AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Laststand]

1 minute ago, Skreech Verminking said:

So I’ll be taking part at a tournament in a few weeks.

Now I’ve been trying a certain theme for my skaven out.

The list has pretty mich remained the same, although I have exchanged Vermintide for Prismatic palisade.

Vermintide is a great spell, but it didn’t really do much for me.

I’d rather have something that can keep my heroes and well more expensive units like doomwheels and acolytes a bit save from shooting.
and the palisade, just does that.

anyways here’s my list:

Allegiance: Skaventide
- Mortal Realm: Chamon
LEADERS
Skarn, Engineer of Doom! (120)
Warlock Bombardier
- General
- Command Trait : Deranged Inventor
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism : More-more-more Warp Power!
Snag and Grum (120)
Warlock Bombardier
- Artefact : Vial of the Fulminator
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism : More-more-more Warp Power!
Skraa the incredible mad (120)
Warlock Bombardier
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism : More-more-more Warp Power!
UNITS
The black furred Gnawers of the deep warrens (200)
40 x Clanrats - Rusty Blade
Skallogs mighty backstabbing backstabbers (200)
40 x Clanrats - Rusty Blade
Skreelogs cowardly Vermins (200)
40 x Clanrats - Rusty Blade
Wheel of Dooom!! (160)
1 x Doomwheel
The Messenger of Dooom! (160)
1 x Doomwheel
The mysterious Mystery (80)
10 x Night Runners
The unknown (80)
10 x Night Runners
Deathvermins (240)
20 x Skryre Acolytes
Skarns miserable Experiments (240)
20 x Skryre Acolytes
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Bell of Doom (40) Prismatic Palisade (30)
TOTAL: 1990/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 211
LEADERS: 3/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 2/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ALLIES: 0/400

Thoughts on it, tipps or even just plain complaints, are always welcomed.

 

3 bombardiers? That is a lot of redundancy. You could drop one, make the other two plain engineers and have a third doomwheel or a grey seer. 

[Skreech Verminking]

5 minutes ago, Laststand said:

3 bombardiers? That is a lot of redundancy. You could drop one, make the other two plain engineers and have a third doomwheel or a grey seer. 

A third doomwheel.

mmh that does sound great.

but so do 3bombadiers too.

mmh.

🤔mmh I think I’ll keep your idea in mind.

I do like it very much in fact

but the list has already been send, so I guess it’ll have to wait till next time.

And who knows Maybe one of those bombardiers it the lucky one and will kill a Nagash with his doom rocket😂.

considering that I’ve been already so lucky to kill a Mawcrusher, one of those special maggotkin heroes, and even rip apart a Slann with one of these, why not try it again😂.

Yes-yes no thing will stay-keep alive from a real-real pesky mad-thing,

Uahahahaha!!!

Edited June 20, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Laststand]

2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

A third doomwheel.

mmh that does sound great.

but so do 3bombadiers too.

mmh.

🤔mmh I think I’ll keep your idea in mind.

I do like it very much in fact

but the list has already been send, so I guess it’ll have to wait till next time.

And who knows Maybe one of those bombardiers it the lucky one and will kill a Nagash with his doom rocket😂.

considering that I’ve been already so lucky to kill a Mawcrusher, one of those special maggotkin heroes, and even rip apart a Slann with one of these, why not try it again😂.

Yes-yes no thing will stay-keep alive from a real-real pesky mad-thing,

Uahahahaha!!!

Good luck! Let us know how it goes. 

[Laststand]

Has anyone tried a Lord of Blights in a corruptor/monk heavy force? His CA on a 40monk unit looks great. -2 to hit in shooting and -1 in melee. 

[Skreech Verminking]

3 hours ago, Laststand said:

Has anyone tried a Lord of Blights in a corruptor/monk heavy force? His CA on a 40monk unit looks great. -2 to hit in shooting and -1 in melee. 

That does sound great, and might even be pretty viable, in your heavily shooting meta,

although I’m not much of a friend of taking a Pestilence Heroe as my general 

[Gwendar]

7 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Thoughts on it, tipps or even just plain complaints, are always welcomed.

I like it and have always wanted to do something similar but.. now that we know what Teclis can do, I'm even less inclined to ever run a MMMWP-centric setup. With Teclis being able to auto-cast (he doesn't need to roll spellcasts for those who don't know) between 1, 2 or 4 spells that are unbindable or count as rolls of 12 or 10 respectively and the ability to auto-unbind things every round it just.. man. I really don't see a point in even attempting to have important spellcasts in a meta where so many casters will easily just say "nope" and prevent a spell which we absolutely need in order to make Fiends\Acolytes do what they need to do.

And that isn't even counting his spell that hits every unit within 18" to do between 0-6 MW's. Imagine that through an automatically cast on a 10+ spell portal to just hit everything in your deployment T1 with it's 36" threat range? Makes me wonder why WLV was criticized to the point that it was while Comet, Mortek Crawlers, Kroak and Teclis are now doing these sorts of things to insta-gib 5 wound characters.



Anyway, sorry to tangent about it.. I just get a bit disheartened when we appear to be falling further behind and I'm not sure what small points adjustments can do. Luckily I imagine you won't have to deal with much and having 3 sources of MMMWP should work out well. Of course we all eagerly await to hear how you do.

[Skreech Verminking]

12 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I like it and have always wanted to do something similar but.. now that we know what Teclis can do, I'm even less inclined to ever run a MMMWP-centric setup. With Teclis being able to auto-cast (he doesn't need to roll spellcasts for those who don't know) between 1, 2 or 4 spells that are unbindable or count as rolls of 12 or 10 respectively and the ability to auto-unbind things every round it just.. man. I really don't see a point in even attempting to have important spellcasts in a meta where so many casters will easily just say "nope" and prevent a spell which we absolutely need in order to make Fiends\Acolytes do what they need to do.

And that isn't even counting his spell that hits every unit within 18" to do between 0-6 MW's. Imagine that through an automatically cast on a 10+ spell portal to just hit everything in your deployment T1 with it's 36" threat range? Makes me wonder why WLV was criticized to the point that it was while Comet, Mortek Crawlers, Kroak and Teclis are now doing these sorts of things to insta-gib 5 wound characters.



Anyway, sorry to tangent about it.. I just get a bit disheartened when we appear to be falling further behind and I'm not sure what small points adjustments can do. Luckily I imagine you won't have to deal with much and having 3 sources of MMMWP should work out well. Of course we all eagerly await to hear how you do.

Well considering that the tournament will be taking place in 3weeks, I kinda doubt seeing to many Lumineth player, if at all any.

so seeing teclis being fielded in any way seems kinda unlikely.

 

[Gwendar]

1 minute ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well considering that the tournament will be taking place in 3weeks, I kinda doubt seeing to many Lumineth player, if at all any.

so seeing teclis being fielded in any way seems kinda unlikely.

 

Well yeah, I was speaking in general.

Not that you personally would be playing it; I know that isn't happening 😉

[Skreech Verminking]

30 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Well yeah, I was speaking in general.

Not that you personally would be playing it; I know that isn't happening 😉

No why would I.

I already got my Skaven, and well if Magic ain’t going anymore I guess it’ll be time to go back to warplightning cannons, Screaming bells and hordes and hordes of Vermin (Clanrats)

no need to cast spell when it doesn’t work.

and it’s not like clanrats are in dire need of Deathfrenzy, or warplightning cannons in need of more more more warppower!

there is always a possibility, heck I’d even go for a plague furnace instead of the bell, should magic be literally useless till then

And having a pestilence hero as your general for the possibility of taking nurgle units as allies, will give us even more options then before

[Laststand]

How about this? I think it could be an interesting mix and at worse cause chaos on the table. 

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Verminlord Corruptor (280)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Lord of Blights (140)

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear

Units
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Doomwheel (160)
5 x Gutter Runners (60)
5 x Gutter Runners (60)

Artillery
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Vermintide (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 166
 

[Gwendar]

6 hours ago, Laststand said:

How about this?

I've been running Thanquol + Warpgnaw setups with double-Doomwheels and 40 Monks the past week or 2 with decent success. I don't know if you need MMMWP on the Doomwheels really; I think you may be better off just using those 100 points for more Clanrats, Gutter Runners or even Night Runners to edge out some T1 board space.

Definitely like were your head is at and like seeing everyone adapt; I just worry that adapting will leave us lacking in hitting power and control, but time will tell.

[Martin87]

17 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

So I’ll be taking part at a tournament in a few weeks.

Now I’ve been trying a certain theme for my skaven out.

The list has pretty mich remained the same, although I have exchanged Vermintide for Prismatic palisade.

Vermintide is a great spell, but it didn’t really do much for me.

I’d rather have something that can keep my heroes and well more expensive units like doomwheels and acolytes a bit save from shooting.
and the palisade, just does that.

anyways here’s my list:

Allegiance: Skaventide
- Mortal Realm: Chamon
LEADERS
Skarn, Engineer of Doom! (120)
Warlock Bombardier
- General
- Command Trait : Deranged Inventor
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism : More-more-more Warp Power!
Snag and Grum (120)
Warlock Bombardier
- Artefact : Vial of the Fulminator
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism : More-more-more Warp Power!
Skraa the incredible mad (120)
Warlock Bombardier
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism : More-more-more Warp Power!
UNITS
The black furred Gnawers of the deep warrens (200)
40 x Clanrats - Rusty Blade
Skallogs mighty backstabbing backstabbers (200)
40 x Clanrats - Rusty Blade
Skreelogs cowardly Vermins (200)
40 x Clanrats - Rusty Blade
Wheel of Dooom!! (160)
1 x Doomwheel
The Messenger of Dooom! (160)
1 x Doomwheel
The mysterious Mystery (80)
10 x Night Runners
The unknown (80)
10 x Night Runners
Deathvermins (240)
20 x Skryre Acolytes
Skarns miserable Experiments (240)
20 x Skryre Acolytes
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Bell of Doom (40) Prismatic Palisade (30)
TOTAL: 1990/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 211
LEADERS: 3/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 2/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ALLIES: 0/400

Thoughts on it, tipps or even just plain complaints, are always welcomed.

 

I could use this list 

[Cosmicsheep]

On 6/20/2020 at 7:10 PM, Laststand said:

How about this? I think it could be an interesting mix and at worse cause chaos on the table. 

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Verminlord Corruptor (280)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Lord of Blights (140)

Sorry, but how have you got Lord of Blights in a mixed Skaventide army? Surely he'd only be an ally in a pure pestilence list?

Edited June 22, 2020 by Cosmicsheep
typo

[Laststand]

@Cosmicsheep The book says nurgle are allies if the skaven general is Clan Pestilens. It doesnt have to be your whole army.

My understanding is that the restriction of having your whole army from 1 clan is so that you can unlock battleline options. So you can take a pestilens or eshin battalion in a mixed skaventide list as long as you meet its unit requirements. 

If i remember rightly @Gwendar shared a list a while back that was mixed but had a Skryre battalion for double WLC.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Laststand
Tag

[Cosmicsheep]

@Laststand  so it is... i always read that as having to have the whole army as Pestilens. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Cosmicsheep
deleted stupid question

[TimeToWaste85]

1 hour ago, Cosmicsheep said:

@Laststand  so it is... i always read that as having to have the whole army as Pestilens. 

Yeah, only the general matters for this. Honestly though, I’m a bigger fan of allying in Epidemius while having a trio of plague claws. Or a Nurgle soul grinder (or both, if points are high enough!)

I have a couple Nurgle suggestions for allies in 2k:

30 Plaguebearers: horde bonus, good luck moving them off an objective (320)

Epidemius: best force-multiplier for Nurgle. Go Pestilens and have a field day (200)

6 Plague Flies: tons of attacks, boosted by corruptors. Opponent can’t ignore them (400)

Soul Grinder (with Epi at 2.5k): range/combat combo monster. Let the catapults go first and do their thing, then let this boy in with his Epi boosts. (410 together)

 

[Gwendar]

2 hours ago, Laststand said:

If i remember rightly @Gwendar shared a list a while back that was mixed but had a Skryre battalion for double WLC.

True, though I've since deleted it from Azyr as I found it doesn't work out well in this meta. Getting -1 on the WLC's is awesome, don't get me wrong.. but I feel that running an AW + 2 Engineers and not having Fiends is a huge points sink. Of course if you run 6 Fiends, then you're left with 220 points (assuming only 60 Clanrats) which means I can't throw in my top picks of 40 Monks, a Warpgnaw or even 20 Acolytes. And yeah, you could replace the Fiends with 20-30 Acolytes and you would have room for other stuff; I just havent been a fan of the Acolytes lately.

Basically, if our battalions were cheaper by about 40-60 points it would be worth it so I could squeeze in one of the above. 180 points is not worth it for -1 to power rolls and an extra artifact\CP.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Gwendar

[Laststand]

56 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Basically, if our battalions were cheaper by about 40-60 points it would be worth it so I could squeeze in one of the above. 180 points is not worth it for -1 to power rolls and an extra artifact\CP.

With luck the GH is a help but I fear the only real change will be a bump for the corruptor because of how it does in the Legion.  

[Gwendar]

15 minutes ago, Laststand said:

With luck the GH is a help but I fear the only real change will be a bump for the corruptor because of how it does in the Legion.  

Yeah.. the changes can be a mixed bag so I can't really predict whether or not things go up. I wouldn't be too sad about the Corruptor simply because he gets no use within my Skaven lists aside from the now retired Magic List. The Warpgnaw has been doing this role within any list far better (no MW output, but up to 20 damage at -2 rend is just as good\better).



Speaking of lists, been seeing many of you looking into null deploy\teleport lists and have thought of something similar (and apologies if I directly copied anyone.. I didn't mean to). More or less I'm trying to see what I can do vs Teclis\Kroak\Tzeentch and getting the Fiends in range right away:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warpgnaw Verminlord (260)
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade

Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Shock Gauntlets
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)

Artillery
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 142
 

So, even with Deranged Inventor + a Warpspark the Fiends should be pulling out ~20 damage on average vs a 4+ save. Kroak surrounded by Guard and an Astrolith Bearer will still live because it isn't broken at all but Teclis and other important things have the potential to get chunked\taken off. I would love for Vigordust to be a thing here but.. of course that goes off hero phase so I don't even bother taking it as letting the Warpgnaw have Ghyrstrike is better value. It's risky, as the AW coming up with the Grinder team has the potential to kill himself.. but the other option is to downgrade to an Engineer and lose the 2nd Warpgrinder so you can take a Grey Seer and hope that you manage to get off Skitterleap... without it being unbound 🙄

Ideally you could even get the 2 Doomwheels in range to benefit from a spark as well, but not totally necessary if they need to run around elsewhere on the baord. The WLC is a give or take thing.. I like having access to it but if the AW is up the board with the Fiends then it will likely never be getting overcharged. Could sub it out with another Doomwheel or take along 15 Gutter Runners (20 if you downgrade the AW to an Engineer\Bombardier).

I don't know that it really has legs but.. that's also because it's rather high risk\reward which isn't generally my playstyle but I want to try and adapt with new things here😉

[Woodhell]

58 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Yeah.. the changes can be a mixed bag so I can't really predict whether or not things go up. I wouldn't be too sad about the Corruptor simply because he gets no use within my Skaven lists aside from the now retired Magic List. The Warpgnaw has been doing this role within any list far better (no MW output, but up to 20 damage at -2 rend is just as good\better).



Speaking of lists, been seeing many of you looking into null deploy\teleport lists and have thought of something similar (and apologies if I directly copied anyone.. I didn't mean to). More or less I'm trying to see what I can do vs Teclis\Kroak\Tzeentch and getting the Fiends in range right away:

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warpgnaw Verminlord (260)
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade

Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Shock Gauntlets
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)

Artillery
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 142
 

So, even with Deranged Inventor + a Warpspark the Fiends should be pulling out ~20 damage on average vs a 4+ save. Kroak surrounded by Guard and an Astrolith Bearer will still live because it isn't broken at all but Teclis and other important things have the potential to get chunked\taken off. I would love for Vigordust to be a thing here but.. of course that goes off hero phase so I don't even bother taking it as letting the Warpgnaw have Ghyrstrike is better value. It's risky, as the AW coming up with the Grinder team has the potential to kill himself.. but the other option is to downgrade to an Engineer and lose the 2nd Warpgrinder so you can take a Grey Seer and hope that you manage to get off Skitterleap... without it being unbound 🙄

Ideally you could even get the 2 Doomwheels in range to benefit from a spark as well, but not totally necessary if they need to run around elsewhere on the baord. The WLC is a give or take thing.. I like having access to it but if the AW is up the board with the Fiends then it will likely never be getting overcharged. Could sub it out with another Doomwheel or take along 15 Gutter Runners (20 if you downgrade the AW to an Engineer\Bombardier).

I don't know that it really has legs but.. that's also because it's rather high risk\reward which isn't generally my playstyle but I want to try and adapt with new things here😉

I actually trier a similar list recently and was quite happy of it. Only one doomwheel but some jezzails instead of the warpgnaw. M'y firepower at long range dans crazy against a Tzeench list.

[Carki]

Anybody had any success with Doom-Flayers? I have not played since fantasy and so I am having trouble comparing profile.

On paper it seems they compare unfavorably to Ratling Guns. They look real slow and more importantly I don't see much synergies with abilities /spells from heroes.

I'm hoping I'm missing something even if it's a little janky as I really like the look of them.

[Coyote]

I don’t think you’re missing anything from Doomflayers.  They don’t have a lot to offer.

[Skreech Verminking]

4 hours ago, Carki said:

Anybody had any success with Doom-Flayers? I have not played since fantasy and so I am having trouble comparing profile.

On paper it seems they compare unfavorably to Ratling Guns. They look real slow and more importantly I don't see much synergies with abilities /spells from heroes.

I'm hoping I'm missing something even if it's a little janky as I really like the look of them.

You’re sadly not mistaken.

they are sadly the worst unit in the whole book, if not even in the game.

at 60 points they cost about as much as a Rattling gun.

Although hitting and wounding on 3s, it gets outnumbered in the comparison with the attacks characteristics of a Rattling gun.

The Doomflayer does not profit from most of the skryre buffs, like for example waprstone sparks or even deranged inventor.

the only real buff it can be given is mmmwp.

And this isn’t even the worse part.

it’s overcharge mechanic is probably the worst in the game.

from d6 attacks you can overcharge it for 2d6 Attacks, although you’ll likely loose the doom flayer in a single turn, since it does not only die on a double but also suffers death by a role of a 7.

Not great for something that already gets outperformed by everything else.

So what could be done, to make it more attractive.

Well one way would be to optimize the damage to d3, have the rend.characteristic be changed to -2, and the attacks to 2d6, while overcharging will do the double amount of attacks.

but knowing games workshop, who haven’t ever changed a unit that overly outperformed, I doubt they’ll do it this time.

Although They could also just sell those doom flayers as a unit of 3 which would help them incredible at 60points.

 

[Coyote]

There’s a Canadian site that sells bases to put your square bases into their round bases.  I don’t know the link, didn’t need it, but the vendors are out there.

[Nikobot]

18 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

So what could be done, to make it more attractive.

Well one way would be to optimize the damage to d3, have the rend.characteristic be changed to -2, and the attacks to 2d6, while overcharging will do the double amount of attacks.

but knowing games workshop, who haven’t ever changed a unit that overly outperformed, I doubt they’ll do it this time.

Although They could also just sell those doom flayers as a unit of 3 which would help them incredible at 60points.

weapons teams all have a bit of an issue with their design now as the game has evolved and so many ways exist to get them off the board at range.  with 3w and a 6+ save, they may either do something great or disappear without a whimper. for 60-70pts its a bit of a turn off, which is prob why they dont see too much play

your not wrong about the doomflayer, worst unit in the game! i think the doomflayer could stand to be in units of 1-3, 3d6mv, 4w, 4+ save and on the charge do d3mws on a 4+, fix their silly overcharge to just doubles and cost them at 40-50pts . in a unit of 3 they could lurk around the lines for well placed charges or go chase objectives to clear off in the backfield. prob do 10w before saves + 3mws... not much after that but you could see a use in that way

id like to see warpfires do mws on 5+ and 50pts each

ratlings prob fine at 60pts, maybe 50pts... or maybe make their overcharge only an extra d6 and make them 40pts

by making the teams cheaper, i think its easier to mentally accept you could be paying for something that isnt going to get a single shot off and they could see more play. right now they arent popular which is a shame as they are synonymous with Skaven's crazy theme!