AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Lightbox]

36 minutes ago, Nicholunch said:

I usually do 2 Khemists (because that's all I have). I'd be tempted to take a third but that would only be necessary depending on your army build. I usually drop 1 khemist with my endrinriggers w/ saws and 1 with my Arkanaut unit w/ Skyhooks. You could go with Urbaz and allow them to use their ability on 2 different units per turn. This could be useful if you dropped a unit of Thunderers w/ rifles and a unit of endrinriggers and a khemist. The khemist could buff both in one turn.

And if you did that, you could have your battleline in the back with the 2nd khemist giving buffs to 2 separate Arkanaut units with skyhooks.

Cheers for the advice. I'm thinking 1 or two. I suppose their bettee utilised with deadly skyhooks or aether saws to maximise the damage output of those rather than giving an extra shot to thunderer rifles. Makes sense. As for skyport there's a good chance I might go with a custom one as I want to give them their own backstory and paintjob etc. Though i doubt there's any hard and fast rules against taking named skyport for custom ones, like how DoK and IDK get to choose whichever fits most.

 

2 hours ago, Rachmani said:

In terms of their melee potential you want them to have saws only. But if you know you won't get them all into fighting range anyway you can add a special weapon or two, let them shoot and remove them as first casualties should your target somehow survive your Khemist buffed onslaught.

As Khemists are pretty expensive I'd always take one & maybe field two but only if I have 2 units that need the buff at the same time. 3 or more in 2000 points are complete overkill & you'd be better of with bigger units to buff.

That's fair tbh. I'll probably try them with saws first and see how it goes. They'll probably be used primarily for melee as our only real melee option so probably best not to split their role. 

[Azamar]

7 hours ago, Lightbox said:

Also having looked at endrinriggers their melee attacks do look potentially nice if khemist buffed and I will be wanting a squad of some balloon men personally. Yay or nay on giving them special rifles? I'm not personally sure if any warrant replacing the pistol and saw.

A few months ago I would have said keep the riggers as is, and if you want a mobile weapons platform put the special weapons on the skywardens. Now they’re the same cost, if you wanted a dedicated heavy weapon unit you could feasibly go with either. If you’re planning to get the riggers into combat keep to the saws. 

 

I havent tried them myself, but if you’re taking units larger than 3, then a grapnel hook or two is apparently well worth it. 

1 hour ago, Rachmani said:

Two other things I want to put up for discussion, while we're at it.

1. How do you guys think the Arkanaut Company should be adjusted? Personally I think they're lackluster in the melee department (but appear to be designed as melee-/ranged hybrids) & strangely squishy for dwarfs. 

Purely wishlisting, but I would love to see them tougher and with synergy with the ships: 

4+ save and 7 bravery: they’re dwarves/ duardin after all

skyhook: reduce rend to -1 and range to 18”

volleygun: no change

skypike : increase to wound to 3+

pistols: change to 6”, 1 attack 4+/4+, -1 rend 1 damage

cutters: change to 2 attacks, 4+/3+ no rend 1 damage. 

Opportunistic privateers, change to: if this unit made a charge move, add one to all hit rolls in the following combat phase. If this unit also disembarked from a sky vessel, improve the rend characteristic by one for all melee weapons in the following combat phase. 

Makes them less about sniping characters, and more about descending from their ships and swashbuckling! God knows what that would do to their points cost though. Frankly I would just settle for another battleline choice at this point. 

[Tittliewinks22]

3 hours ago, Rachmani said:

Two other things I want to put up for discussion, while we're at it.

1. How do you guys think the Arkanaut Company should be adjusted? Personally I think they're lackluster in the melee department (but appear to be designed as melee-/ranged hybrids) & strangely squishy for dwarfs. 

2. What's up with the weapon profiles? They're all over the place, often completely detrimental to how they look on the actual models & have like no consistency. I'm looking at you, Skyhooks. 

1) I don't think there is anything wrong with the arkanauts company.  What really needs to happen is giving skyfarers the ability to shoot/melee while on the decks of the ships... If the ship makes a run or charge, the unit inside counts as run/charge as well. (Does not apply to hitched riders)

Also allow ships to run from combat and still shoot. And allow hero abilities such as navigator to be used while embarked.

These ship changes would make the faction feel more mobile which will greatly enhance the lackluster individual profiles on the arkanauts.

2) Agree, light skyhook should likely have a different name because it doesn't have the same "towing" ability that every other skyhook has.  I would call it a harpoon.

[Arkanaut Admiral]

3 hours ago, Rachmani said:

Two other things I want to put up for discussion, while we're at it.

1. How do you guys think the Arkanaut Company should be adjusted? Personally I think they're lackluster in the melee department (but appear to be designed as melee-/ranged hybrids) & strangely squishy for dwarfs. 

2. What's up with the weapon profiles? They're all over the place, often completely detrimental to how they look on the actual models & have like no consistency. I'm looking at you, Skyhooks. 

Good questions.  For 1, I would:

Jack up the rend of their pistols to -1

Give the Skypike Damage 2, putting it on par with similar such weapons like Grand Blades, Gore Glaives etc.

Increase their Bravery to 7

Limit the specials to 1 of each per 10 models

Assuming Khemists now grant +1 to hit & to wound on all weapons, they'll become glass cannons, which is what they should be imo.

As for 2, I agree.  The main weapons of the ships are too short ranged, most of the guns aren't powerful enough, and many of them are a bit useless too.

[stratigo]

13 hours ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

Good questions.  For 1, I would:

Jack up the rend of their pistols to -1

Give the Skypike Damage 2, putting it on par with similar such weapons like Grand Blades, Gore Glaives etc.

Increase their Bravery to 7

Limit the specials to 1 of each per 10 models

Assuming Khemists now grant +1 to hit & to wound on all weapons, they'll become glass cannons, which is what they should be imo.

As for 2, I agree.  The main weapons of the ships are too short ranged, most of the guns aren't powerful enough, and many of them are a bit useless too.

now you're nerfing the only available battleline and khemist.

[Arkanaut Admiral]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

now you're nerfing the only available battleline and khemist.

I should have said too that this theoretical new Khemist ability would be a flat bonus to all of the units weapons.  We were discussing that a few pages back.  

So assuming that these arkanauts are in a squad of ten, and the capt has a volley pistol, that would be

Fifteen 12” 3+/3+/-1 pistol attacks

Eight 3+/3+/- cutter attacks

Six 4+/3+/-1 volley gun attacks

One 3+/2+/-2 D:d3 skyhook attack

Two 3+/3+/-1 D:2 skypike attacks.

It becomes even better if they’re targeting a character, or benefiting from master the skies or settle the grudges etc.   I could live with this sort of damage output.

[Nicholunch]

What are good volley gun tactics? I have a hard time finding value in those equipped on any unit. (Sorry if this was addressed earlier)

 

I feel like every other weapon is mediocre or good. Volley guns just seem like too much of a risk. And when considering replacing the melee weapon for one, or another special weapons for one, I'm unable to find the equivalent in damage output to others.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Nicholunch

[Nick907]

15 hours ago, Nicholunch said:

What are good volley gun tactics? I have a hard time finding value in those equipped on any unit. (Sorry if this was addressed earlier)

The vollygun is great for a battleline unit that you don't intend to augment with the chemist buff. Typically most KO lists will contain more infantry units then can be targeted in a single round by a khemist's  '+1 attack' ability.  A unit of company that will not be targeted by the Khemist is slightly better with the volleygun then with the skyhooks.
On average 3 volleyguns will make 18 shots and score 6 hits and 3 wounds. Against monsters and heroes they will score 9 hits and 4-5 wounds. 3 skyhooks will average roughly 2 wounds per turn with a higher rend, but 4 wounds per turn if you augment them. 

[Cerlin]

I am compelled to ask after reading so many pages here; why are many KO players seemingly so against allies?

I just played a game this week vs Deepkin and got crushed by eels and run and charge  and I thought "this army just needs some meat shields."

I have tried 2 units of Ironbreakers with a runelord, and a unit of 30 Ironbreakers for the discount. Both helped greatly against non-deepstrikers. I am currently contemplating 40 dwarf warriors in various configurations as 1 to 2 turn shields and wounds.

I have also exclusively played Urbaz, but I am going to give some other cities a try.

Mhornar is first place for rerolling shooting and turn one run and charge.

Thryng seems great for rerolling 1s againsg 1 to 3 units for my whole army all game.

Zon looks fun because you get the admirals rerolling for all heroes (1s to hit and wound vs monsters and heroes) and rerolling 1s to wound on charges. The striking first hammer is nice too.

So to reiterate; why so few allies? And what about the other skyports?

[Kramer]

6 minutes ago, Cerlin said:

So to reiterate; why so few allies? And what about the other skyports?

Two many cool things in the book anyway  Not a very experienced player here, but I used 300pts of dispossessed to supplement 1200 pts of KO. I found warriors, like you said, useful as a shieldwall but I'm still trying to get a hit and gun playstyle going and that didn't help. Miners would be perfect as allies, or maybe prosocuters (sadly I don't own the models to try). Thunderers did work better and nice combo with runelord for extra dispel.

Wizard is of course another good one. 

[stratigo]

5 hours ago, Cerlin said:

I am compelled to ask after reading so many pages here; why are many KO players seemingly so against allies?

I just played a game this week vs Deepkin and got crushed by eels and run and charge  and I thought "this army just needs some meat shields."

I have tried 2 units of Ironbreakers with a runelord, and a unit of 30 Ironbreakers for the discount. Both helped greatly against non-deepstrikers. I am currently contemplating 40 dwarf warriors in various configurations as 1 to 2 turn shields and wounds.

I have also exclusively played Urbaz, but I am going to give some other cities a try.

Mhornar is first place for rerolling shooting and turn one run and charge.

Thryng seems great for rerolling 1s againsg 1 to 3 units for my whole army all game.

Zon looks fun because you get the admirals rerolling for all heroes (1s to hit and wound vs monsters and heroes) and rerolling 1s to wound on charges. The striking first hammer is nice too.

So to reiterate; why so few allies? And what about the other skyports?

Plenty of KO players use allies. There just aren't any that make the army work.

 

If you want to use ships, disposessed don't work. They're too slow. And one of the big draws of KO are the ships. People want to play with them.

[Barkanaut]

6 hours ago, stratigo said:

Plenty of KO players use allies. There just aren't any that make the army work.

 

If you want to use ships, disposessed don't work. They're too slow. And one of the big draws of KO are the ships. People want to play with them.

This the whole point of playing KO is the ships and the theme. All of a sudden cutting all of that out and forcing me to use almost an entire other army is dumb. I shouldn't have to do that, but it should be an option. Also the way KO work and are theoretically supposed to play there isn't much other allies that make them work who don't work better in other armies. KO is so strange as it is right now it needs a redesign for 2.0 and possibly new dedicated KO models if they want to make KO melee a thing as allies don't seem to be doing much for us right now. 

Also my KO brothers I have a question. What do you use for storage and transport of the ships? They are kind of unusual models in terms of their size so it can be hard to move them around. 

[Nick907]

Nothing wrong with taking allies, just kind of breaks from the mold since there are so many different potential options. Discussing 'vanilla' KO armies equips you with the same  knowledge you'll need to make informed decisions about allies, and with significantly less effort. 

[stratigo]

KO have very limited ally options. Ironweld give KO nothing. Disposessed give them cheap screens and magic defense, which if you want to run a foot based KO army, you 100 percent require. Fyrslayers give slightly more mobile screening and striking, though they nerfed the combo of smiter and zerkers to make it harder to pull off.

 

And then there is SCE. And they're SCE. Only way to play with magic. Character to buff ships. SCE support KO almost better than KO characters can. THe Khemist is the only one that comes close.

 

But there isn't an army you can build that you can use to beat a good player with a meaner army. It doesn't matter what you toss in, someone with skill playing a tournament nurgle army, or just deepkin in general since they are the ****** KO army, you will loose 9 times out of ten and the tenth will be dice skew. So there's no point throwing together allies to make your army competitive, because they won't. Put them in if you want, but there's no real pressure to do so to win, because it doesn't help. You're still just playing KO.

[Nicholunch]

On 8/26/2018 at 12:19 PM, Cerlin said:

I am compelled to ask after reading so many pages here; why are many KO players seemingly so against allies?

...

So to reiterate; why so few allies? And what about the other skyports?

I think most people here are playing to the narrative that taking Allies is not the Duardin way. I think that if you find a hole in your strategy, then there are numerous options with allies to fill that void. Like afore mentioned: meat shields, tunneling support, artillery, etc. And by all means, I love the narrative. So kudos to those holding to it and those that break the mold with their own narrative!

I personally find that 400 pts is not a whole lot to take a  sizable force to do more than just one simple thing for you. People of other factions often take a big beefy hero just under 400 points, spell casters where they don't have good options, or a hero that buffs a general allegiance over a specific one. 

I've taken a unit of Bezerkers and a Smiter to add additional offense to the alpha strike, or an option to take objectives, etc. I find that the most useful with what I have available to me.

Regarding sky ports, I think Sigmar promotes maximizing on one strategy. Whichever strategy that is, I think there are sky ports that can assist with any of them. My reasons for the different ports are:

Nar: This is anti-magic spam-a-lot!
Zilfin: Deep striking alpha. 
Zon: Extra chance for the epic charge. Killing Nagash/Cauldron/Drake/etc. out of the gate will cripple an army. Going for that hero/monster also gives you buffs!
Urbaz: Double my khemist abilities. I was planning for this one to do Riggers and Thunderers and Company in an Ironclad w/ 1 Khemist. Then do 2 units of skyhook Company in the back w/ 1 khemist. The Khemists can buff 2 units a turn.
Mhornar: In your face shooting. Party bus with the general works great for the general's posse getting to reroll hits.
Thryng: Really good shooting buff if I get 2 or 3 on the roll.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Nicholunch

[BWG Cannonball]

So one thing I think we're really good at (even with the slight nerf in 2.0) is priority target elimination.  The key I've found is to figure out how to manage threat priority and surgically rip out the key pieces of an enemy force.  For me, I do that through as much ranged combat as possible with Endrinriggers being a mobile screen.

 

Also with AoS, I've found a lot of people put a lot of focus on a couple models.  When you take those models out, they tend to panic because the plan is changed.  We do well with causing enemy panic.

[Nicholunch]

@Cannonball Agreed! I usually run a 9 model unit of riggers but what do you find is helpful if playing just a mobile screen to delay access to your shooters? I've toyed with doing x2 6 model units of riggers.

Yeah, I usually see people starting to make mistakes when they try to then play at keeping their special models from being shot down.

[Nick907]

We can potentially: repair skyvessals at a rapid rate, focus fire with every unit in our force, alpha strike, move around the board quickly, charge over enemy defenses to kill important targets

[Lightbox]

How do people find frigates and gunhaulers? I know some folks just prefer ironclads at 2000 but I feel like an ironclad might not be feasible at 1000 point games or such. I mean we're all in this for the boats really so I'd love to know how they hold up. The guns do feel a bit unreliable for their points alas D: but at least frigates and ironclads get to carry happy chappies around.

Still trying to get an idea of what things work well in the armies and what I want for conversion fun.

[stratigo]

17 hours ago, BWG Cannonball said:

So one thing I think we're really good at (even with the slight nerf in 2.0) is priority target elimination.  The key I've found is to figure out how to manage threat priority and surgically rip out the key pieces of an enemy force.  For me, I do that through as much ranged combat as possible with Endrinriggers being a mobile screen.

 

Also with AoS, I've found a lot of people put a lot of focus on a couple models.  When you take those models out, they tend to panic because the plan is changed.  We do well with causing enemy panic.

 

Too many armies are really good at priority target protection now though, and better at protecting their key models than KO are at killing them.

[Nicholunch]

7 hours ago, stratigo said:

 

Too many armies are really good at priority target protection now though, and better at protecting their key models than KO are at killing them.

That's why it's essential we go turn 1. We shoot before they get a chance to buff and protect.

Our army isn't going to be the perfect aggressor to every other army, but most armies need that first round of buffs to keep their main units alive.

[Dez]

I've got my Admiral's Hat back on again, time to do a practical test on all the reading and theorycrafting I've done the past week.

[GrandAdmiralAutumn]

Hi guys,

I'm headed to a pretty big 2k GT (70) and an having trouble deciding on a list. I have 4 that I'm currently wondering about, and was hoping I could get some input

1st is a 1 drop, objective grabbing list, with some CC, but I think it lacks damage output

Mohrnar

Khemist                                                              Admiral.                                                              Iron Sky Squadron.                                       40 skyhook Arkanauts.                              10 volley gun Arkanauts X2.                   2 frigates.                                                           9 Endrinriggers

Then I have a massive firepower list, but it lacks maneuverability and CC

Mhornar

Khemist.                                                             Endrinmaster.                                                 Lord Ordinator.                                              40 skyhook Arkanauts.                              10 volley gun Arkanauts X2.                   Ironclad x2

Then a combat focussed list, but I'm not sure if the endrinriggers will survive enough

Urbaz

Khemist.                                                          Brokk Grungsson.                                          40 skyhook Arkanauts.                               10 volley gun Arkanauts X2.                   6 endrinriggers X2                                       Knight Azyros

And finally a bit of a clown car, not sure if idoneth are popular right now, but this is the only list I see beating them.

Zilfin

Khemist.                                                              Khemist. (In ironclad)                                  40 skyhook Arkanauts.                              10 volley gun Arkanauts X2.                   20 thunderers (in ironclad).                     Ironclad (with tp engines).                      Knight Azyros (tp's with ironclad)

I dunno, which one do you think I should take?

Edited August 29, 2018 by GrandAdmiralAutumn

[Beliman]

19 hours ago, Nicholunch said:

That's why it's essential we go turn 1. We shoot before they get a chance to buff and protect.

Our army isn't going to be the perfect aggressor to every other army, but most armies need that first round of buffs to keep their main units alive.

I'm starting to hate that. Ending the games in turn 2 or 3 is one of the worst designs. You aim for the head, if you don't hit hard, the match is 80% done. It's one of the main things that I really don't like about the army, I want to have options.

[Nicholunch]

7 hours ago, Beliman said:

I'm starting to hate that. Ending the games in turn 2 or 3 is one of the worst designs. You aim for the head, if you don't hit hard, the match is 80% done. It's one of the main things that I really don't like about the army, I want to have options.

I understand. That's how I felt with the old dwarves in 8th Ed. They were always a gunline. But I'm so impatient, I'd be charging by turn 2 or 3 cuz I just couldn't wait any longer. 

I think KO match up to my instinctive play style and aesthetic. But I understand that's not everyone's play style and would like more options.