AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Trayanee]

1 hour ago, Erdemo86 said:

I wouldnt say that they got nerfed. I would say they got a major buff. All of the other Army will get that unmodified 6s and wholly within description sooner or later.

1. Scions of the Storm is now very usefull.

2. Sequitors are one of the Best and strongest Battleline units out there.

3. For 400  points you can field 4 Balistas which you can drop in 18“ Range.

4. The Stormhost Abilitys are not bad, maybe better than staunch defender, but we will see.

5. Being able to drop half of your army in 9“ Range whenever you want is very powerfull.( and getting -1 hit debuff that turn)

6. The Lord Incantor is very good for his points. 

7. Battalion were bad before and are bad now, vanguard wing got nerfed thru errata before battletome.

8. The Comet Endless Spell is very good.

Combine that everything in one list and i think it will be a top tier list. Think about something like this:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Lord-Castellant (100) + gryph hound
Knight-Incantor (140)
Lord-Arkanum(180)
20 x Sequitors (400)
4 x Fulminators (480)
5 x Sequitors (120)
5 x Sequitors (120)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Comet (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119

 

 or hammers of Sigmar with this:
Round about 160 wounds. And if a unit of Sequitors dies on 5+ they are back. All with a 6+ Ward Save.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

Leaders
Lord-Castellant (100)
Knight-Incantor (140)
Lord-Arkanum (180)

Battleline

Units
20 x Sequitors (400)
20 x Sequitors (400)
20 x Sequitors (400)

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 159
 

All new units in your lists? Yes, you cant nerf just released stuff but everything old got nerfed or at least surpassed by strictly better new units. It is really disappointing. 

[Carnelian]

43 minutes ago, Bradipo322 said:

I've seen the whole rules-part of the new battletome.

Barring a few minor buffs everything has been nerfed:

• Lord-Celestant (on foot) to use his command ability has to stand near an enemy unit (3") and the +1 to hit last only for 1 combat phase (this is a common theme)
• Vandus Hammerhand's command ability only lasts 1 turn and works only for units wholly within 12"
• Gavriel Sureheart's starbound blade is now 3+ 3+ instead of 3+ 2+ and his command ability affects units wholly within 12"
• Neave Blacktalon no longer generates extra attacks
• Two Lord-Castellants cant have the same target in a single hero phase for their lantern
• Lord-Relictor (and other priests) can't pray two times in the same hero phase, and both his preyers (healing storm and lighting storm) now have to target someone wholly within 12"
• Lord-Ordinator no longer lets you shoot twice and his command ability now is just a battleshock immunity for units wholly within 18"
• Knight-Heraldor onward to glory now target a unit wholly within 12" and his thunderblast is now targeting a terrain feature wholly within 18" and has his range fixed at 3"
• Gryph-Hounds has changed a lot, loyal companion now has a range of 6" and works also for Lord-Veritant, warning cry now is activated by the setup of enemy reserve units within 10" of Gryph-Hounds and lets friendly Stormcasts wholly within 9" shoot at the unit that has been setup and this can be done only once per phase
• Retributors blast to ashes and other similar abilities now triggers only on unmodified rolls
• All the warscroll battalions have now only one ability and some are just useless (lord of the strom now costs 140 ponts and his ability lets you get 1 CP at the start of your turn on a roll of 4+, but if you ditch the battalion and do not spend the points on other things you are guaranteed 2 CP instead of 1 and an half)

I expected some buffs, not this number of nerfs.

In this edition Stormcast are CP hungry, battalions are just overpriced traps (do not pick them for the +1 CP) and a lot of the old models/units are just weaker.

The Lord celestant and Sureheart got buffed in my opinion since they can now use their command abilities on the turn that they arrive plus they can now arrive guaranteed when you want them to

The gryphhounds got a huge buff being almost 20 points cheaper per griff

The retributors not going down in points is disappointing but then again going off on unmodified sixes means they can't be effectively debuffed either 

[DanielFM]

51 minutes ago, Bradipo322 said:

I've seen the whole rules-part of the new battletome.

Barring a few minor buffs everything has been nerfed:

• Lord-Celestant (on foot) to use his command ability has to stand near an enemy unit (3") and the +1 to hit last only for 1 combat phase (this is a common theme)
• Vandus Hammerhand's command ability only lasts 1 turn and works only for units wholly within 12"
• Gavriel Sureheart's starbound blade is now 3+ 3+ instead of 3+ 2+ and his command ability affects units wholly within 12"
• Neave Blacktalon no longer generates extra attacks
• Two Lord-Castellants cant have the same target in a single hero phase for their lantern
• Lord-Relictor (and other priests) can't pray two times in the same hero phase, and both his preyers (healing storm and lighting storm) now have to target someone wholly within 12"
• Lord-Ordinator no longer lets you shoot twice and his command ability now is just a battleshock immunity for units wholly within 18"
• Knight-Heraldor onward to glory now target a unit wholly within 12" and his thunderblast is now targeting a terrain feature wholly within 18" and has his range fixed at 3"
• Gryph-Hounds has changed a lot, loyal companion now has a range of 6" and works also for Lord-Veritant, warning cry now is activated by the setup of enemy reserve units within 10" of Gryph-Hounds and lets friendly Stormcasts wholly within 9" shoot at the unit that has been setup and this can be done only once per phase
• Retributors blast to ashes and other similar abilities now triggers only on unmodified rolls
• All the warscroll battalions have now only one ability and some are just useless (lord of the strom now costs 140 ponts and his ability lets you get 1 CP at the start of your turn on a roll of 4+, but if you ditch the battalion and do not spend the points on other things you are guaranteed 2 CP instead of 1 and an half)

I expected some buffs, not this number of nerfs.

In this edition Stormcast are CP hungry, battalions are just overpriced traps (do not pick them for the +1 CP) and a lot of the old models/units are just weaker.

Some of those aren't even nerfs, or you missed accompanying buffs. For example, Gryph-Hounds have been buffed. No more dice shenaningans: they will always dart back enough to get out of combat, you will always know a unit is in range of the warning cry to shoot at the incoming enemies. Another example, Gavriel uses his CA in the charge phase, so he can drop from Scions and buff charges, while he couldn't before.

Some of those minor buffs you mentioned (just from memory):

-Reroll charges from Vexillor is now "wholy within 18" instead of 12.  For small units, that's a net gain in bubble range.

-+1 to hit from Drakesworn bow is now for every phase, not just combat. Dracothian Guard can hit 3+ with their Lightning Breath (and Crossbows if Tempestors!) then hit better in CC (even if the new "unmodified 6s" removes the synergy with Concussor hammers).

-Crossbow Judicators get +1 shot.

-Tempestors to-hit debuff is an auto-bubble.

-Hurricane Raptors to-charge debuff is an auto-bubble.

-While it can't be improved, Longstrikes Headshot is not affected by LoS.

-Castellant and Veritant get a free Gryph-hound

-Hunters also benefit from the -1 to-be-hit the turn they arrive

 

Edited July 4, 2018 by DanielFM
Missing text

[GeneralZero]

3 minutes ago, Trayanee said:

All new units in your lists? Yes, you cant nerf just released stuff but everything old got nerfed or at least surpassed by strictly better new units. It is really disappointing. 

Not surprising when you know that GW has to sell a whole new range of stormcast plastic!

[azmarus]

somebody know stats dracoline cavalery and foot lord arcanum ?

[Erdemo86]

Can you drop Gavriel with Scions and acitvate his command ability? If yes i think he will be an auto pick.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Erdemo86

[Kadanga]

1 minute ago, Erdemo86 said:

Can you drop Gavriel with Scions and acitvate his command ability? If yes i think he will be an auto pick.

Yes, it is triggered in the charge phase.

[Erdemo86]

3 minutes ago, Kadanga said:

Yes, it is triggered in the charge phase.

That changes alot. +3 to charge means we only need a charge roll of 6. gavriel + coggs charge of 4. Reminds me a bit of Azyros + Warrior Brotherhood Meta.

[DanielFM]

5 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

Can you drop Gavriel with Scions and acitvate his command ability? If yes i think he will be an auto pick.

Is he better than an automatic aura of charge rerolls from a Vexillor+bonus ability, though? 

 

[Kadanga]

1 minute ago, DanielFM said:

Is he better than an automatic aura of charge rerolls from a Vexillor+bonus ability, though? 

 

I think I recall from my Ork days that a 9" charge is around ~80%  success if you have rerolls. 
A quick guess for a 6" charge should be around ~53%

Why do we have a standard that gives rerolls to run and charge when Vexiliors give rerolls to charge innate?

[ledha]

31 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

 

-Tempestors to-hit debuff is an auto-bubble.

-Hurricane Raptors to-charge debuff is an auto-bubble.

 

 

Tempestor only debuff shooting units now and the debuff of the raptor is now -1 to charge instead of -3

 

[ledha]

5 minutes ago, Kadanga said:

 

Why do we have a standard that gives rerolls to run and charge when Vexiliors give rerolls to charge innate?

cause vexilior make reroll the whole roll, while the standard can make you reroll only one dice. When you make a 6 and 2 but need a 9, rerolling only the 2 is better. It give you the choice

So it make the vexxilior the ultimate charge buff as well as a run buff

Edited July 4, 2018 by ledha

[Kadanga]

Just now, ledha said:

cause vexilior make reroll the whole roll, while the standard can make you reroll only one dice. When you make a 6 and 2 but need a 9, rerolling only the 2 is better.

So it make the vexxilior the ultimate charge buff as well as a run buff

Thanks for clearing that up!

[Tiriom]

1 hour ago, Bradipo322 said:

I've seen the whole rules-part of the new battletome.

Barring a few minor buffs everything has been nerfed 

I’m no expert or anything but don’t you feel like many of the changes you listed are changes to the game overall and not just SCE. I mean look at all of them wholisticly?  There’s a common theme I think we will see going forward. 

 

Id be very surprised if these changes are specific to us. Also I think most of the new and old stuff looks great..... seems like lots of new options to play with and more coming. I mean you basically listed the same change a bunch of times but for different units. 

Edited July 4, 2018 by Tiriom

[Bradipo322]

21 minutes ago, Carnelian said:

The Lord celestant and Sureheart got buffed in my opinion since they can now use their command abilities on the turn that they arrive plus they can now arrive guaranteed when you want them to.

Lord-Celestant needs to be close to an enemy and that's a nerf, Sureheart ability is somewhat usable now but the -1 to wound on a 3 attacks character is really bad, he will never kill anything. And to use command abilities you need CPs, you will need a ot of them while other factions won't (just look at the "bad"
 Wight King that gives +1 attacks to a unit that's 18" from him for a whole turn), to get the effect of the "old" Lord-Celestant you need 2 CPs and to be 3" away from an enemy, that's a nerf in my book.

21 minutes ago, Carnelian said:

The gryphhounds got a huge buff being almost 20 points cheaper per griff.

Gryph-Hound now just play very differently, that's neither a buff nor a nerf, but now you have to pick a minimum of 6 to have a unit and that's costly for a unit that have no save and that was used only for his warning cry.

 

30 minutes ago, Carnelian said:

The retributors not going down in points is disappointing but then again going off on unmodified sixes means they can't be effectively debuffed either.

Yes, but this also count as a nerf (the classic Lord-Celestant + Retributors combo is now gone) and buffing them was easier than getting them debuffed.

 

31 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

Some of those aren't even nerfs, or you missed accompanying buffs. For example, Gryph-Hounds have been buffed. No more dice shenaningans: they will always dart back enough to get out of combat, you will always know a unit is in range of the warning cry to shoot at the incoming enemies. Another example, Gavriel uses his CA in the charge phase, so he can drop from Scions and buff charges, while he couldn't before.

Some of those minor buffs you mentioned (just from memory):

-Reroll charges from Vexillor is now "wholy within 18" instead of 12.  For small units, that's a net gain in bubble range.

-+1 to hit from Drakesworn bow is now for every phase, not just combat. Dracothian Guard can hit 3+ with their Lightning Breath (and Crossbows if Tempestors!) then hit better in CC (even if the new "unmodified 6s" removes the synergy with Concussor hammers).

-Crossbow Judicators get +1 shot.

-Tempestors to-hit debuff is an auto-bubble.

-Hurricane Raptors to-charge debuff is an auto-bubble.

-While it can't be improved, Longstrikes Headshot is not affected by LoS.

-Castellant and Veritant get a free Gryph-hound

-Hunters also benefit from the -1 to-be-hit the turn they arrive

 

But thoose buffs are very minor if you consider the nerfs. Also a buff that you forgot is that non-heroes got a +1 bravery (no more liberators running away from just 1 model lost).

A lot of changes where expected in this edition, like:

• Measures to be "wholly within"
• Unmodified rolls to get a bonus
• The change of the activation timing of some command abilities

But even if you count all of that old Stormcasts got nerfed hard and will play sub-par until all the warscroll are getting reworked.

[Bradipo322]

3 minutes ago, Tiriom said:

I’m no expert or anything but don’t you feel like many of the changes you listed are changes to the game overall and not just SCE. I mean look at all of them wholisticly?  There’s a common theme I think we will see going forward. 

Id be very surprised if these changes are specific to us. Also I think most of the new and old stuff looks great..... seems like lots of new options to play with and more coming 

I expect that everyone will get this treatment, but when? When will "old" (and by old I mean "past edition warscrolls") get rewritten? The new edition arrived and a lot of thing are changed but no warscroll has been updated.

Saturday I'm going to my local GW store to start the new campaign, I will get steamrolled by everyone, I don't whant to win all the games but getting beaten to a pulp just because I will be using the new rules just feels wrong.

[Kadanga]

Just now, Bradipo322 said:

I expect that everyone will get this treatment, but when? When will "old" (and by old I mean "past edition warscrolls") get rewritten? The new edition arrived and a lot of thing are changed but no warscroll has been updated.

Saturday I'm going to my local GW store to start the new campaign, I will get steamrolled by everyone, I don't whant to win all the games but getting beaten to a pulp just because I will be using the new rules just feels wrong.

If you loose because you use the new rules then you have failed to adapt to the new rules. If you think something is really bad, then stop using it instead of lamenting over it. There is a ton of power in the new book and I expect to wreck a lot of face before the rest of the armies catch on. 

[Erdemo86]

For me everything is major buff. To drop my forces where i want and then charge first turn is very powerfull. Remember Warrior Brotherhood won all big tournaments. You can alpha Strike and kill all the stuff that could get dangerous turn 1. i think you underestimate that. Dropping 4 Fulminators,shooting with them and then charge is very op. Also Sequitors are op af. A Unit of 20 costs only 400 points and only the grand weapons do an average damage of 14/15 dmg on a 4+ save target. We will see alot of stormcast inning armys in the next tournamnts.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Erdemo86

[ledha]

On 7/4/2018 at 2:25 PM, Erdemo86 said:

For me everything is major buff. To drop my forces where i want and then charge first turn is very powerfull. Remember Warrior Brotherhood won all big tournaments. You can alpha Strike and kill all the stuff that could get dangerous turn 1. i think you underestimate that. Dropping 4 Fulminators,shooting with them and then charge is very op. Also Sequitors are op af. A Unit of 20 costs only 400 points and only the grand weapons do an average damage of 14/15 dmg on a 4+ save target. We will see alot of stormcast inning armys in the next tournamnts.

warrior brotherhood made you able to drop your whole army directly in contact of the opponent. 

while i love our new alleagieance trait (and sigmar know i was bitching about the old all day long), having at best half of the army coming 9" of the ennemy is far from what the warrior brotherhood was.

However, warrior brotherhood was completely broken and overpowered, so i'm glad we don't have a warrior brotherhoord/vanguard wing 2.0

Edited July 5, 2018 by ledha

[Bradipo322]

5 minutes ago, Kadanga said:

If you loose because you use the new rules then you have failed to adapt to the new rules. If you think something is really bad, then stop using it instead of lamenting over it. There is a ton of power in the new book and I expect to wreck a lot of face before the rest of the armies catch on. 

So it's the old "GIT GOOD" argument? The ton of power in the new book is just in the new models.

But maybe I'm just incapable of winning, maybe I'm just wining because I don't get where Stormcast got stronger.

Please illuminate me, I whant to know what to bring, right now I have:

20 liberators

10 judicators

1 lord-celestant

1 vandus hammerhand / lord-celestant on dracoth

1 gavriel sureheart

1 (3) steelhearts

1 (3) farstriders

1 lord-relictor

5 retributors

I have to bring 750 points and I have no idea on what to bring, all my past lists are now somewhat unusable.

[Kadanga]

25 minutes ago, Bradipo322 said:

So it's the old "GIT GOOD" argument? The ton of power in the new book is just in the new models.

But maybe I'm just incapable of winning, maybe I'm just wining because I don't get where Stormcast got stronger.

Please illuminate me, I whant to know what to bring, right now I have:

20 liberators

10 judicators

1 lord-celestant

1 vandus hammerhand / lord-celestant on dracoth

1 gavriel sureheart

1 (3) steelhearts

1 (3) farstriders

1 lord-relictor

5 retributors

I have to bring 750 points and I have no idea on what to bring, all my past lists are now somewhat unusable.

I was afraid I would come off a little Dark Soulish ?

750 is hard. I mostly play 2000 pts and all my arguments are based in a 1500pt+ perspective. That said:

Stormhost: Anvils of Heldenhammer

Lord-Celestant On Dracoth (220)
- General
- Tempestos Hammer & Thundershield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
10 x Judicators (320)
- Skybolt Bows
- 2x Shockbolt Bows

Total: 740 / 750 (Triumph)

Keep the LCoD near the Judicators, and the Judicators out of melee. Use the Heldenhammer CA on Judicators every turn. Use scions either to position Judicators and LCoD or to place libs on objectives. 

Edited July 4, 2018 by Kadanga

[Kadanga]

23 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

For me everything is major buff. To drop my forces where i want and then charge first turn is very powerfull. Remember Warrior Brotherhood won all big tournaments. You can alpha Strike and kill all the stuff that could get dangerous turn 1. i think you underestimate that. Dropping 4 Fulminators,shooting with them and then charge is very op. Also Sequitors are op af. A Unit of 20 costs only 400 points and only the grand weapons do an average damage of 14/15 dmg on a 4+ save target. We will see alot of stormcast inning armys in the next tournamnts.

My biggest fear about the new Stormcast is how I am going to be able to look my opponent in face after the game.

[Richelieu]

1 hour ago, Kadanga said:

I think I recall from my Ork days that a 9" charge is around ~80%  success if you have rerolls. 
A quick guess for a 6" charge should be around ~53%

Why do we have a standard that gives rerolls to run and charge when Vexiliors give rerolls to charge innate?

9" charge with rerolls is nowhere near 80% success rate.  It's 48% 

A 6" charge is 72%

A 6" charge with rerolls is 92%

[Richelieu]

1 hour ago, Erdemo86 said:

Can you drop Gavriel with Scions and acitvate his command ability? If yes i think he will be an auto pick.

I think they changed Gavriel's command ability to only work on Hammers of Sigmar units.

[chord]

2 hours ago, Bradipo322 said:

I've seen the whole rules-part of the new battletome.

Barring a few minor buffs everything has been nerfed:

• Lord-Celestant (on foot) to use his command ability has to stand near an enemy unit (3") and the +1 to hit last only for 1 combat phase (this is a common theme)
• Vandus Hammerhand's command ability only lasts 1 turn and works only for units wholly within 12"
• Gavriel Sureheart's starbound blade is now 3+ 3+ instead of 3+ 2+ and his command ability affects units wholly within 12"
• Neave Blacktalon no longer generates extra attacks
• Two Lord-Castellants cant have the same target in a single hero phase for their lantern
• Lord-Relictor (and other priests) can't pray two times in the same hero phase, and both his preyers (healing storm and lighting storm) now have to target someone wholly within 12"
• Lord-Ordinator no longer lets you shoot twice and his command ability now is just a battleshock immunity for units wholly within 18"
• Knight-Heraldor onward to glory now target a unit wholly within 12" and his thunderblast is now targeting a terrain feature wholly within 18" and has his range fixed at 3"
• Gryph-Hounds has changed a lot, loyal companion now has a range of 6" and works also for Lord-Veritant, warning cry now is activated by the setup of enemy reserve units within 10" of Gryph-Hounds and lets friendly Stormcasts wholly within 9" shoot at the unit that has been setup and this can be done only once per phase
• Retributors blast to ashes and other similar abilities now triggers only on unmodified rolls
• All the warscroll battalions have now only one ability and some are just useless (lord of the strom now costs 140 ponts and his ability lets you get 1 CP at the start of your turn on a roll of 4+, but if you ditch the battalion and do not spend the points on other things you are guaranteed 2 CP instead of 1 and an half)

I expected some buffs, not this number of nerfs.

In this edition Stormcast are CP hungry, battalions are just overpriced traps (do not pick them for the +1 CP) and a lot of the old models/units are just weaker.

I am not surprised by these nerfs (as I've stated previously).

The hate for the Stormcast is huge.  GW can't have them be too good, nor can they have the poster army be bad.  All these nerfs align us for being middle of the road/average.  Plus the older models need to be less good to get people to buy all the new ones. 

Like why should the Lord Celestant on foot only be for one combat round?  So strange!    Poor Lord Relictor