Official regulation ? Must minis be painted to be played in a Warhammer Store ?

[michu]

What are you talking about? Really nice Stormcast,

[Maturin]

1 minute ago, michu said:

What are you talking about? Really nice Stormcast,

Nah really. It's worse IRL :D.

[Overread]

Darn it @michu @Maturin one (or ideally both) of you get an avatar for the forum  You're too easy to mix up!! 

[Maturin]

2 minutes ago, Overread said:

And that level of painting would be perfectly fine for an event. 

As for 4 hours - yeah painting takes time. If you an already paint to that level then chances are you and do a decent army for an event. 

Saddly I'll have to do everything again because it turns out Contrast paints wear off very easily if you don't put a varnish spray!

[Overread]

Just now, Maturin said:

Nah really. It's worse IRL :D.

Actually its my experience that photos tend to show up models FAR more so than real life. Depending on how well you take the photo. 

Seriously get a bit closer (or crop) and take your fingers out and lets see it properly. 

[Overread]

1 minute ago, Maturin said:

Saddly I'll have to do everything again because it turns out Contrast paints wear off very easily if you don't put a varnish spray!

Yes this is one weakness of the contrast paint. It will certainly need sealing with a varnish. 

[Maturin]

1 minute ago, Overread said:

Actually its my experience that photos tend to show up models FAR more so than real life. Depending on how well you take the photo. 

Seriously get a bit closer (or crop) and take your fingers out and lets see it properly. 

Ok, my GF's coming and she's got an Iphone. It takes way better pictures than my 8years old galaxy phone

[michu]

@Maturin It's your first miniature - it's not going to look like Golden Demon entry. But it's painted and only that counts. Even barely painted army looks better than unpainted.

Look how Duncan's first miniature looked like, yours is already better.

Spoiler

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by michu

[Maturin]

23 minutes ago, michu said:

Look how Duncan's first miniature looked like, yours is already better.

Wow, was he 8 ?

[michu]

He painted it in 1997, so maybe ?

[Melcavuk]

Its worth mentioning most in store tournaments arent "Official Events" in that its literally the manager driving footfall into the shops, and as such all requirements, planning and specification for said tournament are entirely down to that Stores manager. They are able to, entitled to and often will assign whatever requirements they want for the tournament in the hopes of it boosting footfall and sales, as ultimately they are judged on sales and atv (average transaction value) as opposed to running events that fit each individuals style.

For this reason painted is almost always a requirement, as it sells paint. It also provides better advertising to sell models when players face a fully painted, fully assembled army. Essentially your role as a participant is a somewhat mobile mannequin for their product lines, yes you get a great day of tournament out of it but the stores benefit is from selling more.

Official events, such as those at Warhammer World, or the Citadel, all require fully painted, correctly based models, with all conversions or variation requiring prior approval from the events team. 

[Carnith]

At the GW store I play at, having an unpainted army means nothing. You can still play at the store, because the manager also knows that if he says you can't play cause of unpainted, a lot of people won't come back and the store looks empty. For events, such as an apoc game we did for some anniversary, it was that you got d3 extra command points for being fully painted, a nice incentive to get work done. For the warcry event that gw is holding, the rule is that your army must be fully painted to participate and gave players a month to paint up 6-10 dudes. 

Also a bonus incentive, our manager takes pictures of models that people paint up and throw them on facebook. 

[zedatkinszed]

At my local GW I was shocked when the manager said "we encourage painted minis" but they don't require it at games nights. I'd be surprised if at AOS GW game night anyone would bat an eyelid for a beginner to turn-up with a grey or semi-grey force.

Personally I only field painted armies and I do feel a bit let down when my opponent hasn't made an effort. But that's a sliding scale. These days with a mature gaming circle there's a lot of nice minis and ppl with painting skills. But we all started somewhere and I would have zero issue playing someone's half painted force if it was their first army or first few months in the hobby. If they've been in the hobby 10-20 years (like I have) then not so much.

Edited September 1, 2019 by zedatkinszed

[Maturin]

5 minutes ago, zedatkinszed said:

At my local GW I was shocked when the manager said "we encourage painted minis" but they don't require it at games nights. I'd be surprised if at AOS GW game night anyone would bat an eyelid for a beginner to turn-up with a grey or semi-grey force.

That's a mature thing to do.

 

9 minutes ago, zedatkinszed said:

Personally I only field painted armies and I do feel a bit let down when my opponent hasn't made an effort. But that's a sliding scale. These days with a mature gaming circle there's a lot of nice minis and ppl with painting skills. But we all started somewhere and I would have zero issue playing someone's half painted force if it was their first army or first few months in the hobby. If they've been in the hobby 10-20 years (like I have) then not so much.

A lot of you who reacted to Sleboda's post have a problem to understand something, YOUR Hobby is YOURS, not everyone has the same goal.


If somebody shows with a grey force, it doesn't hurt YOUR way of doing the hobby, after all nobody deprives you the enjoyment of paiting and showing great minis. Some people don't even play with their minis, they just paint  them. People don't always find the time or do not have the skill to do a proper job. It's not about how long they have been in the hobby. What are you going to do about someone who has like 1 hour of free time a day to do something else beside working, commuting, studying, taking care of his family if they don't want to spend it on painting ? NOTHING and that's not for you to decide.
I don't understand how people can be so annoyed about somebody's not wanting or being able to spend as much time as they do on a hobby.
Are you guys GW stockholders ?

I really think some of you have confusing ideas about where your boundaries cease. You are you. Somebody else is somebody else. If they don't have the same way/time of seeing the hobby, then whoy care ? It's not like they're spitting in your face, stealing from you or whatever criminal or anti-societal action they could do.
The only thing I ask of any person I play with, is not to cheat. Period. Being fair play and polite is great, if furthermore they're nice guys to talk with while playing or afterwards that's a bonus.

I don't know if that's because english is not my mother tongue that you don't understand what I mean or ...

[Maturin]

1 hour ago, Melcavuk said:

Its worth mentioning most in store tournaments arent "Official Events" in that its literally the manager driving footfall into the shops, and as such all requirements, planning and specification for said tournament are entirely down to that Stores manager. They are able to, entitled to and often will assign whatever requirements they want for the tournament in the hopes of it boosting footfall and sales, as ultimately they are judged on sales and atv (average transaction value) as opposed to running events that fit each individuals style.

For this reason painted is almost always a requirement, as it sells paint. It also provides better advertising to sell models when players face a fully painted, fully assembled army. Essentially your role as a participant is a somewhat mobile mannequin for their product lines, yes you get a great day of tournament out of it but the stores benefit is from selling more.

Official events, such as those at Warhammer World, or the Citadel, all require fully painted, correctly based models, with all conversions or variation requiring prior approval from the events team. 

Yes, totally logical point.

50 minutes ago, carnith said:

At the GW store I play at, having an unpainted army means nothing. You can still play at the store, because the manager also knows that if he says you can't play cause of unpainted, a lot of people won't come back and the store looks empty.

That's what might happen to me in a very near future as I'll finally become my own boss, I'll work 7 days a week, at least 9 hours a day then I'll have to study for my Master's degree, then commute (1h30 a day) , then spend some time with my GF. So if that's down to not allow me to play because people are FEELING disrespected (the logical business explanation is actually more relatable to me) then the Store will lose one client. The manager won't care , because he has plenty of groupies in need of a place to play/hang out, but that will make one less "normal" guy in the GW. And believe me, that particular GW is in dire need of regular people.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Maturin

[Maturin]

Now I thank all of you, for giving your view on this matter, especially those who tried to explain their point of view/stance in a positive and encouraging manner!

@Overread @michu It took me way to long to paint my 1250points and then again, everything was finished. The Store manager let me play because I decided to be in the tournament like less a month before its start. So that's nice from him. Thing is spend 4 hours on a mini to have a mediocre result, whereas some people can achieve the same result in 20mins! And time is of the essence ...
PS : the lib's hammer is broken bc I stripped him of paint for I wasn't happy with my level of painting, so that's another loss of time!

Edited September 1, 2019 by Maturin

[Kramer]

5 hours ago, Maturin said:

Why should I be punished for being bad at painting and/or too perfectionnist

Why should I be punished because my opponent sets a too high painting standard for himself? 

Whay army would you like to play? Because especially with contrast a base coat and a contrast layer on every different ‘block’ and your set.  Just like everything in life it’s just not practice. 

(Also if it’s a good really that big of an issue, maybe look for some commission painter in your area)

[Clan's Cynic]

6 hours ago, Maturin said:

Would it be condone by GW?

These largely fall on a store-by-store basis in the same way the allowance of Forge World models does. If HQ inquired, he'd probably say that he has an X% increase of paint sales around tournaments when he requires it and that would be the end of it. By the same token, another store might say allowing grey plastic encourages people who're paint-shy to buy more kits to participate. 

One of the stores near me is absolutely fine with grey plastic on any and all occasions, including tournaments. 

One of the other stores near me will give bonuses to the opponent when attacking an unpainted model.

Warhammer World events do require painted/based, however.

[Overread]

@Maturin its important to realise that the miniatures are part of this hobby, a big part. It's why we choose to buy them from GW and to play with plastic models on the tabletop instead of just all going and playing Total War Warhammer on the computer; or playing with cardboard cutouts on the table instead of miniatures. For many a big part of the experience is the visual one and part of that is having models on the table. A second part is having paint on the models. It's part of creating the imagination with the scene - so having your black armoured stormcast is FAR more engaging than just some grey plastic with the odd splotch of white finecast. 

 

Sure they are your models and its your hobby and you can totally choose not to paint or even to assemble them. Thing is each game is a cooperation of at least two people. For some they won't care; for some they won't care within limits (eg your new army so yeah it might be grey or part grey for a bit); for some they will care a bit; for some they will care a lot and will refuse you a game. 

There is no solid right nor wrong save that the majority of gamers would aim toward painted armies and will encourage that from others.

 

 

As for time, its my experience that with creative endeavours you will speed up when you stop worrying about speeding up. When you focus on what you are doing and don't worry about the time or such and you focus more on the act itself. You will lose time worrying about going faster because you will try to take shortcuts that will, often as not, wind up taking you longer when something goes wrong. In addition the more you do something the faster you get. You say some paint up in 20mins - well honestly some might ,but they won't. Paint takes time to dry. Painted over too soon and it messes things up. So they might paint 1 mini with a coat of paint for 20mins; then they'll paint the next in the batch with the same colour and so on. Then by the time they've put the last layer on the last mini the first might well be dry for the second layer of paint (this might be the same colour as they go for two thin coats for good coverage or might be a new colour entirely).

The model you show above is fine for tabletop quality. Sure you can practice some highlighting to give the dark areas some additional definition along the edges and a lot of practice will help there immensely. 

 

Like I said see if there's any local people or even teh GW store owner who can set aside time to help you learn to paint. It won't be a 2 hour lecture; if anything it will be smaller bits of advice. Touching up here and there; tips on how to hold the brush etc... Often as not its a lot of little subtle things that make the difference not big revelations of difference. 

[Maturin]

25 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Why should I be punished because my opponent sets a too high painting standard for himself?

Well, you're not. Your minis are good looking, mine aren't.
That's where I differ from all of you, I don't care or feel disrepected by what another player do! If I want to see good looking minis, I can read White Dwarf, go online, or just look at the Store's miniature, or come during painting events

Edited September 1, 2019 by Maturin

[Maturin]

20 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

These largely fall on a store-by-store basis in the same way the allowance of Forge World models does. If HQ inquired, he'd probably say that he has an X% increase of paint sales around tournaments when he requires it and that would be the end of it. By the same token, another store might say allowing grey plastic encourages people who're paint-shy to buy more kits to participate.

That would be a very interesting enquiry to read !

[VBS]

44 minutes ago, Maturin said:

If somebody shows with a grey force, it doesn't hurt YOUR way of doing the hobby, after all nobody deprives you the enjoyment of paiting and showing great minis. Some people don't even play with their minis, they just paint  them. People don't always find the time or do not have the skill to do a proper job. It's not about how long they have been in the hobby. What are you going to do about someone who has like 1 hour of free time a day to do something else beside working, commuting, studying, taking care of his family if they don't want to spend it on painting ? NOTHING and that's not for you to decide.
I don't understand how people can be so annoyed about somebody's not wanting or being able to spend as much time as they do on a hobby.
Are you guys GW stockholders ?

I really think some of you have confusing ideas about where your boundaries cease. You are you. Somebody else is somebody else. If they don't have the same way/time of seeing the hobby, then whoy care ? It's not like they're spitting in your face, stealing from you or whatever criminal or anti-societal action they could do.
The only thing I ask of any person I play with, is not to cheat. Period. Being fair play and polite is great, if furthermore they're nice guys to talk with while playing or afterwards that's a bonus.

I don't know if that's because english is not my mother tongue that you don't understand what I mean or ...

I don't think the point is to force others to do what you enjoy, nor to force others to spend as much time on the hobby as you do...

But for many of us, playing a decent looking table with painted models (no matter how good/bad the paint is) is an essential part of the hobby. It is the way we understand and enjoy the hobby. This does not mean others should adhere to this way of gaming/hobbying, because there are dozens of ways to do so (none of them being right or wrong). However, it means that if I encounter someone that is only interested in rolling dice no matter how pitiful the conditions, I will simply walk away. Because I do not enjoy spending my time playing against a plastic grey mass. I'm sure other people actually do. Good for them.

That's why we should stick to like-minded individuals when hobby-socialising (gaming ,etc). I suppose that for tournaments, there are other factors that influence the need of paint, as others pointed out (visibility, etc). So avoiding those type of tournaments wouldn't be a bad idea if it is not the way you like the hobby.   

[Maturin]

1 hour ago, VBS said:

I don't think the point is to force others to do what you enjoy, nor to force others to spend as much time on the hobby as you do...

But for many of us, playing a decent looking table with painted models (no matter how good/bad the paint is) is an essential part of the hobby. It is the way we understand and enjoy the hobby. This does not mean others should adhere to this way of gaming/hobbying, because there are dozens of ways to do so (none of them being right or wrong). However, it means that if I encounter someone that is only interested in rolling dice no matter how pitiful the conditions, I will simply walk away. Because I do not enjoy spending my time playing against a plastic grey mass. I'm sure other people actually do. Good for them.

That's why we should stick to like-minded individuals when hobby-socialising (gaming ,etc). I suppose that for tournaments, there are other factors that influence the need of paint, as others pointed out (visibility, etc). So avoiding those type of tournaments wouldn't be a bad idea if it is not the way you like the hobby.   

Nicely put.

Although, I have to say, most people I play against have nothing against grey armies. They prefer painted ones, but will happily play against anybody.
What I wanted to know was if there was some official statement from GW. Because that's the manager who told me that "I was lucky that he let me play".

Anyway, cheers for your input.

[GuitaRasmus]

3 hours ago, Maturin said:

That's a mature thing to do.

 

A lot of you who reacted to Sleboda's post have a problem to understand something, YOUR Hobby is YOURS, not everyone has the same goal.


If somebody shows with a grey force, it doesn't hurt YOUR way of doing the hobby, after all nobody deprives you the enjoyment of paiting and showing great minis. Some people don't even play with their minis, they just paint  them. People don't always find the time or do not have the skill to do a proper job. It's not about how long they have been in the hobby. What are you going to do about someone who has like 1 hour of free time a day to do something else beside working, commuting, studying, taking care of his family if they don't want to spend it on painting ? NOTHING and that's not for you to decide.
I don't understand how people can be so annoyed about somebody's not wanting or being able to spend as much time as they do on a hobby.
Are you guys GW stockholders ?


I don't know if that's because english is not my mother tongue that you don't understand what I mean or ...

I think we understand you just fine, we just don't agree with you. 

Playing against unpainted armies DOES hurt my enjoyment of the game - for me (and many others) this game is all about IMMERSEMENT. That's the reason we buy expensive, beautiful miniatures, build awesome terrain and read fluff. Immersement. Building a small world, playing out a heroic combat, etc. etc. That element tends to disappear when faced with a grey blob, and what is left is just a game. Why bother with terrain or miniatures then? Why not just have cardboard cutouts with writing on them? Using your logic, would you find it fun to play against blank bases with unit names written on them, on a pink piece of cloth, with kitchen utensils as terrain? 

Your opinion is absolutely valid and you are absolutely entitled to it. However, 95% of other wargamers I've met, be they casual, competitive or tournament organisers, want to play against something painted. You don't have to make them perfect - you just have to make an effort. It has nothing to do with being brainwashed by GW, stockholders or anything else - it has everything to do with immersement. My main enjoyment in this hobby is modelling - converting and assembling - however, I still paint my stuff, both for me, but also for my opponents enjoyment. Seriously, lower your standards. Do you really find it better to have unpainted miniatures, than having decently or ok painted ones? To me, that's like preferring to starve, rather than eating ramen noodles. If you find contrast paints hard to use, just use washes - I've done that for years, with great results. 

You are free to set up a gaming community where you can play painted, unpainted, unassembled, cardboard pieces, whatever. Just keep in mind that there is probably a reason why almost all tournaments (even independent ones) have mandatory painting. 

Edit: your free time is for you to decide what to do with. No one can tell how to spend it. However, no one can tell me how to spend mine either, and having limited spare time too, I want my wargaming time to be quality time - so I choose to play against painted miniatures. Most people I know do to. I have nothing against playing against someone who just started an army a couple of months ago, and them being mostly unpainted - however, if you still play unpainted after a year or two, we're just not on the same page hobby-wise (you are probably just interested in the game, I am interested in immersement) and it's probably better if we both find another opponent. 

Edited September 1, 2019 by GuitaRasmus

[Maturin]

HEy there, thanks for your input.

Actually, a lot of guys I played against, who are in their 40ies, didn't have any money back then, and used cardboard paper, white paper sheets or anything else at the time to represent the units they would have liked to play. And they enjoyed it! So when I started the hobby in 2014, I bought second hand armies, built grey armies, and nobody ever complained. Those guys were socially akward, but hobby wise, they were really open minded.

You made a point about immersement. I'll tell you what, I once dabbled with the same guys in WHFB Pen and Paper Role play game. The setting ws incredible, the GM great, I was trying to really play a condescending Wood elf apprentice wizard( and was talking in a condescending way to other players, doing gestures as I imagined an elf would,etc, but they ruined it for me because they were either telling me about their private life, politics or about all the WH40k kits they bought this very week.
Thing is, to ME, there is no immersement when I play tabletop games, even on a very painted table full of painted landscapes and terrains and with perfectly pâinted units. You're playing in a GW, you've got customers coming in and out, you've got all those strange 20something geeks with body odour problems, where's the immersion ? Even at a friends home, he's got his wife calling, you have his child running around, he has to cook, etc.

As you said, to each his own, I can perfeclty understand most of you guys would rather play against somebody who painted an army. For me, it's about the people I'm facing. I'd rather play a very funny, nice, fair play, smart dude with a grey army, rather than play against a perfectly painted army played by a guy who has nothing interesting to say, who's not fair play or is a pain in the ass. Don't forget we also get some people in my GW, who are clearly showing sign of mental problems (and you may think I'm a ****** due to what I wrote earlier, but to the contrary, I talk to them as if they were as normal as I am).

 

20 minutes ago, GuitaRasmus said:

My main enjoyment in this hobby is modelling - converting and assembling - however, I still paint my stuff, both for me, but also for my opponents enjoyment. S

Converting and modeling is fun, but I also spent several hours using bits to make great weapons for my prosecutors coming out of the base box set. It was tedious! Rewarding but tedious!
Maybe I have a peculiar way of looking at playing this game, but to me, my opponents enjoyment should come out of my personnal behaviour, or humane qualities, not about if I have enough time to paint during 200 hours for a 2000 points army