The Rumour Thread

[EccentricCircle]

6 hours ago, KriticalKhan said:

I'm going to toss my hat in the ring before the lore talk get mod-nuked, but Warhammer was, historically, a setting, not a narrative. By that I mean it wasn't like the MCU where every piece of new content was pushing forward an overarching narrative, they were shining a light on different parts of the universe where smaller, independent stories were told. The Core Book, Codexes, campaigns, etc. weren't the latest comic telling the next part of Mr Imperium Main Protagonist's (Guilliman....) life, they were meant to introduce you to a faction, show you a cool new place in the world, and said, "Now go have fun." 

If you wanted a story to happen, you'd read a Black Library novel or MAKE one with your battles with the people you played against. It wasn't "stagnant," it was a setting where players and supplementary material created their own narratives.

I say "was" for a reason, as we've seen with post-Gathering Storm 40k and now AoS, that GW has shifted their approach. We're seeing a larger overarching story that gets pushed forward with new content, albeit very slowly, and that is, I believe, by design. GW isn't trying to write Lord of the Rings here, they're still writing something players are meant to set their battles in and authors are meant to write around. So we're not going to get Guilliman reuniting the Imperium and finding all the loyalist Primarchs, or Kragnos ruining Sigmar's plans in six months of releases, because after that happens... then what? You have to keep writing more, and more, and more new, different things to happen in order to keep stuff interesting, and when they want all their characters they're selling to feature in the lore so players keep using them, they can't keep writing dozens of different plotlines around them without ending up in the same situation that DC and Marvel comics are in. Spoilers for them, but it ain't a good one.

GW is playing the long game. They're planning releases three, even four years ahead, and they have to write these developments under the assumption that they'll be keeping AoS and 40k around for another 30 or 40 years. 

Any developments in the "narrative" (and I hesitate to even call it one) are going to be minor, and they're going to happen very, very slowly.

Also, Kragnos is like the Avatar of AoS: everyone keeps talking about Kragnos, but only to talk about how no one cares about Kragnos. It's very funny to me that his biggest impact on the community seems to be a meme about him being horny for Alarielle.

I agree totally. This has always been the problem with Metaplots across pretty much all gaming. RPGs have it in spades.

The setting has to adhere to a status quo dictated by the products the company wants to sell, so it can't advance in a satisfying manner. You either get "big events" with no lasting impact on the status uo, or you get an end times situation where things do change, but in the process it's no longer the setting you had before.

The solution though is for us as players to tell our own stories through narrative campaigns, which can be as sweeping and earth shattering as we want. This was the original intent of game settings before things like D&Ds dragonlance led to the style o rolling, externally imposed narrative we have today. The setting was fixed at the point YOUR campaign starts  and all the history described in the books serves as inspiration for what could happen next.

But the onus is on us to make that world our own and tell whatever story we want to tell, rather than waiting for an official supplement to tell us what cam or should happen.

Now, the downside to this approach is that your world will diverge from everyone else's. Beyond your player group no one else will acknowledge those events, and official material will need a bit more work to implement. However AoS is big enough that there is space for lots of !medium scale stuff to be happening. 

This is though why I prefer to make my own setting. I'd rather take inspiration from canon and then go do my own thing with those ideas, rather than be beholden to a metaplot which will break my narrative, while not providing a good enough substitute of its own!

 

[Beliman]

7 hours ago, KriticalKhan said:

I'm going to toss my hat in the ring before the lore talk get mod-nuked, but Warhammer was, historically, a setting, not a narrative.

Not sure if both terms are exlusive. Maybe in a one-shot product the setting is just an small sample of world building that it doens't need to be detailed, just to support the main narrative.

But Warhammer is not just a game, it has books, series, videogames, side-games, etc.. the main products are wargames but they have a lot more going on. Campaigns, new editions, seasoned rules, commemorative miniatures, anniversary miniatures, etc... each of this products can have their own narrative, but ALL of them come from the main setting, that needs to be rich enough to nourish all this stories.

Another thing to take in mind is how the users recieve and understand all the information that is shared. You can have an awesome setting, but if people don't know or only see a fraction of it, maybe it will not have any meaningful impact on your community.

Imo, AoS needs more campaign units, artifacts or traits that follow the main narrative line (look at Fyreslayers and "Leader of the Duardrazhal", that's what I'm talking about), more "historical" matched play Battleplans and more characters/miniatures linked to great and old stories or events.

[Ogregut]

So my aelf supply drop arrived and its not what I was expecting at all! 

 

[EonChao]

46 minutes ago, Ogregut said:

So my aelf supply drop arrived and its not what I was expecting at all! 

 

Oh damn, that’s much better than expected. If it’s okay to ask what region are you in?

[pnkdth]

3 hours ago, MitGas said:

In general I agree with you. But I found the tales of a Tantalus or Niobe more interesting than just exclusive stories about the Gods themselves. So a second „tier“ of named characters isn‘t bad. It‘s also not completely missing and thankfully the writers, as novakai pointed out, try to show the realms not just in the typical over-the-top style but I‘m dead certain that AoS will get much more love when the setting is better defined in the general fandom‘s eye. 
 

many people loved how defined Warhammer was after all. More room for creativity is definitely good but a healthy mix of the two extremes will help the setting I bet.  

One thing I really do miss in AoS is the ability to create interesting/powerful heroes to represent my slice of fantasy land in AoS. Nearly every single interesting hero unit in AoS is a named character which means there's almost no room for, well, fantasy and player-driven world building. You COULD run with unnamed units, of course, but they ironically lack character and soul.

There should be interesting unique characters AND be possible to customise unnamed heroes (AoA doesn't count). I think that also connects to what you said about both extremes. A sandbox is always more fun if there's a solid foundation to play within and create new cool stuff. Freedom within a framework (setting with established rules and guidelines since otherwise it just devolves into a bunch of Gary Stu/Mary Sue Power-fantasy nonsense).

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by pnkdth

[Gitzdee]

16 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

One thing I really do miss in AoS is the ability to create interesting/powerful heroes to represent my slice of fantasy land in AoS. Nearly every single interesting hero unit in AoS is a named character which means there's almost no room for, well, fantasy and player-driven world building. You COULD run with unnamed units, of course, but they ironically lack character and soul.

There should be interesting unique characters AND be possible to customise unnamed heroes (AoA doesn't count). I think that also connects to what you said about both extremes. A sandbox is always more fun if there's a solid foundation to play within and create new cool stuff. Freedom within a framework (setting with established rules and guidelines since otherwise it just devolves into a bunch of Gary Stu/Mary Sue Power-fantasy nonsense).

 

I am out of likes but i 100% agree with this.

It used to be so much fun dumping 100 extra points into my Scuttleboss General and make him hit like a truck. He has led many little waaaghs to victory.

Edit: I hope 4.0 will include more options for unnamed heroes. Dont see it happening this edition.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Gitzdee

[Gitzdee]

Any rumours about a potential BoC vs Gitz box i might have missed?

[Nezzhil]

11 minutes ago, Gitzdee said:

Any rumours about a potential BoC vs Gitz box i might have missed?

The battleboxes are released 4-5 weeks before the book. If we are expecting the book to be released in February I think it is very improbable a Gitz vs BoC box is coming this time

[Ogregut]

51 minutes ago, EonChao said:

Oh damn, that’s much better than expected. If it’s okay to ask what region are you in?

I'm in the UK 

[EonChao]

2 minutes ago, Ogregut said:

I'm in the UK 

Thank you, just hoping mine arrives soon 😅

[KingBrodd]

New Cadian Upgrade Sprue is incredible!! Really hope we get something like this in the future for Fyreslayers!!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/04/new-year-new-bayonets-the-cadians-get-an-upgrade-sprue-crammed-with-characterful-components/

[Goatforce]

Not AoS, but has anyone put this up yet?

Very exciting if true! I get the impression it is from a reliable source too

[Vasshpit]

So theres an upgrade sprue now for a kit that hasnt even been released on its own yet? 

 

Also these would great for a lot kits to get. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Vasshpit

[EonChao]

18 minutes ago, Goatforce said:

Not AoS, but has anyone put this up yet?

Very exciting if true! I get the impression it is from a reliable source too

Remember to take it with as much salt as you want to. Valrak's got a few reliable leakers based on 40k stuff but this is still far out.

That said with Tomb Kings and Bretonians being the factions that were completely cut out with the jump to AoS I could see them being included as the starter box.

[Goatforce]

1 minute ago, EonChao said:

Remember to take it with as much salt as you want to. Valrak's got a few reliable leakers based on 40k stuff but this is still far out.

That said with Tomb Kings and Bretonians being the factions that were completely cut out with the jump to AoS I could see them being included as the starter box.

True, but I think in his vid he did say this was from one of his reliable sources that generally come out right

[Arzalyn]

28 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

So theres an upgrade sprue now for a kit that hasnt even been released on its own yet? 

The box was leaked by a ebay ad. I imagine that why they are revealing it now.

[Gothmaug]

5 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

I agree totally. This has always been the problem with Metaplots across pretty much all gaming. RPGs have it in spades.

The setting has to adhere to a status quo dictated by the products the company wants to sell, so it can't advance in a satisfying manner. You either get "big events" with no lasting impact on the status uo, or you get an end times situation where things do change, but in the process it's no longer the setting you had before.

 

 

Not entirely true, There are a few RPG's out there that bucked that trend. The World of Arcanis by Paradigm Concepts used to buck that trend by releasing tournament series adventures, which were played by the fan base at home, thier local stores, etc. At the end of the session, the dungeonmaster would fill out a questionnaire at the end of the adventure and send it into Paradigm. At the end of each year, they would tally up the results for each scenario, and change the world accordingly for the next year. For example ,m if there was a scenario where the players were trying to avert a war, and 60% of the tables that year reported failing in that part of the mission, then moving forward in the canon, the war took place. Paizo did this as well for Pathfinder to a certain extent with their tournament series games. 

 

Warhammer could easily do something like this, where a grand tournament could have a theme, and depending on which faction had the most winning armies participate, they could then change the lore for the following year. Imagine if the outcome for a war was actually determined by the players, and then became cannon in future books? That would be epic, and engage the fanbase in a meaningful way. 

[The Brotherhood of Necros]

Just imagine if your characters or units fielded in these tournaments had even a tiny chance of being written into future battletome background/stories, if they pulled off something especially noteworthy in one of your games.

Suddenly the tournament scene, so long the territory of competitive gamers and mathhammer players, becomes more interesting and inviting to a whole new audience. 🤩 

Edited January 4, 2023 by The Brotherhood of Necros
Messed up the quotes

[rattila]

Well they did something like this with the 13 crusade (for 40k) and the storm of chaos (for Battle). Turns out not so well because some factions were sur-represented and other almost not there. Plus, for 40k they had so much imperium player that they had to tweak the result to make a story, because otherwise abaddon stayed in the Eye. Same for Battle but the other problem : they had to slow the advance of chaos because it was way too fast. Still a nice try. Maybe that, by opening this only at the tournament some problems would be solved but it seem a lot of effort. Or maybe just saying : this particuliar tournament will decide the fate of this planet, assuming its not one of the essential worlds for the setting.

[Sunshine]

1 hour ago, Goatforce said:

Not AoS, but has anyone put this up yet?

Very exciting if true! I get the impression it is from a reliable source too

I hope this is true. I would love a Bretonnia and Tomb Kings starter set, and updated models for Bretonnia and the Dwarfs.

[Ogregut]

1 hour ago, Goatforce said:

Not AoS, but has anyone put this up yet?

Very exciting if true! I get the impression it is from a reliable source too

If true I hope it means new tomb King models as the old line isn't great. 

I'll much rather kislev in the box however, something new and exciting. 

[EonChao]

54 minutes ago, Goatforce said:

True, but I think in his vid he did say this was from one of his reliable sources that generally come out right

Oh I'm taking it as fairly likely based on Valrak's current track record. I'm not a fan of him but it feels like he usually won't commit to a leak now unless he's seen something or it's coming from someone who's given him accurate information in the past. But we're still probably a year or two out from the Old World, things can change and there's plenty who will jump to take it as completely factual and get their hopes up.

[CommissarRotke]

4 hours ago, Ogregut said:

So my aelf supply drop arrived and its not what I was expecting at all! 

very jealous of that DOK box! congrats!

55 minutes ago, EonChao said:

That said with Tomb Kings and Bretonians being the factions that were completely cut out with the jump to AoS I could see them being included as the starter box.

i can't really see this but I suppose if TOW is going to be a straight up cash grab it makes sense? idk... this being the first starter box feels like it kowtows to all the hate towards AOS, while leaving out the biggest factions during TOW's time period. very weird choice to me especially when Kislev was the first model teaser.

[CommissarRotke]

20 minutes ago, rattila said:

Well they did something like this with the 13 crusade (for 40k) and the storm of chaos (for Battle). Turns out not so well because some factions were sur-represented and other almost not there. Plus, for 40k they had so much imperium player that they had to tweak the result to make a story, because otherwise abaddon stayed in the Eye. Same for Battle but the other problem : they had to slow the advance of chaos because it was way too fast. Still a nice try. Maybe that, by opening this only at the tournament some problems would be solved but it seem a lot of effort. Or maybe just saying : this particuliar tournament will decide the fate of this planet, assuming its not one of the essential worlds for the setting.

I actually remember being scared of the Storm of Chaos event because it felt like so many more people were on the Chaos side, and what would it even mean for Middenheim to actually fall? And I don't mean in a good way: if Chaos had won the tournament games I have no idea what GW would've needed to do to maintain their narrative status quo. They had hyped up Middenheim as the "lynchpin Empire city" where if it fell everything else would too. Can't exactly keep going for years if your protagonist faction gets shattered by a player tournament...

[Beliman]

48 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

Not entirely true, There are a few RPG's out there that bucked that trend.

There is a wargame that is already crafting it's narrative with a "living world". Conquest, the Last Argument of kings.

Each day, any player, painter or whatever can cast a vote in their main web to see what all characters are going to do, what new factions are going to enter the setting/narrative and all this stuff. It's up to you If you want to base your vote using games as the main source but some TO can send their tournament results too.

At the ens of the year, the narrative will advance and reflect what people voted. Even if there are milions of trolls, you can't just nuke a civilization and remove an army from the game, but maybe some cities will fall, some sellswords are going to change flags, some characters are going to die... 

Btw, really great game!