AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[Obeisance]

Personally, I think the Crawler is mediocre at best. But, it's one of only two guns we have. I've played against it and wasn't impressed.

The problem with the Crawler is that it costs 200pts and has no rend. It needs some buff stacking to get the most out of it. IE; Spirit Guide and an extra attack 

I mean, sure, it can shred chaff infantry but we already do that. It can target characters, which is great. I find that with being an elite army, I can't assign units to babysit it.  It's hard enough keeping forward momentum to take objectives while still keeping hold of your own and preventing fast/teleporting units from snagging them.

I own two. One is assembled, the other still in box. My experience is from across the other side of the table.

...

I'm such a conversation killer.

[Major]

2 hours ago, Obeisance said:

Personally, I think the Crawler is mediocre at best. But, it's one of only two guns we have. I've played against it and wasn't impressed.

The problem with the Crawler is that it costs 200pts and has no rend. It needs some buff stacking to get the most out of it. IE; Spirit Guide and an extra attack 

I mean, sure, it can shred chaff infantry but we already do that. It can target characters, which is great. I find that with being an elite army, I can't assign units to babysit it.  It's hard enough keeping forward momentum to take objectives while still keeping hold of your own and preventing fast/teleporting units from snagging them.

I own two. One is assembled, the other still in box. My experience is from across the other side of the table.

...

I'm such a conversation killer.

Yeah I figured the same but its in so many GT lists these days that surely I/we must be missing something!? I mean 1 seems perhaps not enough but 2 is apparently gold but cant see how for 400 points!?

[Eldarain]

Coming from the other side of the table the Crawler has a huge impact on your opponents behaviour/what choices are viable. IME:

5 wound casters without good saves that can't do their job cowering behind terrain are right out.

Even characters with moderate armor need to be hugging cover to avoid dropping dead to the super accurate sniper catapult fire.

The way you place your models is affected as long as the targeted model removal shot is available. Not being able to screen as efficiently because half your unit can be dusted from 3+ feet away is a big deal as is losing 200 points of Varanguard because you had 3 of them in a line.

 

[Obeisance]

Yeah, maybe I should actually give them a shot myself.  I typically favour playing aggressively.

400pts for two is huge though. That's six Stalkers, who I find to be A++ blenders.

Do you find they need a babysitter, or would you leave them on an objective alone?

[MetaMaxy]

Ok so after quite a few games with ny current list and have a few losses do to pure lack of mobility...I have come up with a new brew and am looking for feedback.

 

Nagash - 880

 

20 Mortek Guard - 260

20 Mortek Guard - 260

5 Kavalos Deathriders -180

5 Kavalos Deathriders - 180

1 Mortek Crawler - 200

 

Endless Spell

Bonetithe Shrieker - 30

Total: 1990

 

I cut a crawler, boneshaper, and nightmare predator for 10 boney ponies. I'm hoping with the speed of the horses it'll be easier for my to screen and capture objective half the table away. But I don't know if I should go 10, 10, 20 with the Mortek Guard instead of 20, 20.

 

 

[Major]

9 minutes ago, MetaMaxy said:

Ok so after quite a few games with ny current list and have a few losses do to pure lack of mobility...I have come up with a new brew and am looking for feedback.

 

Nagash - 880

 

20 Mortek Guard - 260

20 Mortek Guard - 260

5 Kavalos Deathriders -180

5 Kavalos Deathriders - 180

1 Mortek Crawler - 200

 

Endless Spell

Bonetithe Shrieker - 30

Total: 1990

 

I cut a crawler, boneshaper, and nightmare predator for 10 boney ponies. I'm hoping with the speed of the horses it'll be easier for my to screen and capture objective half the table away. But I don't know if I should go 10, 10, 20 with the Mortek Guard instead of 20, 20.

 

 

Honestly, I am not sure you will have the RDP's to be as effective with this list as you need to be. Nagash gives you one and then you are reliant on rolling 6's of which you get 6 chances wich is 1 in 6 chance so estimate 2 RDP's plus a D3 of them from nagash if you get the spell off. I am just not sure this is enough for 2 hero and 2 combat phases every battle round. You wanna make sure you have that added rend and you wanna use the command abilities on those deathriders when they charge. There is also a lot of stuff there that will require regen and while Nagash can put out a lot, the boneshaper can come in seriously handy to the point I usually take 2 so each unit of 20 guard has their own boneshaper backing them up.

[MetaMaxy]

I have found the boneshaper to be extremely lackluster every time ive used him for the 10 games. I was worried about RDP and while the rend ability is extremely handy I only use it here and there. The main ability I use basically every turn is Nagash's and the Mortek Guard's. But yeah this is the main issue I was concerned about, but wanted to trial it and see if it is extremely detrimental. 

On average I should generate 4 (1 Nagash, 1 for 6 die rolls, and 2 from Nagash's spell) so we'll see how it goes. If it is super crippling, then I'll have to make some adjustments.

Edited February 19, 2020 by MetaMaxy

[Major]

2 hours ago, MetaMaxy said:

I have found the boneshaper to be extremely lackluster every time ive used him for the 10 games. I was worried about RDP and while the rend ability is extremely handy I only use it here and there. The main ability I use basically every turn is Nagash's and the Mortek Guard's. But yeah this is the main issue I was concerned about, but wanted to trial it and see if it is extremely detrimental. 

On average I should generate 4 (1 Nagash, 1 for 6 die rolls, and 2 from Nagash's spell) so we'll see how it goes. If it is super crippling, then I'll have to make some adjustments.

brings back 3 models, can cast a spell and is a guaranteed RDP so long as he is living. I find they really help make sure your guard arent leaving the table but I think its a matter of preference more than anything for people. Some like em and others dont.

[MetaMaxy]

7 minutes ago, Major said:

brings back 3 models, can cast a spell and is a guaranteed RDP so long as he is living. I find they really help make sure your guard arent leaving the table but I think its a matter of preference more than anything for people. Some like em and others dont.

Don't get me wrong. If you can keep him near a 20 man squad of Guard it's great! Along with Nagash you're bringing back 6 guard a turn. It just feels like he gets picked off quite often and that's even when he's hugging the 20 man with God Bone Armor.

 

I REALLY love my Nagash and I'm super reluctant to let him go. But I wonder how replacing him with Arkhan and Katakros would go. I'll try this build for a bit and then give the Katakros and Arkhan build a spin. But Nagash is just such a dominant force that even replacing him with 2 other strong heroes feels bad =/

[Nasrod]

Katakros - 500 [General]
Mortisan Soulmason - 140 [Godbone Armor]

Mortek Guard x 40 - 440 [Spears]
Mortek Guard x 20 - 260 [Swords]
Mortek Guard x 10 - 130 [Swords]

Crawler - 200
Crawler - 200

Mortek Shield-Corps - 120

1990/2000

---

Other than this list being incredibly boring and as vanilla/cheesey as possible, surely this must be something people have tried and found issue with? 

Truth is I like the way hoards of skeletons look, and not taking Katakros' model seems like a shame aesthetic wise... idk. I wouldn't bring this against casual opponents for sure but it just looks so fun to play. 

[Dolomyte]

The issue with that list is it’s slow as hell. The catapults will do nothing in as many or more games then they win by themselves, and the rest of the army can be bogged down in its own deployment zone by anything with a modicum of speed and survival ability 

[Major]

STUCK BETWEEN THESE TWO:

1.
Liege-Kavalos (200)
- General
- Command Trait : Mighty Archaeossian
- Artefact : Godbone Armour
Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (880)
Mortisan Boneshaper (130)
- Lore of Mortisans : Mortal Contract
Mortisan Boneshaper (130)
- Lore of Mortisans : Drain Vitality
UNITS
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- 2 x Soulcleaver Greatblades
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- 2 x Soulcleaver Greatblades
10 x Mortek Guard (130)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- 1 x Soulcleaver Greatblades

2.
Katakros, Mortarch of the Necropolis (500)
- General
Mortisan Boneshaper (130)
- Artefact : Godbone Armour
- Lore of Mortisans : Arcane Command
Mortisan Boneshaper (130)
- Lore of Mortisans : Empower Nadirite Weapons
UNITS
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- 2 x Soulcleaver Greatblades
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- 2 x Soulcleaver Greatblades
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- 2 x Soulcleaver Greatblades
BEHEMOTHS
Gothizzar Harvester (200)
Mortek Crawler (200)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Bone-tithe Shrieker (30)
Soulstealer Carrion (20)

[Goldy751]

i really lost my love for OBR a bit. It has such a bad reputation that it has become unfun to play imo. 
 

is playing Petrifex elite considered a ****** move or is it fair to play them?

are there any onther ways to play this army without getting my opponent to get angry about how “OP” this army is. 
 

while i really like the model, the reputation is really what kills it for me. 
 

anyone got any advice for me?

[Bryan I Guess]

It is absolutely fair to play Bonereapers. Bonereapers are IMHO one of the most "fair" armies out there. Everything we do is right there on the table. I feel like it is up to our opponents to unlock the potential of their army and come up with answers to the questions that our army asks.

[Obeisance]

I've only had one player complain. He was playing Stormcast, an experienced player who I wrecked in a tournament. He was so salty. He believes Stormcast can't win against OBR.

He teleported units in, shot, camped objectives. Fed me a screen unit and unit behind. I debuffed and killed them, rolled up the table.l

Other than that game, people don't really talk about OBR. We're a meta threat for sure, but people are way more focused on how broken Tzeentch is. 

[Sception]

8 hours ago, Goldy751 said:

is playing Petrifex elite considered a ****** move or is it fair to play them?

Imo, given how overpriced most of the units feel in other legions, petrifex may be the *only* fair way to play bonereapers.

That said, warhammer undead have always had a problem with feelbads / negative play experiences at the table, largely due to the summoning/recursion gimmick.  Even when points costs and rules balance have adequately accounted for it, opponents still feel bad when they wipe out a bunch of models only to see them all return to the table in your next magic phase.

OBR don't restore as many models at a time, but they're much tougher to begin with, which is it's own brand of frustrating that makes the handful of models you do restore all the more frustrating.

And then there's the Catapult, with its ability to readily snipe support heroes from behind enemy lines, and even pick out individual models which can cause a lot of heartache for people who string out their units.  Now, the obvious answer there is *don't* string out your units when facing it, but the feelbads persist even after they've adjusted their tactics to avoid the danger.  This isn't an exclusive obr problem, people have been complaining about shooting in AoS since AoS was released, but it is one more complaint layered on top of the other.

Again, none of that is unfair.  OBR are expensive, their offense isn't great for their points outside of stalkers, their defense is also pretty lackluster for the points outside of morteks, and their numbers overall are very limited, both in model and unit count, which makes capturing and holding objectives quite difficult.  It's really only the petrifex rules that raise the army up to being at all threatening.  Don't bet me wrong, *with* petrifex the army *is* threatening, but nowhere near the kind of broken that Flesh Eaters or Slaanesh were in their day or that Tzeentch is right now.  OBR are tough, and hurty, but they don't have the kind of teleportation or summoning or out-of-sequence-attacking or option-limiting type shenanigans that really twist the game.

 

That said, there are other factions that do struggle against OBR, factions that are a lot worse off or that have a hard time hurting us at all due to relative lack of rend & mortals, or that rely on fragile, short range support heroes that get easily sniped off the board by any shooting at all.  And even for stronger factions, there are players who have difficulty adapting to fight us due to limited collections, lack of money & time to buy & paint new units, narrative investment in running the less good parts of their factions, or just lack of interest in developing list building & tabletop game skill.  That's not a knock on anyone, this hobby is multifaceted and people whose interest leans harder on the narrative & painting end of things aren't "doing it wrong".

Honestly, the amount of hassle and cost involved in keeping up with the shifting competitive meta means they're probably the smart ones.

Point is, while Petrifex OBR are far from broken in the competitive sense, it's entirely possible that your personal pool of opponents might have a lot of trouble dealing with the army, in which case you might be better served by switching to one of the other legions in order to give them more of a fighting chance.  That said, the gap between petrifex and non-petrifex is so wide that you could go from them having a bad and frustrating time playing against your army to the complete reverse.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Sception

[Goldy751]

13 minutes ago, Sception said:

Imo, given how overpriced most of the units feel in other legions, petrifex may be the *only* fair way to play bonereapers.

That said, warhammer undead have always had a problem with feelbads / negative play experiences at the table, largely due to the summoning/recursion gimmick.  Even when points costs and rules balance have adequately accounted for it, opponents still feel bad when they wipe out a bunch of models only to see them all return to the table in your next magic phase.

OBR don't restore as many models at a time, but they're much tougher to begin with, which is it's own brand of frustrating that makes the handful of models you do restore all the more frustrating.

And then there's the Catapult, with its ability to readily snipe support heroes from behind enemy lines, and even pick out individual models which can cause a lot of heartache for people who string out their units.  Now, the obvious answer there is *don't* string out your units when facing it, but the feelbads persist even after they've adjusted their tactics to avoid the danger.  This isn't an exclusive obr problem, people have been complaining about shooting in AoS since AoS was released, but it is one more complaint layered on top of the other.

Again, none of that is unfair.  OBR are expensive, their offense isn't great for their points outside of stalkers, their defense is also pretty lackluster for the points outside of morteks, and their numbers overall are very limited, both in model and unit count, which makes capturing and holding objectives quite difficult.  It's really only the petrifex rules that raise the army up to being at all threatening.  Don't bet me wrong, *with* petrifex the army *is* threatening, but nowhere near the kind of broken that Flesh Eaters or Slaanesh were in their day or that Tzeentch is right now.  OBR are tough, and hurty, but they don't have the kind of teleportation or summoning or out-of-sequence-attacking or option-limiting type shenanigans that really twist the game.

 

That said, there are other factions that do struggle against OBR, factions that are a lot worse off or that have a hard time hurting us at all due to relative lack of rend & mortals, or that rely on fragile, short range support heroes that get easily sniped off the board by any shooting at all.  And even for stronger factions, there are players who have difficulty adapting to fight us due to limited collections, lack of money & time to buy & paint new units, narrative investment in running the less good parts of their factions, or just lack of interest in developing list building & tabletop game skill.  That's not a knock on anyone, this hobby is multifaceted and people whose interest leans harder on the narrative & painting end of things aren't "doing it wrong".

Honestly, the amount of hassle and cost involved in keeping up with the shifting competitive meta means they're probably the smart ones.

Point is, while Petrifex OBR are far from broken in the competitive sense, it's entirely possible that your personal pool of opponents might have a lot of trouble dealing with the army, in which case you might be better served by switching to one of the other legions in order to give them more of a fighting chance.  That said, the gap between petrifex and non-petrifex is so wide that you could go from them having a bad and frustrating time playing against your army to the complete reverse.

Thanks for the detailed reply. It has definetly helped me. 
 

i havent had many games with OBR yet and most of them have been sort of negative experiences. 3 games i was stuck with a badly written 1250 point PE list in a small tournament. Got tabled each game, only won one. 
 

the other game was the first game i used my crawler. My friends call it broken but i see it as a fairly balanced unit. Although the frustration factor is amongst the highest in the game lol.  I sniped a few heroes but he shot back at the catapult taking off about 6 wounds. You should have seen his face when i healed the crawler 6 wounds becouse a shaper and Arkhan were in range. 
 

My bonereaper army has expanded a decent bit since the last time I used it so i should be able to write better lists and figure out wich legion best fits my meta to give everyone a fair chance. 

 

again thanks everyone for the advice. Really appreciate it. 
 

[Obeisance]

So based on the conversation earlier, I've started assembling my second Crawler. Next time I play, I'm gonna try them both out.

I've also been feeling Arkhan's a bit lackluster. He's more like.. just a utility piece? I find the biggest problem with him is Protection of Nagash. It's too good not to cast on him (especially if you're facing down a pair of Cabbages who can reach nearly anywhere on the table) but if you want to commit him to combat, which he's not terrible at, he needs to activate first or risk Protection triggering. I've had multiple games where I've needed to have him kill stuff, only to need to activate other things as a priority and the opponent squeezes through a single point of damage. Don't get me wrong, I get a lot of use out of Command, Drain, his ability to force through spells and stop the opponent from casting.. but I don't know if it's enough.

I'm gonna try out Katacross as I'm yet to play him.

 

[Arcian]

On 2/25/2020 at 12:01 AM, Obeisance said:

I'm gonna try out Katacross as I'm yet to play him.

 

I will say that Katakros is a monster of a support piece, he brings a ton to the table. Though i'm not sure if he's absolutely worth his points, but he does FEEL really good to use.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Arcian

[Lightbox]

So now that I have Arkhan (just need to build him) I now actually have enough of a collection to properly try a fun little 2000 point list. So I'm probably gonna try something like the following in my next game:

Allegiance: Crematorian

Heroes:

Leige Kavalos - General - Helm of the ordained

Boneshaper - Searing blade

Boneshaper

Arkhan the black

Units:

5x Kavalos deathriders - spears

5x Kavalos deathriders - swords

20x Mortek Guard - swords

3x Necropolis Stalkers (debating giving one them the falchions for rule of cool)

Behemoths:

Gothizzar Harvester

Endless Spells:

Nightmare predator

Batallions:

Kavalos Lance

[Goldy751]

I see a lot of people use the liege over zandtos. Is there much of a difference?  
I just like the zandtos model a lot better. 
 

Or should i just use the zandtos model as a unnamed liege? 🤔

[JackStreicher]

On 2/24/2020 at 4:28 PM, Goldy751 said:

is playing Petrifex elite considered a ****** move or is it fair to play them?

That‘s a hard one.

against a lot of Matchups Petrifex is too good. In others however you really need to be a Petri.

 

the only thing that’s always a ****** move is to play Nagash in Petrifex imo.

[Lightbox]

26 minutes ago, Goldy751 said:

I see a lot of people use the liege over zandtos. Is there much of a difference?  
I just like the zandtos model a lot better. 
 

Or should i just use the zandtos model as a unnamed liege? 🤔

I gave my liege the spear from Zandtos because I thought it looked way better.

I'd say go with whatever model you'd like for whichever profile. Just be clear with your opponent and there should be no issue.

I personally don't use Zandtos because I like to give my liege a relic. For most subfactions the liege will gain some fun stuff from the alliegance that Zandtos won't unless you use the legion he's from. The regular liege also has a different command ability (and points cost, very important in our small elite faction) so that may also contribute to why he's taken.

[Sception]

If the thing you like more about Zandtos is the rearing mount pose, you should know that you can use zandtos's horse legs and still use either rider & horse head parts.  Here's my own liege kavalos from earlier in the thread:

....

As for game rules - the generic liege kavalos can be any legion, and as such it can benefit from legion bonuses, including those of the mighty petrifex elite.  As a generic hero, you can also give it whatever relic you like, which will typically be the required relic of your legion.  These are mostly either defensive artifacts that help keep this important support piece on the table, or else they're weapon artefacts that the liege kavalos can make much better use of than any of your other heroes.

By comparison Zandtos is locked into the Praetorians.  You can *field* him in any legion, but he'll only gain legion benefits in a praetorian army.  He also has a fancy command ability, but it also only works for Praetorian units, so while he can use it on himself in any army, he can only use it on more threatening units if you're playing praetorians.  Instead of being able to assign him any artefact, he comes with a fancy lance, but the fancy lance isn't very impressive.  A petrifex liege with the godbone armor is dramatically more resilient than zandtos, while a null myriad liege with their artefact sword is a lot more personally threatening.  Otherwise Zandtos is the same as a generic liege - same +1 attack command ability, same stats - but costs more points.

..

So, yeah.  Unless you're playing Mortis Praetoreans, Zandtos is a liege kavalos that is worse but costs more.  And he can make your other heroes worse, too, since you might end up having to give a faction artefact to a mortisan that would much rather have a generic artefact to boost their casting ability.  If you are playing Mortis Praetoreans then Zandtos is more interesting, especially if you're playing against a chaos army, thanks to his unique command ability, but even then I wouldn't say he's objectively better than the generic version due to the whole pushing the faction artefact onto a mortisan issue.

He's definitely not bad, though, even outside of praetoreans.  If you like him, you can run him in casual games.  It's just that the generic version is basically just the same but better.

[Casandora Yellow]

I wish they had that pose without the finger feet in front. Hooves for life!

Would it be easy to convert to hooves. I know they use different leg/shin pieces