The Rumour Thread

[madmac]

5 minutes ago, EonChao said:

There's also a business side of things that probably benefits GW. If you play an army that you have most of and their new book comes out with only a single new hero then you probably pick that up and, much as you might want more new stuff, are fairly content to have had a cheap release. And for some people that's an appeal, it means the for the completionists that they can justify owning a few armies with the knowledge that they can probably generally keep on top of releases. Or it means that someone with just one army might decide they can afford to start a second project, or get into one of the smaller games.

It basically lets you still feel like you got something, whilst keeping you vaguely interested incase something else comes out that might get them another sale from you.

Well sure, that's the psychology behind it. As far as the original worry that it's going to lead to armies ending up with 25 heroes and no new units eventually...I would assume that hopefully no one has to go that many editions without a real update, right? If things get that bad that's not a failing of the pity hero system, it's a complete failure by GW to support any army that ends up in that state.

[Arzalyn]

4 minutes ago, EonChao said:

There's also a business side of things that probably benefits GW. If you play an army that you have most of and their new book comes out with only a single new hero then you probably pick that up and, much as you might want more new stuff, are fairly content to have had a cheap release. And for some people that's an appeal, it means the for the completionists that they can justify owning a few armies with the knowledge that they can probably generally keep on top of releases. Or it means that someone with just one army might decide they can afford to start a second project, or get into one of the smaller games.

I Imagine that is the circle they are going for, having a sizeable release followed by small releases (aka foot hero) for some editions until new stuff appear again and make you focus more in that faction again. I imagine that having even more models to buy each new edition can be quiet taxing as you never feel you finished that army (SCE players can correct my if I'm wrong as SCE is in this space). I wonder if that is the reason there are so many small factions that didn't get expasions, so you can get everything from it, move on to a new faction and end with multiple armies rather than just one with over 40 warscrolls.

Just now, madmac said:

Well sure, that's the psychology behind it. As far as the original worry that it's going to lead to armies ending up with 25 heroes and no new units eventually...I would assume that hopefully no one has to go that many editions without a real update, right? If things get that bad that's not a failing of the pity hero system, it's a complete failure by GW to support any army that ends up in that state.

They will eventually update those factions with more models, but it can take a while to get there. AoS is still young, but I imagine that in 2~3 edition from now we gonna start see more units getting axed from battletomes that got too much options already in order to make space for new models (heroes in particular).

[cofaxest]

21 minutes ago, King Under the Mountain said:

Tired of people trying to will Dwarf Soup into existence every edition.  Kharadron and Fyreslayers are as unique culturally Wood Elves and Dark Elves from Fantasy or Empire and Bret's.  Just because they are the same species dosent mean they can just be thrown together without losing what makes them what they are. 

 

Tired of people without imagination...

[madmac]

3 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

I imagine that having even more models to buy each new edition can be quiet taxing as you never feel you finished that army (SCE players can correct my if I'm wrong as SCE is in this space).

This is certainly true on the other side of things. One of my armies is Fyreslayers, obviously I'm always hungry for more Fyreslayer models it's an incredibly rare thing, whereas for me Stormcast are just a side project that I deliberately keep very small and focused. I'm sure Stormcast players who buy every release exist, but they probably don't also run a bunch of side armies. I do think in general that the bigger an army range, the more likely most players are to build a themed list rather than trying to collect the whole thing.

[Ganigumo]

19 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

While I do like the Kruelboyz, I do think it was something of a wasted opportunity to re-introduce 'Greenskinz' as a middle-ground between Ironjawz and the Savage Orcs Bonesplitterz. It would have gone some way to making feel 'Warclans' feel closer to the Orcs & Goblins of WHFB, which presumably was their intent.

Whereas Kruelboys feel like they're being held back by virtue of being closeted in a soup book. They're different, but don't feel different enough, like they exist in a weird purgatory that wasn't intended for them.

Kruleboyz are Greenskinz though. You still have most of the same units, gutrippaz are boyz, boltboyz are arrer boyz, vulcha's are wyverns, etc. with a few extra toys. Only boarboyz and boar chariots don't have replacements. The army even has grot assistants all over the place.

The problem is that the narrative surrounding them is about being cruel and sneaky. So the reimagined version of an army that pushed massed infantry forward is an army that by the narrative should be a tricky finesse army.

The models actually match the greenskinz playstyle far better too, they pretty much have exclusively infantry and heroes, and the way the army "wants" to play is by slowly pushing forward with gutrippaz, and supporting them with your heroes and some shooting, which still plays a lot like greenskinz (or more accurately O&G).  Its a bit weird that a sneaky army is so reliant on massed infantry too, as its about the least sneaky of all the unit types.

Its almost like they decided to push the sneaky part after all the models were finished, maybe to avoid the orruk armies all playing too similarly.

[Ragest]

44 minutes ago, King Under the Mountain said:

Tired of people trying to will Dwarf Soup into existence every edition.  Kharadron and Fyreslayers are as unique culturally Wood Elves and Dark Elves from Fantasy or Empire and Bret's.  Just because they are the same species dosent mean they can just be thrown together without losing what makes them what they are. 

 

How a soup makes you “lose” anything?

[Ragest]

double post

Edited February 14, 2023 by Ragest

[madmac]

4 minutes ago, Ragest said:

How a soup makes you “lose” anything?

Currently, KO get a new hero, and Fyreslayers get a new hero.

If souped: Only one of them gets a new hero

[cofaxest]

3 minutes ago, madmac said:

Currently, KO get a new hero, and Fyreslayers get a new hero.

If souped: Only one of them gets a new hero

In 2ed only KO get a new hero. 

[Beliman]

29 minutes ago, cofaxest said:

In 2ed only KO get a new hero. 

But we are not in 2.0 anymore! So lucky!

Edit:

38 minutes ago, Ragest said:

How a soup makes you “lose” anything?

Yep, I will try to answer that:

• Orruk Warcland: If you play Ironjawz, you have 32 pages of material (appart from rules). Some of this pages are shared with other Orruk clans, so not 100% Ironjawz (paiting, armies photoshots, etc...).
• Kharadron overlords: If you play Kharadrons, you have 59 pages of awesome and sexy Kharadron stuff (appart from rules).

So, we could lose over 50% of good stuff. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Beliman

[King Under the Mountain]

35 minutes ago, Ragest said:

How a soup makes you “lose” anything?

A number of ways they lose things.

Model wise - Until Ironjawz get's some kind of update, I'm not convinced that Post-Soup armies receive much support. 

Lore Wise - Read my post you quoted.  Fyreslayers are a god-worshiping cult based around the traditional element of fire while Kharadron Overlords are a hyper-capitalistic faction of Steampunk Sky Pirateer's.  The factions couldn't be more different and the only reason people want to squish them together is because they both are Dwarfs.  While Humans and Elves have had multitude of unique factions going back decades.

I would say calling for soup is very much "lack of imagination" .

[cofaxest]

6 minutes ago, King Under the Mountain said:

A number of ways they lose things.

Model wise - Until Ironjawz get's some kind of update, I'm not convinced that Post-Soup armies receive much support. 

Lore Wise - Read my post you quoted.  Fyreslayers are a god-worshiping cult based around the traditional element of fire while Kharadron Overlords are a hyper-capitalistic faction of Steampunk Sky Pirateer's.  The factions couldn't be more different and the only reason people want to squish them together is because they both are Dwarfs.  While Humans and Elves have had multitude of unique factions going back decades.

I would say calling for soup is very much "lack of imagination" .

I can imagine good soup for Khazalid empire rebuild as an option to field my duardins. Sad that you can't. 

[cofaxest]

40 minutes ago, Beliman said:

But we are not in 2.0 anymore! So lucky!

Edit:

Yep, I will try to answer that:

• Orruk Warcland: If you play Ironjawz, you have 32 pages of material (appart from rules). Some of this pages are shared with other Orruk clans, so not 100% Ironjawz (paiting, armies photoshots, etc...).
• Kharadron overlords: If you play Kharadrons, you have 59 pages of awesome and sexy Kharadron stuff (appart from rules).

So, we could lose over 50% of good stuff. 

If I want to read something good about my faction I just go and buy some novels or campaign books. But your point is valid ofc.

Edited February 14, 2023 by cofaxest

[Ragest]

37 minutes ago, King Under the Mountain said:

A number of ways they lose things.

Model wise - Until Ironjawz get's some kind of update, I'm not convinced that Post-Soup armies receive much support. 

Lore Wise - Read my post you quoted.  Fyreslayers are a god-worshiping cult based around the traditional element of fire while Kharadron Overlords are a hyper-capitalistic faction of Steampunk Sky Pirateer's.  The factions couldn't be more different and the only reason people want to squish them together is because they both are Dwarfs.  While Humans and Elves have had multitude of unique factions going back decades.

I would say calling for soup is very much "lack of imagination" .

CoS (already a soup book) had more new heroes than FS (1) and same as KO (2) post release with one less book.

 

They can separate the lore in two in the tome and keep developing it in novels or wds, and is not neccessary to cut the number of pages, my Drukhari codex has 40 pages of lore or parades, my craftworlds codex has 80.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Ragest

[dirkdragonslayer]

1 hour ago, Ragest said:

How a soup makes you “lose” anything?

Well, two ways;

• Lore-wise the battletome needs to be split multiple ways. Instead of 40 pages of lore dedicated to your guys in great detail, you will get 15 to you and 15 pages to your Battletome partner, then 10 pages explaining why you are working together. Gloomspite splits it 5 ways now; Moonclan, Squigs, Troggs, Spiders, and Wolf Riders.

• Model-wise, the way GW does minor releases there's a chance you get nothing for a whole edition. Like how after Bonesplitterz were combined with Ironjawz (and later Kruleboyz) the Bonesplitterz haven't really gotten anything since. No obligatory hero like the solo battletomes get. Maybe next update you will be left alone while another part of the book like Kruleboyz or Moonclan or Beastclaw Raiders get new things you can't use. Bonesplitterz got a neat named Wurrgog through Underworlds, but that's been their only major change in 2 editions.

I think soup armies work well in destruction since we lump together well, and I don't want to come across as complaining about my favorite grots. But I can see the issue with factions with a lot of solo potential like Kharadrons being souped.

Edited February 14, 2023 by dirkdragonslayer
Bonesplitterz kept auto-correcting to Beastsnaggas

[Arzalyn]

38 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Orruk Warcland: If you play Ironjawz, you have 32 pages of material (appart from rules). Some of this pages are shared with other Orruk clans, so not 100% Ironjawz (paiting, armies photoshots, etc...)

To illustrate further, Ironjawz, Kruleboyz and Bonesplitterz get less traits and artefacts than other tomes get, which are less options. Mount triats have to be balanced between 3 factions as well. 

I'm not sure how much they take big wagg into consideration while balancing the book warscrolls, but if they do, it can affect what your warscrolls do just because they can be used together in the shared faction (which I seldom see someone use).

[Ragest]

4 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

To illustrate further, Ironjawz, Kruleboyz and Bonesplitterz get less traits and artefacts than other tomes get, which are less options. Mount triats have to be balanced between 3 factions as well. 

I'm not sure how much they take big wagg into consideration while balancing the book warscrolls, but if they do, it can affect what your warscrolls do just because they can be used together in the shared faction (which I seldom see someone use).

I think that the problem with Orruks is not that they are a soup book, is that how poorly synergized it is.

 

If you look at Lumineth, is a soup book aswell, is well differentiated between temples, each with unique subfaction, battle traits, artefacts, spells and command traits; but you can mix and match placing the temples out of their respective subfacion being a little less powerful but still working as intended. 

[dirkdragonslayer]

For me, it's mostly the loss of lore pages that bothers me. I can compare my 7th edition and 8th edition Ork codexes to my 9th edition one, and it's just a bit sad. Kinda like what happens in AoS books, the Beastsnagga Orks are treated like a separate faction sharing the same book in how they are presented (and how their rules synergy works). Half the book's lore goes to regular Orks, half went to the new Beastsnagga Orks. A page of lore on a particular vehicle gets paired down to a short paragraph with no art, or combined with another unit's paragraph. The book didn't get bigger, it actually got a little smaller. Also while I like them, the section for Crusade stuff also took like 15ish pages from the lore section.

Different game, different situation, but I think it's pretty similar it how GW treats adding/combining things.

[Ganigumo]

15 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

To illustrate further, Ironjawz, Kruleboyz and Bonesplitterz get less traits and artefacts than other tomes get, which are less options. Mount triats have to be balanced between 3 factions as well. 

I'm not sure how much they take big wagg into consideration while balancing the book warscrolls, but if they do, it can affect what your warscrolls do just because they can be used together in the shared faction (which I seldom see someone use).

Honestly I don't think this is a problem with it being soup, and more just that they really botched the warclans book in general. Bonesplitterz were oversimplified and Kruleboyz were half baked and the rules reek of being scared they'd be too strong.

[Enoby]

2 minutes ago, dirkdragonslayer said:

For me, it's mostly the loss of lore pages that bothers me. I can compare my 7th edition and 8th edition Ork codexes to my 9th edition one, and it's just a bit sad. Kinda like what happens in AoS books, the Beastsnagga Orks are treated like a separate faction sharing the same book in how they are presented (and how their rules synergy works). Half the book's lore goes to regular Orks, half went to the new Beastsnagga Orks. A page of lore on a particular vehicle gets paired down to a short paragraph with no art, or combined with another unit's paragraph. The book didn't get bigger, it actually got a little smaller. Also while I like them, the section for Crusade stuff also took like 15ish pages from the lore section.

Different game, different situation, but I think it's pretty similar it how GW treats adding/combining things.

Might just be me, but I did feel the lore in the recent Slaves to Darkness book was weaker than the previous one. Now, I may be misremembering the previous one so feel free to call me out, but I think it had more of those in universe stories and they were longer, adding a more person feel to Chaos - a faction which I think exemplifies "your guys". 

[DinoJon]

but seriously are we getting a Thunder Lizard or a Coatl?

[cofaxest]

21 minutes ago, dirkdragonslayer said:

Well, two ways;

• Lore-wise the battletome needs to be split multiple ways. Instead of 40 pages of lore dedicated to your guys in great detail, you will get 15 to you and 15 pages to your Battletome partner, then 10 pages explaining why you are working together. Gloomspite splits it 5 ways now; Moonclan, Squigs, Troggs, Spiders, and Wolf Riders.

• Model-wise, the way GW does minor releases there's a chance you get nothing for a whole edition. Like how after Bonesplitterz were combined with Ironjawz (and later Kruleboyz) the Bonesplitterz haven't really gotten anything since. No obligatory hero like the solo battletomes get. Maybe next update you will be left alone while another part of the book like Kruleboyz or Moonclan or Beastclaw Raiders get new things you can't use. Bonesplitterz got a neat named Wurrgog through Underworlds, but that's been their only major change in 2 editions.

I think soup armies work well in destruction since we lump together well, and I don't want to come across as complaining about my favorite grots. But I can see the issue with factions with a lot of solo potential like Kharadrons being souped.

We all see alot of potential in ANY even very small faction BUT being option to be represented as united force also can be considered as an option to move forward. More so we can get new releases that will looks like combination of traits from other factions. How about KO ships powered by FS runes? Or flying FS with KO riggs? Does this mean that KO and FS can't be expanded on their own? Ofc not, but IMO more options - always better. 

[Arzalyn]

9 minutes ago, Ragest said:

If you look at Lumineth, is a soup book aswell, is well differentiated between temples, each with unique subfaction, battle traits, artefacts, spells and command traits; but you can mix and match placing the temples out of their respective subfacion being a little less powerful but still working as intended. 

Honestly I'm not sure I would call lumineth a soup book. There a cohesive theme even between different temples that mash well together. I think the temples are more like expansions/specialization on some particular concepts than something you would see as an standalone army. Maybe when we get Tyrion side it will look more souped. Honestly orks are the different soup as they have stand alone allegiances and a combines one. Other soups as ogres and cities share the same allegiance and just have this option.

 

3 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Honestly I don't think this is a problem with it being soup, and more just that they really botched the warclans book in general. Bonesplitterz were oversimplified and Kruleboyz were half baked and the rules reek of being scared they'd be too strong.

Good point, it fell more as a soup problem as they are the unique faction with this problem, but it may not be.

[madmac]

2 minutes ago, cofaxest said:

BUT being option to be represented as united force also can be considered as an option to move forward. More so we can get new releases that will looks like combination of traits from other factions. How about KO ships powered by FS runes? Or flying FS with KO riggs? Does this mean that KO and FS can't be expanded on their own? Ofc not, but IMO more options - always better. 

KO Ships with Fyreslayer runes: Yuck

Flying FS with KO riggs: Yuck

I think you just don't get what people like about the existing dwarf armies...

[King Under the Mountain]

34 minutes ago, Ragest said:

CoS (already a soup book) had more new heroes than FS (1) and same as KO (2) post release with one less book.

 

They can separate the lore in two in the tome and keep developing it in novels or wds, and is not neccessary to cut the number of pages, my Drukhari codex has 40 pages of lore or parades, my craftworlds codex has 80.

Hero's are not what im referring to when I say support.  But I don't think we will reach an agreement on this, I prefer to keep my Fire Bearded and Sky-Faring Dwarfs separate and unless GW does a serious pivot, then they will stay that way.