AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[AdamR]

3 hours ago, TheKingInYellow said:

As a new player, what other support heroes are useful for a Sacrosanct list?  I grabbed a Castellant already.

Heraldor will give your Evocators a greater threat range.

Vexxilor is good for redeployment.

Relictor also good for redeployment with Translocation, plus he can heal or debuff.

 

[Redbaron]

Hi all, I have a question about Dracothian Guard lists. I know that a lot of factions give you the option to do a ‘cavalry-heavy’ army list, but I never seem to hear much about the Stormcast version of this. I believe the units are very strong, so is it poor battalion options? Or just the economic cost of getting enough models? Or something else? 

[Mark Williams]

1 hour ago, Redbaron said:

Hi all, I have a question about Dracothian Guard lists. I know that a lot of factions give you the option to do a ‘cavalry-heavy’ army list, but I never seem to hear much about the Stormcast version of this. I believe the units are very strong, so is it poor battalion options? Or just the economic cost of getting enough models? Or something else? 

Dracothian based lists are very strong in my experience, and they used to do very well in the meta. However they have been replaced by evocators and sequitors lists. Plus they aren’t quite as good as they used to be.

[Freejack02]

10 hours ago, Redbaron said:

Hi all, I have a question about Dracothian Guard lists. I know that a lot of factions give you the option to do a ‘cavalry-heavy’ army list, but I never seem to hear much about the Stormcast version of this. I believe the units are very strong, so is it poor battalion options? Or just the economic cost of getting enough models? Or something else? 

I know it's an option, but are there factions where "cavalry heavy" army lists actually perform well (I can't think of any)? Dracothians aren't quite as effective as they were as Mark pointed out, the breath attack nerf hurt Fulminators and it's tough to ignore just how good Evocs/Seqs are currently. Still an elite list that can hit hard, but extremely vulnerable to mortal wounds... which just seem to be more prevalent in the game now.

[TheKingInYellow]

Just how strong is the Evocator/Sequitor spam list?  One of our local DoK players is ready to quit over being rolled by it repeatedly.

I just all because I don't want to bring out a list everyone will hate to play against.

[Mark Williams]

4 minutes ago, TheKingInYellow said:

Just how strong is the Evocator/Sequitor spam list?  One of our local DoK players is ready to quit over being rolled by it repeatedly.

I just all because I don't want to bring out a list everyone will hate to play against.

The fact that it’s won a few major tournaments in the UK is evidence enough that it’s one of the strongest lists in the game right now. It’s hard to say why that is exactly as a single unit of them aren’t that great. I only have a unit of each so far, so my experience is limited. But my personal experience is that there isn’t much in the game that doesn’t take more damage than it gives when it encounters those units. They are just extremely points efficient and deal a lot of damage.

[TheKingInYellow]

1 hour ago, Mark Williams said:

The fact that it’s won a few major tournaments in the UK is evidence enough that it’s one of the strongest lists in the game right now. It’s hard to say why that is exactly as a single unit of them aren’t that great. I only have a unit of each so far, so my experience is limited. But my personal experience is that there isn’t much in the game that doesn’t take more damage than it gives when it encounters those units. They are just extremely points efficient and deal a lot of damage.

I'm under the impression that it's fairly easy to get the Sequitors to a 2+ save rerolling 1s.  That's his primary concern, along with Evocators dishing out ridiculous mortal wounds.

[Freejack02]

4 hours ago, TheKingInYellow said:

One of our local DoK players is ready to quit over being rolled by it repeatedly.

Sorry, that gave me a chuckle.

[janenglund]

Is Celestar Ballista better that Reaper Bolt Thrower?

Bolt Thrower's crew might die more easily and it won't get buffs from most of the abilities. But Knight-Azyros buffs it for example. Guaranteed 12 attacks looks terrifying on paper.

[Mark Williams]

2 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Sorry, that gave me a chuckle.

Haha yes I thought about that too. The irony of a DoK player upset about some other army being too strong...

[PJetski]

If you're losing to Evocators/Sequitors, even in a Gavriel list, you really need to learn the basic skills of flank attacks, screening, and riposte.

[PUFNSTUF]

15 hours ago, PJetski said:

If you're losing to Evocators/Sequitors, even in a Gavriel list, you really need to learn the basic skills of flank attacks, screening, and riposte.

As a DOK and new stormcast player, I lost to an evo/seq gav list yesterday using my DOK. I did screen all my heroes, but still lost an entire 30 man witch squad and 4 deepkin eels to 20 charging evocators. What can I do to counter that? (not asking sarcastically, legitimately want to know so I can not lose so much next time)

 

edit: added photos of deployment and the charge of evos for reference

Edited November 25, 2018 by PUFNSTUF

[Mark Williams]

38 minutes ago, PUFNSTUF said:

As a DOK and new stormcast player, I lost to an evo/seq gav list yesterday using my DOK. I did screen all my heroes, but still lost an entire 30 man witch squad and 4 deepkin eels to 20 charging evocators. What can I do to counter that? (not asking sarcastically, legitimately want to know so I can not lose so much next time)

Spread your units out so that they can only charge 1 unit, 2 if they get an exceptional roll. Your deployment should look a bit like a checkerboard where you used only one color squares for deployment; lots of wide spaces between each unit. Make him drop and spend 500 pts to kill 200. After that, either run away, or try to get a fantastic countercharge off.

 I’m not saying it will always work but people who counter my Gavriel list do some variation of that.

[PJetski]

Put disposable units in front of your  good units, and keep your good units within 2.5" of the frontline. When they charge and kill your disposable units, you can pile in 3" with your good units and wipe them out.

The problem with pure melee armies is that they can't kill screens and always lose to a counterattack.

[PUFNSTUF]

3 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

Spread your units out so that they can only charge 1 unit, 2 if they get an exceptional roll. Your deployment should look a bit like a checkerboard where you used only one color squares for deployment; lots of wide spaces between each unit. Make him drop and spend 500 pts to kill 200. After that, either run away, or try to get a fantastic countercharge off.

 I’m not saying it will always work but people who counter my Gavriel list do some variation of that.

Yea sadly the make up of my army didn't really allow for that. My disposable screens of 2 10 man squads wouldn't be able to circle everything. Might just have been a bad match up do to the make up of my army.

[Mark Williams]

1 hour ago, PUFNSTUF said:

Yea sadly the make up of my army didn't really allow for that. My disposable screens of 2 10 man squads wouldn't be able to circle everything. Might just have been a bad match up do to the make up of my army.

I'm not asking you to screen your army. I'm saying, "Spread the hell out."

He's going to kill "something", there's no avoiding that. Just make sure he doesn't kill multiple units when he does. I'm telling you, as someone who uses the Gav bomb, it's very frustrating to fight against someone who does this and understands why it works against me. Once that unit lands on the ground, it's a foot-slogging unit. You can literally just walk away from it, and as DoK, in general you have far better movement.

I'm not saying it will guarantee a win, either. I'm just saying it will make their life much more difficult, and it will create an opportunity for you to turn lemons into lemonade. I saw your army list in the other thread - if I were playing against myself, that's what I would have done against me. I would've spread my army out in little pockets around the board, about 15" apart from every other unit. My most valuable stuff would've been central while everything else was in tight, concentric circles spreading out from that. He would've been forced to pick a point to attack, killed 200-300 points of models, then had the entire rest of my army within counter attack range, or it could have just run in opposite directions, and then you could see who is faster. Maybe he would've caught up to you, maybe not. But he would've had to work for it either way.

The point is, make it hard for him. Don't look for ways to take it in the face successfully.

[PUFNSTUF]

18 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

I'm not asking you to screen your army. I'm saying, "Spread the hell out."

He's going to kill "something", there's no avoiding that. Just make sure he doesn't kill multiple units when he does. I'm telling you, as someone who uses the Gav bomb, it's very frustrating to fight against someone who does this and understands why it works against me. Once that unit lands on the ground, it's a foot-slogging unit. You can literally just walk away from it, and as DoK, in general you have far better movement.

I'm not saying it will guarantee a win, either. I'm just saying it will make their life much more difficult, and it will create an opportunity for you to turn lemons into lemonade. I saw your army list in the other thread - if I were playing against myself, that's what I would have done against me. I would've spread my army out in little pockets around the board, about 15" apart from every other unit. My most valuable stuff would've been central while everything else was in tight, concentric circles spreading out from that. He would've been forced to pick a point to attack, killed 200-300 points of models, then had the entire rest of my army within counter attack range, or it could have just run in opposite directions, and then you could see who is faster. Maybe he would've caught up to you, maybe not. But he would've had to work for it either way.

The point is, make it hard for him. Don't look for ways to take it in the face successfully.

Okay so essentially I should have either let the eels die or let the 30 witch aelves die but not both. I'll have to try that, but regardless based on my list design it seems like an uphill battle. Might have to rework it if its something I will encounter a lot.

[Nos]

1 hour ago, PUFNSTUF said:

Okay so essentially I should have either let the eels die or let the 30 witch aelves die but not both. I'll have to try that, but regardless based on my list design it seems like an uphill battle. Might have to rework it if its something I will encounter a lot.

If your list relies on two deathball units then up against an army of similar it’s just going to come down to best turn and charge dice rolls to see who gets to pull it off. 

The weakness of an elite unit like 20 Evocators is that its expensive (800 points in this instance). It has to do a lot of work to justify that expenditure. But lumping all your points together makes for a lovely target for them to do just that. Not many units are going to survive getting hit by 20 Evocators, regardless of wounds or number of models. So the answer is don’t give them that target. Once they’re down they’re slow and also cumbersome due to how big their footprint is, so play around that. Give them nothing juicy to strike into by lining up the edges with something dispensable  and then just avoid them.

Youre probably thinking “Great-but how do I win if I can’t take my big units?” Well nearly half his army in this scenario is doing nothing of value. It can only hold one objective. Meanwhile the chaff you have to screen can hold multiple objectives leaving you with much more tactical strength, and you always have far more points to bring to bear where it counts. That’s how you do it.

If your question is how do my 30 near naked non rend one wound models beat 20 multi wound multi damage multi mortal wound 3+ armour save wizard soldiers? They don’t. So don’t have that fight. 

[XReN]

3 hours ago, Nos said:

If your question is how do my 30 near naked non rend one wound models beat 20 multi wound multi damage multi mortal wound 3+ armour save wizard soldiers? They don’t. So don’t have that fight.

Thats golden

[PJetski]

Losing a pawn to take down the queen is the best trade you can possibly get.

[frostfire]

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
- General
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
- Mount Trait: Wind Runner
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Lighntning Blast
Gavriel Sureheart (100)
Lord-Castellant (100)

Battleline
10 x Sequitors (240)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields

Units
10 x Evocators (400)
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers
- Allies

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 1500 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 60 / 200
Wounds: 100

Played this list in a recent local game and won the 5th.I lost to a 30 reapers NH list due to underestimating the reapers but won the other two NH with the bladegheists easily .

Pretty much sure that Gav list is the most solid list these days. But it's obvious that it would lose to something like a Heavenswatch /Shadowstrike Seraphon or 90 witches DoK because they have good screening units(witches/skinks) and a powerful counterattack.

More than once I wiped the Slann with a single Gav and Evo charge and just watched a buttload of  sneaky skinks steal the objectives .

Is there a stronger list to win such battles or I just played the Gav wrong ? 

Besides, I think Seraphon is the most powerful army right now which barely has flaws.But it didn't come out to be like this in the recent GTs. That's confusing.

Edited November 27, 2018 by frostfire

[Nos]

1 hour ago, frostfire said:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (240)
- General
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
- Mount Trait: Wind Runner
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Lighntning Blast
Gavriel Sureheart (100)
Lord-Castellant (100)

Battleline
10 x Sequitors (240)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields

Units
10 x Evocators (400)
10 x Skinks (60)
- Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers
- Allies

War Machines
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 1500 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 60 / 200
Wounds: 100

Played this list in a recent local game and won the 5th.I lost to a 30 reapers NH list due to underestimating the reapers but won the other two NH with the bladegheists easily .

Pretty much sure that Gav list is the most solid list these days. But it's obvious that it would lose to something like a Heavenswatch /Shadowstrike Seraphon or 90 witches DoK because they have good screening units(witches/skinks) and a powerful counterattack.

More than once I wiped the Slann with a single Gav and Evo charge and just watched a buttload of  sneaky skinks steal the objectives .

Is there a stronger list to win such battles or I just played the Gav wrong ? 

Besides, I think Seraphon is the most powerful army right now which barely has flaws.But it didn't come out to be like this in the recent GTs. That's confusing.

Did you play Hammers of Sigmar?

[frostfire]

36 minutes ago, Nos said:

Did you play Hammers of Sigmar?

Well，that's for sure

[PJetski]

Gavriel lists are definitely not the only competitive list - they aren't even in the top 5 of what Stormcast can do right now. The problem with the turn 1 charge list is that it has to go all-in on that strategy, but that strategy is really easy to counter. All you have to do is put up a disposable screen around your good units, and then counterattack once he takes out your screen.

Astral Templars ballistas + evocators is probably the best SC list right now because it counters the big monster meta hard (you can kill nagash in one round of shooting!) but it can still deal with melee/horde armies because 10 Evocators backed  by Rend-2 shooting solves almost any problem.

[Nos]

53 minutes ago, frostfire said:

Well，that's for sure

Just curious as to whether the 5+ free Redemptirs thing ever actually happens