AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Skreech Verminking]

4 hours ago, Nikobot said:

weapons teams all have a bit of an issue with their design now as the game has evolved and so many ways exist to get them off the board at range.  with 3w and a 6+ save, they may either do something great or disappear without a whimper. for 60-70pts its a bit of a turn off, which is prob why they dont see too much play

your not wrong about the doomflayer, worst unit in the game! i think the doomflayer could stand to be in units of 1-3, 3d6mv, 4w, 4+ save and on the charge do d3mws on a 4+, fix their silly overcharge to just doubles and cost them at 40-50pts . in a unit of 3 they could lurk around the lines for well placed charges or go chase objectives to clear off in the backfield. prob do 10w before saves + 3mws... not much after that but you could see a use in that way

id like to see warpfires do mws on 5+ and 50pts each

ratlings prob fine at 60pts, maybe 50pts... or maybe make their overcharge only an extra d6 and make them 40pts

by making the teams cheaper, i think its easier to mentally accept you could be paying for something that isnt going to get a single shot off and they could see more play. right now they arent popular which is a shame as they are synonymous with Skaven's crazy theme!

Something else that could help the skaven weapon teams, would be a battailons, that, gives the skaven weapon team some kind of a protection, while they are within 3 of a clanrat or stormvermin unit.

this would actually be a great step forward, especially when considering how bad most of our battalions are 

[Nikobot]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Something else that could help the skaven weapon teams, would be a battailons, that, gives the skaven weapon team some kind of a protection, while they are within 3 of a clanrat or stormvermin unit.

this would actually be a great step forward, especially when considering how bad most of our battalions are 

it would help.. but then a battalion is the only way around the issue.. which doesnt really solve it?

i mean i think its a bit of a design issue, i think its proven, they just dont see play. the game has evolved so they are even LESS likely to see play now, virtually every army now has ways to plink them off pretty quick and even though they can certainly output some damage, theres no way to hide/protect them and the investment to get something done feels high vs the ease with which they can be removed

i would more easily decide to pay 50pts for a WFT doing MWs on a 5+, but when i think about paying 70pts, even though at 4+ its better, i think about how easily it can be killed and losing 70pts down the toilet. you get a few of those and 140pts can go quick

i thought it might be a better spot for them to be in

[Cosmicsheep]

I'd like to see the warpfire throwers have some kind of Verminous Valour ability, where they could be hidden in a unit of clanrats and not be so easily sniped. Or appear like the Deathmaster (although at a 9" away with an 8" range it would probably still get sniped)

[Skreech Verminking]

Since we already have arrived at the discussion of using weapon teams, I would have wanted to try out this list here:

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Chamon

Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor  
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- Artefact: Vial of the Fulminator  
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade

Units
10 x Night Runners (80)
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Doomwheel (160)
20 x Skryre Acolytes (240)
3 x Stormfiends (260)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)
Prismatic Palisade (30)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 185

Sadly My plans have been abandoned, since I kinda fell sick today, and from the looks of it I won’t be able to have my game tomorrow.

sad sad painted Skaven army

and it even would have been the first battle for my Acolytes😢

edit:

Nurgle be cursed

Edited June 26, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Maserdom]

DoT / GSG player here, sorry to intrude (the Horned Rat can get ******, that furry welfare God, hail Tzeentch is always in my mind, friend here).

A friend of mine is always trying to play his Skaven army against me but, even though I now constantly resort to my "for fun" mono-squig army, built and painted just for the laughs, he gets trounced time and time again. 

We usually play at 1250pts.

Leaving aside some obvious tactical mistakes, like falling for some bait etc etc, I don't understand how his army can blow up so badly: 40+40 clanrats, stormvermins, plague monks, some ultra-killy melee heroes hiding near the troops, catapults in the back firing on my squig cavalry...

What should he do with the clanrats? He keeps them near the heroes for the anti-battleshock CP ability, they are eventually buffed with the Clawlord's ability (he tends to pick the battallion that spreads the command ability on a full 13'' bubble), they keep a foot on the objectives while the rest of the daisy-chained blob goes to the front to envelop my troops: all of these tricks seem quite fine and at this point I don't know if his choice of models is just ****** or if there are extra layers of tactics that neither of us can grasp.

My Loonboss on Mangler Squigs can and will eat 20+ clanrats in one charge, bouncing away thanks to its trait before he is engaged and nuclearized. This already wastes 1 of his CP to hold he remaining rats in position.

The squig cavalry (10+10 boingrot bounders) will smash into one of the clanrats blobs, because he cleverly doesn't leave any hole towards his vulnerable backline artillery, but doing so deals an average of 10MW on impact, plus enough damage on the first squad's activation to drasticlaly reduce the clanrats'output.

If my wizards'Itchy Nuisance spell (= fight last) goes off, one of his blobs is dead.

 

Do you have any suggestions? He doesn't like the specific clans' traits and would rather play a mix of units (masterclan? generic skaventide? is that the name?): should he buy some more competitive models, scrapping his previous lists, or there are ways of making things work?

He also has a few ratling guns in his collection and a basket of jezzails.

[Skreech Verminking]

10 minutes ago, Maserdom said:

DoT / GSG player here, sorry to intrude (the Horned Rat can get ******, that furry welfare God, hail Tzeentch is always in my mind, friend here).

A friend of mine is always trying to play his Skaven army against me but, even though I now constantly resort to my "for fun" mono-squig army, built and painted just for the laughs, he gets trounced time and time again. 

We usually play at 1250pts.

Leaving aside some obvious tactical mistakes, like falling for some bait etc etc, I don't understand how his army can blow up so badly: 40+40 clanrats, stormvermins, plague monks, some ultra-killy melee heroes hiding near the troops, catapults in the back firing on my squig cavalry...

What should he do with the clanrats? He keeps them near the heroes for the anti-battleshock CP ability, they are eventually buffed with the Clawlord's ability (he tends to pick the battallion that spreads the command ability on a full 13'' bubble), they keep a foot on the objectives while the rest of the daisy-chained blob goes to the front to envelop my troops: all of these tricks seem quite fine and at this point I don't know if his choice of models is just ****** or if there are extra layers of tactics that neither of us can grasp.

My Loonboss on Mangler Squigs can and will eat 20+ clanrats in one charge, bouncing away thanks to its trait before he is engaged and nuclearized. This already wastes 1 of his CP to hold he remaining rats in position.

The squig cavalry (10+10 boingrot bounders) will smash into one of the clanrats blobs, because he cleverly doesn't leave any hole towards his vulnerable backline artillery, but doing so deals an average of 10MW on impact, plus enough damage on the first squad's activation to drasticlaly reduce the clanrats'output.

If my wizards'Itchy Nuisance spell (= fight last) goes off, one of his blobs is dead.

 

Do you have any suggestions? He doesn't like the specific clans' traits and would rather play a mix of units (masterclan? generic skaventide? is that the name?): should he buy some more competitive models, scrapping his previous lists, or there are ways of making things work?

He also has a few ratling guns in his collection and a basket of jezzails.

Well firstly, clanrats are your basic meatshield.

They are meant to die-die!

(“better clanrats fall into the trap then me-me!”)

secondly you’ll want to run your units of Stormvermins and plague monks in unit of 40, with which they’ll get exponentially better.

Knowing that a skaven player will often want to keep his unit of more elitish units like stormvermins, plague monks and etc. in the backline, protected from any charges.

Stormvermins will more then often just out straight kill-slay stuff (unless we’re talking about Ironbreakers with the special city allegiance in the first turn, or petrifics mortek guards)

plague monks are even better then them, since they cost less, and don’t be fooled, in the skaven roster a 4+ save is worse then a 6+ save, when the unit cost halve the points.

as for skaven in total, they work best played in a mix force, since they basically can get acces to all the subfaction allegiance rule, as long as they have the correct hero.

for example a force consisting of a clawlord 120clanrats a Warlock engineer, will be able to use the clans Skryre and Verminus special rules, since your Army has the correct key-worded heroes.

as for the mangler Squig, Firepower like for example buffed Rattling guns, or big units of jezzails as well as Warplightning cannons can easily deal with such a bug monster, although it always depends on your roles, which is kinda a skaven thing.

another trick would be to use a doomwheel buffed by the vial of the fulminator artefact.

with it it will be able to move something between 8-48inches (depending on the dice rolls of course) and i’ts shooting isn’t bad either, with overcharging it’s warpbolts, it can do a ton of damage especially when buffed by mmmwp and a warpstone spark for an extra damage per shooting attack

[Gwendar]

31 minutes ago, Maserdom said:

A friend of mine is always trying to play his Skaven army against me but, even though I now constantly resort to my "for fun" mono-squig army, built and painted just for the laughs, he gets trounced time and time again. 

We usually play at 1250pts.

Leaving aside some obvious tactical mistakes, like falling for some bait etc etc, I don't understand how his army can blow up so badly: 40+40 clanrats, stormvermins, plague monks, some ultra-killy melee heroes hiding near the troops, catapults in the back firing on my squig cavalry...

What should he do with the clanrats? He keeps them near the heroes for the anti-battleshock CP ability, they are eventually buffed with the Clawlord's ability (he tends to pick the battallion that spreads the command ability on a full 13'' bubble), they keep a foot on the objectives while the rest of the daisy-chained blob goes to the front to envelop my troops: all of these tricks seem quite fine and at this point I don't know if his choice of models is just ****** or if there are extra layers of tactics that neither of us can grasp.

My Loonboss on Mangler Squigs can and will eat 20+ clanrats in one charge, bouncing away thanks to its trait before he is engaged and nuclearized. This already wastes 1 of his CP to hold he remaining rats in position.

The squig cavalry (10+10 boingrot bounders) will smash into one of the clanrats blobs, because he cleverly doesn't leave any hole towards his vulnerable backline artillery, but doing so deals an average of 10MW on impact, plus enough damage on the first squad's activation to drasticlaly reduce the clanrats'output.

If my wizards'Itchy Nuisance spell (= fight last) goes off, one of his blobs is dead.

 

Do you have any suggestions? He doesn't like the specific clans' traits and would rather play a mix of units (masterclan? generic skaventide? is that the name?): should he buy some more competitive models, scrapping his previous lists, or there are ways of making things work?

He also has a few ratling guns in his collection and a basket of jezzails.

Man... I'm familiar with this. I have a few people in my local meta who are stuck between wanting to play competitively but also only seeming to want to play fluff lists to accomplish that and it never works for them. I always feel bad playing against them even when I go light on my lists (and intentionally play poorly sometimes) and walk them through tactics advice and they still lose. A couple things to unpack here, all in my personal opinion:

1. 1250 just really isn't what the game is balanced around; I'm not sure what he commonly runs but if he isn't running Monks or Stormvermin in 40's then he's doing it wrong (and running 40 Stormvermin at 1250 with how overcosted they are is definitely hurting). Skaven are not resilient in the slightest; we do explode quite easily and there's no real getting around that.

2. You can make Clanrats do some damage but.. really if he wants a melee hammer\bully unit the most common choices are 40 Monks or 40 Stormvermin (but again, overcosted). For most of us, Clanrats are strictly screens and objective grabbers.. unless you're a ****** like @Skreech Verminking and run 200+ of them. When it comes to BS, honestly our battalions are not magnificent. I would rather save points and invest in a Warpseer or for the cheap option; a Bell of Doom even though it won't provide T1 protection unless he goes first. Screaming Bell isn't terrible either, just a bit random in it's utility.



So.. really all I can see from what you've posted is he's trying to make Clanrats his damage dealers and that simply isn't their job. Everything is "Skaventide" and you don't pick 1 particular clan. Basically, if he has a Skryre hero it can take the Skryre spell lore, Verminus hero's get their own things.. etc, etc. So in that regard, he shouldn't be looking at it from a "Clan specific" trait as whatever units he has get those traits anyway; you don't have to be pure Skryre to get all the Skryre stuff.

I guess you really need to ask if he wants to play competitively or just more for fun using fluff lists or what he just enjoys using? If he intends to keep running 80+ Clanrats at 1250 and expecting them to do the damage then, yeah, things probably won't get better. Things to look at in terms of firepower\competitiveness are:

40 Monks\Stormvermin
6 Stormfiends (2 Ratling Cannons, 2 Windlaunchers, 2 Doomflayers\Shock Gauntlets)
20-30 Skryre Acolytes
2-3 Warp Lightning Cannons or 9 Jezzails. Even 2-3 Doomwheels work well in this regard (these are the hero\behemoth clearing options)
3-5 Ratling Gun Teams can be okay, but weapon teams are easily taken off the board before they can do anything and are generally paired with a Soulscream Bridge

In conjunction with the above, if you run Fiends\Acolytes then you want 1-2 Engineers\Bombardiers\Arch-Warlocks for More-More-More-Warp Power (or Deranged Inventor command trait as backup to that spell not going off) as without it they will do far less damage. Running Monks? Consider a Grey Seer on foot\Screaming Bell or Thanquol for Death Frenzy (Thanquol being a horde deleting threat in his own right and is seeing a lot more play nowadays). Stormvermin? Probably want\need a Warbringer and\or a Clawlord to buff  them.

So yeah.. we have options but they're mostly limited to Skryre\select other units if you want damage. Clanrats just won't cut it.. but I also am not sure how he plays; a list can only do so much.. a lot of the time it comes down to the player. 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Gwendar

[michu]

23 minutes ago, Maserdom said:

catapults

First mistake. Plagueclaws don't have enough firepower.

25 minutes ago, Maserdom said:

He doesn't like the specific clans' traits

Is he not using them? Because even with Skaventide all the clan-specific traits still apply. It's not like a mixed army  prevents him from using warpstone sparks and great plagues. It only makes Clanrats his only battleline available.

Even in 1250 lists he should put a Screaming Bell in. It gives battleshock immunity and saves you a CP. With Masterclan ability he can even gain more CP.

And yes, he should try ratling guns and jezzails. Or at least 2 warp-lightning cannons (he can use his plagueclaws as wlc if opponents are ok with that).

[michu]

12 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I guess you really need to ask if he wants to play competitively or just more for fun using fluff lists or what he just enjoys using? If he intends to keep running 80+ Clanrats at 1250 and expecting them to do the damage then, yeah, things probably won't get better. Things to look at in terms of firepower\competitiveness are:

 Now I have a question. How many Clanrats in 1250 pts list. 3x20? 2x40? 1x40, 1x20?

[Gwendar]

12 minutes ago, michu said:

 Now I have a question. How many Clanrats in 1250 pts list. 3x20? 2x40? 1x40, 1x20?

Hmm.. guess it depends what you're going for? I considered playing in a TTS tournament today at 1250 but decided against it (wasn't feeling getting up at 4am). I made a quick list which had 60 Clanrats, 6 Fiends + Engineer and a Warpgnaw... then just bought a CP for 50 but could also bring BoD.

At 1250 though, I think you maybe want to at least try for 60 via 1x40 and 1x20. Not to say 80 is a bad idea, but you really gotta think about what threats you're able to chuck in there with them, which is why even running 40 to make room for more bully units isn't a horrible idea.

Of course, no amount of Clanrats would do well against the 9 Salamander + Kroak list that is currently winning in said 1250 tournament so.. 😉

Edited June 27, 2020 by Gwendar

[michu]

15 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Hmm.. guess it depends what you're going for? I considered playing in a TTS tournament today at 1250 but decided against it (wasn't feeling getting up at 4am). I made a quick list which had 60 Clanrats, 6 Fiends + Engineer and a Warpgnaw... then just bought a CP for 50 but could also bring BoD.

My current list looks like that

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
Plague Priest (80)

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
- 2x Standard Bearers
- 2x Standard Bell Ringers
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
- 1x Standard Bearers
- 1x Standard Bell Ringers

Units
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
- 4x Standard Bearers
- 4x Plague Harbingers

Artillery
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1250 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 131
 

[Maserdom]

22 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well firstly, clanrats are your basic meatshield.

 

22 hours ago, Gwendar said:

So.. really all I can see from what you've posted is he's trying to make Clanrats his damage dealers and that simply isn't their job.

 

21 hours ago, michu said:

First mistake. Plagueclaws don't have enough firepower.

Is he not using them? Because even with Skaventide all the clan-specific traits still apply. It's not like a mixed army  prevents him from using warpstone sparks and great plagues. It only makes Clanrats his only battleline available.

 

Thanks for the inputs, guys, it's been already relayed to my friend and I hope that he'll put them to good use! Making him buy more miniatures will be a chore, but I trust that he'll open his wallet as soon as he realizes that his current lists and available models don't work anymore (he has a huge WHFB skaven army, but lacks most recent releases and their power).

One last question. I love the Doomwheel and, hadn't I already drained my credit card with the squigs and Disciples of Tzeentch, I would have definitely played them: are they as good as it seems from the battletome, or they're just good? What they offer seems really good, and fielding a trio of them should be, imho, almost automatic.

[Skreech Verminking]

23 minutes ago, Maserdom said:

lacks most recent releases and their power

Recent releases?

I wish that was true, but literally every single model with the exception of the clawlord from the underworld warband and the bombardier, there haven’t well been any new releases for the past 6-10years

unless we are talking about stormfiends I forgot they existed for some reason.

they were released around 5years ago, if I remember it correctly 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Maserdom]

4 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

there haven’t well been any new releases for the past 6-10year

 

Oh. In that case, my friend is just cheap.

He's probably stuck into his old WHFB mindset and doesn't understand why his previous army doesn't work. At least this explains why he's failing so hard during the matches: he just doesn't feel like buying the right models or learning how AoS really works...

And here I was, thinking that he had missed out on so many newer models released after the death of WHFB.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Maserdom
Press SUBMIT too soon

[Skreech Verminking]

4 minutes ago, Maserdom said:

 

Oh. In that case, my friend is just cheap.

He's probably stuck into his old WHFB mindset and doesn't understand why his previous army doesn't work. At least this explains why he's failing so hard during the matches: he just doesn't feel like buying the right models or learning how AoS really works...

And here I was, thinking that he had missed out on so many newer models released after the death of WHFB.

Say is there any chance you could send me his list.

I’m quit interested in it.

I-I might be able to get a better informative  understanding of his (maybe) cunning strategic thinking.

and can give him/ you some information or my own thoughts on it.

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Maserdom said:

One last question. I love the Doomwheel and, hadn't I already drained my credit card with the squigs and Disciples of Tzeentch, I would have definitely played them: are they as good as it seems from the battletome, or they're just good? What they offer seems really good, and fielding a trio of them should be, imho, almost automatic.

I've been using 2 to reasonable effect lately.. although sometimes I wish I just had 2 Warp-Lightning Cannons or 9 Jezzails for hero\behemoth killing as that is what I feel they're best at doing next to removing units from lightly guarded objectives. The fact they can't run over units unless they have 3 or less wounds is a shame, but even with rolling average on shooting they can kill off support heroes most of the time. If not, just charge them and do d3 MW's which doesn't have the wounds requirement.

I don't think they're incredibly good by any means, so I guess just "good" is sufficient enough of a description. Obviously there is a risk factor with them rolling 2d6 yet it's something you should do in almost every scenario.

[Maserdom]

4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Say is there any chance you could send me his list.

 

Sure. I'll try to do my best to remember the last composition he tried (I don't play skaven models, and I have a tendency to call most enemy miniatures "that fat guy", "shorty over there", "rats", "tank")

1x Clawlord - WARLORD, with a relic blade that gave -3 rend or whatever it was

1x  Warlock Engineer (unbind + neat magic trick)

40x Clanrats

40x Clanrats

10x Plague Monks (for the gnawholes)

10x Stormvermin (slightly tougher objective holders on the flank without my Moon's support)

1x Plagueclaw (he wanted to cripple my squig cavalry and herds before they could speed through the field and charge)

1x Claw-horde battalion

 

 

[Gwendar]

3 minutes ago, Maserdom said:

Sure. I'll try to do my best to remember the last composition he tried (I don't play skaven models, and I have a tendency to call most enemy miniatures "that fat guy", "shorty over there", "rats", "tank")

1x Clawlord - WARLORD, with a relic blade that gave -3 rend or whatever it was

1x  Warlock Engineer (unbind + neat magic trick)

40x Clanrats

40x Clanrats

10x Plague Monks (for the gnawholes)

10x Stormvermin (slightly tougher objective holders on the flank without my Moon's support)

1x Plagueclaw (he wanted to cripple my squig cavalry and herds before they could speed through the field and charge)

1x Claw-horde battalion

Ouch, there's absolutely no synergy here aside from the Clawlord giving Clanrats\Stormvermin +1 attack. 10 Stormvermin and 10 Monks are, to be blunt, a waste of points in my opinion. If they were meant to screen, then there are cheaper options. Skaventide want to be in units of 40 for the +1 to hit and wound benefits (to a lesser extent for the +2 bravery per 10 models but.. generally you're better off using BS mitigation).

I think @michu already established that Plagueclaws are, unfortunately hot garbage and Cannons are the better way to go.. and I've said what I needed to in my previous post. No real point in the Engineer as it has nothing to buff. But I'll let @Skreech Verminking answer the question too.. I just couldn't resist commenting 😅

[Maserdom]

1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

Ouch, there's absolutely no synergy here.

Yep, I know. This was his last "try" at making a list and I steamrolled it with 20 base squigs, 20 Boingrot Bounderz and a Loonboss on Mangler Squig. We're talking of bouncing red testicles with a tendency to roll  3'' movement and have a seizure when they die, killing my things around them. I won by turn 2.

 

He'll now go back to his well tested 9x Jezzail and I'm trying to hammer into his head that he absolutely needs to fit his Screaming Bell into the list in order to avoid wasting a CP/turn for battleshock tests on the Clanrats. Unfortunately (for me, since he's the only player available nearby during the Chang flu times), he's never been a great player to begin with: the process will take a long time.

My thanks, though, for every answer, since they are dutifully described to him for list building purposes! I await the time when I'll be forced to shelve my squiggies in favor of the DoT in order to fight his next fine-tuned list XD

[Gwendar]

3 minutes ago, Maserdom said:

He'll now go back to his well tested 9x Jezzail and I'm trying to hammer into his head that he absolutely needs to fit his Screaming Bell into the list in order to avoid wasting a CP/turn for battleshock tests on the Clanrats. Unfortunately (for me, since he's the only player available nearby during the Chang flu times), he's never been a great player to begin with: the process will take a long time.

My thanks, though, for every answer, since they are dutifully described to him for list building purposes! I await the time when I'll be forced to shelve my squiggies in favor of the DoT in order to fight his next fine-tuned list XD

Jezzails are a nice inclusion, although 9 of them without an Engineer to give them +1 damage will only do around 7-8 damage on average (they don't need MMMWP as their inherent RR's to hit are just fine). I think at 1250 there are better options, such as 6 Stormfiends. Hell, that and even just 1\2 Cannons or 40 Monks wouldn't be bad.

Screaming Bells aren't a necessity but they aren't terrible.. just "good" nowadays. If BS immunity is all you're after, I generally find the Bell of Doom is better as it's units within 13" and not wholly within. Of course it doesn't help you T1, but that's easily avoided by pre-measuring to ensure nothing can hit him T1 and hope nothing can T2 either if his opponent is playing for the double turn.. which I'm sure you know 😅. In todays meta of hypercharged spellcasting and unbinds, it's a lot harder to pull off without an Engineer\Bombardier\Arch Warlocks casting RR's or Thanquol's +2.

I've taught a lot of people over the past 3 years but there's still 1-2 guys around here that simply can't play at higher levels no matter how hard they try, and that's just fine, but just don't let him get burnt out from losing too much as some people have around my local scene. Feel free to return or DM if he needs anymore advice.

[Coyote]

So, new Generals Handbook on the horizon; last year we were surprised at the points changes.  

I’m not sure what to expect.

Any realistic thoughts?  It’s likely some units are going up in cost.

[Gwendar]

23 minutes ago, Coyote said:

So, new Generals Handbook on the horizon; last year we were surprised at the points changes.  

I’m not sure what to expect.

Any realistic thoughts?  It’s likely some units are going up in cost.

I actually posted in the FB group a few hours ago asking the same thing.

Overall, I'm "cautiously pessimistic"; hard to judge when they've been so heavy handed with us recently. Many have asked for Clanrats to go to 60 at max to take better advantage of our abilities but many also feel our Clanrats need a points increase.

I know you asked for realistic thoughts, but my top picks (and by picks I mean wants) are:

1.  Stormvermin down to 320-360 for 40. Clawlord perhaps down to 80 as well, but 100 is still okay if SV drop.
    
2. Thanquol reduction by 20-40 points. He deletes hordes, but getting there can be hard and he doesn't bring much else aside from the + to cast, which Tzeentch, LRL, Seraphon, etc will probably unbind anyway... it would be nice if he also had + to dispell\unbind as well.
    
3. Bombardier back to 100, Engineer to 80 or stay at 100. Bombardier can absolutely shred something if you're lucky.. but when MMMWP is on the line then most won't take the risk unless it's a tide-turner; not something I feel is worth an extra 20 points.
    
4. Monks maybe go to 260 but really I think they're fine where they are overall. There's still a lot of people with bad tastes in their mouths over Monks so I expect them to stay or go up out of spite. (won't be too upset if they increase so long as SV get the right decrease above).
    
5. Gutter\Night Runners down 10-20 points. I really want to include them in all lists, but it's hard to make them fit into in numbers that mean anything. NR's are really only there for the pre-game move so 1 or 2x10 is perfect, but GR's have a lot more capability between 1x15-20. They won't replace Monks or SV in terms of damage, but it's nice utility and a backline threat like Shadow Warriors. (except... you know, they have to come out T1?)
    
6. RAT OGRES. Really wanna see them drop by 30-50 points honestly. They have the potential to be a decent hammer (not great, just decent) but they're way over costed currently.

Some more realistic than others maybe.. I dunno. Probably missing some things.. but that's an "off the top" summary. Doomflayers could drop too obviously, even if they were 10 points I don't know that I would bring them 😅

I expect raises too, but couldn't really say what anymore considering tournament placings should tell GW exactly what they need in terms of our effectiveness.

[TheWilddog]

2 hours ago, Coyote said:

So, new Generals Handbook on the horizon; last year we were surprised at the points changes.  

I’m not sure what to expect.

Any realistic thoughts?  It’s likely some units are going up in cost.

@Gwendar's point reductions look good, especially the Rat Ogres. I would love to see them come down. They are such a cool and fluffy unit but they have been sitting on my shelf for all of AOS. 

I think the Doomwheel could come down 20, it has been gradually creeping toward playability.  

The Hellpit Abomination should be lower, monsters are just so underused right now. I am not sure it would be run at 200.

[Skreech Verminking]

8 hours ago, Maserdom said:

 

Sure. I'll try to do my best to remember the last composition he tried (I don't play skaven models, and I have a tendency to call most enemy miniatures "that fat guy", "shorty over there", "rats", "tank")

1x Clawlord - WARLORD, with a relic blade that gave -3 rend or whatever it was

1x  Warlock Engineer (unbind + neat magic trick)

40x Clanrats

40x Clanrats

10x Plague Monks (for the gnawholes)

10x Stormvermin (slightly tougher objective holders on the flank without my Moon's support)

1x Plagueclaw (he wanted to cripple my squig cavalry and herds before they could speed through the field and charge)

1x Claw-horde battalion

 

 

I would actually throw out the plague monks, the battalion.

exchange the Warlock engineer them for a Grey seer on screaming bell with the deathfrenzy spell or anything else he wants to take with him, and upgrade the unit of stormvermins to 40.

This leave you with 60points left, with which he can buy himself an extra command point, or take either a rattling gun or a doom flayer for some maybe lucky roles (but mostly to have something looking in his army) he could also take a unit of 10 giant rats.

with that said we now have an army that is build literally like the fluff armies back in 8th edition fantasy, unless he was a tournament player who played with slaves instead of clanrats.

 

 

3 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I actually posted in the FB group a few hours ago asking the same thing.

Overall, I'm "cautiously pessimistic"; hard to judge when they've been so heavy handed with us recently. Many have asked for Clanrats to go to 60 at max to take better advantage of our abilities but many also feel our Clanrats need a points increase.

I know you asked for realistic thoughts, but my top picks (and by picks I mean wants) are:

1.  Stormvermin down to 320-360 for 40. Clawlord perhaps down to 80 as well, but 100 is still okay if SV drop.
    
2. Thanquol reduction by 20-40 points. He deletes hordes, but getting there can be hard and he doesn't bring much else aside from the + to cast, which Tzeentch, LRL, Seraphon, etc will probably unbind anyway... it would be nice if he also had + to dispell\unbind as well.
    
3. Bombardier back to 100, Engineer to 80 or stay at 100. Bombardier can absolutely shred something if you're lucky.. but when MMMWP is on the line then most won't take the risk unless it's a tide-turner; not something I feel is worth an extra 20 points.
    
4. Monks maybe go to 260 but really I think they're fine where they are overall. There's still a lot of people with bad tastes in their mouths over Monks so I expect them to stay or go up out of spite. (won't be too upset if they increase so long as SV get the right decrease above).
    
5. Gutter\Night Runners down 10-20 points. I really want to include them in all lists, but it's hard to make them fit into in numbers that mean anything. NR's are really only there for the pre-game move so 1 or 2x10 is perfect, but GR's have a lot more capability between 1x15-20. They won't replace Monks or SV in terms of damage, but it's nice utility and a backline threat like Shadow Warriors. (except... you know, they have to come out T1?)
    
6. RAT OGRES. Really wanna see them drop by 30-50 points honestly. They have the potential to be a decent hammer (not great, just decent) but they're way over costed currently.

Some more realistic than others maybe.. I dunno. Probably missing some things.. but that's an "off the top" summary. Doomflayers could drop too obviously, even if they were 10 points I don't know that I would bring them 😅

I expect raises too, but couldn't really say what anymore considering tournament placings should tell GW exactly what they need in terms of our effectiveness.

I mostly agree with your thoughts.

although I wish gw wouldn’t forget the eshin side of the skaven.

the deathmaster desperately needs a pointsdecrease to 60,

so do the units of night runners, which feel a bit on the expensive side considering how their only use is as a meatshield.

gutter runners kinda seem okish, but it would be great if you could take them in units of 30-40.

after-all we are a horde army, and what better way then to show that of with numerous numbers.

as for pestilence I kinda feel that plague censer bearers are in a dire situation, where they could easily use as small decrease in points and an increase in size,

or a huge decrease.

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[gronnelg]

Getting the verminlords back down would be nice too I guess? 
And I want assasins to be viable... But that would require a rules rewrite I guess.
And pherhaps getting WLV down to 80 points?