Tempest Eye Discussion

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, soots said:

Do you know the wdr calculator?

I did numbers and my ratings showed corsairs having a higher efficiency than dark shards. But obvious pros and cons. I feel like Freecities cannot do low drops and will likely go first. So you need some type of way to shoot at 24+ inches otherwise you literally lose a turn of the game which just completely destroys effiency. This pretty much voids the stand and shoot units. Especially 16" range which is basically only 1 turn of double shots before enemy is in. I rate dark shards best because they can kite with 16" range whereas corsairs cannot.

There’s a reason people are going so all in on the soulscream bridge

[soots]

3 hours ago, stratigo said:

There’s a reason people are going so all in on the soulscream bridge

So now youre paying 170pts for wizard and bridge and for a chance to get off a game changer endless spell which the opponent will fight.

I really dont like relying on getting off a massive endless spell to do things. 

[swarmofseals]

 

7 hours ago, soots said:

Do you know the wdr calculator?

I did numbers and my ratings showed corsairs having a higher efficiency than dark shards. But obvious pros and cons. I feel like Freecities cannot do low drops and will likely go first. So you need some type of way to shoot at 24+ inches otherwise you literally lose a turn of the game which just completely destroys effiency. This pretty much voids the stand and shoot units. Especially 16" range which is basically only 1 turn of double shots before enemy is in. I rate dark shards best because they can kite with 16" range whereas corsairs cannot.

I created the WDR statistic, so yeah I know how it works. I haven't made a special calculator though, I just do all the calculations manually. You are correct that corsairs have a higher efficiency than darkshards, but they are unrealistic to use as a main gunline unit because of their terrible range. Buffing units like Hawkeye and Celestial Hurricanum have limited space, too, so the lower numbers of basically any other shooting unit ends up being more workable than corsairs. That's not to say corsairs are useless though, far from it. I just don't think it makes sense to think about them as part of a gunline.

6 hours ago, soots said:

Im saying the irondrakes need to be stationary at 16" to get efficiency. Once they move, their efficiency gets halved. Same goes for sisters and crossbowmen - who unfortunately usually cannot hit the enemy turn 1. Darkshards need to go tempest or burn a ca to shoot first turn. Im just pointing out that with our high drops we will likely have to take first turn so its a real issue for us not being able to hit with shooting for an entire turn.

Kite = ability to shoot and move so enemy cannot touch them.

Kiting is really not a thing, at least not in Tempest Eye. I guess Living City can kinda do it. You move before you shoot, so the maximum distance between you and the enemy will always be no more than the range of your weapon. Most armies can close a 16" gap in one turn.

As others have said, bridge is a thing. It's perhaps not as good in Tempest Eye, but I think you should often be able to deploy such that your caster is out of unbind range, and it's quite easy to get it to a 3+ or 4+ cast. 

I'm not convinced that a bridge gunline is a great tournament build or anything but it does force your opponent to make a really hard choice about giving you the first turn or not. Many armies just wont survive if you get the first go and resolve bridge. Of course, armies that deploy off the table are a different problem... but that's going to be true for Darkshard based lists as well.

EDIT: You're paying 80 for bridge. You will likely be taking at least one wizard anyway, so adding that cost isn't exactly fair.

Edited October 25, 2019 by swarmofseals

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I created the WDR statistic, so yeah I know how it works.

I don't and that makes you the perfect person to ask. What is it?

[Sethiris]

On 10/19/2019 at 6:57 AM, swarmofseals said:

The build that I get stuck on is something like this:

 

Hurricanum with battlemage (280)

Runelord (general: hawkeye, artefact: crown of the patricians) (90)

30 Longbeards (shields) (270)

30 Irondrakes (450)

30 Irondrakes (450)

20 Irondrakes (retinue) (300)

Endless Spells: soulscream bridge

Extra Command Point

 

It feels bad not taking an adjutant, but this build isn't very CP hungry anyway and I think keeping the drops as low as possible is important.

Outside of a few specific matchup and battleplan combinations I don't really see how you are supposed to beat this army. The amount of damage that it deals on average is unreal. If you fail to cast bridge and you need to move to get in range you still do a really heavy amount of damage (6 mw, 1.62 r3, 26.74 r2, 38.88 r1), and the 3" bonus from Tempest Eye means your opponent is going to have a hard time keeping away. And you get all that while screening your army behind 30 wounds of 2+ save on the first turn, with a CP available to give reroll 1's to save if your opponent takes the first turn and alpha strikes. Even if your opponent is heavy shooting, all of your shooting also has a 2+ save on the first turn against missile attacks. 

Maybe Changehost would beat this with crazy mortal wound spam?

 

That's about as optimal you can get the whole bridge-setup. You could go for a Wanderer/Aelf version of this with Sisters of the Watch, or go with Kharadron Arkanauts/Thunderers or Freeguild Crossbows/Handgunners or even Stormcast Ballistae/Raptors. The end result is about the same.

I'm running a similar list with a bit of Stormcast mixed in (sub-optimal as I was limited by which miniatures I had available) for a tournament this weekend. 

The one thing I worry about with a list like this is the objective game. How do we cap multiple objectives? Might Shadow Warriors be the solution?

Edited October 25, 2019 by Sethiris

[dekay]

I said it few times already and will repeat it again:

Darkshards strength is in their reliability. Yes, sisters or irondrakes are more efficient in ideal circumstances. Those circumstances require either enemy installing themselves in their range (which is only dependant on their mistakes) or soulscream bridge going off when its needed (which can just randomly fail). For Darkshards, every circumstances are ideal. There is nothing, apart from standing at the opposite corner on the table, that can be done to *not* be shot by our darkshards. As long as we have CP to spare, they will move, run, and shoot. Up to 33 inches from their deployment zone.

So, yes, while not strictly the best in WDR stats, they provide us with degree of control over their effectiveness that their competition simply can't offer.

(this, without the speed bonus and additional access to reliable setup options, radically changes in Living City, but we're talking Tempest's Eye here ;))

The only actual competition I see for them when it comes to 'reliable shooting' option are the Arkanauts, Yes, arkanauts are straight up better when shooting at a monster, and a bit better when shooting at anything else, too. Their skyhooks have only 2 inches less of 1st turn threat range, too. However! I still rate darkshards better. Why? Four reasons

1. When our shooty horde will inevitably die, we are left with their support character. Sorceress is either much cheaper, or she's also a melee flying monster. Khemist kinda loses out here.

2. Sorceress still can generate debuff enemy, cast endless spells and generate CP/snipe characters/buff our units. Khemist is left with a short range shooting attack on a 4 move character. 

3. Enemy manages to snipe our support character first - darkshards lose their speed advantage. But apparently, there's a target close enough to kill their sorceress, so they will have something to shoot at anyway. With full efficiency unless enely dismantles their whole support structure (they lose their to-wound bonus if sorceress was a general, but the same goes for arkanauts). You lose the khemist? Arkanaut firepower gets halved. And there *are* ways to kill him 1st turn, sadly.

4. A least.. well, concrete, reason - Arkanauts + khemist are more efficient on point-per-damage basis, but they are more expensive. Simply speaking, when you Take your standard support structure (hurricanum, possibly Azyros) and add tho that darkshards+sorceress segment, you have more place to put in another efficient unit block working on their own. Kharadrons give you less space for that. Plus require you to take at least 6 other units to fit them in. So army building for darkshards is just easier. You can fit a shadow warrior unit and a cheap endless spell for what you save on going darkshards route. And those shadow warriors are one of those things able to shoot enemy khemist if they try to claim superiority of Arkanauts ; )

Thank you for your attention, this has been another episode of 'i liek darkshards' ; )

[zilberfrid]

I do think Darkshards would be good, better even, but I don't have em. Crossbows will have to do.

[dekay]

4 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I do think Darkshards would be good, better even, but I don't have em. Crossbows will have to do.

I just finished, with heavy heart, dismantling my spireguard to give them new career, so soon non-proxied darkshards will be a thing for me ; )

I will have to find a use for a lot of spears and shields I had to remove.

 

And crossbowmen I actually like - they have longest range out of our static options, they can very easily be buffed for 2+/2+ (without using hawk eyed, even, eaving place for other command trait!) and they're cheap. And you can buff multiple units with a single general. Plus, it's a good use for old quarreler models for all those who have them ; )

[Televiper11]

Revised my 1K list for Sunday:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Warden King (110)
- General
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant 
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Aura of Glory 
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
10 x Hammerers (140)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue
20 x Freeguild Handgunners (200)
- Marksman
10 x Ironbreakers (130)
Steam Tank (200)
Soulsnare Shackles (40)
 

Total: 1000 
Wounds: 67

Edited October 25, 2019 by Televiper11

[swarmofseals]

13 hours ago, Kramer said:

I don't and that makes you the perfect person to ask. What is it?

WDR is a statistic that allows you to compare offensive efficiency across different types of rend. Most people just do the math assuming a specific armor save (often 4+) which will bias your results. WDR assigns a multiplier to each rend value and to mortal wounds that is based on the advantage you get from that level of rend against the full range of armor values, weighted for expected frequency. I gave saves of 4+ and 5+ a weight of 3, 3+ and 6+ a weight of 2, and 2+ and - a weight of 1. So a damage type's effectiveness against 4+ and 5+ saves is counted three times as much as it's effectiveness against 2+ and - saves. 

So in order to calculate it I simply calculate the expected value of the damage dealt, multiply that by the modifier from the rend/mortal type, and divide by the points cost of the unit.

12 hours ago, Sethiris said:

The one thing I worry about with a list like this is the objective game. How do we cap multiple objectives? Might Shadow Warriors be the solution?

That's definitely one of the bigger question marks. I think you probably end up playing from behind on VPs, but being able to re-cast bridge does mean that you can get your units around the table once the enemy is mopped up. Needs plenty of testing for sure though. Shadow Warriors could be good, but it really depends on how high you are willing to push your drops.

10 hours ago, dekay said:

I said it few times already and will repeat it again:

Darkshards strength is in their reliability. Yes, sisters or irondrakes are more efficient in ideal circumstances. Those circumstances require either enemy installing themselves in their range (which is only dependant on their mistakes) or soulscream bridge going off when its needed (which can just randomly fail). For Darkshards, every circumstances are ideal. There is nothing, apart from standing at the opposite corner on the table, that can be done to *not* be shot by our darkshards. As long as we have CP to spare, they will move, run, and shoot. Up to 33 inches from their deployment zone.

So, yes, while not strictly the best in WDR stats, they provide us with degree of control over their effectiveness that their competition simply can't offer.

Absolutely, and that's why they are a valid choice! One warscroll I don't see mentioned a lot that has pretty similar strengths to Darkshards is Handgunners. Handgunners are a bit slower, but they are way less reliant on not moving than sisters or Irondrakes (just like Darkshards). They are a bit less efficient, but they get two main benefits:

• They don't need a specific character type to buff them. Freeguild Generals are nice and all, but you can get these to 2+/2+ without any command abilities.
• They can stand and shoot, which is really powerful. 

[Aelfric]

2 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

They don't need a specific character type to buff them. Freeguild Generals are nice and all, but you can get these to 2+/2+ without any command abilities.

Can you explain how you get the +1 to hit and +1 to wound to get them to 2+/2+ without using the Freeguild General's command ability?  I'm more of an Aelf player, but thinking about getting some Handgunners ( though they'd probably be Aelven conversion).

Thanks.

[swarmofseals]

4 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Can you explain how you get the +1 to hit and +1 to wound to get them to 2+/2+ without using the Freeguild General's command ability?  I'm more of an Aelf player, but thinking about getting some Handgunners ( though they'd probably be Aelven conversion).

Thanks.

Celestial Hurricanum + Hawkeye

[Aelfric]

5 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Celestial Hurricanum + Hawkeye

Ok, thanks.  Not a cheap alternative to a Freeguild General, but an alternative nonetheless.  Giving up "Swift as the Wind" on your General might be hard too - well for me at least.

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Aelfric said:

Ok, thanks.  Not a cheap alternative to a Freeguild General, but an alternative nonetheless.  Giving up "Swift as the Wind" on your General might be hard too - well for me at least.

I think Hawkeye in a Pistoleers batallion will deal more damage than Swift as the Wind, and all before activation wars even start.

[Aelfric]

48 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I think Hawkeye in a Pistoleers batallion will deal more damage than Swift as the Wind, and all before activation wars even start.

You are probably right, but I have no Pistoleers and, since my aesthetic preference is for Aelves within Cities, my budget and time is restricted enough that I'm not sure that I am likely to buy any.  Perhaps if I can find a way of converting them that I like, I may be inspired to go that route.  I do have the Griffon from Spire of Dawn, so I haven't ruled out creating an Aelven version of the battalion.  

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Aelfric said:

You are probably right, but I have no Pistoleers and, since my aesthetic preference is for Aelves within Cities, my budget and time is restricted enough that I'm not sure that I am likely to buy any.  Perhaps if I can find a way of converting them that I like, I may be inspired to go that route.  I do have the Griffon from Spire of Dawn, so I haven't ruled out creating an Aelven version of the battalion.  

Well, many of my Pistoleers actually are Glade Riders, they just borrowed Pistoleer guns. Not that hard to do.

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

Well, many of my Pistoleers actually are Glade Riders, they just borrowed Pistoleer guns. Not that hard to do.

Unfortunately, I don't have any Glade Riders.  I do have 2 units of Reavers (one painted), but I was considering Wild Riders and hand-swapping pistols on them.  It will mean buying both boxes for each unit, but should still be able to make some outriders as well so will still get a unit from each box.  That would be a longer term project, though.  

[dekay]

19 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Well, many of my Pistoleers actually are Glade Riders, they just borrowed Pistoleer guns. Not that hard to do.

 

17 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Unfortunately, I don't have any Glade Riders.  I do have 2 units of Reavers (one painted), but I was considering Wild Riders and hand-swapping pistols on them.  It will mean buying both boxes for each unit, but should still be able to make some outriders as well so will still get a unit from each box.  That would be a longer term project, though.  

I'm currently building Pistoliers based on Dark Riders (because I don't want any normal horses in my army), and Outriders riding drakespawn. (because the same, plus I love drakespawn models but the knights are terrible.) Also, my darkshards have bows, because I want them a bit more low-tech, and we have no other line infantry with normal bows, so they can't be confused with anything else. Apart from maybe large hordes of shadow warriors that you set up normally at the beginning of the game, and we know how common those will be.

Cool thing about the cities is that you can basically build anything out of anything as long as it fits the theme. Realms are big.

 

And as for handgunners subject - 

22 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Ok, thanks.  Not a cheap alternative to a Freeguild General, but an alternative nonetheless.  Giving up "Swift as the Wind" on your General might be hard too - well for me at least.

You can also look at them from the other way - with help of the freeguild general, they are our one shooting unit that can potentially be boosted to 2+/2+ *without* the need for hawk eyed. Yeah they must stand still for that so it requires either the bridge or using them defensively, but still, there's a possibility.

And if we're using them on the move, yes, they're sometimes better than darkshards, with potential 3+/2+/-1 on the move, buusted even more if they stand still, plus stand and shoot, that's extremely powerful - they basically can't be tied up with any distraction unit as they'll simply kill that on charge. And anything elite can't risk charging them alone unless they spend their salvo on something sacrificial, because losing half of your elite horde, or risking monster dropping dead altogether doesn't sound fun in any capacity.

Handgunners are also a perfect screen for hiding something more important behind, because they can't be safely charged, must be shot, and if you shoot them, you're leaving said elite backline unit unharmed. They don't get much from our 1st turn save boost, but 5+ is better than 6+, so it takes *some* work to shift them.

I wouldn't necessarily see them working in an aetherguard based, alpha strike force, but in something more infantry based with, say, horde of blackguard doing the killing and handgunners supporting them - this has potential.

[zilberfrid]

Dekay, I have given some of my horses Tsaangor heads to make them a bit more Ghur (before I knew that was not where our cities were going to be). There are 24 Tsaangor heads in a box.

[Rune]

1 hour ago, dekay said:

 

I'm currently building Pistoliers based on Dark Riders (because I don't want any normal horses in my army), and Outriders riding drakespawn. (because the same, plus I love drakespawn models but the knights are terrible.) Also, my darkshards have bows, because I want them a bit more low-tech, and we have no other line infantry with normal bows, so they can't be confused with anything else. Apart from maybe large hordes of shadow warriors that you set up normally at the beginning of the game, and we know how common those will be.

Cool thing about the cities is that you can basically build anything out of anything as long as it fits the theme. Realms are big.

 

And as for handgunners subject - 

You can also look at them from the other way - with help of the freeguild general, they are our one shooting unit that can potentially be boosted to 2+/2+ *without* the need for hawk eyed. Yeah they must stand still for that so it requires either the bridge or using them defensively, but still, there's a possibility.

And if we're using them on the move, yes, they're sometimes better than darkshards, with potential 3+/2+/-1 on the move, buusted even more if they stand still, plus stand and shoot, that's extremely powerful - they basically can't be tied up with any distraction unit as they'll simply kill that on charge. And anything elite can't risk charging them alone unless they spend their salvo on something sacrificial, because losing half of your elite horde, or risking monster dropping dead altogether doesn't sound fun in any capacity.

Handgunners are also a perfect screen for hiding something more important behind, because they can't be safely charged, must be shot, and if you shoot them, you're leaving said elite backline unit unharmed. They don't get much from our 1st turn save boost, but 5+ is better than 6+, so it takes *some* work to shift them.

I wouldn't necessarily see them working in an aetherguard based, alpha strike force, but in something more infantry based with, say, horde of blackguard doing the killing and handgunners supporting them - this has potential.

Just thought I'd add that the wording for Piper's (Now stand and shoot) has changed. 

It now says: "Once per turn, when an enemy unit ends a charge move within 3" of this unit and there are no other enemy units within 3" of this unit, this unit can shoot"

So now, if the Handgunners are already in combat they cannot shoot, and they also have to shoot on the first charging unit. So you can charge then with a low value unit to soak the ability

 

[dekay]

48 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

(before I knew that was not where our cities were going to be)

I'm getting a feeling that most of us is going to thoroughly ignore the realm their city is supposed to be from when inventing their own ; ).

For now I'm happy with DR horses - they're weird enough, but those tzaangor-horses of yours looked cool.

14 minutes ago, Rune said:

So now, if the Handgunners are already in combat they cannot shoot, and they also have to shoot on the first charging unit. So you can charge then with a low value unit to soak the ability

Forcing enemy to basically sacrifice a unit to be even able to charge my screen still sounds good enough

[Aelfric]

40 minutes ago, Rune said:

Just thought I'd add that the wording for Piper's (Now stand and shoot) has changed. 

It now says: "Once per turn, when an enemy unit ends a charge move within 3" of this unit and there are no other enemy units within 3" of this unit, this unit can shoot"

So now, if the Handgunners are already in combat they cannot shoot, and they also have to shoot on the first charging unit. So you can charge then with a low value unit to soak the ability

 

Which is why I want to try out 20 Handgunners with 20 SotW behind them.  Hopefully, this would mean that if they charge with a cheap unit the Handgunners will be enough, leaving the SotW to deal with the next unit.  If they send a hard unit in , then both can stand and shoot at the same time.  I don't know how effective it would be and I also have to get 20 handgunners before I can try it out.  This might be something better used in Living City. 

[Televiper11]

Ran this list out to a 1K tourney and did okay: Major Victory against Fyreslayers; Major Loss to Skaven & Khorne but the Khorne was was due to a last minute summoning. I was very happy with this list, minus the Ironbreakers who hit like a wet paper bag. Taking Irondrakes next time.

 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Warden King (110)
- General
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
Runelord (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant 
Battlemage (90)
- Spell: Lore of Eagles - Aura of Glory 
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
10 x Hammerers (140)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue
20 x Freeguild Handgunners (200)
- Marksman
10 x Ironbreakers (130)
Steam Tank (200)
Soulsnare Shackles (40)
Total: 1000 
Wounds: 67

[NatBrannigan]

I was looking at Ironbreakers myself, but they don't seem great for the points. Do people find they need a tougher melee unit to screen shooting troops? Or would more shooting potentially make a better screen? 

So forTelevipers list, would you take something to help screen those handgunners? Just take more handgunners or something else? Would Irondrakes make a better screen that Ironbreakers?

[Furythrow2]

@NatBrannigan My feeling on screens is that you just want them cheap and cheerful. Irondrakes are a killing unit that actually win a battle. For me, some good screens would be freeguild guard with shields ( cheap and potentially resilient) or freeguild handgunners (who can shoot whoever charges them)