tupavko

Tonight I'll try my new Skaven against my friends Ironjawz (mawkrusha and a lot of brutes). I'm bringing this list: - Army Faction: Skaven - Triumph: Indomitable LEADERS Thanquol (415)** - 2 x Warpfire Braziers - 2 x Warpfire Projectors - Spells: Flaming Weapon Warlock Engineer (105)** - Artefacts of Power: The Brass Orb - Spells: More-more-more Warp Power! Master Moulder (90)** - General - Command Traits: Moulder Supreme - Things-catcher - Artefacts of Power: Foulhide BATTLELINE Clanrats (100) - Clawleader - Clanrat Bell-ringer - Clanrat Standard Bearer - Rusty Blade Giant Rats (60) Rat Ogors (280)* - 2 x Warpfire Gun OTHER Rat Ogors (280)* - 2 x Warpfire Gun Stormfiends (640)* - 2 x Windlaunchers and Clubbing Blows - 2 x Ratling Cannons and Clubbing Blows - 2 x Shock Gauntlets and Warpstone-laced Armour ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS 1 x Lauchon the Soulseeker (30) CORE BATTALIONS *Bounty Hunters **Command Entourage - Magnificent TOTAL POINTS: 2000/2000 Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

Rat Ogors lost their mutations but Toughned Senews is now integrated into ther profile. So they are all 6W with 4+ save and they hit on 3+ (4+ when shooting). They are 140pts for 2, and one unit can be battleline for each Master Moulder in the army. As for the Master Moulder his Crack the whip is a flat +3 to M and charge rolls and adds 1 to wound. Also his comand ability to resummon a lost unit is on a 3+ now. So huge boosts to Clan Moulder. Basically your 90pts hero is capable of summoning back a full 420pts units (not bad at all) if you go all the Moulder way. There is a way also to make a Master Moulder the only small hero with 10W that heals 1W a turn with an item, and a trait to use his beasts as bodyguards on 3+. So the Master Moulder is quite survivable now and can hit ok (4A 4+/4+ -1 D2)

Well you haven't done your homework well 🤣. This is from the Realmgate Wars... It seems our favourite troggoth is outhere somewhere

For me it's not a matter of balance or rules performance. It's a matter of overall quality. I do not think they payed their employees better in the past, still 6th edition BoC book was (and still is) a treasure. Never been competitive, but man the fluff in that book, just on the first page with the little imperial children song "Tomas the Wanderer" is worth all of the last narrative GW has produced across all of its games. I can deal with "uncompetitive", but I do not want to deal with lazy and uninspired...

Honestly I do not (want) to believe the rumor that the only thing BoC are getting is a Jabber model. The issue with BoC is that they need a total rehaul of every single aspect of the army from the core concept of it. If they are ambushers from the dark then they should ambush better than evryone else, something that is not the case at the moment. Gw simply did not think out the army as a whole, so it kept dragging itslef out of WHFB with the models basically behaving the same way they did (badly) in the past: small guys in large numebers in the first spot, medium guys in large numbers in a second and bigger guys in a thrid spot... The army is just a mess from all points of view: they have no lore in AoS other than random cannonfodder, they charcaters have no agendas except a random mentioning of Morghur and Krakanrok. The lore talks about ambushing but the game mechanic is basically the same that it as in WHFB. They are a melee army that hits like a wet noodle, and their wrscrolls basically stay untouched since AoS 1.0, and when it actually happened to redesign them they went the wrong way: look at the Jabber boosting the worng army, or the Beastlord who got worse. It's an army that lacks good characters: all melee ones are garbage, have low damage output, and have low survivability, I mean the lizard-vampire has a 3+ save, while a Shaggoth has a 4+... Come on, some of those guys are older than Kroak... I'm a big BoC fan, but if this is the plotline the army has to follow, and GW can't sort it out just kill it. I'd prefer that and move the beastmen into the god armies as support troops (tzaangors, slaangors and so on) rather than keep living it the ethernal quagmire. Last thing, the army is old, most of the models are from 10-20 years old, giving them a new Jabber will not sort out the issues (unless the new Jabber is something like the one in Total War and then you make a spam army of those and look them wrack havoc upon the aenemy but I doubt it). Boc need to be taken by GW to the concept board and think it out if they are to endure, cause at the moment they just lack on all the aspects of the game that matter (not only in terms of how good the army is, but also how good it looks, how interseting to play it is, how cool are they mechanics, and even in terms of lore...) PS - Unofrtunatelly most of these things are shared with the Skaven at the moment which is weird considering Skaven are one of the GW's favorites.

Since Morathi is an elf, I will never accept she's fantastic. 😀 However, Morathi is more a part of the problem rather than a positive example. Morathi, is just Morathi. Yes, she got the snake body and godly powers, but in terms on innovation she's still the old b**** from The World That Was, with a somehow distrubing relation with her own son, the obsession for utlimate power, and she'swilling to do anything to achieve her goals. Morathi in terms of godly characters is actually one of the best, if not the best one, but not because of innovative thinking or new ideas, but actually because GW writers kept her frozen in the same exact immage as she was before, same thing thay did with Nagash except he drew the short straw so while she aged well, he became a comical relief (involontarily). Some other old heroes evolved, but I struggle to find a single one of them that actually was improved, and then we get to talk about the new ones: - Katakros: let's be honest, he's a wanna-be-Settra but with a more trademarkable looks then a living mummy of Ramses II. Yet while in Settra's case, his megalomany and pompousness were organic to his character, with Katakros it just doesn't work well, simply because the authors wrote bad stories. He is supposed to be a Napoleon-level general and he died by charging a single Ghorgon and by so leaving his army too far behind... That's a dumb way to die, espacialy if you are someone like Julius Cesar or Napoleon... - Kragnos: I love BoC... that's already enough to hate Kragnos, but I can accept that other people can have horns and hooves (as a professional designer there is something about design that should be explained here, but maybe another time but there is a lot to tell about "good design" and "likable design") but the narrative and his ties to the actual Destruction forces is so plain, such a strech... And buy making him badly they ruined also Gordrakk and Skragott, another two new characters, that already weren't too well presented yet they managed to ****** them even more. WHFB had an organic and functional lore, inspired by classic literature and historical facts, something that actually made WHFB so popoluar, and one of the reasons why CA invested so much money in producing Warhammer Total War. Is that the only possible lore that can achieve that? No obviously! AoS, is not produced by someone who has no experience, we are talking the same company, the same people, the same writers who made WHFB, Horus Heresy series or Mordheim. AoS could work and definitely should work, but it needs narrative love, instead of fan service ("the best of this..." "the greatest of that"... Sometimes being the worst is also a good thing), or plain text for the sake of filling empty pages. The worst thing is that GW is still capable of doing it, Cursed City (never happened) is a great example, yet such examples are more sporadic islands in a vaste ocean of commercial mediocrity. A perfect example of this is the White Scars paradox... Until a few years ago, it was the least known chapter of Space Marines. Black Library startedi the HH series and at the certain point they realized they hadd no lore for the WS... So a writer was charged to flesh out their lore. Chirs Wright wrote the first book that pictured WS as protagonists and for the fisrt time we read aboyt Jaghtai Khan, in "Scars"... If you go and look for reviews you'll find a massive amount of people falling in love with the Primarch only because, Wright is a really good author, who accepted the challange with passion and seriousness. This month Black Library published the last book concearning the WS by Wright, "Warhawk" and in it the author explains how he used the real life challanges such as no established lore at all, to craft the actual lore for them: "since nothing is really known about them, I decided I'll make them unknown, impredictable!" - and what a job he did. So I accept no excuses, GW knows how to do it, and I pretend they do it, because it's better not only for us, but for them too, cause the only reason they ara basically a monopoly is thanks to their well established and recognizble lore and universe that people loved and still love.

Oh boy you guys did already mention pretty much all of the unpopular opinions but here is my take: I never got into this AoS vs. WHFB war, nor I understand why is it necessary, however I trully believa that WHFB lore was/is better than AoS, not because of Gods, high-fantasy vs. low fantasy, nor I accept the time variable as a justification, but simply due to the narrative quality. I do find that nowdays AoS lore tend to be quite naive and childish compared to the narrative we had before. Morals and ethincs in the old lore were never trully settled in WHFB, but in most cases the reader could pick its own side. With AoS especially early AoS (GW corrected its course since then but not fully), GW abbandoned the mittel-european fairytale vibes and moved to a more cartoonish, marvel-ish sterotyped characters and storytelling. We abbandoned to gloomy european characterization of the Grimm Brothers for a more Hollywood style, Michael Bay's CGI-powered special effects. Let me give some examples: ARCHAON:I believe we can all agree that what makes a great epic story is the villain, and who can claim that title more than the Marshal of the Apocalypse, the Everchosen, the Three Eyed King on his uber-super-overgrown three haded dragon-steed... Well in that description, lays the problem. For those who remeber the old days, Diderich Kaster later to be known as Archaon, was not evil for the sake of evil, but due to Be'lakor's machinations and the fanaticism of the imperial citizens, the brave knight Kaster was shuned, hunted and persecuted until one day he gave up and decided to give the world what the world wanted: the ultimate villain, the monster. Not only he accepted a faith that was unloaded upon him, but he decided he will be the best, the monster the Old World has never seen before. So Archaon was born, a mortal, not a God, refusing any devine power, with such a strong will to refuse and keep under control the 4 gods of chaos, and a man of such moral strenght to let Sigmar at the very end of the World that was to pronounce the words: "If you only had faith, you would have been the true Heldenhammer!". You can read all this in Josh Raynolds saga The Lord of the End Times, a great story a trully dark tale, well written, with some great characters and it really gives you Archaon's perspective. My favorite part is when the narrator tells the story from Archaon's point of view, when he sees all of his friends, and companions fall to the lure of Chaos, and all the boons of the gods are bestoved upon him, yet of all of them, even once his body is sealed within the Armor of Morkar, inside Diedrich Kastner never changes, he remains true to himself before the fall. You can read about his wife Giselle, and his view about the Gods "We will see what will be with the Gods, once all of their shrines and those who worship them burn! I am no ones future! I am the Lord of the End Times!" Now that's a quote to remember. Compare that to the new Archaon, basically a Masters of the Universe type of villain, even his title turned so pompous it's rather comical than scary! Marshal of the Apocalypse... Other examples? the Von Carsteins or the Blood Knights were made canon in short stories and small paragraphs in the 6th edition army book, yet they became so iconic without any major tome such as the Realmgate Wars or simillar. The elders here might remember the short story in the 6th edition Vampire Counts book, about the Red Duke meeting a young question knight... 1 page, 1 simple page of pure joy. Or the Eshin short story in the Skaven book, or Moulder one etc... Some again might remember the song of Tomas the Wanderer from the Beasts of Chaos book... Nothing to much over the top, yet that small detail trully sold you the idea of the dark monster from the forest. Without reading a single page in the tome, you already knew everything about the rece. Throgg the troll king again, is another great example, a character created in a single 15 line paragraph, turned to be the ultimate villain in the Gotrek series. "Kinslayer" is another book I must recommend, Throgg is such a shakespearean tragical villain, so horrible and yet so wise and intelligent carrying the burdain of being the only thinking individual of his entire race, a race he despises and at the same time tries to save from the rest of the world. Why am I saying all this? Well as much as I might miss Throgg, old Archy, Settra, Malekith, the War of the Beards and so on, I would gladly keep them in my hearth and at the same time continue reading new totally different stories about new characters, or the old ones. Unfortunatelly as much as I accept the new setting, the old guys leaving us and new champions rising to power what I miss, is narrative quality. I miss commitement by the army book authors to present me with an immersive world with cool characters (Nagash being Skeletor) with convincing agendas (Archaon becoming dull )and plausable storyline (Morathi never answering for her wrong deeds) and all of it written with some passion and narrative quality (trademarking weapons, funky and over the top pompous language: basically every new character is the best of the best, yes Katakros I am looking at you, but then there is Kragnos who in terms of narrative reminds me of those memes where the guy is slamming the cylinder shape into a square hole). So again: AoS lore is worse to WHFB lore, not due to some inherent characteristic of the setting but mainly due to the narrative quality that has drastically dropped.

No. Unless specifically stated (at the beginning/at the end) all attacks are considered to be simultaneous so even if your opponent has 25 profiles, they are wasted.

Yes, it's an ability not a shooting attack. So you can use it but no Unleash hell

and totally appropriate as a faction leader...

Yes they could... Just give us Morghur, make him a mediocre fighter, absurdly resilient do damage, immune to magic (as he was before) and a massive becon of chaos with a Priest keyword... He is perfect for that role: a god like character (he can even stay as a mid-sized model 50-80mm base not more). Give him a special list of prayers, "aura of transmutation" and there he is. Creative Assembly and GW did a great job with him in Total War, I trully don't see why dont' they just copy that into AoS rules... I belive we will all be happy.

The maker of warscroll builder shared on Twitter a few days ago that he's already at work to update it for 3.0. So it's staying where it was.

I played 3 games till now, yet only one with BoC, the other two were Troggoth and Skaven. Although I like it a lot, I feel this edition is yet more about extremes. A unt must have a role: either to hold the line (because resistent or unkillable or slippery) or you break the line (hit damn hard). Some units can do both ok-ish. For BoC the issue is we are always in the weak middle, not punching hard enough, not survivable enough. This is the reason I and others found bestigors in a weird spot. In 3.0 if you can't hold the line you want chaff, so you want those bodies as cheap as possible, no matter how hard they hit or what add-ons they get if they cost a lot more they are not worth it... So Centigors and hounds suffer the sa.me problem as bestigors: they add speed compared to gors but gors are already fast enough, and they still lack punchiness so why bringing them to the table?

They were ok... I mean they are a 170pts monster, so they can punch waaaaaay above their weight, so as a first impression I can say I was satisfied, yet as all of our army they have major drawbacks: - slow compared to how our army plays (they could easely get run and charge and still wouldn't be overpowered) - they lose power super fast - they do not last long - rend -1 is a joke

Yeah yeah! You basically get 3 different heals: - heroic action (leadership test make it unreliable but it's still something) - Dragon Ogor new ability (2+) - spell on his warscroll So a potential nice total of 2d3+1 He does not need any CP to trigger any of his healings. As for reliable damage, mmmmh he can be more punchy than before, but I wouldn't call him a damage dealer 3A with -1 rend and D3 do not really tell melee monster. Even with Gnarlblade from Gawespawn so D5, it's stil 3A, and then you need Sundering Blades to push that rend to -2... You could even take the Flamming Sword spell and push that D to 6 But still on 3A, that's a huge commitement to get a mediocre fighter to be deadly... Ifound him to be good mainly because he can survive a battle, deal with chaff and smaller units, kill minor things, but I would never considering him as a hammer or a damage dealer. That is why I played 2 Chimeras and 2 Ghorgons. As sad as it might sound we have no damage dealing heroes, our best hero for that was a suicide Beastlord with Gnarlblade before the nerf in BR: Kragnos. I still hope one day we will get a true scale Shaggoth and a Doombull that feels as a Doombull (back in WHFB we were week but Doombulls were melee beasts, I miss that a lot). I've been playing a mono-troll army the past year for fun, and although not the most competitive still the rockguts can punch hard, really hard they are soooooooo much better the our Bullgors and even more survivable. Want my mad cows back.

So... I actually had a game after a year or so since I stopped using them and moved to playing Skaven and Throggots. I played a friend withs Slaanesh... My list was: WARLORD: 385 Shaggoth 185 (Amulet of Destiny; Lightning-fast Monstruosity; Sundering Blades ) Shaman 100 (Titanic Fury) Shaman 100 (Tendrils of Anthropy) REGIMENT: 720 Shaman 100 (Knowign Eye; Vicious Stranglethorns) 10 ungors 70 10 ungors 70 10 gors 75 Bestigor 135 Bestigor 135 Bestigor 135 Alpha beast Pack: 440 chimera 220 chimera 220 Alpha beast Pack: 340 Ghorgon 170 Ghorgon 170 He used: Godseekers -Herald on Big chariot (amulet of destiny and flaming sword spell) -Herald on small chariot -Syll Esske Chariot Chariot Hellstrider w/ Scourges Slickblade Seeker Blissbarb Seekerx2 Dread Pageant I will not annoy you with the full BR, but this was the first time in a long while that I actually felt I had some thing I could do, rather than count the dead and manage the surviving bodies in order to take objectives... Considerations: Slaanesh is really really week, maybe not weeker than BoC but I had the feeling we are in the same tier kind of. Shaggoths are actully good now. With heroic actions (healing mostly), spells (healing mostly )and monstuos actions they kind last long and for 185pts they are kind of cheap. Monsters can do a lot of stuff (units are smaller, they are hard to pin now and can get something with their monstruos actions) and Chimeras for 220 are not bad at all, maybe using 2 is too much commitment but I like agressive armies so I'll keep trying them. Bestigors are... situational at best. In my game they did as well as 10 ungors, but I feel that against a more infantry oriented army they could be useful, but 135pts for a chaff unit in ana army where you get those for 70/75 is kind of wasted. Hope these are useful...

Is there a reason why you are using Thanquol rather than the Warpseer Verminlord? I made a very similar list, but I have one less unit of ratogres, one less master Moulder, and whit those points I got myself 3 stormfiends.

I think I'll try a super aggressive one! WARLORD: 385 Shaggoth 185 (Amulet of Destiny; Lightning-fast Monstruosity) Shaman 100 Shaman 100 REGIMENT: Shaman 100 10 ungors 70 10 ungors 70 10 gors 75 10 Bestigor 135 10 Bestigor 135 10 Bestigor 135 Alpha beast Pack: 440 chimera 220 chimera 220 Alpha beast Pack: 340 Ghorgon 170 Ghorgon 170 Wildfire Taurus 110

You are definetely not the only one, since Kragnos (limited edition) is still available on the GW's site... I my hobby group (it's quite large, over 20 players), almost half of them are mainly destruction players between Ironjawz, Gloomspite, SoB and Beastclaw, and not one of them likes Kragnos. Actually most of them are burning with anger because of Godrakk being put aside and in his place they got a "horse" (that's how they call it). I thought I would be the saffest one since I still belive he fits perfectly into BoC, but oh man did those Orruk players got mad.

That would mean that GW actually does know how army works... 🤣🤣🤣 I've lost all hope in BoC army until the new book... I do feel we are behind the corner but still, I am always afraid when it comes to our rules update.

There is no cygor in the battalion. It's just +1 to hit in melee for WARHERDS if wholy within 12" of the named shaman. The battalion is: Shaman (he gets +2A with his staff) 2x bullgors 1x ghorgon That's it, nothing more and nothing less.

Whoever wrote these rules, had really little time/will/idea on what to do with BoC... The general faction rules are kind of OK, but still not a huge buff, the rest is pretty much wasted paper...

The Beastlord is basically the same: - got run and charge - does NOT reroll hits anymore, but gets exploding 6s vs. heroes Jabber-thing is still pretty much the same but "Aura of Madness now is: "roll 3d6 for an each enemy unit within 3'' of this model selected to fight. If the result is superior to the Bravery value of that unit, the unit gains +1A on its melee weapons but for each to hit roll of 1 it suffers 1 mortal wound after all of its attacks have been solved." the Battalion is cool but limited to the box content (shaman, named so no artifacts) 2 units of Bullgors and a Ghorgon. All WARHERD units get to add 1 to hit rolls ONLY if wholy within 12'' of the named Shaman

Ok guys so we have new KEYWORD abilities in Kragnos: Gors (unit not keyword)can repeat charge rolls if they were set in ambush WARHERDS get to roll on a charge and on a 4+ they deal d3 mortal wounds (add 2 if they are a HER0 or more than 3) THUNDERSCORN roll a dice at the end of a combat fase on a 4+ you can heal one wound (add 2 if it's a hero or there are more than 3 models); then roll for each enemey unit within 1'' on a 4+ they suffer 1 mortal wound (add 2 if hero or more than 3 models) These are in addition the the other rules we already have

I think we all do.... Imagine a perfect world were our God-like leader is an overgrown beast-spawn...