AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Salyx]

9 hours ago, AngryPanda said:

AoS has nailed a lot of concepts, but personally I’ve found the game’s approach to designing StD/Warriors of chaos to be underwhelming. Back in Warhammer Fantasy chaos warriors were melee powerhouses that could go toe-to-toe with other armies, even elite units. It made sense, as the lore described them as armored warriors who’s lives have been dedicated to war and carnage in the pursuit of personal power. When you played against them, you were suppose to feel intimidated. 
 

The lore for chaos warriors hasn’t really changed in this regard, but the rules are very underwhelming and are not reflective of the fluff. No longer do I feel that chaos warriors have the dominating presence they used to; they’re more akin to an armored wall that tickles its opponent. Other units like Mortek Guard, Saurus warriors/guard, Ardboyz, and some of the stormcast range have the ability to take hits and deal them back. 
 

Granted, these armies are very different, but they still incorporate “elite” units that have high saves and potential damage outputs. To bring warriors back into the spectrum of units that should be feared, I think their attacks should receive a point of rend , and maybe receive an additional attack or other buffs. 

No. Just no. GW always screwed Chaos Warriors up, they never matched their fluff, they were always underwhelming expensive units as far as I recall and that was WHFB 6th Edition. Infantry was not viable at all at that time, the rules made it cavalryhammer. In the eight Edition, Infantry became more of a Thing, but not Chaos Warriors. Hordes of Marauders were the Thing to go to, just like today. 

Chaos Warriors were more than twice as expensive compare to Marauders and had +1 armor, strength, Toughness and attack. However, they were slow and were always charges, models in contact that were killed, could not Hit back. So either, you equipped Chaos Warriors with Sword and Board, having only Strength 4, which is underwhelming or equip them with Halberds, which was quite ok, when the order of attacking Was deternined by Initiative. However, they were still far inferior to Elf Infantry. 

Regarding your point with Rend:Yes, that is the only Thing they are missing, that would make them pretty good. Then, they would be very resilient and would be able to Hit back, with the Nurgle Bataillon even with Mortal Wounds. 

[Enoby]

All I'm hoping is that our Painbringers and Two Souls are more impressive than Chaos Warriors. 

I'm in agreement that Chaos Warriors are underwhelming - they don't hit hard like their lore would suggest (to be honest, nothing in Slaves does, besides Marauders, Archaon, and some versions of Varanguard), and they're not 'that' good at holding an objective unless you pour a lot of points into them. 

I would prefer them to move up 10 points and have 2/3/3/-1/1 (to be more equivalent to ardboys), and increase the Chosen's points a bit so they do 2 damage. 

It's not necessarily that these units are 'bad', but rather they don't represent what their lore is. I'd rather they increased the points and made them stronger and more lore-friendly than kept dropping the points so they're reasonably costed but feel very weak.

[NorthernNurgling]

So these new mortal units look very exciting, and I have "mentioned" to my partner that I like them.

Then I "found" a Keeper of Secrets in a bag in our garage...

Will the daemons in general, Keeper specifically, be compatible in a mortals list do you think? I don't want to kill the magic of Xmas but I'd rather get a refund now instead of feigning joy at an illegal Keeper...

[Enoby]

3 minutes ago, NorthernNurgling said:

So these new mortal units look very exciting, and I have "mentioned" to my partner that I like them.

Then I "found" a Keeper of Secrets in a bag in our garage...

Will the daemons in general, Keeper specifically, be compatible in a mortals list do you think? I don't want to kill the magic of Xmas but I'd rather get a refund now instead of feigning joy at an illegal Keeper...

While we don't know for definite, the KoS will almost certainly be compatible with the new models. They're listed under Hedonites in Warcry, and the Lord of Pain is a Hedonite - the Keeper buffs any friendly Hedonite so you should be good to go

[Lucentia]

New rules might make it so that the Keeper CA only works for Slaanesh daemons, perhaps (all of the other greater daemon command abilities only apply to daemons), and traditionally locus abilities have been something for daemons only too, but the Keeper is still both a powerful melee unit and a decent wizard, as well as being a stunning model, so I'd imagine it will fit just fine within a more mortal focused force.

[Carnith]

In a slaanesh army you should be able to take your keeper just fine. It's CA will likely continue to only buffing itself, but it's a murder machine. Enjoy your greater Daemon.

[Jaskier]

Is anyone else starting to feel like we actually are getting a brand new battletome with the mortals release? A Hedonites of Slaanesh battletome refresh before Daughters/Legions of Nagash/Nurgle/etc would be odd, but the scale of this release (especially as there's certainly more models yet to be revealed) feels like it would be too big to just be confined to a Broken Realms book. Maybe we'll get both? 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, Jaskier said:

Is anyone else starting to feel like we actually are getting a brand new battletome with the mortals release? A Hedonites of Slaanesh battletome refresh before Daughters/Legions of Nagash/Nurgle/etc would be odd, but the scale of this release (especially as there's certainly more models yet to be revealed) feels like it would be too big to just be confined to a Broken Realms book. Maybe we'll get both? 

I'm in two minds about it; if Broken Realms wasn't a thing then I'd be firmly in the 'Battletome' camp. As Broken Realms is a thing and our current battletome isn't that old, I can see arguments for both.

If we got all of our stuff in a Broken Realms book, but shared it with others (e.g. if Slaanesh, Ironjawz, and Beasts of Chaos were in the book), then we would either not have enough room for rules to properly make use of the new models, or we would have enough room (e.g. a battletome sized number of rules) and it would feel unfair to the other included armies who'd have to buy 0.75 of a Slaanesh battletome for their own rules. 

In addition, assuming the rules allowed us to use mortals to our full potential, then people starting Slaanesh would have to buy the battletome and the Broken Realms, effectively giving us a £50 battletome. 

Finally, Broken Realms being less 'solid' than a battletome (as in, less safe from being erratad out like Psychic Awakening was), would leave our rules in a weird place.

On the other hand, a new battletome may cheese people off, giving off that 40k feeling where a book may last less than 2 years. I imagine there are quite a few people who've just bought the Slaanesh battletome in anticipation for the new release. In addition, there's a much higher chance that we lose our extra rules from White Dwarf and Wrath of the Everchosen in a new battletome, or that it risks nerfing/greatly changing people's new-ish daemon armies. 

[Klamm]

Fair point @Enoby. I don't think such a quick battletome turnaround is unprecedented (it happened with Blades of Khorne) but you'd think they'd have unveiled a battletome cover or even hinted one was coming at this point, they've revealed most of the models.

Then again, the allegiance rules have been FAQ-d to the point of it being in need of reprint.

[Enoby]

4 minutes ago, Klamm said:

Fair point @Enoby. I don't think such a quick battletome turnaround is unprecedented (it happened with Blades of Khorne) but you'd think they'd have unveiled a battletome cover or even hinted one was coming at this point, they've revealed most of the models.

Then again, the allegiance rules have been FAQ-d to the point of it being in need of reprint.

Yeah, personally I'd really want a new Battletome - we effectively have an FAQ at the moment. There are a lot of issues that can only be solved by an allegiance ability do-over, and I don't think Broken Realms would offer that.

That said, you're right that it's odd we've not heard anything of a battletome or broken realms... only thing I can think of is if the Newborn is on the cover and they don't want to reveal it. 

[NorthernNurgling]

Wasn't the first Broken Realms book just a set of warscroll updates/new allegiance rules etc? Given the amount of units they are releasing it would only make sense to put it in a battletome. If the mortals end up with different allegiance rules than the daemons then the current battletome might not be made totally invalid. They could have Hedonites and Sybarites as two battletomes that you can mix at your leisure. I mean, presumably people using StD units currently have to do the same with that battletome already?

[Carnith]

So rumors from someone who apparently has close ties to a store manager who goes to meetings on upcoming releases. Massive grains of salt here. 

We're a Jan release, with still a "lord of war" style in the vein of "The Silent King" for slaanesh and that it's a full new battletome. 

 

I'm like skeptical overall on this, but we have seen blurry photo of a large set piece. 

 

[Klamm]

If the options are new battletome, no battletome and mortal-only battletome, I feel like the latter is least likely. Not since bloodbound in 2015 have GW seperated mortals and daemons, and they didn't do it in the tzeentch book this year either.

I mentioned this somewhere so sorry if I'm repeating, but there's a lot of lore that has Slaanesh be an especially unified army. The recent slaanesh stories, such as Broken Realms lore or the Realm-Lords novel, have daemons and mortals together as the rule, not exception.

Also you've got Syll'eske, a character whose story is bringing together daemons and mortals in an alliance. Then you have the twinsouls, who seem to be a less wholesome version of that same idea. There seems to be more lore about slaanesh D+M partnerships than some of the other gods.

One other thing I haven't seen mentioned. The previous slaanesh allegiance was built around pretenders, seekers and invaders. These might remain mostly unchanged, but whatever slaanesh story we're about to get in broken realms might upset that. 

Will the newborn change the nature of seekers, who now have a true emmisary of their god? Will sigvald fit in as an arch pretender? Will those be their own thing, alongside syll'eske's host(6 allegiances would be thematic)? It seems like it's gonna be together or not at all.

[azdimy]

I shelved my khorne army when gw released their last battletome so close to the previous one with no new models except for a terrain piece and some endless prayers. For this release I feel differently as we re getting so many new units, a new battletome is I feel warranted

[Gorthor21]

After all these new mortal units I’m kinda feeling bad for nurgle only getting the fly riders, one hero and terrain piece with their battletome.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Gorthor21

[Klamm]

Yeah it was a weird pattern.

Khorne came first, got a great range of mortals. Then came Tzeentch, which got an interesting mortal & beastmen range. The Nurgle book was much more Daemon focused, the blight lords were nice but that left nurgle mortals with just two very elite choices. Then Slaanesh, in which sigvald and the mounted lord were dropped and no new mortals came, was actually a net loss for mortal fans. 

The trend was less and less attention paid to mortals. Khorne got a lot, Tzeentch some, nurgle few and slaanesh none.

The trend has been reversed! Hope that bodes well for nurgle and tzeentch players.

[Overread]

Khorne was the starter army baby with AoS along with Stormcast - so much like Nighthaunt at the start of 2.0, Khorne got a lions-share of attention back then. Just like Necorns just got a massive attention seeking boon with the new 40K edition. 

 

Other armies have seen smaller updates, though its good to see Slaanesh getting a meaty update and so soon as well. I did predict that there'd be a big mortals update for Slaanesh in the future, but I was not expecting it so soon after the demon update. I was expecting there to be many more years before they got it. One bonus of having larger fleshed out forces getting updates in quick succession is it leaves them in a large and diverse position where balances updates and the odd model can keep fans interested and leaving GW's production schedual free to add meatier updates to other armies that need them 

[Jaskier]

8 hours ago, carnith said:

So rumors from someone who apparently has close ties to a store manager who goes to meetings on upcoming releases. Massive grains of salt here. 

We're a Jan release, with still a "lord of war" style in the vein of "The Silent King" for slaanesh and that it's a full new battletome. 

 

I'm like skeptical overall on this, but we have seen blurry photo of a large set piece. 

 

I have a very strong feeling this is the case. Including heroes and the big model we've not yet got a clear picture of (if it is a new model) we're looking at 7-8 kits minimum. That screams new Hedonites battletome to me. 

[CeleFAZE]

9 hours ago, carnith said:

So rumors from someone who apparently has close ties to a store manager who goes to meetings on upcoming releases. Massive grains of salt here. 

We're a Jan release, with still a "lord of war" style in the vein of "The Silent King" for slaanesh and that it's a full new battletome. 

 

I'm like skeptical overall on this, but we have seen blurry photo of a large set piece. 

 

If this is the case, then I think that makes the palanquin the newborn. I think that brazier full of heads from the rumor engine is probably a part of that.

[Overread]

If we don't get a new Battletome then there's going to be issues. 

1) Depravity. As it stands they can load up all the fancy warriors and troops they like, without some fundamental changes to Depravity people will still go out and buy and use 4 or 5 keepers as their army. Or at least a leader focused army. Depravity needs changes otherwise troops are worthless compared to leaders

2) The number of models is significant enough that making big changes would likely impact the demonic side as well. Shifting stats and points around to create slots and fill them without having units crossing the same area of influence (at least too much)

Whilst its quite a young tome I think adding almost double the number of troops and a slew of new leaders and such is worthwhile an update. GW might do what they did for demons in 40K and release both a new Battletome and an "expansion" tome for those who own the current book. 

[Gorthor21]

Maybe the next broken realms book will function as the expansion and as they roll out the second wave they could drop the reworked battletome.   
they could simply add that you gain a depravity point for each unit that engaged in a combat and didn’t get whipped out each turn on top of the character wounds mechanic and raise the costs of the summoning pool accordingly.  This would motivate people to get larger units which would lead to more sets being sold.  
 

as an aside I never really considered getting a slaanesh army until this whole thing and the more I think about it the more I think I might jump in and get a few of these new sets.  I once owned ninety daemonettes back in 8th wfb and I’m not gonna lie I never really liked them.  I even converted a few as lamia with the lower halves of tyranid ravenors and had a good fifteen seekers but the models just never really stuck with me.  I mostly used blood letters and plaguebearers in those days so I never got motivated to give them a chance.  Now I might give slaanesh a second chance if these kits are somewhat affordable.

[Binabik15]

I haven't posted in forever, but the Zealot Miniatures Mino/Bullgor and the upcoming Slaanesh release made me remember my plan for a 1000 points Warherd.  With the upcoming mortals I now want Hedonites with a large helping of BoC stuff under that beastly new Sigvald. 

 

So yesterday I just had to

a) rush to the Zealot website, but they're on Xmas break soon - and after that who knows if importing from UK to the EU will be a total hassle and cost lots of tax and fee money. I still want them for that udderly depraved Warherd.

 

b) start working on the Bale Taurus I originally wanted to turn into a Nurgle Varanguard, but deemed to large and earmarked as a count-as Gorgon for the Warherd

 

I quite like the big boy so far, though he's starting to get freakishly heavy with all that FIMO and Miliput. His lower legs and hooves need more work and he has a WIP tail that I can attach after I'm happy with the volumes of his legs, but I never imagined it'd  turn out so well in half a weekend. To be honest I planned on using Thaumaturge legs, but I was too lazy to go looking for them. Now I'm happy I didn't. I might make a mould for the stuff I sculpted, actually, and do a second one this way to gift to someone as a statue, just need to get new silicone and a second Endless Spells set.

For this Slaanesh prize bull, though, any ideas on what to adorn him with, to keep him simple and focused on the muscles, but also fitting for a Depraved Drove/Warherd? I haven't bought any Slaanesh plastic kits yet, my non-converted Slaanesh stuff consists of Diaz metals and soon a Snake Lord (gifts, yay). I'll buy some of the new mortals once released and probably a Keeper and Hellstriders (I like their helmets and they're cheap-ish on ebay). Still, ideas? I can scratch build some stuff, have a lot of other Warcry and 40k and AoS Chaos stuff and can ebay/bits buy more specific bits.  An elaborate nose ring seems a must, then just a Slaanesh rune carved into a slab of muscle or more? Pain hooks in the skin and flayed skins stapled into him as tassles? Some casings or stuff added to his horns? The fire mane will  be painted as liquid gold, I think.

 

List building will have to wait until after the release of the mortals, but I fully intend to do a couple of herds of Zealot Minos and maybe a second monster. I have a conversion of the Thaumaturge with (horse) Dorghars head as a  Slaanesh"Bullgor" for a Warcry band. I'm thinking about doing more horse head beastmen/Bullgors, as the graceful equine look fits Slaanesh well. A Slaughterpriest with a Chaos knight horse head (especially the one with giant spike) and knives is a conversion idea I've toyed with for some time, maybe that make a good Beastlord stand-in? And more horse Bullgors based on Ogroids and the Orruk Warboss and the Rogue trader big boys? I'm not sure what role besides fodder and maybe killy monsters BoC have in a Hedonites army, but I don't really play, anyway, but like my collections to *potentially* work as legal lists at least. 

I'd love some input on the conversion - and of course on what to buy besides the new kits (and Minos), but that nobody really knows -  and I hope the picture attachement works, otherwise I'll edit in the abload.de link.

[Klamm]

Nice conversion! You'll get some good adornment spares from the keeper kit. I grabbed a pack of gems from greenstuff world to Slaaneshi-ify my various conversions. Depends what facet of slaanesh you want to focus on, I like the gleam but sounds like you want the mutilations.

The hellstrider kit might be a good addition. Not only can the shields be used for armour plating but I notice your bull is missing a tail and the tendrils of hellstrider whips might be perfect.

I've considered doing elk head slaanesh bullgors, horse heads would work nicely, like a Slaaneshi Sorry to Bother You. I was gonna use crypt horrors for the base because they're nicer sculpts and a bit lither but perhaps it's not your bag.

Also, if you do get a ghorgon, you can use the spares from the keeper of secrets to kitbash a more bestial greater Daemon. Good luck with your project!

Edited December 20, 2020 by Klamm

[Enoby]

Looks like there's a good chance we'll see our new models on Christmas, and get a battletome in February  

[Overread]

I just really hope we get some hints of a new Battletome and perhaps a reworking of somethings. I'd also sort of welcome a new demon monster, fiends are great but they need a friend!