Calling All Women!

[kenshin620]

10 minutes ago, Waiyuren said:

and laser dinos

The best dinos!
 

Spoiler

 

 

[Nico]

9 hours ago, HollowHills said:

Idoneth Deepkin have both genders represented fairly. 1/3 eel riders are female, 4/10 nemarti, 1/4 ishrann heroes. I believe there is a female model that comes with the turtle.

It may be difficult to tell with the akhelians because they all wear the same armour. There isn't any boob or excessive flesh being shown at all, which is likely due to the fact that over half of them are blind and all of them are pretty keen to avoid intense sensual experience. 

If you look at the new sculpts GW have released for sigmar this year all of them have female representation. Even the ghosts got banshees and a lady hero. 

That said I don't think they should be including diversity for the sake of it. For example I'm quite keen not to see female dwarfs, ogors and greens kins as they don't fit with the setting and established lore. 

The Tidecaster is female, she’s the go-to general.

[Nico]

Alarielle and Branchwychs/Branchwraiths.

[Marc Wilson]

I managed to hold Mrs Wilsons attention for 5 minutes (she tolerates / is mystified by the hobby) and she liked Witch Elves the best - "nice pink hair". She's such a know-nothing! 

 

[Ollie Grimwood]

3 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

 Plus it doesn't help GW that it did seem a tad.....racist when they did Orks vs Praetorian Imperial Guard in 40k...essentially copy pasting the Zulu Wars into 40k with the Zulus being the Orks. Granted that was years ago, and I still like the Praetorian Pith Helmet models, but I don't think something like that would fly today!

 

They re did the Last Stand at Glazer’s Creek in June’s White Dwarf, which seems to have garnered very little criticism (none I’ve seen).   No Pith helmets though. 

[Kamose]

12 hours ago, Melcavuk said:

...but a lot of the races are so far removed gender is irrelevant (Daemons, Orruks, Gross, Ogors, Seraphon, Sylvaneth) or so armoured you couldn’t tell the difference (Kharadon)

I agree except for one thing.  Seraphon are clearly all female as many male reptiles develop a hemipenile bulge at the base of their tail upon sexual maturity.  This bulge is lacking from all Seraphon models and therefore they're all female.  

I'm completely confident that the person designing the Saurus Warriors and Stegadon and other Seraphon was an extremely dedicated herpetologist and intentionally designed them this way.  Being totally serious now.  Totally.  Like everyone who says, "Being totally serious now." ?

[TheOtherJosh]

I’ll make the quasi-heretical suggestion to expand beyond the AoS boundaries.

Necromunda has multiple groups with female characters. (Escher and Van Saar come to mind.) 

Dark Eldar have a copious amount of female models in actual armor/body suits.

There are third-party bits vendors with female heads.

“Boob-plate” (as it is commonly called) is a dangerous fantasy creation... it has a serious potential to redirect the blow to the center of the chest... and causing serious bodily injury and likely death. Typical female plate armor would actually look  virtually identical to male body armor.

The Aelf factions have a solid gender split. (And the 40k Equivalents).

In 40k there are a good number of female models, the Harlequins ... technically you have the Sisters of Battle (whose armor explicitly emphasizes their female form as they are symbols of the Ecclesiarchy ... and likely because of the ‘nuns with guns’ tropes.)

The new Rogue Trader “Kill Team” game has a Female Rogue Trader Captain and her medical officer is female, and the Death Cult assassin is also female. https://www.games-workshop.com/Kill-Team-Rogue-Trader-2018-eng

One of the ‘voidsmen’ could be female with the long hair ... but it didn’t seem to be identified.

The 40K Sisters Of Silence are females in power armor. https://www.games-workshop.com/Sisters-of-Silence-Squad-of-10 and would make good conversion options.

As was mentioned, in the Stormcast there are a number of females (half of the Incantor models can be female) 

There are fully clothed Vampire females, a number of the robed characters could be female... and you can’t tell with the normal Skaven.

In the LOTR Model Line there are a number of females, and female hero characters...

They are there, just not as common.

[Nos]

6 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

A slight tangent, but I kind of thought that the introduction of the Primaris Marines would have been a great way to deal with the "should there be female space marines" issue once and for all. They could have said, quite definitively and canonically; Space Marines have always been men up till now, but this new faction of Space Marines can include anyone.

Sadly I suspect that would have been too controversial a move with some elements of their fanbase.

I think its quite interesting that the sorts of aesthetics that appeal to men and women don't seem to be symmetrical. I know quite a few male gamers who like the chainmail bikini look of the Witch Elves. However, very few of the ladies I game with are fond of the similarly scantily clad Chaos Barbarians and Fyreslayers.

I read an interesting essay (that I can't now find irritatingly) by a female gamer who made the observation that the macho satire of Space Marines should preclude it to female members of the chapters. Basically because the ludicrous patriarchy of Space Marines is so awful that it would be rather incongruous/missing the joke to let woven in to their ranks. Space Marines are the embodiment of boys who want to fight and shoot guns, forever. They wouldn't want girls joining in and definitely wouldn't trust them.

It will be interesting to see what they do with the new Sisters, there's a considerable mine field to tread there.

[Lior'Lec]

     I’ve got three daughters who are all getting simi-sucked into AoS and love fantasy/nerdy stuff in general. I’ve asked them and they don’t really want an all-female force (just like me) but rather a dispersion between the sexes. As an example my middle child is painting Sylvaneth now, and the first thing she noticed (and didn’t like) was that all of the models in her start collecting kit where female (she hadn’t build the tree lord at that point). She wants a mostly but not all female force. She has already decided which additional units she wants added including multiple units of the male tree hunters (forget their names).

     Maybe my children’s views are effected by my own. For me personally, I don’t want to see a hard 50/50 division in a faction outside of certain elf factions where I feel it fits thematically. Elf men are themselves very willowy and therefore as a species they wouldn’t have developed the same gender roles/views another species may have developed. For most factions I think somewhere between 20% and 40% for the minority would fit much better (reguardless of which gender that is).

     I always loved fantasy, but like another poster mentioned above I think the best answer is to see more diversity in how females are  portrayed. The sexualization of women in fantasy helped keep it a boys club for a long time, but the 80’s are over and it’s time to move beyond the limits of Red Sonya vs Disney Princess. I want my children to have archetypes they can aspire to without making me feel like I should grab them a robe if they emulate it. 

     And just for clairification: I’m male, father of three, 21 years in the service, and more than willing to bust heads if someone where to overstep their bounds where my children are concerned (if the girls don’t beat me to it at any rate).

[Summerland]

I created an account specifically to answer this question. I am a male gamer who recently stopped going to a few local gaming stores in my area due to the general air of toxic masculinity/casual misogyny that really put my wife and I off. Suffice to say, the hobby has a long way to go. 

My wife is not a hobbyist—she’s a physician and has little time for it—but she does sometimes like to sit and paint with me, and gives her opinions on what she prefers. I think that this thread offers an example of a lot of behaviors that turn women off the hobby. 

For starters, it’s important to always critically evaluate why particular hobbies are dominated by a specific gender. We tend to assume that women simply aren’t interested, or that they would only be interested if they were directly pandered to—but the fact is that much of the reason that our hobby is so male-centric is because the males within our hobby do such a poor job at making women feel welcome in hobby shops. It is no accident that as sporting stadiums become more welcoming to women, more female fans showed up—there was always latent interest, but when you create a toxic environment for women it’s hardly surprising when no women show up. 

For instance, it’s always insulting when someone requests greater representation, and the response is “When you look at it sideways, K.O or Seraphon could technically be women anyway!” This is purposefully missing the point. When one looks at a Chaos Warrior, or Khorne Bloodsecrator, or an Ork Megaboss, or a Vampire Lord, one is immediately aware that one is looking at a male. Representation for women cannot simply be all the models that are not obviously men; it’s important that they read as female from the get go. 

Additionally, I see a lot of people arguing that we don’t need “full equality,” or that some smaller percentage of representation will do. The problem, of course, is that women are not monolithic. What one woman loves another would hate—I imagine if the genders were switched, we would be very confused if someone asked “What kind of factions would men like to play with?” The default answer is all of them—because men, like women, have individual aesthetic and narrative tastes. Women should not be forced to fight for scraps at the table, a spare model here or there within a line. If we truly want to diversify the hobby, it has to start with a commitment to gender inclusion, and a wide range of diverse female miniatures is a good (albeit small) step. 

[RuneBrush]

4 hours ago, Summerland said:

When one looks at a Chaos Warrior, or Khorne Bloodsecrator, or an Ork Megaboss, or a Vampire Lord,

One opinion I've got on Bloodbound is based on how the Bloodbound grow their numbers.  Basically they attack a village/tribe and offer the captives the option to drink the blood of their fellow captives and join or be killed.  I've always looked at it and thought that the women of the tribe would have chosen not to become cannibals (on the whole at least).

Vampire wise I think it's more that the model range is really limited and pretty old.  At one point there were more female vampires, but the range was reduced a few months back.  Ultimately I do think that we're going to get a better balance of them in the future.

[HollowHills]

4 hours ago, Summerland said:

I created an account specifically to answer this question. I am a male gamer who recently stopped going to a few local gaming stores in my area due to the general air of toxic masculinity/casual misogyny that really put my wife and I off. Suffice to say, the hobby has a long way to go. 

My wife is not a hobbyist—she’s a physician and has little time for it—but she does sometimes like to sit and paint with me, and gives her opinions on what she prefers. I think that this thread offers an example of a lot of behaviors that turn women off the hobby. 

For starters, it’s important to always critically evaluate why particular hobbies are dominated by a specific gender. We tend to assume that women simply aren’t interested, or that they would only be interested if they were directly pandered to—but the fact is that much of the reason that our hobby is so male-centric is because the males within our hobby do such a poor job at making women feel welcome in hobby shops. It is no accident that as sporting stadiums become more welcoming to women, more female fans showed up—there was always latent interest, but when you create a toxic environment for women it’s hardly surprising when no women show up. 

For instance, it’s always insulting when someone requests greater representation, and the response is “When you look at it sideways, K.O or Seraphon could technically be women anyway!” This is purposefully missing the point. When one looks at a Chaos Warrior, or Khorne Bloodsecrator, or an Ork Megaboss, or a Vampire Lord, one is immediately aware that one is looking at a male. Representation for women cannot simply be all the models that are not obviously men; it’s important that they read as female from the get go. 

Additionally, I see a lot of people arguing that we don’t need “full equality,” or that some smaller percentage of representation will do. The problem, of course, is that women are not monolithic. What one woman loves another would hate—I imagine if the genders were switched, we would be very confused if someone asked “What kind of factions would men like to play with?” The default answer is all of them—because men, like women, have individual aesthetic and narrative tastes. Women should not be forced to fight for scraps at the table, a spare model here or there within a line. If we truly want to diversify the hobby, it has to start with a commitment to gender inclusion, and a wide range of diverse female miniatures is a good (albeit small) step. 

Rather unfortunate that you felt you had to stop going to some of the gaming shops in your area. I don't believe this kind of thing is something that I've personally experienced. I'm one of the youngest players of sigmar at my local, being 24 and the rest generally being late twenties upwards with a few exceptions. Most of us are either married or in long term relationships and a few have kids. It is almost exclusively male but not by design. What constitutes the kind of environment that would make it hostile to women? I make jokes with friends there that I wouldn't necessarily around our partners, for instance saying on the charge "I'm going to smash your back door in" or describing bloodreavers as "the leather fetish boys club". Well, possibly using more colourful language. Yet that's only done when I'm aware of who I'm with and that they will appreciate that kind of humour. 

Now that said, if someone feels a hostile environment is being created I would suggest they consider whether the right thing to do would be to actively challenge individuals with those behaviours. 

I think the main reason for women not being involved in Warhammer has nothing to do with community. It's the same reason men are far more likely to be into other hobbies like model trains, woodcraft or rugby. From a very young age we are encouraged towards "boys toys" and activities while girls are not. For instance consider Lego, the kind of building and creativity toy that is almost universally popular among boys. It encourages the collecting, building and colouring that Warhammer does from a young age. Yet, despite coloured blocks having no gender they have always been marketed as a toy for boys. At least in recent memory. They launched the "friends" brand thst reduced a lot of the building aspect and focused more on set scenes with doll style models specifically towards girls. 

I imagine many of us see Warhammer, whether as kids, teens or adults and in the back of our mind in falls into the "boys toy" category whereas women,when children were never taught to see such toys as something for them. 

Now many of us aged 20 to 40 probably have different attitudes and wouldnt necessarily want to sway our children's preferences based on their gender. Yet our parents, as a generalisation, were probably more inclined towards saying things like "no x that's a girl's toy you can't have it" and so on. 

These kind of attitudes towards gender roles have developed over a long period of time, helped in the modern era by marketing teams that insist on applying gendered concepts in order to specifically target an audience. They will take a long time to undo. 

[Ravinsild]

4 hours ago, Summerland said:

I created an account specifically to answer this question. I am a male gamer who recently stopped going to a few local gaming stores in my area due to the general air of toxic masculinity/casual misogyny that really put my wife and I off. Suffice to say, the hobby has a long way to go. 

My wife is not a hobbyist—she’s a physician and has little time for it—but she does sometimes like to sit and paint with me, and gives her opinions on what she prefers. I think that this thread offers an example of a lot of behaviors that turn women off the hobby. 

For starters, it’s important to always critically evaluate why particular hobbies are dominated by a specific gender. We tend to assume that women simply aren’t interested, or that they would only be interested if they were directly pandered to—but the fact is that much of the reason that our hobby is so male-centric is because the males within our hobby do such a poor job at making women feel welcome in hobby shops. It is no accident that as sporting stadiums become more welcoming to women, more female fans showed up—there was always latent interest, but when you create a toxic environment for women it’s hardly surprising when no women show up. 

For instance, it’s always insulting when someone requests greater representation, and the response is “When you look at it sideways, K.O or Seraphon could technically be women anyway!” This is purposefully missing the point. When one looks at a Chaos Warrior, or Khorne Bloodsecrator, or an Ork Megaboss, or a Vampire Lord, one is immediately aware that one is looking at a male. Representation for women cannot simply be all the models that are not obviously men; it’s important that they read as female from the get go. 

Additionally, I see a lot of people arguing that we don’t need “full equality,” or that some smaller percentage of representation will do. The problem, of course, is that women are not monolithic. What one woman loves another would hate—I imagine if the genders were switched, we would be very confused if someone asked “What kind of factions would men like to play with?” The default answer is all of them—because men, like women, have individual aesthetic and narrative tastes. Women should not be forced to fight for scraps at the table, a spare model here or there within a line. If we truly want to diversify the hobby, it has to start with a commitment to gender inclusion, and a wide range of diverse female miniatures is a good (albeit small) step. 

But.... my vampire lord is clearly a female  from GW itself. I mean she’s resin and her sword wilted but she’s for sure a female. Same with my Neferata...

[Enoby]

46 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

What constitutes the kind of environment that would make it hostile to women?

Not the person you're replying to, but I may be able to help

One of the gaming clubs I go to has a regular who, on the whole, is a pretty nice guy, but he can be a little forward in his opinions. There was one example, I was waiting for my brother (who was busy trying to order something) and was sat near this guy who was painting one of the new Stormcast (a female Stormcast). Pretty much out of nowhere, he started talking to me about why female Space Marines would make him quit the hobby (he abhorred the idea of them). I can imagine that, especially for a new member, it may put a woman off to hear someone say they'd stop playing the game if an army added women. 

I don't think this guy was a sexist, and he likely had very valid reasons to not want female Space Marines (even if quitting everything is a bit of an overreaction), but from an outsider's perspective, it may be offputting. 

I've also noticed a higher than normal proportion of 'anti-SJWs' who bemoan the idea of greater representation, and may express fear of GW pandering to particular crowds. Regardless of if their arguments hold water, it runs the risk of alienating a group when it sounds like the 'anti-SJWs' would hate for them to take part. 

I've not seen an issue with people being offended at crude jokes, unless those jokes specifically focus on a certain group or use the word 'r@pe' (which is unfortunately pretty common). 

Obviously, this isn't the same for everyone and gaming group experiences  vary wildly all over the world - this is just what I've seen

 

Also, to the side, when I've tried to get my female friends into Warhammer, many have expressed a dislike of going into one of the shops as they feel they would get leered at for not belonging there. Just adding another perspective.  

[AlphaKennyThing]

5 hours ago, Summerland said:

I created an account specifically to answer this question. I am a male gamer who recently stopped going to a few local gaming stores in my area due to the general air of toxic masculinity/casual misogyny that really put my wife and I off. Suffice to say, the hobby has a long way to go. 

My wife is not a hobbyist—she’s a physician and has little time for it—but she does sometimes like to sit and paint with me, and gives her opinions on what she prefers. I think that this thread offers an example of a lot of behaviors that turn women off the hobby. 

For starters, it’s important to always critically evaluate why particular hobbies are dominated by a specific gender. We tend to assume that women simply aren’t interested, or that they would only be interested if they were directly pandered to—but the fact is that much of the reason that our hobby is so male-centric is because the males within our hobby do such a poor job at making women feel welcome in hobby shops. It is no accident that as sporting stadiums become more welcoming to women, more female fans showed up—there was always latent interest, but when you create a toxic environment for women it’s hardly surprising when no women show up. 

For instance, it’s always insulting when someone requests greater representation, and the response is “When you look at it sideways, K.O or Seraphon could technically be women anyway!” This is purposefully missing the point. When one looks at a Chaos Warrior, or Khorne Bloodsecrator, or an Ork Megaboss, or a Vampire Lord, one is immediately aware that one is looking at a male. Representation for women cannot simply be all the models that are not obviously men; it’s important that they read as female from the get go. 

Additionally, I see a lot of people arguing that we don’t need “full equality,” or that some smaller percentage of representation will do. The problem, of course, is that women are not monolithic. What one woman loves another would hate—I imagine if the genders were switched, we would be very confused if someone asked “What kind of factions would men like to play with?” The default answer is all of them—because men, like women, have individual aesthetic and narrative tastes. Women should not be forced to fight for scraps at the table, a spare model here or there within a line. If we truly want to diversify the hobby, it has to start with a commitment to gender inclusion, and a wide range of diverse female miniatures is a good (albeit small) step. 

This was a very interesting response. Particularly so because I've never seen gaming clubs as particularly... masculine. It may be perhaps because I'm in the military, where things can be over-masculine at times, that in comparison the gaming club I went to was just a bunch of guys (and one or two girls) having a laugh playing some games. I've noticed that in the times my wife accompanied me briefly to the club before going elsewhere there was an air of awkwardness in the room, like "ooooo a girl - can I poke it?". Certainly no-one was hostile, but I can immediately see how that alone would be off-putting.

Did your other half have any opinion at all on what sort of thing might get her more interested in AoS? What sort of products she'd like to see, or indeed what sort of games (boxed sets like Silver Tower etc)?

[AlphaKennyThing]

2 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Not the person you're replying to, but I may be able to help

One of the gaming clubs I go to has a regular who, on the whole, is a pretty nice guy, but he can be a little forward in his opinions. There was one example, I was waiting for my brother (who was busy trying to order something) and was sat near this guy who was painting one of the new Stormcast (a female Stormcast). Pretty much out of nowhere, he started talking to me about why female Space Marines would make him quit the hobby (he abhorred the idea of them). I can imagine that, especially for a new member, it may put a woman off to hear someone say they'd stop playing the game if an army added women. 

I don't think this guy was a sexist, and he likely had very valid reasons to not want female Space Marines (even if quitting everything is a bit of an overreaction), but from an outsider's perspective, it may be offputting. 

I've also noticed a higher than normal proportion of 'anti-SJWs' who bemoan the idea of greater representation, and may express fear of GW pandering to particular crowds. Regardless of if their arguments hold water, it runs the risk of alienating a group when it sounds like the 'anti-SJWs' would hate for them to take part. 

I've not seen an issue with people being offended at crude jokes, unless those jokes specifically focus on a certain group or use the word 'r@pe' (which is unfortunately pretty common). 

Obviously, this isn't the same for everyone and gaming group experiences  vary wildly all over the world - this is just what I've seen

 

Also, to the side, when I've tried to get my female friends into Warhammer, many have expressed a dislike of going into one of the shops as they feel they would get leered at for not belonging there. Just adding another perspective.  

That last bit is not the first time that's been mentioned now, so thanks for the response Enoby! What do you think can be done to fix that?

I've noticed that a general trend amongst wargamers (of course not all) is that they can be, at times, slightly on the socially awkward side. It might only be one or two in a shop of twenty people, but that's sometimes all it takes. Even I've found myself the recipient of a full debrief on the dire situation of XYZ faction that has left me with raised eyebrows when I didn't initiate any kind of conversation. Some people in the hobby can be quite... intense.

[Ollie Grimwood]

5 hours ago, Summerland said:

 

For instance, it’s always insulting when someone requests greater representation, and the response is “When you look at it sideways, K.O or Seraphon could technically be women anyway!” This is purposefully missing the point. 

No it isn’t it’s very much the point. It’s about what sort of representation is wanted. Seraphon and quite possibly Orruks (if Orks are anything to go by) don’t have a gender. Human women let alone Dwarf ones in full armour look the same a men (albeit with a lower average height).  Do we need the Eldar Scrolls shambles of having ****** on a lizard or the Drycha ****** on a Tree model, perhaps full WoW where every faction is basically a reskinned human.  

When you sit down and have a look at the range their are quite a few female models and plenty of models that make perfectly acceptable female models with head swaps or models which have no obvious gender. So the question is “how does this representation need to be realised?” 

Or is it all a red herring and there’s actually something else going on  

 

[Ollie Grimwood]

11 minutes ago, Enoby said:

 

Also, to the side, when I've tried to get my female friends into Warhammer, many have expressed a dislike of going into one of the shops as they feel they would get leered at for not belonging there. Just adding another perspective.  

My wife and her friend who frequent the local GW to buy me stuff on occasion inform me that no one other than the staff will make eye contact and generally look uncomfortable. 

I’m minded of an experience at a GW tournament in the early 00s is was working at. There was a panel of studio staff including a female eavy metal painter. I was approached by a member of the studio team who asked some other staffers and I to speak with her in an effort to get some of the attendees to approach her as no one had spoken to her for several hours.  It didn’t seem she was being ignored out of spite but rather the attendees seemed very unsure about speaking with her. 

Does this resonate at all? 

[Enoby]

2 minutes ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

That last bit is not the first time that's been mentioned now, so thanks for the response Enoby! What do you think can be done to fix that?

No problem

I think a lot of their issues stemmed from it feeling a bit like an exclusive boys-only club; everyone makes jokes and knows one another, so coming in as a new player can be intimidating regardless of who you are. This is increased when you're the only woman in the shop. From what I've found, once you're in the gaming group then it's not intimidating regardless of gender, but getting there in the first place is the issue. 

The only thing I can think of is trying to be more welcoming to new people in general - introduce them to the friendlier people of the club (steering them away from That Guys). Also, not actively treating a woman different is useful; immediately showing her the 'feminine' armies may come off as patronising as it assumes something about her because of her gender*.

That said, I think most of it comes from social stigma around gaming groups (in that they're sometimes thought to be boys clubs filled with the stereotypical fedora wielding neckbeard - this isn't true 99% of times, but that seems to be a common outsider perception), which is a very hard one to break.

 

 

*I realise this may come off as a bit strange considering I've talked about how more inclusive models would help, and how I liked some armies because of their strong female characters, but there is a difference between having a preference and being assumed to want something because of gender. While I picked up Death due to Neferata, my other 5 armies were all due to different reasons, and some women may not care at all about a female army. I found that Neferata existed on my own just after playing my first game. 

[Marc Wilson]

9 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

No it isn’t it’s very much the point. It’s about what sort of representation is wanted. Seraphon and quite possibly Orruks (if Orks are anything to go by) don’t have a gender. Human women let alone Dwarf ones in full armour look the same a men (albeit with a lower average height).  Do we need the Eldar Scrolls shambles of having ****** on a lizard or the Drycha ****** on a Tree model, perhaps full WoW where every faction is basically a reskinned human.  

 When you sit down and have a look at the range their are quite a few female models and plenty of models that make perfectly acceptable female models with head swaps or models which have no obvious gender. So the question is “how does this representation need to be realised?” 

Or is it all a red herring and there’s actually something else going on  

 

Or is it? Or should the question be 'does this representation need to be realised?” 

The answer to that could be ' it already is' - probably there is a accurate proportion of female models to the amount of women gamers. It could be 'it already is, but we want to demonstrably increase it to broaden our appeal to potential new customers and untapped markets' - I feel like this is the true motive.  I think GW will be too savvy to purposefully push an external agenda akin to social engineering. Like many, I'm comfortable five figures in the hole to GV and I don't see them producing fantastically good-looking 5'9" bald, paunchy looking dudes that accurately represent me. Except for Bretonnian Pilgrims.

I like women; I'm married to one and have sired another. I've hired plenty and enjoy friendships with them and collaborate and work with them every day. Same with men (except the marrying bit). I don't really care if women play warhammer or not, same way I don't really care what colour my opponents are, where they come from or what hair style they have. 

My missus might arch an eyebrow  if I spent my weekends going to tournaments with other women though!

[Overread]

"Clique" clubs happen without people realising and its natural human behaviour that a group (pack) develops behaviours and in-jokes that take a while to settle into no matter if you are man or woman. However if you've any significant overt difference - gender, hair colour, ethnicity, clothing choices etc... - then it can either at as a focus for the group or it can make such in-jokes and behaviour appear targeted even when its not. 

This isn't something GW can directly  tackle themselves outside of their own stores. In the club scene I think one big difference is how active the group is in recruitment. Many clubs have an initial period of growth where they haven't yet got any group habits and where they are active in getting people in; then they can go through a period of fewer new gamers (they dry up the easy to draw in locals) which is when the injokes and such behaviour become established in the groups dynamic. Clubs can then start to dwindle and try to pull people in or they can pick up the odd person here and there. Ergo I think one thing that subconsciously "closes ranks" within a group is when the group stops thinking about getting new people into the hobby. I think if a group remains very active in recruitment and, importantly, remains diverse in its attempts to recruit; then many of the clique behaviours can be muted because the group composition is continually changing more readily so it can't establish a whole group behaviour.

 

Also sometimes there is a desire from both gender groups, to have places where they are with their own gender. The man-cave; the womens club etc... Ergo hobbies where people go to be with others who are similar to them in gender away from the other gender. Its got nothing to do with hating the other gender, or not wanting them to take part in the hobby or activity itself; its just about spending time "With the lads/gals". To many this is what Wargaming has been, its that man-shed at the bottom of the garden where they go to be away from women. Whilst this has never been factually true, nor been the marketing focus of GW; it is how some have established it. You can see it in other hobbies too - yoga or ponyclub/horseriding can be very dominantly women; golf or wargaming dominantly men. Snapping the back of that casual perception is tricky and wargaming is by no means alone in its struggle. Often I think that its best broken through casual and subtle means and shifts rather than a big "we are changing push" because big pushes get big pushback - and often just because people dislike change not of their own making.

[Enoby]

12 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Does this resonate at all? 

When I started playing, it was just as AoS was released and there was a mass exodus of many Fantasy fans. This meant that the gaming group was very small so it wasn't difficult to find a game. I have noticed some people be a little more awkward around me, but nothing offputting. 

I reckon it resonates with my friends, though, who said they often felt like 'the other' when walking into a GW, as if they shouldn't have been there.

[AlphaKennyThing]

9 hours ago, Lior'Lec said:

     I’ve got three daughters who are all getting simi-sucked into AoS and love fantasy/nerdy stuff in general. I’ve asked them and they don’t really want an all-female force (just like me) but rather a dispersion between the sexes. As an example my middle child is painting Sylvaneth now, and the first thing she noticed (and didn’t like) was that all of the models in her start collecting kit where female (she hadn’t build the tree lord at that point). She wants a mostly but not all female force. She has already decided which additional units she wants added including multiple units of the male tree hunters (forget their names).

     Maybe my children’s views are effected by my own. For me personally, I don’t want to see a hard 50/50 division in a faction outside of certain elf factions where I feel it fits thematically. Elf men are themselves very willowy and therefore as a species they wouldn’t have developed the same gender roles/views another species may have developed. For most factions I think somewhere between 20% and 40% for the minority would fit much better (reguardless of which gender that is).

     I always loved fantasy, but like another poster mentioned above I think the best answer is to see more diversity in how females are  portrayed. The sexualization of women in fantasy helped keep it a boys club for a long time, but the 80’s are over and it’s time to move beyond the limits of Red Sonya vs Disney Princess. I want my children to have archetypes they can aspire to without making me feel like I should grab them a robe if they emulate it. 

     And just for clairification: I’m male, father of three, 21 years in the service, and more than willing to bust heads if someone where to overstep their bounds where my children are concerned (if the girls don’t beat me to it at any rate).

That is a second common trend I've noticed - all female forces aren't desirable, certainly not for my wife, your daughters and a couple of other posters. At the same time, if the lore dictates an army is all female, great - same for an all male force.

[AlphaKennyThing]

Thread title amended so @Melcavuk 's partner doesn't cave my head in with a cricket bat ?

[HollowHills]

52 minutes ago, Overread said:

Also sometimes there is a desire from both gender groups, to have places where they are with their own gender. The man-cave; the womens club etc... Ergo hobbies where people go to be with others who are similar to them in gender away from the other gender. Its got nothing to do with hating the other gender, or not wanting them to take part in the hobby or activity itself; its just about spending time "With the lads/gals". To many this is what Wargaming has been, its that man-shed at the bottom of the garden where they go to be away from women. Whilst this has never been factually true, nor been the marketing focus of GW; it is how some have established it. You can see it in other hobbies too - yoga or ponyclub/horseriding can be very dominantly women; golf or wargaming dominantly men. Snapping the back of that casual perception is tricky and wargaming is by no means alone in its struggle. Often I think that its best broken through casual and subtle means and shifts rather than a big "we are changing push" because big pushes get big pushback - and often just because people dislike change not of their own making.

This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier on. You get used to the idea that over a few years you see the same guys every week down at the local and have some banter over a game. It becomes a space where you go to do a "male" activity with other men. It's the same kind of urge that a group of friends gets to leave the Wags at home and go to the football. There is no rule excluding women but the focus and dynamic of enjoyment is male bonding.

I am by no means socially awkward but neither am I a massive extrovert, but I don't like the idea of having to censure my behaviour around women. Not telling certain jokes etc. It's kind of the same with kids, I'd prefer my gaming experience to by and large be free of under 18s.

I think ideally having two or three women involved in a local community is the best bet. That way they can establish their own group identity and that can form a subculture within the wider local area.