AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[shalvan]

1 hour ago, Verminlord said:

I think skaven are in a great spot and have a ton of viable strategies. I will post some lists later, but just wanted to say THE RATS ARE BACK BABY

Please post

[umpac]

On 6/18/2021 at 3:55 PM, shalvan said:

Yeah, I also thought of this, since I have a KO player who runs Zilfin with an Ironclad filled with 20 thunderers and an aether-khemist with a Warp Lightning Vortex in a Bottle. The thing is that it's pretty hard to actually kill the Ironclad in one turn with its 3+ save and rerolls from spent aethergold. Now the triumphs are different, so perhaps it will be doable. Still, remember that each subsequent warpfire thrower will roll fewer dice, so deleting the 2-wound thunderers might not be possible. I'm not positive 3 ratlings can reliably (xD) take down an Ironclad. We're talking 6d6*2, or 42 attacks. All three will optimally reroll hits, but to wound stays the same, which means 3/4 hits, 1/2 wounds, which means 16 wounding hits at -1. Ironclad will surely get+1 to saves to stay at 3+, so we get 5 attacks in for 10 damage total. We need lots of luck on the rolls to kill the ship.

A spark adds +1 dmg to all of them, getting them to 21 wounds on avarage vs 4+ save. 

Edit: I see you already accounted for +1 dmg in the end as well as the CA to get it to 2+ save, which is indeed 10.5 wounds on average. At least its enough to bracket it out of fly high.

Edited June 20, 2021 by umpac

[Bregor]

Attempt #2 at starting list - basically, this is just a sort of "use what I have" while evaluating what else I might need. Really missing the stormfiends in this list but *woof* at their new points:

Battalion #1 - Hunters of the Heartlands

40 Clanrats

40 Clanrats

10 Stormvermin

Battalion #2 - Grand Battery

Warlock Bombardier

Warp Lightning Cannon

Warp Lightning Cannon

Battalion #3 - Battle Regiment

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell

Warpfire Thrower

Warpfire Thrower

Everything Else

Verminlord Warpseer

Warp-Lightning Vortex

Chronomantic Cogs

 

Comes out to exactly 2000 points. Theory is:  Battalion #1 has all the screens in it, and in Hunters to avoid getting yelled at by Monsters - if there end up not being many reasons to avoid this, all of these can be thrown into Battalion #3 that reduces the army drops to 5 *shrug*. Battalion #2 gives an extra free Unleash Hell for when things come charging in. 

I'm not sure it has quite enough threats between the Verminlord, the two Cannons, mortal wounds from the spells (8 or so casts a turn if the Cogs come out), potentially the Bell, and hopefully some pop-out Warpfire. Will be interesting to try out, though!

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

5 hours ago, Bregor said:

in Hunters to avoid getting yelled at by Monsters

Direction one: Keep the Bell and Warpseer and you'll never worry about getting yelled at, you'll be battleshock immune effectively, and you can just pile all the battleline in with the Battle Regiment. Lets drop those drops. You've got plenty of power projection with dual cannons and the warpseer's 26'' range spell. As is, you may have plenty of damage, especially with the still outrageous Vortex, but this is not an aggressive list in my opinion, it just wants to sit back and let the enemy get closer. The cogs is certainly fun in this list, maybe not necessary for my next idea. 

5 hours ago, Bregor said:

I'm not sure it has quite enough threats

Direction two: If you intended to be aggressive moving up the board, you might consider trimming the bell and let the Verminlord be the lynch-pin up the center, add an aggressive threat, like a Hellpit, more stormvermin or heck another Verminlord. This will sound counter-intuitive but with less battleshock control, I would add mobility by swapping out a single warp-fire team with a driller team and add another battleline for more objective control. There is a way to still be proactive with the cannons too. You can put the cannon through a gnawhole, pop up a screening unit with the grinder, hide the remaining flamer in it and suddenly you have a foothold clear across the map. 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

On 6/18/2021 at 6:02 AM, Darkhan said:

Fun fact, the warpfire thrower teams can pop up within 6.1" of an ironclad right. Now that you can shoot at the ironclad, you can choose to shoot all the guys inside since they ALL count as being in range. Sweet you just toasted an entire unit of 5-15 (135-405pts worth) thunderers with a 75pts unit. Then destroy the 490 Ironclad with (195pts worth) 3 Ratling Gun

@Skreech Verminking@Darkhan If I'm not mistaken, warpfire throwers are still "wholly within" to count up the number of dice your roll. So wouldn't the ironclad have to be wholly within 8'' of a flamer for you to count all models inside? Dont get me wrong, it still sounds amazing but I'm pretty sure I've run into this problem with a generic garrison of enemies that were in terrain that was too big to be wholly within. My opponent at the time agreed that the "counts as the model" quirk becomes a big derp for shooting what's inside.

[Skreech Verminking]

21 minutes ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

@Skreech Verminking@Darkhan If I'm not mistaken, warpfire throwers are still "wholly within" to count up the number of dice your roll. So wouldn't the ironclad have to be wholly within 8'' of a flamer for you to count all models inside? Dont get me wrong, it still sounds amazing but I'm pretty sure I've run into this problem with a generic garrison of enemies that were in terrain that was too big to be wholly within. My opponent at the time agreed that the "counts as the model" quirk becomes a big derp for shooting what's inside.

No not really the flamer only needs to have the target within it’s range.

if that unit is in range,  you roll a dice for every unit within range.

The rules for garrison only say that the unit chosen gets an extra +1 to their saves and are -1 to the hit role nothing else, there are currently no rules telling us if those models aee spread or all sitting at one point.

Considering that a unit is eligible to shoot a unit with all of it’s weapon, even if it is in range from a small point of the garrison, I would have said that it is the same for the flamers, shooting into one

 

 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

Also hello again, community. I've been slinking in the shadows but I'm still doing the Great Horned One's work on the tabletop. 

I wanted to catch up the convo and get all excited about 3.0. All in all, I can't help but share my 1313 ft view of where we stand: we are in great shape. List building and points have done a good shake-up to all armies all around and detractors be darned. We can still swarm, Verminlord stonks are WAY WAY up and Nurgle can't steal our stuff properly. For those worried about our shooting fire-power, don't be, it'll be fineAlso, if ya'll ain't playing 1-drop Skaven in your first 3.0 game, you're missing out on all the fun. Its gonna feel good. Afterwards you can play however you want.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Skreech VerminkingSure sure. I re-read the scroll and it is in fact only "within". Right nasty that is. And yes, garrisoning as I understood it is a double-edged sword like that when it comes to targeting. The damage density of attacker and defender both go way up. I've put maxed out block of stormvermin in a building once and it was brutal.

[Cosmicsheep]

I've been doing a bit of list building too, mainly around my favoured Clans Moulder. With the giant rats now useless (i used to run a block of 40) i've not gone pure moulder.

2 Drop List    1970
Battle Regiment 1    
Thanquol    405
Master Moulder (Rabid Crown)   95
Master Moulder    95
Rat Ogres-4 (Toughened Sinews)    190
Rat Ogres-4 (Insanely Rabid)   190
Clanrats-20    130
Clanrats-20    130
Hellpit Abomination (Toughened Sinews)   240
Battle Regiment 2   
Master Moulder    95
Rat Ogres-4 (Accel. Metabolism)   190
Clanrats-20    130
Vermintide    80

The clanrats do a better job of objective capturing than MSU of 6 x Giant Rats. I'm tempted to drop the vermintide and change 1 units of 20 x clanrats to 20 x stormvermin

Edited June 21, 2021 by Cosmicsheep

[Unter]

1 hour ago, Cosmicsheep said:

I've been doing a bit of list building too, mainly around my favoured Clans Moulder. With the giant rats now useless (i used to run a block of 40) i've not gone pure moulder.

2 Drop List    1970
Battle Regiment 1    
Thanquol    405
Master Moulder (Rabid Crown)   95
Master Moulder    95
Rat Ogres-4 (Toughened Sinews)    190
Rat Ogres-4 (Insanely Rabid)   190
Clanrats-20    130
Clanrats-20    130
Hellpit Abomination (Toughened Sinews)   240
Battle Regiment 2   
Master Moulder    95
Rat Ogres-4 (Accel. Metabolism)   190
Clanrats-20    130
Vermintide    80

The clanrats do a better job of objective capturing than MSU of 6 x Giant Rats. I'm tempted to drop the vermintide and change 1 units of 20 x clanrats to 20 x stormvermin

do you get to pick the moulder enhancement for each moulder unit you have? thought it was just one? i might be wrong. It definitely says however that you cannot duplicate the same mutation in your army

[Cosmicsheep]

Just now, Unter said:

do you get to pick the moulder enhancement for each moulder unit you have? thought it was just one? i might be wrong. It definitely says however that you cannot duplicate the same mutation in your army

You get 1 free for the army, and then you can pick another instead of picking a Prized Posession. So with 3 Master Moulders i get 4 in total. Might as well take maximum advantage

[Unter]

1 minute ago, Cosmicsheep said:

You get 1 free for the army, and then you can pick another instead of picking a Prized Posession. So with 3 Master Moulders i get 4 in total. Might as well take maximum advantage

Ah cool, thanks for the clarification. So each Master Moulder grants one prized possession? Still can't duplicate the mutation however as in your list above.

[Cosmicsheep]

Just now, Unter said:

Ah cool, thanks for the clarification. So each Master Moulder grants one prized possession? Still can't duplicate the mutation however as in your list above.

I'm reading the Hell Pit toughened sinews and the Rat Ogor toughened sinews as different mutations.... but yeah, you could be right. It's the only one that shares the same name. I'd have to swap out the hell pits mutation for something else if that is the case.

[Unter]

2 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

I'm reading the Hell Pit toughened sinews and the Rat Ogor toughened sinews as different mutations.... but yeah, you could be right. It's the only one that shares the same name. I'd have to swap out the hell pits mutation for something else if that is the case.

hmm I've just gone back and re-read - i think your first interpretation is correct. It's just daft they are named the same.

[Cosmicsheep]

On 6/17/2021 at 10:27 PM, Verminlord said:

Dissapointed that minimums were barely touched and that youre not allowed to take understrength units even if you overpay. Wanted to run Ogors in 5s.

I had a thought on this... if you just run 6 but space them out 1" apart, after your set up you'd have to remove 1 of them because of coherency but the other 5 could just stay where they were, 1" apart  Hey presto, an understrength unit and no limits on how many you can take

[Drib]

@Cosmicsheep

1.3.3 Unit coherency: "Units must be set up and finish every move as single coherent group."

[Cosmicsheep]

2 minutes ago, Drib said:

@Cosmicsheep

1.3.3 Unit coherency: "Units must be set up and finish every move as single coherent group."

Yeah, but in the same paragraph it also says:

If a friendly unit is not coherent at the end of a turn or after you set it up,
you must remove models in the unit from play, one at a time, until it
is coherent.

Typical GW rules writing. Expect an FAQ on this soon

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Yeah, but in the same paragraph it also says:

If a friendly unit is not coherent at the end of a turn or after you set it up,
you must remove models in the unit from play, one at a time, until it
is coherent.

Typical GW rules writing. Expect an FAQ on this soon

Don’t worry mate, we still have the option to a doomwheel, if coherency needs to be broken by our own meathsields😜

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

With so many battalions we can run now, anyone going to join me in using the quirky artifacts. Brass Orb is looking really fun right about now. 

Speaking of fun, Masterclan Trait Cunning is looking spicy with every army getting reliable CPs every round. 

[Verminlord]

11 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:

I've been doing a bit of list building too, mainly around my favoured Clans Moulder. With the giant rats now useless (i used to run a block of 40) i've not gone pure moulder.

The clanrats do a better job of objective capturing than MSU of 6 x Giant Rats. I'm tempted to drop the vermintide and change 1 units of 20 x clanrats to 20 x stormvermin

I actually don't think giant rats are useless. They cannot hold anything reliably, but every time your opponent is forced to deal with them they have almost certainly overpaid for that combat to take out 40pts of models. If you take a lot of them, your opponent is forced to waste combats taking them out. 20clanrats can be taken out in a single combat just as quickly as 6 giant rats, but you can bring the rats in waves.

This is the same strat I used before, but now they are much less good at screening/controlling space, but the board is smaller, and you can take even more min units now that they are less than 10. You can also Arcane bolt one of them off a turn to bring them to 5s, making them screen better.

Take with a grey seer or warpseer to shut down flying too.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Verminlord

[Coyote]

I like 40pts for 6 Mv8” Giant Rats. I think they’re useful- and Cheap.  

[Cosmicsheep]

@Verminlord @Coyote OK, I get what you're saying about Giant Rats not being completely useless. Maybe i played them too aggressively in the past and made use of their extra range and +1 Hit/Wound. And just maybe i'm still feeling a bit sore about that

So using Giant Rats instead of Clanrats looks like this. Lots of roadblocks to protect the Rat Ogres and Hellpit, but not much to capture objectives with. I am thinking of getting another Hellpit, which would help with this.

Pure Moulder    1985
Thanquol    405
Master Moulder (Rabid Crown)   95
Master Moulder    95
Master Moulder    95
Master Moulder    95
Rat Ogres-4 (Toughened Sinews)    190
Rat Ogres-4 (Insanely Rabid)   190
Rat Ogres-4 (Accel. Metabolism)   190
Rat Ogres-4 (Prized Posession)   190
Hellpit Abomination (Toughened Sinews)   240
Giant Rats-6    40
Giant Rats-6    40
Giant Rats-6    40
Giant Rats-6    40
Giant Rats-6    40

Edited June 22, 2021 by Cosmicsheep

[tupavko]

2 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:

@Verminlord @Coyote OK, I get what you're saying about Giant Rats not being completely useless. Maybe i played them too aggressively in the past and made use of their extra range and +1 Hit/Wound. And just maybe i'm still feeling a bit sore about that

So using Giant Rats instead of Clanrats looks like this. Lots of roadblocks to protect the Rat Ogres and Hellpit, but not much to capture objectives with. I am thinking of getting another Hellpit, which would help with this.

Pure Moulder    1985
Thanquol    405
Master Moulder (Rabid Crown)   95
Master Moulder    95
Master Moulder    95
Master Moulder    95
Rat Ogres-4 (Toughened Sinews)    190
Rat Ogres-4 (Insanely Rabid)   190
Rat Ogres-4 (Accel. Metabolism)   190
Rat Ogres-4 (Prized Posession)   190
Hellpit Abomination (Toughened Sinews)   240
Giant Rats-6    40
Giant Rats-6    40
Giant Rats-6    40
Giant Rats-6    40
Giant Rats-6    40

Is there a reason why you are using Thanquol rather than the Warpseer Verminlord? 

I made a very similar list, but I have one less unit of ratogres, one less master Moulder, and whit those points I got myself 3 stormfiends. 

[Cosmicsheep]

4 minutes ago, tupavko said:

Is there a reason why you are using Thanquol rather than the Warpseer Verminlord? 

I made a very similar list, but I have one less unit of ratogres, one less master Moulder, and whit those points I got myself 3 stormfiends. 

Not really, i just think Thanquol fits the moulder theme. Also, I'm not going for a competition build here, just abit of fun. Also-also, the Warpseer's battleshock immunity is not really needed here. Each rat ogre unit is being baby-sat by a master moulder giving them double bravery.

If i do buy another hellpit i might drop Thanquol for something a bit cheaper, maybe Lord Skreech, to save some points.

[Verminlord]

Still working on my competitive build, but here are a couple of fun lists for your perusal:

Unleash Hell x Warp Lightning Cannon

Spoiler

Do you really like Warp Lightning Cannons? Do you want to shoot-kill in your opponents turn with no penalty to hit? Then this is the list for you.

Arch Warlock            175
     -General: Skilled Leader (5+ CP every hero phase)
     -Chain Warp Lightning
Shackles                     65
Lifeswarm                   60

Vanguard:
Bombardier               125
     -Warp Lightning Shield
     -Vial of the Fulminator (x2 move on WLC)
Nightrunners x10       85
Nightrunners x10       85

Hunters of the Heartlands:
Clanrats x20               130
Clanrats x20               130
Clanrats x20               130

Grand Battery:
Bombardier                  125
     -Warp Lightning Shield
WLC                              185
WLC                              185

Grand Battery:
Bombardier                  125
     -Warp Lightning Shield
WLC                              185
WLC                              185

                             Total 1975

Overall just pure glass Cannon self destructive mayhem.

The Grand battery battalion let's you use Unleash Hell for free once per game, and importantly, does not count as an issued command, meaning you can use Unleash Hell 3 times in your opponents charge phase potentially. Hunters of the Heartlands turns off Monstrous Rampage abilities so that they can hopefully live longer screening WLCs.

Nightrunners tag objectives t1 and allow your clanrat/WLC bubbles to move forward. If nightrunners live the first round, Vanguard let's them auto run 6 for free once per game without it counting for being issued meaning you can do it for both in the same turn to get them even deeper into enemy territory.

Lifeswarm is there to heal up your WLCs that will obviously always be overcharging.  Shackles prevents charges from deepstrike or a key objective. Bombardiers will be spamming overcharged rockets and warp lightning spells.

My next variation (and probably more competitive take) will take one grand Battery out for 2-3 Doomwheels in Alpha-Beast Pack for D6 pregame move on each one.

Puree' de Moulder

Spoiler

Warlord Battalion:
Warpseer/Skreech      335/330
     -General: Skilled Leader
     -Flaming Weapon
Master Moulder             95
     -Rabid Crown
Master Moulder             95
     -Arcane Tome (Becomes Wizard) 
      -Levitate (grants flying to a unit)
Giant Rats x6                 40

Hunters of the Heartlands:
Rat Ogors x6                  285
     -Toughened Sinews (6 wounds, 4+ save)
Rat Ogors x6                  285
     -Insanely Rabid (6 attacks, reroll charges)

Alpha Beast Pack:
Hell Pit Abomination       240
     -Never-never Die-die (reroll death effect)
Hell Pit Abomination       240

Giant Rats 8x6(msu)      320 
Shackles                          65

                         Total 2000/1995

Can't decide between warpseer and Skreech for the general. Warpseer is probably more competitive as you are getting an extremely tough to kill monster hero that gives cp on a 3+ and another on a 5+ with Skilled Leader and CP he uses is refunded on a 5+. Won't feel as bad using Master Moulders 5+ respawn on chaff because you'll be swimming in CP, though his unique command ability won't be super useful. He still has a 26" range D6 MW spell that turns off fly though. Skreech is interesting to me mostly for the fun factor of his unique spell. 9 minimum size giant rat units flooding the board plus multiple clanrat summons sounds fun. He's also a hero monster which has its benefits.

Warlord gives me an extra cp, and an extra artifact that lets me turn a MM into a wizard with Arcane Tome. He will probably be using mystic shield every turn on the toughened sinews ROs. Alternatively I could give the rabid ones flying if the opponent has a lot of screening. The toughened senews ROs also reach the threshold for counting as 2 models each, so that's 12 models for objective purposes on a 3+ with mystic shield, 6 wounds each.

I am still undecided on which Hell Pit mutation to take, but I do find that they die quickly once targeted and tend to do enough damage on the charge without buffs, so reroll respawn seems decent to me. Anyone know if warpstone spikes and other abilities that ignore "spell effects" ignore damage in addition to regular effects?

I think the rest is obvious if you're familiar with playing Moulder, but feel free to ask questions.

EDIT: aaaand one more

Rats in the Walls: An Eshin-ish List

Spoiler

Battle Regiment:
Verminlord Deceiver      345
     -General: Master of Magic (Reroll cast/dispell/unbind once per hero phase)
     -Flaming Weapon (+1 dmg chr to a weapon)
     -Shadow Magnet (Fights first once per game)
Night Runners x10           85
Gutter Runners x5           65
Gutter Runners x5           65
Clanrats x20                   130
Clanrats x20                   130

Battle Regiment:
Lord Skreech                  330
     -Levitate
Clanrats x20                   130
Warpgrinder                     75
Warpfire Projector           70
Warpfire Projector           70
Night Runners x10          85

Alpha Beast Pack: 
Doomwheel                    165
Doomwheel                    165

Shackles                          65
Burning Skull                   20
                                 Total 1995

The idea in this list is to maximize board pressence/objective pressure. Nightrunners and doomwheels both get D6 pregame moves, Gutter runners deepstrike, a unit of 20 clanrats deepstrike with warpgrinder and 2 warpfire throwers, Deceiver teleports himself, or Skreech, and Skreech summons clanrat speed bumps. Elite armies will really struggle to be in so many places at once.

Taking Master of Magic generic command trait on Deceiver to make sure he gets those key dreaded skitterleaps off. Not 100% about his artifact, but "fights first" in your opponent's turn might crank out just enough damage to finish off w/e target Deceiver goes for.

The list really leans on the two verminlords to dish out damage, but new heroic and monstrous actions should help with both output and survivability. It will have trouble against big high save flying smashers like Archaon, Morathi, and Mawcrusha. The double warpfire thrower will melt hordes. It is also 4 drops, which should out-drop most lists that aren't built around 1 or 2 dropping.

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Verminlord
Verminlords don't get spell lore, switched for generic spells.