AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Lucur]

Also, a 6 rolled for Retributors doesn't do regular damage, so:

MW: 7×1/6×2 = 2,33

Attacks: 7×1/2×2/3×2/3×2 = 3,11

Starsoul: 2×2/3×2+2×1÷6×3 = 3,66

Sum: 9,1

Damage per point: 0,041

Evocators:

Staves: 16×2/3×2/3×1/2×2 = 7,11

Jazzhands: 10×1/2 = 5

Sum: 12,11

Damage per point: 0,061

Beating the dead horse Evos are wizards and all... let's hope Retributors drop by 40pts, get a buff to their save or whatever could redeem them.

 

Edit: does the Celestial Vindicator ca work on the mounts as well? I'd assume so, just want to doublecheck with no tome at hand.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Lucur

[PJetski]

I compared squads of 10, not squads of 5. The discussion was about a block of 20x Sequitors compared to Retributors.

I like the idea of giving Paladins a 3+ save (or some way to ignore mortal wounds?) but unfortunately thats not the kind of change they make in the generals handbook. GHB is almost exclusively about changing points, role, and squad sizes.

Personally this is what I would like to see for Stormcast in GHB19:

Sacrosanct

• Celestar Ballista - 100 > 120
• Lord-Ordinator - 140 > 120
• Evocators - 200 > 220
• Aventis Firestrike - 360 > 300
• Lord-Arcanum - 180 > 140
• Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon - 340 > 280
• Lord-Exorcist - 140 > 120
• Castigators - 80 > 60/200, Max 18 > 12
• Celestian Vortex - 40 > 20
• Dais Arcanum - 40 > 20

Extremis Chamber

• Concussors - 260 > 220 
• Desolators - 220 > 200
• Fulminators - 240 > 220
• Tempestors - 220 > 180
• Lord-Celestant on Dracoth - 220 > 200
• Lord-Celestant on Stardrake - 560 > 480
• Drakesworn Templar - 460 > 400
• Lightning Echelon - 130 > 100
• Thunderwave Echelon - 100 > 60
• Drakesworn Temple - 140 > 100

Vanguard Chamber

• Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows - 180 > 200
• Vanguard Angelos Conclave - 160 > 120
• Vanguard Justicar Conclave - 120 > 100
• Vanguard-Hunters - Battleline in a Stormcast Eternals army
• Vanguard-Palladors - Battleline if your general is a Lord-Aquilor

Strike Chamber

• Gavriel Sureheart - 100 > 140
• Celestant-Prime - 340 > 280
• Knight-Questor - 100 > 80
• Vandus Hammerhand - 280 > 240
• Liberators - 100 > 90, Max 30 > 20, Max regiment discount removed
• Judicators - 160 > 140
• Decimators - 200 > 160
• Protectors - 200 > 160
• Retributors - 220 > 180
• Prosecutors - 100 > 80, Battleline in Stormcast Eternal army
• Lords of the Storm - 140 > 100
• Thunderhead Brotherhood - 160 > 100
• Hammerstrike Force - 120 > 100
• Vanguard Wing - 140 > 120
• Devastation Brotherhood - 110 > 100
• Skyborne Slayers - 190 > 160

It's mostly point cost reductions, but that's because many of our units are really underperforming and battalions are massively overpriced for the units they need and the bonuses they provide.

[Requizen]

No way our whole book gets aggressive cuts like that. The cynical side of me says they'll increase the things people are complaining about (Evocators and Gav highly likely, possibly Ballistas, Sequitors and Longstrikes), and reduce the cost of things that aren't selling well (Vanguard, Lord Exorcist). Though I agree with some of your assessment, I doubt Libs/Judis get touched at all, or Extremis, or Battalions. Maybe they push down the Tauralon cost to shift those boxes, but we'll see. 

I'd be really happy with a huge shakeup that allows us to compete with S-Tier armies without resorting to gimmicks, but my gut tells me that GW is mostly overall happy with SCE right now.

[PJetski]

I don't expect them to do anything but a nerf to Evocators, but I hope for much more. Our Stormhost rules are mostly trash, battalions are trash, and 90% of our warscrolls are a little too weak for their costs.

It would be super weird if they nerfed Fyreslayers so close after their release, so I think 120 for 5 Hearthguard is probably what they think is an acceptable balancing point. With that framework it's not unreasonable to see that Stormcast are overpriced for what they do.

[Requizen]

2 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I don't expect them to do anything but a nerf to Evocators, but I hope for much more. Our Stormhost rules are mostly trash, battalions are trash, and 90% of our warscrolls are a little too weak for their costs.

It would be super weird if they nerfed Fyreslayers so close after their release, so I think 120 for 5 Hearthguard is probably what they think is an acceptable balancing point. With that framework it's not unreasonable to see that Stormcast are overpriced for what they do.

It's always a possibility, I'm just cynical

Word on the street was that when writing Skaven/FEC, they came up with a new algorithm for figuring out point costs based on damage/survivability/buffs/etc, and those two and Battletomes after were balanced around it. It's possible that Gitz and previous (including us) might get revamped with that point algorithm, so maybe the book is a huge shakeup, who knows?

Even if that were so, however, I doubt they redo Battleline Ifs, though they really should for variety more than anything else.

[Mikosan]

It makes sense to me that with the abundance of character/unit options SCE have, they should have a whole slew of battleline if options.  I mean the range of models is huge, opening up the army build options within the book can only lead to selling more models in my opinion.

[PJetski]

Conditional battleline is a way to give units a niche without having to further reduce their point cost or update their rules

[jhamslam]

49 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I don't expect them to do anything but a nerf to Evocators, but I hope for much more. Our Stormhost rules are mostly trash, battalions are trash, and 90% of our warscrolls are a little too weak for their costs.

It would be super weird if they nerfed Fyreslayers so close after their release, so I think 120 for 5 Hearthguard is probably what they think is an acceptable balancing point. With that framework it's not unreasonable to see that Stormcast are overpriced for what they do.

Honestly given how dumb the new tomes get id rather they dont touch evocators.

They didnt even touch DoK last time around but this time seeing how long people have had to whine about DoK and Evocators, they might.

But as usual gotta sell those terrorgheists and skaven! so FEC and Skaven points changes wont even be a thing. Although im hoping for some changes there

[jhamslam]

Also, its incredible to me that Skaven verminlords with 13 wounds and a 5+ FNP are like 260, while we get Vandus at 280

[Requizen]

51 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

Honestly given how dumb the new tomes get id rather they dont touch evocators.

They didnt even touch DoK last time around but this time seeing how long people have had to whine about DoK and Evocators, they might.

But as usual gotta sell those terrorgheists and skaven! so FEC and Skaven points changes wont even be a thing. Although im hoping for some changes there

Skaven and FEC not getting point changes has nothing to do with them trying to shift boxes and everything to do with editing/printing timeframes. They won't get changed because by the time the feedback was coming, GHB was already on the way to the printers. Unless they get Errata'd when the book drops, don't expect any changes there.

If you notice, DoK was released around a similar time as GHB18, which is likely why there were no changes there either.

Honestly I would not be annoyed if they did a "Beta Points" PDF 6 months after each GHB so they could release new points without requiring a new book purchase, but I think that's unlikely.

[jhamslam]

3 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Skaven and FEC not getting point changes has nothing to do with them trying to shift boxes and everything to do with editing/printing timeframes. They won't get changed because by the time the feedback was coming, GHB was already on the way to the printers. Unless they get Errata'd when the book drops, don't expect any changes there.

If you notice, DoK was released around a similar time as GHB18, which is likely why there were no changes there either.

Honestly I would not be annoyed if they did a "Beta Points" PDF 6 months after each GHB so they could release new points without requiring a new book purchase, but I think that's unlikely.

Thats whats the dumb part about it. I think on the yearly survey thing people mostly said they wanted 6 months points changes to keep up with the meta. Letting broken non interactive stuff stay in the game like that for a year, just seems silly.

[kuroyume]

5 hours ago, PJetski said:

I compared squads of 10, not squads of 5. The discussion was about a block of 20x Sequitors compared to Retributors.

I like the idea of giving Paladins a 3+ save (or some way to ignore mortal wounds?) but unfortunately thats not the kind of change they make in the generals handbook. GHB is almost exclusively about changing points, role, and squad sizes.

Personally this is what I would like to see for Stormcast in GHB19:

Sacrosanct

• Celestar Ballista - 100 > 120
• Lord-Ordinator - 140 > 120
• Evocators - 200 > 220
• Aventis Firestrike - 360 > 300
• Lord-Arcanum - 180 > 140
• Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon - 340 > 280
• Lord-Exorcist - 140 > 120
• Castigators - 80 > 60/200, Max 18 > 12
• Celestian Vortex - 40 > 20
• Dais Arcanum - 40 > 20

Extremis Chamber

• Concussors - 260 > 220 
• Desolators - 220 > 200
• Fulminators - 240 > 220
• Tempestors - 220 > 180
• Lord-Celestant on Dracoth - 220 > 200
• Lord-Celestant on Stardrake - 560 > 480
• Drakesworn Templar - 460 > 400
• Lightning Echelon - 130 > 100
• Thunderwave Echelon - 100 > 60
• Drakesworn Temple - 140 > 100

Vanguard Chamber

• Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows - 180 > 200
• Vanguard Angelos Conclave - 160 > 120
• Vanguard Justicar Conclave - 120 > 100
• Vanguard-Hunters - Battleline in a Stormcast Eternals army
• Vanguard-Palladors - Battleline if your general is a Lord-Aquilor

Strike Chamber

• Gavriel Sureheart - 100 > 140
• Celestant-Prime - 340 > 280
• Knight-Questor - 100 > 80
• Vandus Hammerhand - 280 > 240
• Liberators - 100 > 90, Max 30 > 20, Max regiment discount removed
• Judicators - 160 > 140
• Decimators - 200 > 160
• Protectors - 200 > 160
• Retributors - 220 > 180
• Prosecutors - 100 > 80, Battleline in Stormcast Eternal army
• Lords of the Storm - 140 > 100
• Thunderhead Brotherhood - 160 > 100
• Hammerstrike Force - 120 > 100
• Vanguard Wing - 140 > 120
• Devastation Brotherhood - 110 > 100
• Skyborne Slayers - 190 > 160

It's mostly point cost reductions, but that's because many of our units are really underperforming and battalions are massively overpriced for the units they need and the bonuses they provide.

This is  interesting, I just came into possession of an (extremely blurry) supposed leak of changes (Listing all the allegiances, not SCE only) and a lot of what is listed here matches what little I can make out on that. Makes me think the "leak" might be more of a wishlist than a leak.

Edited June 5, 2019 by kuroyume

[Requizen]

34 minutes ago, kuroyume said:

This is  interesting, I just came into possession of an (extremely blurry) supposed leak of changes (Listing all the allegiances, not SCE only) and a lot of what is listed here matches what little I can make out on that. Makes me think the "leak" might be more of a wishlist than a leak.

It was posted in the rumor thread, those aren't legit points but feedback from players. There's a chance GW uses some of them but don't take it as anything real.

[Talunus]

Maybe this is why they are releasing the matches points as a pamphlet with the GHB instead of being in the book itself, so they can release updated points as new tomes and armies are produced.

[ledha]

those point change + the reduction cost of the skyborne slayers would make me laugh a lot 

[JaffaBones]

I am baffled about something. It seems like barley someone noticed how much the mount trait "Storm-Winged" of the Stardrake got buffed up, since I barely see it picked. It used to be D3 in the movement phase and now it's "every time it moves", this includes charge and pile-ins. That's quite a few extra mortal wounds which can add up. Why do people keep picking different  traits? 

Compare it with the Hydroxycloak artefact, which used to be basically the same ability (on 3+ though), they nerfed it to "normal move" in the faq. Storme-Winged is still just move.

[Mark Williams]

43 minutes ago, JaffaBones said:

I am baffled about something. It seems like barley someone noticed how much the mount trait "Storm-Winged" of the Stardrake got buffed up, since I barely see it picked. It used to be D3 in the movement phase and now it's "every time it moves", this includes charge and pile-ins. That's quite a few extra mortal wounds which can add up. Why do people keep picking different  traits? 

Compare it with the Hydroxycloak artefact, which used to be basically the same ability (on 3+ though), they nerfed it to "normal move" in the faq. Storme-Winged is still just move.

I suspect people aren't using it because it seems suspicious, and might lead to arguments on the table. Compared to other mount traits, it has the potential to pour out mortal wounds multiple times  in a single turn, and in your opponents turn. It would make that mount trait about 50 times more useful than any other. I wouldn't put it past GW to actually let stuff like this go, but personally I wouldn't feel comfortable using this against people, even in a tournament setting. Regardless of how justified you might feel it is (ie other armies have BS, so we should too), it feels like rules twisting to me, and I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

Having said that, I agree 100% with how it's worded that it seems you can fire it off in the movement, assault, and pile in phases, and in your opponent's combat phase during pile in as well. You might have to be REAL pedantic about explaining to your opponent what's happening and why... but I'd personally be fine with someone doing it to me as long as there's no FAQ stopping it. I just wouldn't use it myself.

[JaffaBones]

5 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

I suspect people aren't using it because it seems suspicious, and might lead to arguments on the table. Compared to other mount traits, it has the potential to pour out mortal wounds multiple times  in a single turn, and in your opponents turn. It would make that mount trait about 50 times more useful than any other. I wouldn't put it past GW to actually let stuff like this go, but personally I wouldn't feel comfortable using this against people, even in a tournament setting. Regardless of how justified you might feel it is (ie other armies have BS, so we should too), it feels like rules twisting to me, and I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

Having said that, I agree 100% with how it's worded that it seems you can fire it off in the movement, assault, and pile in phases, and in your opponent's combat phase during pile in as well. You might have to be REAL pedantic about explaining to your opponent what's happening and why... but I'd personally be fine with someone doing it to me as long as there's no FAQ stopping it. I just wouldn't use it myself.

I agree, it's 50x more useful than the other traits. I would think it's twisting the rules too, if it wasn't for the fact that it specifically used to be movement phase only and it got buffed up in the latest tome. And I also think you feel that way, because it is not common knowledge. Once it is, it'll be ok. And to be honest ... 560 points is not cheap it's one of the most expensive models in the game, this is included.

Another example: I used to wonder why Dracolines are so overcrosted with 300p (specially compared to the Footsies, regardless the movement and what else) until I realised that the points include the "pride-leader -tax" and your essentially are paying for 2+/3+ panthers-of-death.

[jhamslam]

2 minutes ago, JaffaBones said:

I agree, it's 50x more useful than the other traits. I would think it's twisting the rules too, if it wasn't for the fact that it specifically used to be movement phase only and it got buffed up in the latest tome. And I also think you feel that way, because it is not common knowledge. Once it is, it'll be ok. And to be honest ... 560 points is not cheap it's one of the most expensive models in the game, this is included.

Another example: I used to wonder why Dracolines are so overcrosted with 300p (specially compared to the Footsies, regardless the movement and what else) until I realised that the points include the "pride-leader -tax" and your essentially are paying for 2+/3+ panthers-of-death.

id be happy to see stardrake reduced in points to be more in line with the abhorrant ghoul king on terrorgheist. Id suspect that storm winged rule might need changing tho

[armisael]

44 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

id be happy to see stardrake reduced in points to be more in line with the abhorrant ghoul king on terrorgheist. Id suspect that storm winged rule might need changing tho

To be honest, I think that profile of Stardrake need to be changed. Its attack profile is very weak compared to other monster.

[Lucur]

The issue is we don't typically see changes to battletomes in the GHB, just points. That makes it unlikely the Stardrake gets any buffs. That said, SCE sorely lack any rend -2, a Stardrake would be as good a place to start as any.

[JaffaBones]

 

5 hours ago, armisael said:

To be honest, I think that profile of Stardrake need to be changed. Its attack profile is very weak compared to other monster.

This is why I think "Storm-Winged" mount trait is a must. You'll get at least 1xD3 (pile-in) and sometimes at least 3x D3 MW off on the target on top of everything else, when sending that gorgeous dragon into combat (movement, charge, pile-in).

[Roark]

Hey guys, question about the Stardrake miniature: Are those big blocky shoulder plates optional? As in, the miniature is properly sculpted underneath?

[JaffaBones]

 

34 minutes ago, Roark said:

Hey guys, question about the Stardrake miniature: Are those big blocky shoulder plates optional? As in, the miniature is properly sculpted underneath?

Not optional unfortunately, you have holes underneath

[Requizen]

Tried this variation of my Anvilstrike out last night:

Anvils

Incantor (General, Halo)
Veritant (Translocation)
Azyros (Artifact)
Heraldor

Libs
Libs
Libs

Evos x10
Longstrikes x9
Hurricanes x3
Aetherwings
Aetherwings
Aetherwings

1990/2000

Initially, I thought losing the 5 man Evo unit would hurt a lot, and that 3 Hurricanes wouldn't do too much. But it turns out, 3 units of Aetherwings can just shut down basically an entire board's worth of movement/charging for 150 points, and that's pretty darn valuable. The Hurricanes didn't perform too bad, just weight of dice and averaging out 7-8 saves, so they're fine, but the ability to spread out the Aetherwing countercharge instead of having to huddle around just the Longstrikes makes them extremely worth their points. 

This version feels much more controlling than before, even without the potential extra damage from the second Evo unit. It just feels like playing mono-Blue control in MtG:

"Can I charge?"
No, I have birds.
"Can I buff with my Hero?"
No, I remove them.
"Can I at least move?"
You can move wherever I'm not blocking with birds or Liberators.