AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Chumphammer]

Shadowstalkers confirmed at 100pts

[Graywater]

100 points for shadowstalkers is quite enticing. 10 points more than a harpy unit for 4 more bodies. Lose the move after shooting on a 4+ for the ability to redeploy multiple times and perform other roles on the board before doing their objective threatening. Good trade for 10 points. Theyll likely replace heartrenders for that role in my lists.

 Max unit of 18 is interesting. Smaller than I expected. 

[Chumphammer]

So with the new points, this is an option:

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar

Morathi-Khaine (210)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor

The Shadow Queen (390)

Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine

10 x Witch Aelves (120)
- Bucklers

10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers

10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers

20 x Blood Sisters (480)

9 x Khainite Shadowstalkers (100) 

9 x Khainite Shadowstalkers (100) 

- Extra Command point (50) 

1980/ 9 drops. 

[Lucentia]

100 points seems a tad too cheap for the Shadowstalkers, 110-120 would've been my guess, but not that I'm complaining I suppose.

With regards to the rumour engine obviously the statue from the cauldron of blood is quite similar, but it's probably worth noting that the cauldron statue has distinctly pointed elf ears, whereas this one has rounded human ears, which leads me to think it's probably not a DoK component necessarily.

[Mutton]

100 points is perfect to fill out lists. We don't need ANOTHER 120-140 point unit. They have great mobility, but they won't do much damage and die to a strong breeze. Capping them to 18 per unit was also smart, as it effectively reduces their maximum buff efficiency, meaning you can't roll around with a giant murder blob a la Witch Elves.

[Frowny]

100 points for those guys is absolutely nuts. 

The on the board teleport is AMAZING. I've played 2x5 units of tree revenants which have a similar ability and are very strong because of it, even if the rest of their warscroll is incredibly weak in combat and die to a muffled sneeze. Compared to the already very playable tree-reveants, 20 points gets you 

• +4 bodies
• +6 wounds
• +8 attacks at 3+/4+
• +9 ranged shots 
• -1 to hit in melee
• 1 inch of movement (doesn't matter much, but sure).

AND THEN putting them in a much strong book with solid faction abilities. for 20-points that's bananas. They are twice as good in every dimension, with enough firepower to take out lighter units and enough sturdiness (11 wounds on a 5+ save at -1 to hit for 100pts) to be competitive with some generic battleline units. They will also outduel most screen type units if they happen to make their 9 inch charge. 

People who are comparing them to harpies or other deepstrikers are missing how good the on-the-board teleport is. They can cover your backfield objective AND threaten the opponents at the same time, doing the work of 2 units in most lists. Or they can screen in front of your witch elves AND THEN teleport forward to screen out your opponent, all simultaneously. Huge value. Even a single model from a single unit left on the board will pin them on every one of their backfield objectives, while simultaneously preventing them from taking one of yours. 

Ironically, I'm not even sure they are best in daughters of khaine. They don't really need the allegience abilities (although they are certainly helped by them). 

I'm pretty sure I need to buy 3 units (or more likely convert some from some Nighthaunt) to ally into every other order army I have......

[Chumphammer]

Yeah I wanna try having 2. So much potential to cap obj or assassinate. Like for relocation orb and star strike they are amazing

[Chumphammer]

Double post

Edited December 5, 2020 by Chumphammer

[JackStreicher]

I did a small conversion a while ago which I feel like sharing

 

Behold my Penumbral Inquiry Mother Palanquin Wagon, short: PIMP Wagon for my Slaughter Queen

 

Edit: I might put one Drakespawn to each side of the Palanquin if it doesn‘t make the model look too crowded

 

Random thought: Morathi is Khain now (kind of), why doesn‘t she bring to life all Avatars of Khaine within a certain range? 🤔

Edited December 5, 2020 by JackStreicher

[jhamslam]

15 hours ago, Frowny said:

100 points for those guys is absolutely nuts. 

The on the board teleport is AMAZING. I've played 2x5 units of tree revenants which have a similar ability and are very strong because of it, even if the rest of their warscroll is incredibly weak in combat and die to a muffled sneeze. Compared to the already very playable tree-reveants, 20 points gets you 

• +4 bodies
• +6 wounds
• +8 attacks at 3+/4+
• +9 ranged shots 
• -1 to hit in melee
• 1 inch of movement (doesn't matter much, but sure).

AND THEN putting them in a much strong book with solid faction abilities. for 20-points that's bananas. They are twice as good in every dimension, with enough firepower to take out lighter units and enough sturdiness (11 wounds on a 5+ save at -1 to hit for 100pts) to be competitive with some generic battleline units. They will also outduel most screen type units if they happen to make their 9 inch charge. 

People who are comparing them to harpies or other deepstrikers are missing how good the on-the-board teleport is. They can cover your backfield objective AND threaten the opponents at the same time, doing the work of 2 units in most lists. Or they can screen in front of your witch elves AND THEN teleport forward to screen out your opponent, all simultaneously. Huge value. Even a single model from a single unit left on the board will pin them on every one of their backfield objectives, while simultaneously preventing them from taking one of yours. 

Ironically, I'm not even sure they are best in daughters of khaine. They don't really need the allegience abilities (although they are certainly helped by them). 

I'm pretty sure I need to buy 3 units (or more likely convert some from some Nighthaunt) to ally into every other order army I have......

So 100 points for basically pinning your opponent in their zone? I mean, theyre not gonna much damage unless theyre within 6 yeah?

[Lucentia]

Pinning your opponent in their zone (or more generally limiting their options on where and when their models can move) is one of the most crucial aspects of competitive AoS where the game is won on objective points not necessarily raw damage output.

[Jacek]

On 12/4/2020 at 7:21 PM, Chumphammer said:

Shadowstalkers confirmed at 100pts

Hi, I'm new.

Can someone tell me where can I find that scroll?

Are those wholly new units? I will be glad for any info about those.

 

Thank you

[Chumphammer]

12 minutes ago, Jacek said:

Hi, I'm new.

Can someone tell me where can I find that scroll?

Are those wholly new units? I will be glad for any info about those.

 

Thank you

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Warcry-Khainite-Shadowstalkers-2020

Download section

New unit for Warcry but warcry units have aos rules. Historically they havent been great units to use in AOS but these ones are 

[Frowny]

36 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

So 100 points for basically pinning your opponent in their zone? I mean, they're not gonna much damage unless theyre within 6 yeah?

That but also so much more.  Also just this thing alone is worth heaps, this is a very strong tactic.

As a slightly absurd example, 1000 points of 10 small units, can deepstrike 20 models stretched out in front of your opponent 9 inches every turn, limiting their movement to never more than 9 inches. You could also attempt charges, and with so many units would likely get a few making their 9 inch charges, limiting their movement still further. 

Also, on the charge their damage is plenty respectable for their cost.  9 with full rerolls (e.g.. Hag Nar) will do on average about 11 wounds to a 4+ save. if they start within 6 inches. Basically the same as 10 witch elves with bucklers, exchanging bladed bucklers bounceback mortals for -1 to hit in melee, and swapping run+charge for the teleport. And they are 20 points cheaper, making them both sturdier and killier per point, at least on the charge with buffs! 

And this is just one of many possible uses. 

Now I'm just pondering how to cram several units into some sort of list. I had been hoping for a more elite type army, since I had wanted to do a lot of conversions to make a whole army themed after them. Like nighthaunt cloaks for everyone. We'll see

 

 

[Silphid]

Lets enjoy them until they revise their points in next GHB2021 to 120 points, where they should probably be...

[swarmofseals]

Even at 120 I'd still strongly consider using them. The main problem now is that they are going to inflate the drop count further, and the containment strategy that @Frowny discussed works much, much better if the drop count is lower.

[Chumphammer]

Anttu went 3 - 0 with this list today at hammertime 6: (He was 3rd out of 54 I think)

 

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Mortal Realm: Chamon

Leaders
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- General
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Hag Queen (100)
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Morathi-Khaine (210)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
The Shadow Queen (390)

Battleline
30 x Witch Aelves (300)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers

Units
10 x Khinerai Lifetakers (160)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Chumphammer

[swarmofseals]

Pretty classic list there. There were also two Shadowhammer Compact builds that did pretty well!

[JackStreicher]

On 12/6/2020 at 11:28 PM, Chumphammer said:

10 x Khinerai Lifetakers (160)

I honestly wonder if 10 are useful? I find it hard to get more than 5 into combat.

What are everyones` experiences with 10   ?

Edited December 8, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Chumphammer]

9 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I honestly wonder if 10 are useful? I find it hard to get more than 5 into combat.

What are everyones` experiences with 10   ?

Wasnt my list, but I asked him about the lifetakers

he said "I think the lifetakers underperformed, but im not sure if they were bad or good tbh"

I think 10 could work in support of Morathi, but tbh for 160pts id rather have a command point and a unit of Shadowstalkers


Btw Azyr updated wit Morathi book updates but not shadowstalkers

[Graywater]

11 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I honestly wonder if 10 are useful? I find it hard to get more than 5 into combat.

What are everyones` experiences with 10   ?

I've enjoyed a unit of 10 lifetakers in a smaller model count mostly snake army. The 10 lifetakers acted as a one turn heat seeking missile, with mind razor and witchbrew, they moved up the board with big morathi to put the hurt on a problem unit, then die. But it gives me one more turn to whittle my opponent's units down with bow snakes and let melee snakes play cleanup duty. Played a couple games this way and I felt they were worth the investment each time by removing or neutering a particularly problematic unit for me. Definitely wouldn't go more than 10 though, and I feel they arent needed in an elf based army. Id just do shadowstalkers and a CP for that style army.

[Mutton]

I'm going to argue that Lifetakers and Heartrenders should come down to 70. Their main advantage was being able to drop in any battle round, but that's been taken away. They're 5 models that die to anything, and they don't really do any damage. You put witchbrew and mindrazor on some lifetakers  on round 3 and they'll perform...moderately. Heartrenders are pretty pathetic, with a statistical average of 1-2 wounds per shooting phase.

I think they're too weak to participate in the battle unless they have ALL the buffs (but why aren't you giving those to a better unit?), and we have enough teleportation in the army that deep striking isn't a huge necessity. They're just not worth their points anymore, especially in our magic/shooting meta.

[Chumphammer]

50 minutes ago, Mutton said:

I'm going to argue that Lifetakers and Heartrenders should come down to 70. Their main advantage was being able to drop in any battle round, but that's been taken away. They're 5 models that die to anything, and they don't really do any damage. You put witchbrew and mindrazor on some lifetakers  on round 3 and they'll perform...moderately. Heartrenders are pretty pathetic, with a statistical average of 1-2 wounds per shooting phase.

I think they're too weak to participate in the battle unless they have ALL the buffs (but why aren't you giving those to a better unit?), and we have enough teleportation in the army that deep striking isn't a huge necessity. They're just not worth their points anymore, especially in our magic/shooting meta.

Ib be happy with 2W or smaller bases. Having them on 40mm with 1W is pretty ****** 

[JackStreicher]

35 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Ib be happy with 2W or smaller bases. Having them on 40mm with 1W is pretty ****** 

I thought that much as well. They‘re too squishy and their base damage is bad (wounding on 4s? C‘mon!)

Also the throwing Spears could go up to D3 damage 

Edited December 9, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Overread]

I do think the new Shadowstalkers are going to functionally replace the Khinerai. Khinerai have always been fragile. Heck even back in the early days of 2.0 the dark elf assassin was the same point cost, similar damage output and yet had a half decent save. Thing is they don't hit hard enough to make worth taking in big numbers to counter their fragility over other options.

 

I'd love to see them become a bit more than they are because they are wonderful models. I don't think reducing the base size is the right approach, however GW could bump them up. Shift them away from a stealth threat unit and turn them into basically the DoK core cavalry style model. So shift them from shadow stepping into the back of the table into a fast moving deploys on-table unit that hits harder and has a better save. Since DoK don't wear heavy armour much and work by basically dodging hits you can boost the save fairly high even if they don't have thick armour or a bulky/heavy armoured look to them. 

Even just a few more wounds would help them out. Right now they can jump out of combat, the problem is its a chance on a dice roll and they can only move 6 inches away. Which means unless the terrain is good for them, they will get counter-charged or hit next turn. Granted that means your opponent got hit and eats up a turn dealing with them; but it makes them a light distraction rather than something that threatens in a big way.