorns from the Sisters of the Thorn? Because they can only cast that on Wanderer units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkl Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 10 hours ago, Gwydion said: Do you mean Armour of Thorns from the Sisters of the Thorn? Because they can only cast that on Wanderer units. Shield of Thorns is Battlemage spell from Ghyran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekay Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Alright, as my army remodelling project to fit the cities progresses nicely, I've built the first list that's not a hypotethical experiment, but something I'll actually be able to field out of models I have ready, or will have shortly: Spoiler Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar- City: Tempest's EyeMortal Realm: AqshyFreeguild General on Griffon (320)- Shield & RuneswordCelestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)- General- Trait: Hawk-eyed- Artefact: Ignax's Scales- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Strike of Eagles (Tempest's Eye Wizard)Sorceress (90)- Artefact: Patrician's Helm- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Celestial Visions (Tempest's Eye Wizard)- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)Knight-Azyros (100)15 x Freeguild Pistoliers (300)5 x Freeguild Outriders (100)5 x Freeguild Outriders (100)30 x Darkshards (300)10 x Shadow Warriors (110)Grundstok Gunhauler (130)- Main Gun: Drill CannonAetherguard Windrunners (120)Emerald Lifeswarm (50)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 134 And how does that work (in theory) Spoiler Things I don't like about it: 1. A lot of effectiveness rides on the hurricanum. Ignax' scales are here to somewhat increase its survivability, but still, if it dies, i lose both +1 to hit and to wound. However, I see no place to fit in another character to be a general, I have no viable retinues, plus new bonereaper catapult exists and it just deletes small characters outright, so hurricanum stays. I can emergency lifeswarm it if necessary. 2. Pistoliers and darkshards aren't full units. Neither of them provide horde discount, but still, they both work wel in large groups. One of those could be remedied with removing shadow warriors, but i like flexibility they provide. I could also remove the gunhauler, but I might actually have some use for it. So for now, 15/30 needs to stay i think. 3. I don't have the seerstone, but making darkshard blob immune to battleshock might be more valuable. How do I see it working: It's a relatively low drop army (6). If I have a chance of doing some real damage in 1st turn, I want to go first. Darkshards and ourtiders are the shooting core - they keep in aura range, with outriders trying to stay static after the initial move. They try to remove whatever seems most dangerous before it gets a chance to act. Shadow warriors drop in position to support them where their damage may not be enough. Griffon and pistoliers are sort of a reserve - they're unlikely to use their full potential in round 1, so they'll probably wait until enemy approaches a bit. If that doesn't happen, that means someone tries to outshoot buffed darkshards, outriders and hurricanum and I think I'm kind of happy with that outcome... Gunhauler has two functions - first, drill cannon is 3+/2+ triggers on 5+ in aura range and can put some hurt on armoured targets. Second - gunhauler can be a bit of a roadblock before the pistoliers, possibly using detonation drills if someone manages to reach them anyway with some models. And it doesn't deteriorate with wounds, so needs to be killed off completely before losing effectiveness, and it doesn't generate extra drop. When I start taking wounds, lifeswarm goes up and heals what needs it the most. Probably hurricanum. Unused models that I can possibly add: Battlemage, battlemage on griffon, second gunhauler, 10 more darkshards, 10 bleakswords/executioners/greatswords [it's a kitbash anyway, could work as either], 10 more shadow warriors. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippo Lele Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 On 10/26/2019 at 12:42 AM, swarmofseals said: WDR is a statistic that allows you to compare offensive efficiency across different types of rend. Most people just do the math assuming a specific armor save (often 4+) which will bias your results. WDR assigns a multiplier to each rend value and to mortal wounds that is based on the advantage you get from that level of rend against the full range of armor values, weighted for expected frequency. I gave saves of 4+ and 5+ a weight of 3, 3+ and 6+ a weight of 2, and 2+ and - a weight of 1. So a damage type's effectiveness against 4+ and 5+ saves is counted three times as much as it's effectiveness against 2+ and - saves. So in order to calculate it I simply calculate the expected value of the damage dealt, multiply that by the modifier from the rend/mortal type, and divide by the points cost of the unit. Very cool! Where can I find such statistic? Have you already updated it with the latest cost and warscroll changes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swarmofseals Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 3 hours ago, Pippo Lele said: Very cool! Where can I find such statistic? Have you already updated it with the latest cost and warscroll changes? I don't have a complete database of all warscrolls. I do all the calculations manually. If you look through my post history you can probably find a bunch of data that I have posted about various factions, but it's definitely not complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippo Lele Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Oh, no problem then: I enjoy mathammering myself so I'll use your algorithm to get my own results. Thanks for sharing the idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethiris Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) When using Sisters or Handgunners, I'm starting to think that we probably do not need any screens if using the bridge. What I'll do is play 2x30 sisters and weave them together so that all 60 can stand and shoot whenever charged. The cool part about it is that you don't have to shoot both at the same time if they hit you with chaff first (not that a lot of chaff will survive the salvo ) Then just go for a mobile strike unit or two. Example list: Spoiler Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar- City: Tempest's EyeLeadersNomad Prince (120)- General- Trait: Hawk-eyed- Artefact: Patrician's HelmSorceress (90)- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Strike of Eagles (Tempest's Eye Wizard)- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)Battleline30 x Sisters of the Watch (480)30 x Sisters of the Watch (480)10 x Darkshards (100)- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)5 x Sisters of the Thorn (130)- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Aura of Glory (Tempest's Eye Wizard)Units10 x Wild Riders (260)10 x Wild Riders (260)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsSoulscream Bridge (80)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 130 Edited October 31, 2019 by Sethiris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feraxil Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Here's an idea I've been mulling this morning, spamming d3 dmg shots. Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar- City: Tempest's EyeMortal Realm: AqshyLeadersLord-Ordinator (140)- General- Trait: Hawk-eyed- Artefact: Seerstone AmuletCelestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Celestial Visions (Tempest's Eye Wizard)Battleline10 x Darkshards (100)- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)10 x Darkshards (100)10 x Darkshards (100)Units3 x Scourgerunner Chariots (150)3 x Scourgerunner Chariots (150)3 x Scourgerunner Chariots (150)3 x Scourgerunner Chariots (150)3 x Scourgerunner Chariots (150)War MachinesHelstorm Rocket Battery (130)Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 164 Good artillery battery, non useless battleline tax, and scourgerunners shoot as well as gum up the works with their huge bodies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 It looks a bit dangerous to field that, especially against rush builds. How do you stop deepstrikes or simply fast melee units? I'd think about adding slowing spells, like a Metal battlemage or the right Endless spells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feraxil Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Well the chariots can cover a line that crosses the table, so when you add in terrain you're easily gonna be able to gum up any advances. You'll have to bubble wrap and weather the storm against deep strikes. Fliers could be a bigger problem but if they fly over your chariot line your arty, hurricanum, and shards will have to try to take em out. Bait and feed tactics would be needed a lot. I forsee a problem with objective control if you cant clear enemies from objectives fast enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethiris Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 25 minutes ago, feraxil said: Here's an idea I've been mulling this morning, spamming d3 dmg shots. Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar- City: Tempest's EyeMortal Realm: AqshyLeadersLord-Ordinator (140)- General- Trait: Hawk-eyed- Artefact: Seerstone AmuletCelestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Celestial Visions (Tempest's Eye Wizard)Battleline10 x Darkshards (100)- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)10 x Darkshards (100)10 x Darkshards (100)Units3 x Scourgerunner Chariots (150)3 x Scourgerunner Chariots (150)3 x Scourgerunner Chariots (150)3 x Scourgerunner Chariots (150)3 x Scourgerunner Chariots (150)War MachinesHelstorm Rocket Battery (130)Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)Helstorm Rocket Battery (130)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 164 Good artillery battery, non useless battleline tax, and scourgerunners shoot as well as gum up the works with their huge bodies. Interesting idea. It'll be very mobile and have a great threat range. And the shooting should be pretty decent. The problem is that you have to get £412.5 (GW price) in just chariots, so this will be a really expensive army to build. 😅 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feraxil Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, Sethiris said: Interesting idea. It'll be very mobile and have a great threat range. And the shooting should be pretty decent. The problem is that you have to get £412.5 (GW price) in just chariots, so this will be a really expensive army to build. 😅 Yeah I already have 'em so its not a problem. I just need to buy the rocket batteries. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhanist Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 hour ago, feraxil said: Yeah I already have 'em so its not a problem. I just need to buy the rocket batteries. 😲 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feraxil Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, Arkhanist said: 😲 I may have the largest dark elf collection outside of GW hq. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekay Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Just now, feraxil said: I may have the largest dark elf collection outside of GW hq. Go for full theme and use Reapers as helstorms, then. They no longer have ruls, no one will mind ; ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feraxil Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, dekay said: Go for full theme and use Reapers as helstorms, then. They no longer have ruls, no one will mind ; ) They're metal. I won't use a model that isn't plastic. I'm snobby that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunaldi Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 (edited) My list for 1250 had one game vs Nurgle on Putrid Blightkings +Lord of Aff + Harbinger + 2 mages+ some warriors of chaos Battle for the pass(old) he gave me 1st turn with +1save and +3 move i was able to secure 3 of 4 obj He had easy charges thx to that but only his Lord had good rend so i took the risk. I mess up and didn't deployed irondrakes into range of harbinger (i needed 2" more)but was able to harass him with hurricanum(however it end up exposed ). He charges Blighkings into Longbeards and Hammerers (and one guy tags hurricanum) Lord had good charge roll and went into irondrakes Warden King Ca into Blighkings BK really struggle vs armor he had 20 guys but they killed 1 longbeard (2+save + 6++) and 3-4 hammeres 20 Hammerers attacked into BK , made 61 attacks on 2+/3+ rend 1 killed ~10. Lord of Aff had -1 rend command trait and some dmg item he killed 9 irondrakes i won skillroll buffed hammerers to 2+/3+(rerolls 1) rend 2 , 3 attacks each 4 into BK but Nurgle clock said reroll wounds of 6s but still they killed BK, Lord of Aff piled to my runelord and killed him . one of his mages charges hurricanum , lord charged hamms , he killed some and died himself and that's about it ... there was slow grind up on 1 of the obj between 10 longbeards and 5 warrios of chaos , no rends on both sides vs saves of 3+ and 4+. Aetherguard Captain is not needed between +1 from musician and +2 from Battlemage but other command traits don't match well into this list. Edited November 2, 2019 by Grunaldi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 Had my first game with my Pistolier list today.. won't do a full report as I usually do since I was a bit everywhere and haven't played in awhile: Spoiler Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar- City: Tempest's EyeMortal Realm: AqshyLeadersFreeguild General on Griffon (320)- General- Shield & Runesword- Trait: Hawk-eyed- Artefact: Ignax's ScalesCelestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Aura of Glory (Tempest's Eye Wizard)Anointed (100)Knight-Azyros (100)Battleline10 x Freeguild Pistoliers (200)10 x Freeguild Pistoliers (200)5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (100)5 x Freeguild Pistoliers (100)Units30 x Phoenix Guard (420)BattalionsAetherguard Windrunners (120)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsEmerald Lifeswarm (50)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 124 We did Relocation Orb and I played against a very shooting heavy Mawtribes list (2 Ironblasters, 12 or so Leadbelchers) but overall it was a win for CoS. I will definitely say that I made a good amount of mistakes, largely in not keeping within aura range of Hawk-eyed or the Hurricanum which really hurt the shooting output... oh and I for some reason gave myself T1 and I really don't know why; the +1 saves would've mitigated his shooting anyway and I would've been in range to put out a lot more damage. Not to mention that deployment with this many large Cav bases on this particular battleplan proved challenging with the zones being so tight. I think it's too early to make any changes and I would say this was a good matchup.. we both got a double turn and it was over at the start of 4 with him only having a Tyrant, Irongut and a few Leadblechers left while I still had ~15 PG and 8 Pistoliers with the Hurricanum. It definitely helped that the objectives stayed in the middle or on my side of the board, but the game was pretty close throughout I would say. Some day I may explore my Dark Elf version of it again, but I think I'll stick with this setup for now and see how it goes. With OBR out I'm a bit strapped on buying anymore CoS models 😉 Anyway, I'll probably be playing these guys and OBR for a good while and take a small break from my Skaven so I'll be sure to post up here whenever I do a full batrep for those interested in reading. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampHeart Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 (edited) On 10/31/2019 at 6:04 AM, Sethiris said: What I'll do is play 2x30 sisters and weave them together so that all 60 can stand and shoot whenever charged. The cool part about it is that you don't have to shoot both at the same time if they hit you with chaff first (not that a lot of chaff will survive the salvo ) If the chaff survives the first salvo and you didn't shoot with the 2nd unit you won't be able to shoot with it if you're charged by a 2nd unit. Edited November 4, 2019 by SwampHeart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethiris Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 16 hours ago, SwampHeart said: If the chaff survives the first salvo and you didn't shoot with the 2nd unit you won't be able to shoot with it if you're charged by a 2nd unit. Something that survives 30 shots from Sisters of the Watch isn't really chaff, is it? 😜 Then again, is there really a precedent stating that they have to activate their abilities at the exact same time? As long as it's still finishing its charge move, it should be able to shoot at the first unit, right? Sequencing isn't really a detailed part of the rules. 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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