AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[MothmanDraws]

Also if charge reactions are correct lurid haze can be pretty tanky +1 save charge reaction +1save ca can likely get bonus for being charged while in defensible terrain based on kragnos rules.  Also old style mystic shield. Myrmidesh re rolling those saves can likely be tanky

[pnkdth]

We're specifically mentioned + an image of Slaanesh in this new article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/25/as-the-new-edition-dawns-where-does-each-grand-alliance-stand/

"Morathi, in her (successful) quest to become a god, weakened the bonds holding Slaanesh at bay in Ulgu. A portion of the Dark Prince’s essence was released into the realms in the process. Besides empowering his mortal followers, this soul-stuff formed the twin-form daemon Dexcessa and Synessa."

[Popisdead]

What are people saying about Infernal Enraptresses?  On one of the AoS coach's episodes someone had mentioned value, particularly summoning them (along with DAemoenttes and Seekers being very good to summon,. and a Keeper).  I've been debating picking one up to paint.

On 5/24/2021 at 2:36 AM, MothmanDraws said:

epitome

5 seekers

3 fiends

My guess is these are meant to be "AoS 3 Crusade/Path to Glory" boxes.  ... and stuff not selling well. hahaha.  The BoC one is Warherd and unless there is an outrageous miracle, GW is surely not going to give Warherd fans like me a bone to gnaw on.  I do wonder if in Crusade you can use Battalions and that game-mode will become more popular.  It's a hit in 40k.

On 5/24/2021 at 10:28 AM, Enoby said:

Chaos Warriors: Good in min units of 5 for cheap battleline or screens as they can stand up to minor pressure and some MWs. However, in larger units I think they end up being too much of a fluffy pillow; 

Chaos Knights: Personally I think the knights aren't great.

Is fluffy pillow a slaanesh "bedroom move" 😉 har har.  good tip I have loads of old 1987 Slaanesh champions of chaos that are a joy to paint.  

Thanks for the note about Chaos Knights.  I have 10 I've been toying with painting up.

22 hours ago, Grimrock said:

The price for the twins is very interesting, much lower than I expected. I wonder if they realized they overshot the mark with the new greater daemons and are reeling it back a bit? Or maybe they're just hoping most people will buy two kits and this is the best price for that. Either way I'm much more interested in them now, hopefully we get their full scroll soon like kragnos. 

I'm wondering if they are significantly smaller than Keepers.  I'm actually,.. not a huge fan of the keeper (GASP i know,..) but I love the new twins and I'm thinking of them as a keeper.  Perhaps GW has sold so many Keepers they are banking on us going in on the twins AND in pairs.  GW never admits overpricing (look at how Eternal Guard, Black Guard and Maiden Guard had been escalated and priced)

[Grimrock]

11 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

I'm wondering if they are significantly smaller than Keepers.  I'm actually,.. not a huge fan of the keeper (GASP i know,..) but I love the new twins and I'm thinking of them as a keeper.  Perhaps GW has sold so many Keepers they are banking on us going in on the twins AND in pairs.  GW never admits overpricing (look at how Eternal Guard, Black Guard and Maiden Guard had been escalated and priced)

Yeah it's really hard to tell the size at this point. They look like they're on an oval base, but it could be the contorted oval, the chariot oval, or even a knight oval for all we know. I'm hoping they'll be the same size as the void dragon in 40k since they're the same price, but that might be too much to ask. 

Also I agree GW never admits overpricing or lower prices on a given box, but if their sales are bad enough they might retreat and make subsequent boxes more reasonable. Just compare chain rasps and skeleton hordes for an example. Both are monopose undead hordes but the skeletons are 30% cheaper even though they released 3 years later. Maybe they've noticed a huge drop in greater daemon sales after they hiked the prices up and need to compensate.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Grimrock

[Yoid]

3 hours ago, Grimrock said:

Yeah it's really hard to tell the size at this point. They look like they're on an oval base, but it could be the contorted oval, the chariot oval, or even a knight oval for all we know. I'm hoping they'll be the same size as the void dragon in 40k since they're the same price, but that might be too much to ask. 

Also I agree GW never admits overpricing or lower prices on a given box, but if their sales are bad enough they might retreat and make subsequent boxes more reasonable. Just compare chain rasps and skeleton hordes for an example. Both are monopose undead hordes but the skeletons are 30% cheaper even though they released 3 years later. Maybe they've noticed a huge drop in greater daemon sales after they hiked the prices up and need to compensate.

They are really big, as can be seen in their reveal video: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/04/19/quiz-which-of-these-new-slaaneshi-daemons-are-you/ The Daemonette head only reach to the tip of the feet, the top of the Daemonette banner barely reach the hip, plus Daemonettes are in front closer to the camera wich make them look sligthly bigger.

It is known that the main body of the twins would be somewhat smaller than the KoS because they are floating, but the model is gonna be around the same height, maybe even taller if you count the wings that go up high compared to the claws of the KoS that are resting down.

Edit: Estimated size scaled around the height of the bases done by some math-guy.

Second Edit: A Daemonette seems to reach to the tip of the feet in the twins, and to the knee in the KoS, wich is somewhat similar to this image comparison in size.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Yoid

[Enoby]

21 hours ago, MothmanDraws said:

Also if charge reactions are correct lurid haze can be pretty tanky +1 save charge reaction +1save ca can likely get bonus for being charged while in defensible terrain based on kragnos rules.  Also old style mystic shield. Myrmidesh re rolling those saves can likely be tanky

I've heard that they'll be capping modifiers, so unfortunately I don't think we can stack these However, if mystic shield returns to the old version, it'll be nice - probably a good reason to bring Glutos and I assume Synessa, especially with Painbringers. A 3+ rerolling save is pretty great, and our CA (with what I assume means more CP in 3e) means that we can get +1 to save on most of our units. 

I have my fingers crossed we'll see some rules today...

If there's a leak of points too, I'll try put them in a game on the weekend and see how they feel. 

Also, I wanted to give this list a try. There are no battalions in it in preparation for 3rd edition, and I've also not settled on normal Invaders vs Lurid Haze because I'm not sure how we'll get extra artifacts, and I don't know how valuable extra command points will be in third. I'll stick with normal invaders for now, just as the extra CP is really valuable at the moment. It's not the most competitive list, but the aim was to have no named characters and to be varied and full Hedonites.

Host: Invaders

Heroes:

Lord of Pain (general), Glory Hog

Keeper of Secrets

Shardspeaker (general), Rod of Misrule

Battleline

11× Blissbarb archers 

10× Twinsouls

5× Twinsouls

5× Painbringers 

Other:

5× Slickblade Seekers

5× Slickblade Seekers

Endless Spell:

Mesmerising Mirror 

Extra command point

1970/2000

The general idea is pretty simple; Slickblades and large block of Twinsouls do damage, boosted by the Keeper, with the Slickblades going in alongside the keeper to harass. Screening is going to be an issue, but in pure Hedonites it often is; it's initially the job of the Painbringes and Twinsouls (if this was Lurid Haze or AoS 3 then the +1 to save would matter a lot here), as well as the endless spell's base. Blissbarbs provide support from the back and hold back objectives while still doing something. 

If points went down significantly, I'd likely include more Painbringers or Chaos Warriors (price dependant) to screen. 

[LeonBox]

I finally got a unit of Blissbarb Archers (mostly) painted up and fielded them for the first time, and I'm a big fan. They're great at both focus- and split-firing, and something that I hadn't realised is that Acquiescence works with ranged attacks, making them even better with an Epitome/Herald variant. They're expensive, sure, but all our stuff is these days. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by LeonBox
Typo

[Enoby]

2 hours ago, LeonBox said:

I finally got a unit of Blissbarb Archers (mostly) painted up and fielded them for the first time, and I'm a big fan. They're great at both focus- and split-firing, and something that I hadn't realised is that Acquiescence works with ranged attacks, making them even better with an Epitome/Herald variant. They're expensive, sure, but all our stuff is these days. 

I agree, I think blissbarbs are good they're just pricey and fold like a wet leaf. That said, I think with a small points decrease they would be a fantastic supporting battleline as they pump out pretty decent damage at range.

[Jaskier]

My personal opinion is to never leave home without at least one unit of Blissbarbs in a competitive list - the sole exception being if you have consistent ranged output from another source. Generating a near guaranteed two Depravity Points each turn from afar on a Battleline chaff unit is too good to pass up. They look overpriced compared to their equivalents in other armies, but they're amazing for Slaanesh specifically. 

[Enoby]

I must be very bored, but I keep checking back on Warhammer Community to see if they've released an article on the twins.

[CeleFAZE]

4 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I must be very bored, but I keep checking back on Warhammer Community to see if they've released an article on the twins.

I've been doing the same thing. It would be nice to have something solid rather than vague platitudes about what they do thematically, as that frequently doesn't translate to the actual rules.

[Enoby]

2 minutes ago, CeleFAZE said:

I've been doing the same thing. It would be nice to have something solid rather than vague platitudes about what they do thematically, as that frequently doesn't translate to the actual rules.

The vagueness is what's frustrating -  saying Dexcessa has weapon skills beyond the reach of "most greater daemons" could mean they'd show Skarbrand up in close combat, or could mean they're slightly better than a generic KoS. It's difficult not to be nervous; while I like most of our warscrolls (sans points), I'd hate to see "The Slaanesh twins, brought to you by the person who wrote the Slaangor warscroll"

[pnkdth]

More Slaanesh lore!

"Cerith Anlethir is a Lumineth scholar of magic, yet he possesses no innate magical ability himself. Mocked by his peers for his lack of power, he is approached by Teclis for a special mission to unweave a potent living spell called the Winnowing, which is being controlled by a Shardspeaker of Slaanesh. This spell feeds off mages’ power, so Cerith’s mundane nature is a help rather than a hindrance. Can this scholar’s source of shame turn into an advantage to save the Realm of Light?"

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/26/confront-the-mortal-realms-most-powerful-beings-in-black-librarys-gods-and-monsters-week/

[azdimy]

Hoping we would have seen leaks of the twins warscrolls by now

[Popisdead]

2 hours ago, pnkdth said:

More Slaanesh lore!

 by Teclis for a special mission to unweave a potent living spell called the Winnowing, which is being controlled by a Shardspeaker of Slaanesh. This spell feeds off mages’ power, so Cerith’s mundane nature is a help rather than a hindrance. Can this scholar’s source of shame turn into an advantage to save the Realm of Light?"

 

 

I like the tie-in narrative for Slaanesh vs haughty aelves.  nice catch.  did you read the novel?  

[Feorag]

5 hours ago, Enoby said:

I'd hate to see "The Slaanesh twins, brought to you by the person who wrote the Slaangor warscroll"

Please don't joke..... I keep trying slaangors in game and just can't get them to do anything that most things don't do better in both BoC and HoS. I have about 6 games with them now so they're at the back of my painting queue.

[MothmanDraws]

14 hours ago, Enoby said:

I've heard that they'll be capping modifiers, so unfortunately I don't think we can stack these However, if mystic shield returns to the old version, it'll be nice - probably a good reason to bring Glutos and I assume Synessa, especially with Painbringers. A 3+ rerolling save is pretty great, and our CA (with what I assume means more CP in 3e) means that we can get +1 to save on most of our units. 

I have my fingers crossed we'll see some rules today...

 

Well if it follows 40k they have caps but only on to hits and to wound rolls, saves in that have no cap on modifiers.

If charge reactions work like 40k overwatch aswell you will only be able to pick one unit to do it, so might be limits to + save being used, but lurid haze coould get 2 units on better saves.

[CeleFAZE]

58 minutes ago, Feorag said:

Please don't joke..... I keep trying slaangors in game and just can't get them to do anything that most things don't do better in both BoC and HoS. I have about 6 games with them now so they're at the back of my painting queue.

It's a shame that their warscroll wasn't more in line with their lore. They should've had something like -2 rend, 2 damage on their claws with the gilded weapon being 3 damage (they're supposed to be wicked strong), a +1 bravery aura for mortal hedonites (they're lavished with attention and seen as a living embodiment of Slaanesh by mortals), and run and charge with either a 6 inch pile-in or a pile in and attack on death (to represent their reckless tendency to throw themselves into the carnage).

Instead we got a paper-thin unit that hits like less than its points in daemonettes, does mortals IF they survive the combat (why? Seriously why?), and get a bonus attack if they charge (this one is fine. Not good, not great, just.. fine).

[Feorag]

7 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

It's a shame that their warscroll wasn't more in line with their lore. They should've had something like -2 rend, 2 damage on their claws with the gilded weapon being 3 damage (they're supposed to be wicked strong), a +1 bravery aura for mortal hedonites (they're lavished with attention and seen as a living embodiment of Slaanesh by mortals), and run and charge with either a 6 inch pile-in or a pile in and attack on death (to represent their reckless tendency to throw themselves into the carnage).

Instead we got a paper-thin unit that hits like less than its points in daemonettes, does mortals IF they survive the combat (why? Seriously why?), and get a bonus attack if they charge (this one is fine. Not good, not great, just.. fine).

I mean if they just had double the attacks with the claws they'd have the same output as enlightened! They also need the brayherd keyword like the enlightened as them not being able to ambush sucks!!

[CeleFAZE]

1 minute ago, Feorag said:

I mean if they just had double the attacks with the claws they'd have the same output as enlightened! They also need the brayherd keyword like the enlightened as them not being able to ambush sucks!!

Double attacks would help, but they still are in terrible need of something more. They'd still be outclassed by fewer points of daemonettes.

[LeonBox]

9 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

It's a shame that their warscroll wasn't more in line with their lore. They should've had something like -2 rend, 2 damage on their claws with the gilded weapon being 3 damage (they're supposed to be wicked strong), a +1 bravery aura for mortal hedonites (they're lavished with attention and seen as a living embodiment of Slaanesh by mortals), and run and charge with either a 6 inch pile-in or a pile in and attack on death (to represent their reckless tendency to throw themselves into the carnage).

Instead we got a paper-thin unit that hits like less than its points in daemonettes, does mortals IF they survive the combat (why? Seriously why?), and get a bonus attack if they charge (this one is fine. Not good, not great, just.. fine).

They absolutely should have had run and charge at a bare minimum, and probably had their MW ability changed to dealing them on the charge on a 2+. They have a truly baffling warscroll. 

[Enoby]

I genuinely think that something went wrong with the Slaangor warscrolls; whether that was an internal debate (as in, they had incredible warscrolls that caused an argument and do were nerfed to a rubbish default state) or perhaps more likely the warscroll was written late, got no playtesting, and was rushed and uninspired.

I think there were a lot of internal issues with this book. While I do like most of the warscrolls (they could be more interesting, sure, but they are generally pretty normal), the points and Slaangors and lack of other changes (such as the hosts) makes be think this was written with a lot of pressure to not be as meta breaking as our last book, and also on a massive time constraint.

I think this is supported by the fact that the playtester on that interview said he could offer insight into the super high points of the Hellstriders (and maybe other mortals) but then laughed and said he'd get in trouble. He was acting as if he found the reason silly, which would suggest there was some issue along the way.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Enoby

[CeleFAZE]

24 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I genuinely think that something went wrong with the Slaangor warscrolls; whether that was an internal debate (as in, they had incredible warscrolls that caused an argument and do were nerfed to a rubbish default state) or perhaps more likely the warscroll was written late, got no playtesting, and was rushed and uninspired.

I think there were a lot of internal issues with this book. While I do like most of the warscrolls (they could be more interesting, sure, but they are generally pretty normal), the points and Slaangors and lack of other changes (such as the hosts) makes be think this was written with a lot of pressure to not be as meta breaking as our last book, and also on a massive time constraint.

I think this is supported by the fact that the playtester on that interview said he could offer insight into the super high points of the Hellstriders (and maybe other mortals) but then laughed and said he'd get in trouble. He was acting as if he found the reason silly, which would suggest there was some issue along the way.

Going to put my tinfoil hat on for a moment, bear with me:

One thing I've been hearing through the rumor grapevine is the possibility that points will have to be spent on a "summoning pool" again in 3rd edition. Considering that summoning has been rather balanced in its implementation across armies I'm not terribly convinced that this is the case, HOWEVER if it is then that could possibly be why he couldn't comment on why the points are as high as they are. It very well could be that our points were overcompensated for as they were always intended to be a placeholder until summoning was updated in this way and we could go back to a more reasonable level with the release of the new edition. It's still an odd choice, but at the very least it's an odd choice with some level of justification.

Edited May 27, 2021 by CeleFAZE

[Feorag]

Slaangors are just so gutting especially after seeing the statline from Slakefrey before the book released so much promise! 

I do also like pretty much all of the book the warscrolls are pretty good a couple of nerfs on the epitome and Kos sucked but overall pretty good.

I'd really like a reason to run shalaxi though as the lore is great just nowhere near as effective as it needs to be now. 

Hopefully kragnos holds some great things for us. 

 

[JackOfBlades]

8 minutes ago, CeleFAZE said:

Going to put my tinfoil hat on for a moment, bear with me:

One thing I've been hearing through the rumor grapevine is the possibility that points will have to be spent on a "summoning pool" again in 3rd edition. Considering that summoning has been rather balanced in its implementation across armies I'm not terribly convinced that this is the case, HOWEVER if it is then that could possibly be why he couldn't comment on why the points are as high as they are. It very well could be that our points were overcompensated for as they were always intended to be a placeholder until summoning was updated in this way and we could go back to a more reasonable level with the release of the new edition. It's still an odd choice, but at the very least it's an odd choice with some level of justification.

So if i understand your suggestion properly, you mean that they will errata down the point costs while simultaneously making you have to spend points on summoning, and thus the current point costs are a placeholder until that gets rolled out?
 

Edited May 27, 2021 by JackOfBlades